WILLIAMS v. FANNIE MAE — Entry #33: MOTION for Summary Judgment by FANNIE MAE, RICHARD LAWCH, GRACE HUERSCHER
Case: WILLIAMS v. FANNIE MAE dcd · 1:05-cv-01483
filed July 28, 2005
What this document is
Docket entry #33 · filed June 21, 2007
MOTION for Summary Judgment by FANNIE MAE, RICHARD LAWCH, GRACE HUERSCHER (Attachments: # (1) Memorandum in Support of Motion for Summary Judgment# (2) Exhibit Exhibit A - Declaration of Grace Huebscher and Deposition Excerpts# (3) Exhibit Exhibit B - 3-28-2007 Williams Dep and Exhibit# (4) Exhibit Exhibit C - Fannie Mae's Interrogatory Responses# (5) Exhibit Exhibit D - Declaration of Richard Lawch# (6) Exhibit Exhibit E - 3-21-2003 Williams Deposition Excerpts# (7) Exhibit Exhibit F - 5-7-2007 Williams Deposition and Exhibit# (8) Exhibit Exhibit G - DC Certificate# (9) Exhibit Exhibit H - Jones Deposition and Exhibits# (10) Exhibit Exhibit I - CAM Amended Complaint# (11) Exhibit Exhibit J - CAM Dismissal Order# (12) Exhibit Exhibit K - Williams Interrogatory Responses# (13) Exhibit Exhibit L - 3-17-2003 Williams Deposition# (14) Exhibit Exhibit M - DC License Document# (15) Exhibit Exhibit N - Draft Complaint# (16) Exhibit Exhibit O - 5-5-2003 Williams Deposition Excerpts# (17) Exhibit Exhibit P - 5-6-2003 Williams Deposition Excerpts# (18) Exhibit Exhibit Q - Westover Declaration# (19) Exhibit Exhibit R - Production Document# (20) Exhibit Exhibit S - Ott Deposition Excerpts# (21) Exhibit Exhibit T - Production Document# (22) Affidavit Declaration of K Grundeman# (23) Statement of Facts Statement of Undisputed Facts# (24) Text of Proposed Order # (25) Certificate of Service)(Goldfrank, Sarah)
Who is involved
- FANNIE MAE
- WILLIAMS
Why we have it
We follow this case because it names a company we track, although that company is not a party:
- Marathon Digital: its subsidiary “Sullivan Company” appears in a filing in this case.
…recruited away by another firm known as John 19 F. Sullivan Company in Philadelphia, 20 Pennsylvania. 21 Q.…
A free copy from the RECAP archive of federal court filings (mirrored at the Internet Archive), retrieved November 07, 2026. Federal court filings are public records.
Document text
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Full text
Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-8 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 1 of 74
EXHIBIT F
Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-8 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 2 of 74
Marialice Williams
Page 132
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
-------------------------x
MARIALICE BATHRUS :
WILLIAMS, :
Plaintiff : Civil Action No.
: 1:05CV01483
v. : Judge John Bates
: PAGES 132 through 312
FEDERAL NATIONAL :
MORTGAGE ASSOCIATION, et :
al., :
Defendants :
-------------------------x VOLUME II
Continued Videotaped Deposition of
Marialice Bathrus Williams
Washington, DC
Monday, May 7, 2007
Reported by: Joanne Liverani, RMR
JOB NO. 180771
Esquire Deposition Services MD - 1-800-539-6398
D.C. - 1-800-441-3376 VA - 1-800-752-8979
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Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-8 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 3 of 74
Marialice Williams
Page 133 Page 135
1 1 -and-
2 2 Fannie Mae
3 3 3900 Wisconsin Avenue, Northwest
4 May 7, 2007 4 Washington, DC 20016
5 10:29 A.m. 5 (202)752-6167
6 6 BY: Jonathan Griffith, Esq.
7 Continued Videotaped Deposition of Marialice Bathrus 7
8 Williams, held at the offices of: 8 Also Present:
9 9 Edward Diggs, Videographer
10 O'Melveny & Myers LLP 10
11 1625 Eye Street 11
12 Washington, DC 20006 12
13 13
14 Pursuant to notice, before Joanne Liverani, RMR, a 14
15 Notary Public of the District of Columbia. 15
16 16
17 17
18 18
19 19
20 20
21 21
22 22
Page 134 Page 136
1 APPEARANCES: 1 CONTENTS
2 EXAMINATION OF THE WITNESS: PAGE
2 For the Plaintiff, MARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS 3 Examination By Ms. Becker 138
3 Law Offices of Harley Jay Daniels 4 MARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS
5 Deposition Exhibits PAGE
4 303 Van Ness Street, Northwest 6 9 Bates stamp FNMA.MBW.008129 through 139
5 Suite W228 8133
7
6 Washington, DC 20008 10 one-page e-mail, Subject: Your 147
7 (202)468-7737 8 January 25, 2007 correspondence
9 11 Bates stamp FNMA.MBW.008139 through 150
8 BY: Harley Jay Daniels, Esq. 8144
9 -and- 10
12 Amended Complaint 185
10 Brian Lederer, Esq. 11
11 3003 Van Ness Street, Northwest 13 Plaintiff's Answers to Defendants' 198
12 Interrogatories
12 Washington, DC 20008 13 14 Statement of Financial Affairs from 248
13 (202)244-1715 the United States Bankruptcy Court,
14 District of Columbia
14 15 15 Notice of Chapter 7 Bankruptcy Case, 254
15 For the Defendants, FEDERAL NATIONAL MORTGAGE Meeting of Creditors & Deadlines,
16 United States Bankruptcy Court,
16 ASSOCIATION, ET AL. District of Columbia (DC)
17 O'Melveny & Myers, LLP 17
16 2001 Form 1040, U.S.Individual Income 262
18 1625 Eye Street, Northwest 18 Tax Return for the witness
19 Washington, DC 20006-4001 19 17 2002 Form 1040, U.S.Individual Income 281
Tax Return for the witness
20 (202)383-5300 20
21 BY: Evelyn L. Becker, Esq. 18 2003 Form 1040, U.S. Individual 298
21 Income Tax Return for the witness
22 Kyra A. Grundeman, Esq. 22
2 (Pages 133 to 136)
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Marialice Williams
Page 137 Page 139
1 VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. 1 here today?
2 Here begins videotape number one, Volume II of the 2 A Yes.
3 deposition of Marialice Bathrus Williams in the 3 Q If at any time during the day you feel
4 matter of Marialice Bathrus Williams versus Federal 4 that you're no longer able to give full and
5 National Mortgage Association, et al., in the 5 truthful testimony, will you please let me know
6 United States District Court for the District of 6 that?
7 Columbia. Case No. 1:05CV01483. 7 A Yes.
8 Today's date is May 7th, 2007. The 8 MS. BECKER: 'd like to hand you
9 time is 10:29:14 a.m. This deposition is being 9 what will be marked by the court reporter as
10 taken at the law firm O'Melveny & Myers at 1625 I 10 Exhibit 9.
11 Street, Northwest, Washington, DC and is made at 11 Thank you.
12 the request of Evelyn Becker of the law offices of 12 (Deposition Exhibit No. 9 - Bates stamp
13 O'Melveny & Myers. 13 FNMA.MBW.008129 through 8133 - was marked for
14 The videographer is Edward Diggs. The 14 identification.)
15 court reporter is Joanne Liverani, here on behalf 15 BY MS. BECKER:
16 of Esquire Deposition Services located at 1020 19th 16 Q Can you identify Exhibit 9?
17 Street, Northwest, Washington, DC. 17 A Exhibit 9 is a subpoena issued by the
18 Would counsel and all present please 18 United States District Court in the matter of Cam
19 identify yourselves and state whom you represent. 19 Financial Services, Incorporated versus General
20 MR. DANIELS: My name is Harley 20 Star National Insurance Company.
21 Daniels. I represent the plaintiff. 21 Q Who's the subpoena directed to?
22 MR. LEDERER: My name is Brian 22 A It is to me.
Page 138 Page 140
1 Lederer. I represent the plaintiff. 1 Q What is the date of the subpoena?
2 MS. BECKER: Evelyn Becker, on 2 A The date is April 24th, 2002.
3 behalf of Fannie Mae, Richard Lawch, and Grace 3 Q Do you recall receiving this subpoena?
4 Huebscher. 4 A Yes.
5 MS. GRUNDEMAN: Kyra Grundeman, 5 Q Did you search for documents in response
6 on behalf of Fannie Mae, Richard Lawch, and Grace 6 to this subpoena?
7 Huebscher. 7 A Yes.
8 MR. GRIFFITH: Jonathan 8 Q Did you produce documents in response to
9 Griffith, on behalf of Fannie Mae. 9 this subpoena?
10 Thereupon, 10 A Yes.
11 MARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS, 11 Q I'd like to turn your attention to
12 the Witness, called for examination by counsel for the 12 Page 8131 of this exhibit, which is the third page
13 Defendants, and, after having been sworn by the notary, 13 in the exhibit.
14 was examined and testified as follows: 14 Under where it says "documents
15 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE DEFENDANTS, FEDERAL 15 requested," can you tell me what the third category
16 NATIONAL MORTGAGE ASSOCIATION, ET AL. 16 of documents requested is?
17 BY MS. BECKER: 17 A All documents that refer to or relate to
18 Q Good morning, Ms. Williams. 18 Fannie Mae.
19 A Good morning. 19 Q Did you search for documents in response
20 Q This is a continuation of your 20 to document request number three?
21 deposition from March 28, 2007. Do you feel that 21 A Yes, I did.
22 you are able to give full and truthful testimony 22 Q Did you produce any documents that you
3 (Pages 137 to 140)
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Marialice Williams
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1 had in your possession relating to document request 1 Q Are you saying that you did less than an
2 number three? 2 exhaustive search in response to a subpoena issued
3 A I believe I did. 3 in the Cam litigation on April 24, 2002?
4 Q What is document request number six? 4 A If you notice -- if you notice the -- it
5 A All documents that constitute, 5 says "April 24, 2002." And it asks that this
6 represent, refer to, or relate to communications 6 information be retrieved by Friday, May 10th,
7 between you and anyone else regarding Fannie Mae. 7 2002. And I am certain that I searched very hard
8 Q Did you search for documents responsive 8 at that time, but I had documents in a -- in a
9 to document request number six? 9 storage area. I had them in boxes in a garage. I
10 A Yes, I did. 10 had them in my office. I'd had a computer crash
11 Q Did you produce any documents that you 11 earlier.
12 had in your possession in response to document 12 So I -- I -- I can tell you that I
13 request number six? 13 searched through what I thought I had, and I
14 A I believe I did. 14 thought I'd given -- I gave whatever I could find
15 Q What is document request number seven? 15 in that time frame.
16 A All documents that constitute, 16 Q What did you search for -- let me
17 represent, refer to, or relate to communications 17 rephrase the question.
18 between you and anyone employed or retained by 18 Where did you search for documents in
19 Fannie Mae following the termination of your 19 response to the subpoena issued to you on -- on
20 employment with Fannie Mae. 20 April 24th, 2002?
21 Q Did you search for documents in response 21 A Oh, I don't -- I -- I can't -- I can't
22 to document request number seven? 22 recall precisely.
Page 142 Page 144
1 A Yes, I did. 1 Q Did you search in all the places that
2 Q Did you produce any documents that you 2 you just identified, including your --
3 had in your possession responsive to document 3 A I believe I did.
4 request number seven? 4 Q I'm sorry, if I could just finish my
5 A I -- I believe I did. I know that I 5 question. It'll make the record a little bit
6 delivered a doc -- a box of documents to Fannie Mae 6 easier.
7 which were never returned to me so I really can't 7 Did you search for documents that you
8 say what was in it and which of these it was 8 had on your computer?
9 specifically related to. So you're asking me about 9 A Yes, I did.
10 these specifics, but I can't tell you whether or 10 Q Did you search for any documents you had
11 not they were marked for these or whatever. 11 in storage?
12 Q Would it be fair to say, though, that to 12 A Yes, I did.
13 the extent you had documents in your possession 13 Q Did you search for any documents you had
14 responsive to any of the documents requested in the 14 in your office?
15 subpoena, dated April 24, 2002, that you produced 15 A Yes.
16 those documents in the Cam litigation? 16 Q And did you produce any responsive
17 A In April of 2002, I had a great deal of 17 documents that you found?
18 mat -- things, boxes and materials in storage. And 18 A I produced a box of documents that I
19 it was a very -- it was a transitional time in my 19 took to 3900 Wisconsin Avenue, Northwest, by the
20 life, and I probably gave whatever I had at the 20 time it was requested. I cannot tell you precisely
21 time that I could put my hands on. I can't tell 21 what was in that box, and those materials were
22 you if it was exhaustive of what I possessed. 22 never returned to me.
4 (Pages 141 to 144)
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Marialice Williams
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1 Q Can you tell me whether you produced any 1 I only now understand how to back up
2 documents that you found that were responsive to 2 that information so you don't lose it.
3 the documents requested in the April 24, 2002 3 Q You testified that you had three
4 subpoena? 4 computer crashes. Can you tell me what the dates
5 A I believe they were all responsive to 5 of those three crashes were?
6 whatever the request was, but I cannot tell you 6 A One was approximately two years ago.
7 specifically what they were. I cannot tell you. I 7 One was approximately nin -- 2000, I believe, and
8 don't have them. 8 then I think one was in 2002 or '3. But I -- I
9 Q Do you have any reason to believe that 9 cannot say that for absolute certainty but those --
10 there were documents in your possession as of April 10 that's what I'm remembering.
11 or May of 2002 responsive to the documents 11 MS. BECKER: I'm handing you
12 requested in the subpoena issued April 24, 2002 12 what I'll ask the court reporter to mark as
13 that you did not produce in the Cam litigation? 13 Exhibit 10.
14 A I think there may have been some records 14 (Deposition Exhibit No. 10 - one-page e-mail,
15 that I may have found later. 15 Subject: Your January 25, 2007
16 Q Do you remember what those records were? 16 correspondence - was marked for
17 A Whatever the balance of materials that I 17 identification.)
18 produced in response to the defendants' request for 18 MS. BECKER: Exhibit 10 is an
19 documents in this particular matter. 19 e-mail sent to me, Kyra Grundeman, and Sarah
20 Q So at some point in time you found 20 Goldfrank.
21 additional documents beyond the documents that you 21 THE WITNESS: Mm-hmm.
22 found when you searched in the April 2002 time 22 BY MS. BECKER:
Page 146 Page 148
1 frame; is that correct? 1 Q Do you recognize this e-mail?
2 A I believe that is correct. 2 A Yes, it says what I just said except it
3 Q And did you produce those documents? 3 says two crashes instead of three.
4 A I produced those documents in response 4 Q Does this e-mail refresh your
5 to defendants' request for documents in this 5 recollection as to the date of the -- of two of the
6 matter. 6 crashes?
7 Q Between the two productions that you 7 A Yes, 2004 and 2001, I think I said that
8 made to Fannie Mae, did you produce all documents 8 pretty much. Close to that.
9 in your possession responsive to the April 24, 2002 9 Q So 2004 and 2001 are -- are two of the
10 subpoena that you had in your possession as of 10 accurate dates; is that correct?
11 April or May of 2002? 11 A I believe they are.
12 A No. Well, yes and no. 12 Q What was the third crash?
13 Yes, I produced what I had. But there 13 A There may only have been two. I
14 were many other e-mails, telephone records or 14 think -- I think there were two. 2001 and 2004. I
15 whatever that I was not able to retrieve at two 15 think that's correct. I did have a laptop that
16 different points in which -- actually, I've had 16 crashed but that was not as serious.
17 three computer crashes in the last ten years, but 17 Q Did you keep documents on your laptop
18 two of them during the time that I was working on 18 relating to Fannie Mae?
19 this Fannie Mae product. So there would be e-mails 19 A Yes.
20 I would not be able to retrieve, as well as 20 Q When did your laptop crash?
21 documents that I would not be able to retrieve 21 A Let's see. Oh, gosh, actually there
22 because they were only on that particular computer. 22 were two com -- two crashes. One was last year,
5 (Pages 145 to 148)
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Marialice Williams
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1 which would be 2006. And one would be, I think, 1 question --
2 around 2003 or '4. Yes -- 2 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, are you
3 Q What documents -- 3 waiting for me?
4 A -- 2004. 4 BY MS. BECKER:
5 Q What documents relating to Fannie Mae 5 Q Can you identify Exhibit 11?
6 were stored on your laptop? 6 A It's a subpoena for me to be deposed in
7 A I -- I can't say precisely but whatever 7 the Fannie Mae -- excuse me, in the Cam Financial
8 e-mails or materials that I had prepared for 8 Services and GenStar Insurance matter.
9 presentations to prospective insurance companies or 9 Q Did a deposition in fact take place on
10 to various and large cross-section of potential 10 March 17, 2003?
11 clients. And there would've been newsletters that 11 A I don't recall, but if that's the date
12 I did explaining what type of structure we were 12 that's in here, it must have been the correct date.
13 looking at for credit enhancement and that type of 13 Q Were you asked to produce documents in
14 thing. 14 connection with that deposition?
15 Q In response to the subpoena issued 15 A I didn't remember that I was, but I
16 April 24, 2002, did you search for documents on 16 guess I was. Says here you as well as documents.
17 your laptop? 17 Right. That's what it says.
18 A I believe I did. 18 Q Would you have searched for documents
19 Q Did you produce any documents responsive 19 responsive to document -- documents requested in
20 to the subpoena of April 24, 2002, that were on 20 the subpoena dated January 6th, 2003?
21 your laptop, in the Cam litigation? 21 A I really don't remember.
22 A I -- I suspect those were generally 22 Q Do you have any reason to believe that
Page 150 Page 152
1 duplicates of whatever was on my larger computer. 1 you didn't search for documents responsive to this
2 I generally didn't print from my laptop. I used it 2 subpoena?
3 largely for traveling. 3 A I'm sure I did. I just don't recall.
4 Q Between the documents on your laptop and 4 Q I'd like to direct your attention to
5 the documents on your main computer, would you have 5 Page 8142, which is Page 4 of Exhibit 11.
6 produced any documents relating to the April 24, 6 Do you see under number eight where it
7 2002 subpoena that were stored on either of those 7 defines the term "MCRI"?
8 computers? 8 A Yes.
9 A Oh, I'm sure that I would've used both 9 Q How does this subpoena define MCRI?
10 of those sources to look for documents in response 10 A It says: Multifamily credit risk
11 to the sus -- subpoena. 11 insurance, multifamily collateral replacement
12 Q And you would've produced any that you 12 insurance or similar devices.
13 had in your possession; is that correct? 13 I know what MCRI is 'cause I created it.
14 A I would have produced what I had on 14 Q Can you explain to me what MCRI is?
15 those two computers at that time. 15 A Certainly. It is a form of credit
16 MS. BECKER: I'd like to hand 16 enhancement which enables a -- an -- a company that
17 you what I will ask the court reporter to mark as 17 is selling a portfolio of mortgage loans to Fannie
18 Exhibit 11. 18 Mae in exchange for -- well, excuse me, as
19 (Deposition Exhibit No. 11 - Bates stamp 19 exchanging mortgage loans for mortgage-backed
20 FNMA.MBW.008139 through 8144 - was marked for 20 securities. And in those transactions, Fannie Mae
21 identification.) 21 generally requires, once those loans are reviewed
22 MR. DANIELS: Is there a 22 and those properties are reviewed, a certain level
6 (Pages 149 to 152)
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Marialice Williams
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1 of -- of credit risk is assessed, not just credit 1 in those transactions where affordable housing
2 risk, other real estate risk and other risk is 2 deals were being done with market -- with tax
3 assessed against that portfolio. And once it is 3 credits. So we were going to use it on everything,
4 determined how much that risk is, there's a certain 4 including the May 2001 DUS proposal.
5 percentage with respect to the actual amount of the 5 Q I'd like to ask you to turn to the next
6 mortgage loans themselves which must be set aside 6 page of the document, under document request number
7 traditionally to cover the losses on those loans 7 seven. Can you identify document request number
8 during the lifetime of those mortgage-backed 8 seven?
9 securities. 9 A All documents that refer to or relate to
10 What I created was, for the first time 10 any type of mortgage collateral insurance,
11 in the multifamily securitization marketplace, as I 11 including but not limited to, MCRI, environmental
12 had done with other things I had created for Fannie 12 hazard insurance, single family credit risk
13 Mae, in this particular instance what I did was I 13 insurance, single family collateral replacement
14 was able to take the responsibility for the loss 14 insurance, or captive insurance.
15 coverage outside of the pool of mortgages so that 15 Q As you sit here today do you believe
16 when Fannie Mae actually issued the securities, all 16 that you searched for documents in response to
17 of the securities were issued at AAA plus, and the 17 document request number seven in connection with
18 credit enhancement or the loss coverage piece was 18 the January 6, 2003 subpoena?
19 an independent insurance policy, which was designed 19 A I believe I did look for information on
20 to cover any losses on those loans during the 20 all of those things.
21 lifetime of that mortgage-backed security. 21 Q Would you have produced those documents
22 And so that's why we called it 22 if you had them in your possession?
Page 154 Page 156
1 "multifamily," meaning pools of multifamily 1 A Whatever was in my possession I would
2 mortgage loans, credit risk insurance, because it 2 have produced. Which was not everything I did,
3 was in fact insuring against the losses that would 3 just what I had in my possession.
4 be associated with any of those mortgage loans 4 Q What would you have done that you did
5 during the lifetime of the security, which would be 5 not have in your possession?
6 occasioned -- those losses would be occasioned by 6 A As I stated earlier in this deposition,
7 the parameters of what's described within the 7 there were considerable number of e-mails,
8 Fannie Mae credit model, which I had a fortunate 8 telephone calls I would not have had in my
9 opportunity to have a great deal of input on. 9 possession. There would even have been strategy
10 Q You'll recall in your last deposition we 10 papers and other things which would have been
11 talked about your May 2001 proposal. Do you -- do 11 created and put in the computer, which I would not
12 you remember that? 12 necessarily have had access to. And again, I think
13 A Yes, we did talk about that. That was a 13 there were a number of places in storage where I
14 DUS-related proposal. 14 may not have seen that there were boxes that may
15 Q Does MCRI, as you've described it, 15 have related to Fannie Mae.
16 relate to your May 2001 proposal? 16 So there -- there are any number of ways
17 A MCRI relates to every single type of 17 in which whatever I gave in response to this may
18 proposal that I took to Fannie Mae, including the 18 not have been an exhaustive, although I attempted
19 DUS proposal, affordable housing, even the 19 to locate everything, it may not have been as
20 insurance of environmental losses; it ran the whole 20 exhaustive as it might have been.
21 gamut, even in the terms of their equity program, 21 Q With respect to the e-mails and strategy
22 substituting an insurance policy rather than cash 22 papers that you believe you may have had, is the
7 (Pages 153 to 156)
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Marialice Williams
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1 reason that you would not have had those in your 1 so forth, and it was packed to the rafters.
2 possession relating to the computer crashes that 2 My mother died. I had all of her things
3 you've already testified about? 3 that I had moved in there. It was just very
4 A Computer crashes, yes, and loss of 4 difficult to see what was in that garage and to
5 storage documents. I had a storage bin on U Street 5 really get -- find one box.
6 which -- and I was doing a lot of traveling at the 6 Because of that situation, records were
7 time because of personal reasons and -- to help out 7 ruined, a -- a $10,000 rug of my mother's was
8 someone in my family, and somehow in there my 8 ruined. All kinds of things happened in that
9 possessions were taken into custody by the storage 9 garage, but that was the deterioration that
10 people and sold at some auction which I did not 10 occurred in that garage.
11 know anything about. And I was unable to retrieve 11 Okay. So then I moved from there into
12 anything from that. 12 where I'm moving -- where I'm living now, and I
13 Q When were your possessions taken from 13 store boxes in a storage area. Meanwhile, it's
14 the storage unit? 14 very difficult to keep up with what's -- so what
15 A In 2006, I believe it was. Or maybe it 15 you keep close to you is what you're work --
16 was 2005. August of 2005 or 2006, early June -- 16 working on currently, which is a great deal of
17 January, February, March, in that area. 17 what -- is what I produced when it was time to
18 Q So those documents in your storage unit 18 respond to defendants' request for documents in
19 on U Street would have been there in the 2002 and 19 this case.
20 2003 time frames; is that correct? 20 I did have an opportunity then to pull a
21 A Some of them might have been. Well, 21 lot of things out that I had not seen before. But
22 I'll go into great detail so you will understand 22 then I also did lose that storage area. So that's
Page 158 Page 160
1 the complexity of my storage situation. 1 the -- the story of my storage and boxes, and
2 When I left Fannie Mae in 1998, I took 2 that's as well as I can put it.
3 an office at the Watergate office building. I 3 Q In response to the 2002 and 2003
4 began working in earnest to do a project with 4 subpoenas, did you search the storage area?
5 Fannie Mae and kept documents and everything in 5 A Yes, I did.
6 that office for some length of time. In 2001, 6 Q And did you produce any documents that
7 right after 9/11, the -- I remember having a 7 were in the storage area?
8 computer crash, then 2001, a number of documents 8 A I don't recall.
9 that we might have ordinarily stored, due to the 9 Q Do you have any reason to believe you
10 fact that we were all aware that the insurance 10 didn't produce the documents that were in the
11 market had dried up a number of things that I was 11 storage area?
12 working on, we disposed of at the time we moved out 12 A No, I don't. No.
13 of the office building at the Watergate. 13 Q As far as e-mails that you would've had
14 When I was living at the Watergate as 14 with Fannie Mae, would those have been generally
15 well, during that time, I had a storage area, 15 kept on your computers?
16 because I was living in a co-op, and I had moved 16 A Yes.
17 out of a house. 17 Q Is the only reason that you would not
18 So I had huge numbers of boxes at that 18 have had those e-mails in your possession based on
19 storage area. I had boxes in my office. I had -- 19 the computer crashes that you've already described?
20 then I -- then I moved and I tried to consolidate 20 A Yes.
21 in -- back into a house and had a huge garage there 21 Q When did you move out of the Watergate?
22 in which I put a great deal of papers and boxes and 22 A I believe it was -- I have -- I -- I
8 (Pages 157 to 160)
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Marialice Williams
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1 don't have it with me. Either 2001 or 2002. I 1 Watergate?
2 believe it was 2001. 2 A Yes, I did.
3 Q Do you remember when in 2001? 3 Q Did you have a home in the Watergate?
4 A I filed bankruptcy. I had to sell my 4 A Yes, I did.
5 property and pay off my business debts I had 5 Q Did you vacate both the -- both the home
6 acquired from trying to do business with Fannie 6 and the office at the same time?
7 Mae. I think it was around 2000 -- 2001 or 2002. 7 A Yes, I did.
8 I just cannot remember precisely when it 8 Q Do you recall when the Cam litigation
9 was. I just can't. 9 was filed?
10 Q How did -- 10 A No, I don't.
11 A It's on -- should be on my tax records, 11 Q Do you have any recollection of when you
12 I think. It should be on my forms I gave to 12 first knew about the Cam litigation?
13 somebody here. 13 A Let's see. It would have to have been
14 Q How does the timing of your bankruptcy 14 prior to May -- April 24th, 2002.
15 relate to when you moved out of the Watergate? 15 Q Was the subpoena that you received in
16 A Well, I could no longer afford to live 16 the Cam litigation the first that you had heard of
17 there. I could no longer afford to have an office 17 the Cam litigation?
18 in the Watergate. I didn't get any of the business 18 A Of the litigation, yes.
19 I thought I was going to get from Fannie Mae, and 19 Q What was your involvement in the Cam
20 so I had to move. 20 litigation?
21 Q Did you move before or after you filed 21 A I didn't have any involvement in the Cam
22 bankruptcy? 22 litigation except as a -- as a person who was
Page 162 Page 164
1 A I moved after I filed bankruptcy. 1 deposed because I probably had more information
2 Q How long after? 2 about the product that was under -- in question
3 A No. I moved before I filed bankruptcy. 3 than anyone else. It was five, I think, five or
4 I think I moved in 2001 and filed bankruptcy in 4 six or seven very grueling days.
5 2002. I spent the -- the balance of my retirement 5 Q Did anyone from Fannie Mae ever contact
6 funds from Fannie Mae just eking out a living 6 you about the Cam litigation?
7 through the next year and then filed bankruptcy. 7 A No. Yes -- well, Fannie Mae's
8 When I sold my unit at the Watergate, I 8 representative, yes.
9 had to pay off a $200,000 business debt I had 9 Q Who was that?
10 acquired which became -- meant that I virtually had 10 A His name was Gerard Wimberly.
11 no -- nothing left on the sale because I had to 11 Q And Mr. Wimberly is with the McGlinchey
12 split it with my mother who was the joint owner of 12 Stafford firm; is that correct?
13 the apartment with me. 13 A Correct.
14 Q Did you move out of the Watergate after 14 Q What was the reason that Mr. Wimberly
15 September 11, 2001? 15 contacted you, as you recall?
16 A Yes. I believe so. 16 A He contacted me prior to serving me with
17 Q Was it shortly thereafter or -- 17 any documentation, having me served, about
18 A I just don't recall and I -- I would 18 defending Fannie Mae -- Fannie Mae's position
19 like to tell you. I'm trying to think if I have 19 against Bob Jones from Cam Financial.
20 anything in my possession that would let me know. 20 Q Was he asking for your cooperation in
21 I just don't recall when it was. 21 defending Fannie Mae's position against Bob Jones?
22 Q Did you have office space in the 22 A Yes.
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1 Q What was your response? 1 whatever it took to try to keep Bob Jones from
2 A My attorney at the time, Julia Williams, 2 getting the business he might have deserved.
3 spoke to him and I -- I'm not certain exactly what 3 Q Why would Mr. Lawch have done that, in
4 she said, but I believe she told him that -- I 4 your view?
5 don't remember what she told him. 5 A Because he didn't like Bob Jones and he
6 Q Were you willing to cooperate in 6 didn't -- and I think Richard was very torn because
7 defending Fannie Mae's position against Bob Jones? 7 he had pad -- virtually paid no attention to the
8 A I did not believe that Fannie Mae 8 development of this entire product, and then once
9 treated Bob Jones in a fair manner based on my 9 it turned out that it was something really good, he
10 personal involvement in Bob Jones's development of 10 was very reluctant not to try to take, you know,
11 MCRI along with me. 11 credit for it. He wanted the -- you know, to be
12 Q Did you make that known to Fannie Mae? 12 the -- the lead person, but he didn't have any
13 A I made that known to Fannie Mae before I 13 knowledge about how it was done. So he basically
14 left Fannie Mae because I had been asked about the 14 just went at the whole thing all wrong, but --
15 exact same issue before I left, as well as being 15 MR. DANIELS: Speak up.
16 asked about it in the deposition. 16 THE WITNESS: Mm?
17 Q Do you remember the time frame in which 17 MR. DANIELS: Speak up. You
18 you were contacted by Mr. Wimberly? 18 were trailing off in your answer. Please.
19 A It was just prior to this subpoena being 19 THE WITNESS: Yes, he -- Richard
20 issued, I believe. 20 was -- it was common knowledge how Richard felt
21 Q So that would've been in the winter or 21 about Cam, and it was pretty common knowledge how
22 early spring of 2002? 22 he felt about me generally, too. But in this --
Page 166 Page 168
1 A Correct. 1 that instance, I was working there and since I had
2 Q And did you make it known to Fannie Mae 2 been consistently producing products that enabled
3 that you were not willing to cooperate in -- 3 Fannie Mae to compete effectively in the secondary
4 A I told Fannie Mae I would cooperate with 4 marketplace, Richard wasn't really able to do
5 them as -- as it was required by me of the law. I 5 anything more than simply limit my compensation,
6 believe that's what we said, and I did cooperate. 6 et cetera.
7 Q Do you remember whether Fannie Mae 7 So -- but he did call Bob Jones several
8 wanted to meet with you? 8 times a redneck, quite a few times. He just really
9 A Yes. 9 had great contempt for him.
10 Q Did you meet with Fannie Mae? 10 BY MS. BECKER:
11 A No. 11 Q You said it was common knowledge how he
12 Q Why not? 12 felt about you?
13 A Because they made it clear that, you 13 A Mm-hmm.
14 know, that -- you know, they didn't have anything 14 Q And how did he feel about you?
15 to offer me. They weren't -- still weren't 15 A Yes.
16 attempting to, you know, do the right thing with 16 Richard and I did not have a good
17 me, so I didn't see what there was to -- to gain 17 relationship after a time at Fannie Mae. He was
18 except to be honest and truthful about what I 18 fond of telling people that I had withheld
19 remembered and what I knew. And I knew that Fannie 19 information from him when he arrived, and I never
20 Mae had acted in a certain manner toward Bob Jones, 20 understood what he meant. But I did unfortunately
21 and I knew that they were going to -- as long as 21 meet one of his prior employers and I mentioned to
22 Richard Lawch was in charge, he was going to do 22 him that I didn't, and from that day forward,
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1 Richard was very unkind to me. 1 that information to anyone else.
2 Q And that was while you were at -- 2 Q Was --
3 working at Fannie Mae? 3 A It was a corporate environment.
4 A Yes. 4 Q Who's the prior employer that you're
5 But I always thought he respected my 5 referring to?
6 ability. But he didn't really. 6 A A law firm that he worked for.
7 Q At what point did you believe that he 7 Q What's the name of the law firm?
8 respected your ability? 8 A I don't recall the name of it.
9 A I believe he respected my ability when I 9 Q When did Mr. Lawch become aware that you
10 was able to convince Rob Levin, who was at that 10 were aware of his relationship with this law firm?
11 time the -- responsible for the business side of 11 A I spoke at a -- at a -- an American Bar
12 Fannie Mae, when I convinced him to assign someone 12 Association conference to a session that was -- a
13 from the REMIC office to the multifamily division 13 panel that was put together by an African-American
14 so that we could jointly have Fannie Mae issue the 14 man who was attempting to do business at Fannie Mae
15 first senior subordinate securities ever. And at 15 at the time in the affordable housing area. And
16 that time, I -- Richard was still relatively new, 16 while I was at that conference, I virtually ran
17 and he was a little more cooperative. And product 17 into this other person whom I had known when he was
18 development at Fannie Mae takes a very long time, 18 a freshman at Harvard. And he asked me what I was
19 and we were on a very fast track and we were able 19 doing and I told him I'm -- was working at Fannie
20 to do it and able to accomplish that particular 20 Mae and that I had a new vice president and -- gave
21 task. 21 him his name. And he said, oh, he used to work for
22 And then over time, I think, it -- the 22 me.
Page 170 Page 172
1 personal side of the relationship, based on, you 1 And when I left that conference and went
2 know, your typical dog-eat-dog kind of environment, 2 back to my office, I said to Richard, oh, I met,
3 I had several people working for me and Richard 3 you know, someone you used to work for. And that's
4 managed to change that working relationship, and 4 when I think things started to go downhill.
5 those people then began to report directly to 5 Q Who was this person?
6 Richard and that was fine, you know. I still -- I 6 A Chuck Hamilton.
7 still created and -- and developed new products for 7 Q And when was the conference?
8 Fannie Mae to make a lot more money, so I was happy 8 A Oh, I really -- sometime after Richard
9 to be able to do that and to bring in the -- the 9 arrived at Fannie Mae, and I can't really recall
10 kind of product I thought Fannie Mae ought to be 10 when that was. Let's see.
11 securitizing. 11 I can't recall when that was.
12 Q Do you believe that Mr. Lawch's view of 12 Q Was this while you were still working at
13 you changed at some point in time? 13 Fannie Mae?
14 A I think it changed at some point in 14 A It was -- oh, absolutely. Yes.
15 time, and I think it was exactly when I mentioned 15 Q Did Mr. Hamilton express to you
16 it; when he was made aware that I knew his prior 16 something negative about Mr. Lawch?
17 employer, and he knew if I knew his prior employer, 17 A Yes.
18 what his prior employer was going to say about him. 18 Q What was that?
19 And therefore I think he felt somewhat concerned 19 A I guess I could summarize it by saying
20 that I would know that information. And I'm 20 he didn't think he was a very good lawyer.
21 certain he would be concerned like everyone else 21 Q Did he express anything else negative
22 would in their job whether or not I would impart 22 about Mr. Lawch?
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1 A No. Just that he was let go by that 1 town, something important is going to happen at the
2 comp -- by that firm. 2 conference.
3 Q Why did you tell Mr. Lawch about your 3 I happen to run into Deborah McKinnon,
4 meeting with Mr. Hamilton? 4 and Deborah was a director also and responsible in
5 A Because I had been to a conference that 5 the multifamily division for the disposal of
6 Fannie Mae had authorized me to go to, and knowing 6 properties. And I said to Deborah I was excited
7 how small the world is, it would've gotten back to 7 that I was going out of town, and she said you
8 Richard one way or the other that I had met Chuck, 8 can't go out of town, and I said why not. And she
9 so I decided to tell him that I met Chuck. He was 9 said because you're getting an award for your MCRI
10 very familiar with Richard, his family -- he knew 10 product. I said, oh, gee, I just told Richard I
11 his wife, you know. It wasn't a casual 11 was leaving town.
12 relationship. 12 And so when I got to the -- I -- I did
13 Q Did Mr. Lawch have any reaction to being 13 go to the ceremony, and as Bob Jones stated in his
14 told about your meeting with Mr. Hamilton? 14 deposition and as everyone at Fannie Mae will tell
15 A Not initially, no. 15 you, I pretty much created that product by myself,
16 Q Did he have a reaction at some point 16 with a lot of people's help, but I clearly was the
17 later? 17 person who worked on it on a day-to-day basis. And
18 A I believe he did. 18 Mr. Lawch arranged it so that I would not get an
19 Q What was that reaction? 19 individual award, which would probably have been
20 A I believe he simply started to treat me 20 about $10,000. Instead, he made it a team award.
21 in a less respectful manner. 21 And when I rose to get the team award when it was
22 Q When did that begin? 22 announced, the people at my table yelled in unison,
Page 174 Page 176
1 A After I told him about Chuck Hamilton. 1 what team? Which I found rather interesting that I
2 And I don't recall, as I said, the year that that 2 wasn't the only person who took offense that -- but
3 occurred, but it was after the time that Mr. Lawch 3 I did not mention anything to Mr. Lawch about it,
4 came to Fannie Mae and before I left there in 1998. 4 but I did get my $1,500 reward.
5 And I was in the multifamily division from 1990 5 And then Mr. Lawch began to give me
6 until 1998. 6 reviews that were not reflective of my productivity
7 Q Did Mr. Lawch's treatment of you in a 7 at Fannie Mae. And I don't think there's anyone at
8 less respectful manner start while you were still 8 Fannie Mae who knew my productivity who would agree
9 working at Fannie Mae? 9 with Mr. Lawch's assessment. He virtually said I
10 A Yes. 10 could not write. That I thought more of myself
11 Q Can you describe what he did to treat 11 than anyone else. And such mean and unbecoming
12 you in a less respectful manner? 12 things of a vice president of Fannie Mae as I've
13 A Yes. The -- probably the biggest thing, 13 ever seen. And this was all while I was producing
14 which was really very hurtful, was that there was 14 products that were enabling Fannie Mae to play a
15 no question when I created MCRI that I was going to 15 substantial role in the secondary market in a
16 get some kind of award. 16 productive and competitive way.
17 Well, at the sales and marketing 17 So it just became a personal matter.
18 conference at Fannie Mae, it's a really big deal 18 And I loved my job so much at Fannie Mae, I was not
19 when you get an award there. Number one, I was 19 going to let his feelings and his issues affect me
20 getting ready to go out of town the particular 20 and my productivity. And I would not have left
21 weekend of that conference and Mr. Lawch was aware 21 there had I not thought Fannie Mae was not going to
22 of that. He did not say to me, don't go out of 22 ultimately live up to her commitment to me to give
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1 me the business that I had developed. 1 A I don't think I was the only
2 Q Why do you think that Mr. Lawch turned 2 African-American person at Fannie Mae who felt that
3 against you and decided to make your business 3 he had an issue with African-American people. We
4 relationship with him personal? 4 knew -- we knew, for example, that certain
5 A I believe he's human, like any other 5 attitudes had to exist within his home, because his
6 person, and I believe that personal embarrassment 6 children expressed very interesting thoughts about
7 that he may have felt at someone actually knowing 7 black people and slaves and so forth. And if you
8 his history may have caused him to do whatever he 8 ask Betty Dance, I'm sure she'll give you the whole
9 did. 9 litany on what it was like being there with him and
10 Q Do you believe that he treated you 10 his children being so disrespectful. And there --
11 differently while you were at Fannie Mae based on 11 and I would say any other black person that was
12 your race? 12 there at the time could tell you.
13 A Yes. 13 Q Did you talk to other African-Americans
14 Q And what's that based on? 14 while you were at Fannie Mae about Mr. Lawch?
15 A That's based on, number one, what he did 15 A I talked to a lot of African-Americans
16 about my award; number two, the way that he treated 16 and a lot of women who gravitated to my office
17 me with respect to my supervisory responsibilities; 17 frequently about EEO issues. And my recommendation
18 number three, when he -- Mr. -- Mr. Lawch, for 18 was always to people, talk to the person that
19 example, was such a poor manager that he had -- was 19 you're involved in the situation with because you
20 required to go to classes that involved him 20 have to remember that if you file an EEO complaint,
21 becoming more sensitive to employees and with 21 you better be sure you're going to win it because
22 respect to women and racial issues. 22 otherwise your career is going to be over here.
Page 178 Page 180
1 And he -- if -- if somebody's not doing 1 And that had been proven time and time again.
2 well in a position, if I wasn't doing well as a 2 And it was not easy for
3 supervisor, I would've thought I should've been 3 African-Americans and women in the levels at Fannie
4 given the same courtesy as everybody else; well, 4 Mae where I was to survive unless you had a mentor
5 give me some training that would make me a better 5 who was at a much higher level who was willing to
6 one, not just, you know, invite my staff into your 6 help you and -- and push your career along. It did
7 office and pal around with them and play golf in 7 not matter whether you were productive, smart,
8 your office, putt in your office with them. 8 intelligent or anything. It only mattered who your
9 And -- you know, and I mean it was a 9 mentor was and if you had someone to -- to champion
10 real -- and I was the one excluded from the 10 your cause.
11 knowledge of whatever was going on in the office. 11 Q Do you feel that you had a mentor or
12 He excluded me from discussions about the business, 12 someone to champion your cause at Fannie Mae?
13 and I was the director for capital markets. And he 13 A No. At Fannie Mae the tasks were given
14 had his little cronies and his pets and that's the 14 out for assignments that could either make or break
15 way it worked, and that's the way it works in 15 your career. And there was no question who was
16 corporate America and there's nothing anybody can 16 getting the good assignments.
17 do about that. But he definitely had a preference 17 I made my mark at Fannie Mae because I
18 for certain people, and they certainly weren't 18 created the concepts that I developed, and
19 black. 19 therefore was fortunate enough to -- to have some
20 Q Why do you attribute this to the race of 20 impact on -- in -- in the sense of change at Fannie
21 the people that he was dealing with as opposed to 21 Mae. But I was not given the assignments that --
22 him simply being a poor manager? 22 that were the achievements of my career, from day
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1 one, including creating the first data -- database 1 certainly lured me by saying they were going to put
2 that gave you consistent information on pools of 2 me on their board, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera,
3 multifamily mortgages. I mean that was my -- you 3 but you know, it wasn't going to matter one way or
4 know, I created that with $65,000. Show me 4 the other. I knew that there was a great deal more
5 anybody's system that can be done for that price 5 to be done in the marketplace on this product, and
6 now. Took them $3 million to upgrade it. 6 that I had the capability of doing it and would do
7 So I know I had to have some kind of -- 7 it with Cam or with ever -- whomever else had the
8 of capacity there. But I did not get assignments 8 ability to finance the -- the amount of time that
9 because I was get -- they were handed to me. I 9 it would take to do the product development.
10 made my way at Fannie Mae. 10 Q Did you file an internal complaint of
11 Q Why did you leave Fannie Mae? 11 discrimination while you were at Fannie Mae?
12 A I left Fannie Mae because I had a long 12 A I certainly did not.
13 conversation with Lou Hoyes, and told him that I 13 Q Why not?
14 was so happy that we had issued the first 14 A Because I had watched what happened to
15 securities based on this MCRI concept, and that it 15 people who did file complaints. Been there for a
16 was going to make a huge difference for the 16 long time.
17 communities I was concerned about, which were the 17 Q Did you tell anybody at Fannie Mae that
18 inner cities, or the rural areas where mortgages 18 you believed that Mr. Lawch treated you differently
19 tended to be smaller and less -- less than standard 19 based on your race?
20 according to Fannie Mae's underwriting, and that I 20 A Certainly.
21 thought that I would take that opportunity, become 21 Q Did you tell anybody at Fannie Mae that?
22 an insurance broker and do the MCRI business. And 22 A Certainly.
Page 182 Page 184
1 he assured me that, you know, that would not be an 1 Q Who did you tell at Fannie Mae?
2 issue, that we would continue to work together. 2 A I had that conversation frequently with
3 And that is why I left Fannie Mae. 3 one of the vice president -- one of the -- I can't
4 And he specifically said to me, are you 4 remember what level he was. In credit policy there
5 leaving Fannie Mae for something or are you leaving 5 were quite a few people that I was very close to
6 because you don't want to be here? And he then 6 there. I also discussed it with people within the
7 also said to me, if you do want to stay here, I can 7 multifamily division who were African-American.
8 change your supervisory person to be Wendell Johns 8 I don't believe I mentioned it to anyone
9 tomorrow. I can do that. To which I said to him, 9 white, but -- yes, I did, Stuart Levy. Who was
10 I have been trying to explain to you about Richard 10 also in credit policy.
11 Lawch for a long time. I'm sorry that you waited 11 Q Who's the most senior person that you
12 until this moment, but my mind's made up. I have 12 told at Fannie Mae?
13 the opportunities. I really want to go out and see 13 A I think I told vice president for
14 that this product gets out into the marketplace, 14 diversity, Maria Johnson.
15 that Fannie Mae can start to do the kind of 15 Q What was Ms. Johnson's reaction?
16 affordable housing program on the capital markets 16 A Same as mine; well, don't file a
17 side that I felt it should be doing according to 17 complaint because that's the end of your career.
18 its charter. And so I left. 18 Q Were those Ms. Johnson's exact words?
19 Q Did you leave understanding you would 19 A Or something to that effect, yes. I've
20 have a position with Cam Financial? 20 known her a long time. I introduced her to Rob
21 A I wasn't certain that I was going to 21 Levin. He hired her because I introduced him to
22 have a position with Cam Financial. They had 22 her.
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1 Q When did you have this conversation with 1 A Yes, it is.
2 Ms. Johnson? 2 Q And your understanding is this is the
3 A I don't recall. Probably all the way 3 operative complaint in the case; is that correct?
4 through 'til 1998 when I left. From the time she 4 A Correct.
5 arrived until the time I left. 5 Q I'd like to ask you to look at
6 MS. BECKER: Can we go off the 6 Paragraph 19 of the complaint on Page 7.
7 record for a few minutes. 7 A Mm-hmm.
8 VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record at 8 Q Can you read that?
9 11:38:36. 9 A In June 1998 Plaintiff Williams left the
10 (Thereupon, a recess was taken.) 10 employment of Fannie Mae pursuant to a negotiated
11 VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record at 11 settlement agreement which ostensibly resolved
12 11:54:19. 12 issues of alleged unlawful discrimination and
13 BY MS. BECKER: 13 retaliation on the bases of race and sex charges
14 Q I'm handing you what will be marked as 14 which have been stated by Plaintiff Williams prior
15 Exhibit 12. 15 to her departure from Fannie Mae employment in
16 (Deposition Exhibit No. 12 - Amended 16 which constituted protected activities as defined
17 Complaint - was marked for identification.) 17 by the civil rights laws of the United States.
18 MR. DANIELS: May I take up a 18 Q Did you make allegations of unlawful
19 preliminary matter before you continue your 19 discrimination and retaliation on the basis of race
20 questioning? Today we handed you certain copies 20 and sex prior to leaving Fannie Mae?
21 of -- of Ms. Williams' tax records, and I want to 21 A Yes, I did.
22 be certain that we are giving them to you under a 22 Q Who did you make those allegations to?
Page 186 Page 188
1 confidentiality agreement. Will they be used only 1 A I made them to Tom Nieds (ph), I believe
2 in connection with this litigation and not 2 was his name, who was the first person who was
3 shared -- the same confidentiality agreement we 3 charged with working out my settlement agreement
4 signed when we -- when you gave us your documents? 4 for my departure from Fannie Mae.
5 MS. BECKER: I'm going to need 5 Q Who is Tom Nieds?
6 to consult with my client before we make a final 6 A That's a good question. I don't really
7 decision on that. We will -- we'll discuss that 7 know who he is, what -- where he came from or what
8 later in the deposition before we take up those 8 his claim to fame is. He certainly didn't ever do
9 records. 9 anything I ever thought was particularly
10 MR. DANIELS: Okay. But I -- I 10 significant. He was just an officer and somebody's
11 handed them over in good faith that we would agree 11 friend. What kind of -- I think he was Jim
12 to this confidentiality. I should've raised it 12 Johnson's friend. Or Jim Johnson's wife's friend
13 before I gave them to Sarah earlier today. 13 or something like that.
14 BY MS. BECKER: 14 Q What were the allegations of
15 Q Ms. Williams, can you identify 15 discrimination and retaliation on the basis of race
16 Exhibit 12? 16 and sex that you made to Mr. Nieds?
17 A Yes, it is the amended complaint in the 17 A I told him that I thought that the
18 civil action of Marialice Bathrus Williams versus 18 settlement agreement that they were offering me was
19 the -- Fannie Mae, Richard Lawch, and Grace 19 absolutely not reflective of my contributions to
20 Huebscher. 20 Fannie Mae, and that the offer was basically the --
21 Q This is the complaint that you filed; is 21 what was -- if you were getting ready to be
22 that correct? 22 terminated for cause from Fannie Mae, you pretty
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1 much got the settlement that I got, whether you'd 1 Q Who did you call?
2 ever produced anything or not. And at that point I 2 A I called Brian Lederer.
3 just simply said to him, you know, I -- you know, 3 Q Did Mr. Lederer represent you in
4 white people leave here and they don't get this 4 relation to the settlement agreement that you
5 kind of settlement. You know, they get an enhanced 5 negotiated with Fannie Mae in June of 1998?
6 settlement and all I'm getting is this. And number 6 A Yes.
7 two, you wouldn't even extend the time for me to 7 Q Other than Mr. Lederer, did you talk to
8 exercise my options, which meant I was -- I was 8 anybody else about your settlement agreement?
9 going to have a huge taxable event. You know, I 9 A I think I called Tom White, who had been
10 mean just little petty crap they could've been 10 a senior vice president for multifamily. I -- I
11 nicer about. 11 believe I called him because I was just so stunned
12 But again, you know, I'm sure Mr. Nieds 12 at the offer, but I -- I -- I can't tell you
13 was taking his instructions from Mr. Lawch, and he 13 honestly what -- I thought I had called Tom White.
14 sure didn't care. And didn't care about my 14 Q Did you talk to anybody else about your
15 accomplishments and eventually was taken off the 15 settlement agreement?
16 negotiations. Someone else was put on it. 16 A I don't think so.
17 Q Do you believe that Mr. Lawch was behind 17 Q I'd like to turn your attention to
18 the original settlement offer? 18 Paragraph 51 of the complaint. Do you remember a
19 A Yes. 19 meeting on the subject of captive insurance
20 Q And you believe that that original 20 companies?
21 settlement offer was the product of discrimination 21 A Yes. Had several. Before and after I
22 and retaliation by Mr. Lawch? 22 left Fannie Mae.
Page 190 Page 192
1 A Yes. 1 Q What meetings did you have before you
2 Q Did Fannie Mae subsequently make you a 2 left Fannie Mae?
3 different offer? 3 A Before I left Fannie Mae I had meetings
4 A No. They modified it to some extent but 4 with the credit officers in credit policy with the
5 not much. 5 division, Fannie Mae members of the multifamily
6 Q Was the modification an enhancement of 6 division, with -- I brought in -- prior to the
7 your compensation under the settlement agreement? 7 merger with Marsh Mac, oh, Lord, I forgot the name.
8 A Modest amendment, mod -- modest. 8 There was another major insurance brokerage which
9 Q My question is: Was the modest 9 merged with Marsh Mac and we brought in very, very,
10 amendment giving you more money than you had 10 very high-level officials from Marsh Mac, GenStar,
11 originally been offered? 11 and other place and a couple of other places, very
12 A It was giving me a little more than 12 high-level individuals, to discuss the basic
13 someone who was about to be terminated from the 13 concept of captive insurance. And then I wrote a
14 company. 14 proposal following that meeting to Fannie Mae. I
15 Q Do you remember when these negotiations 15 was still an employee at the time.
16 with Mr. Nieds took place, in relation to when you 16 Then over the next few years, a
17 left Fannie Mae? 17 significant number of developments occurred which
18 A In June of 1998. 18 made it far more feasible for corporations like
19 Q Do you remember when in June? 19 Fannie Mae to form captive insurance companies
20 A No, I think it took the whole month of 20 because an Internal Revenue Service opinion came
21 June. I met with him several times and then I had 21 out that in fact captive insurance companies are
22 to call a lawyer. 22 true insurance companies, and therefore the
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1 expenses of operating that insurance company were 1 securities and banking. And Kate is an
2 deductible by the owner. Even though it might've 2 international expert on captives and was discussing
3 been a subsidiary of Fannie Mae, it could -- it 3 the concept that we had that either Fannie Mae
4 could still deduct those expenses, et cetera, 4 could own a captive and rent out cells to various
5 et cetera. 5 individuals so that they use their own individual
6 And because of that -- my friend Harvey 6 captive cell as a credit enhancement or Fannie Mae
7 Hartsfield and I had been extremely active with the 7 would simply have the option of utilizing credit --
8 DC office of insurance, securities, and -- DISB, 8 the -- the captive for credit enhancement for
9 insurance, securities, and banking, and I had 9 itself and charging the customers for that service.
10 explained the concept to them. I'd gone back to 10 Q Were there any materials handed out at
11 Fannie Mae and explained that the DC had the -- a 11 the meeting?
12 new captive law and that we would prefer to use the 12 A Yes, I know that we did di -- diagrams
13 captive in DC if we were going to pursue this. 13 because it's a -- a somewhat complicated --
14 We had a gentleman from Atlanta, whose 14 somewhat complex structure in that you have
15 name is escaping me, plus Bob Jones, all of us were 15 several, quite a few parties. You have a
16 pursuing this concept of captive insurance 16 reinsurer, you have -- and -- and we had done
17 companies, either being located in the Cayman 17 diagrams with arrows and so forth indicating the
18 Islands, the Virgin Islands, which also had a new 18 actual process of securitization utilizing this
19 captive insurance law, and the District of 19 captive insurance as -- as a credit enhancement
20 Columbia. And those discussions continued, my 20 vehicle.
21 discussions on that still continuing to the 21 Q Was that done in something like a
22 present, but with Fannie Mae certainly until, as 22 PowerPoint presentation?
Page 194 Page 196
1 far as I can remember, into 2002 and beyond. 1 A I think we used a PowerPoint as well
2 Q You reference a particular meeting here 2 as -- no, I think we had hard copy in that meeting.
3 in Washington, DC? 3 And -- but they were depictions of our whole -- our
4 A Mm-hmm. 4 whole concept. Our whole captive insurance
5 Q Who was -- who was at that meeting? 5 concept. And we talked about the various parties
6 A The individuals listed there: Harvey 6 and clients of ours whom we had discussed the
7 Hartsfield, Kate Westover, Grace Huebscher, Rhoda 7 concept with.
8 Newman. There was an attorney whom I did not know. 8 Because again, you know, you can't just
9 I thought her name was Carol or Carolyn. She was 9 come to Fannie Mae with an idea, you have to come
10 new to Fannie Mae at that time, relatively new, and 10 with the whole package. So you've got a lot of
11 she was serving as counsel. And I had been 11 product development to do prior to -- to going to
12 instructed to work through Rhoda Newman as the 12 Fannie Mae and certainly prior to presenting any
13 staff contact person for any business I had. And 13 transaction utilizing a particular structure.
14 those were the people who were at the meeting. 14 Q I'd like to turn your attention to
15 Q What occurred at the meeting? 15 Paragraph 53 of the complaint.
16 A Kate Westover and Harvey Hartsfield and 16 What happened after that meeting to make
17 I made an add -- an additional presentation to 17 you believe that you had been blackballed by Fannie
18 Fannie Mae about the feasibility of using the DC as 18 Mae?
19 a captive jurisdiction, largely because the 19 A I really didn't get any further com --
20 implementing regulations for DC were being written 20 communication or correspondence from them after
21 by Kate. We had recommended her to Larry Mirel, 21 attempting to contact them. I still continued to
22 who at the time was the commissioner for insurance 22 cc Fannie Mae on e-mails regarding the development
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1 of that concept. But I think by then Bob Jones had 1 A I believe they are.
2 amended his complaint to include Fannie Mae, 2 Q I'd like to direct your attention to
3 because as I recall, initially Fannie Mae was not a 3 your answer to interrogatory number one. Is your
4 party to the Cam litigation. Initially it was only 4 answer to interrogatory number one complete or is
5 GenStar and GenRe, which were failing to -- to 5 there any additional information that you believe
6 honor the confidentiality agreement and exclusivity 6 is responsive to the question posed in interrog --
7 agreement that he had with them. 7 interrogatory number one?
8 But then I believe the judge said that 8 A You said is that my --
9 Fannie Mae was an indispensable party, given that 9 Q Is your answer to interrogatory number
10 she was actually distributing the funds that were 10 one complete or is there any additional information
11 going to these various places and -- and were -- 11 that you would like to add to your answer?
12 and had knowledge of the agreements that Bob and 12 A In the second paragraph of my answer on
13 Cam had with these companies. 13 Page 1, it says: It was the actions, not the
14 MS. BECKER: Let's go off the 14 statements, that made me aware that Fannie Mae was
15 record for just a minute. 15 excluding me from the pool of insurance brokers.
16 VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record at 16 And I'd have to say that based on that,
17 12:13:57. 17 the actions, right, it was the actions that made me
18 (Thereupon, at this point in the proceedings 18 know.
19 a luncheon recess was taken.) 19 Q You referred to a statement by Richard
20 VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record at 20 Lawch that he was, quote, working with an
21 1:16:18. 21 international broker for doing some insurance
22 MS. BECKER: Ms. Williams, I'm 22 business for the MBS pools.
Page 198 Page 200
1 handing you what I'll ask the court reporter to 1 Do you see that?
2 mark as Exhibit 13. 2 A Mm-hmm. Yes.
3 (Deposition Exhibit No. 13 - Plaintiff's 3 Q How does that support your claims in
4 Answers to Defendants' Interrogatories - was 4 this case?
5 marked for identification.) 5 A Mr. Lawch was fully aware that I was
6 MR. DANIELS: Before we -- did 6 capable of doing the business that Fannie Mae
7 you get an answer on the tax returns? Did you -- 7 wanted to do, using the insurance concept that I
8 MS. BECKER: Let -- let's cover 8 had developed. He was fully aware that I had left
9 it -- when -- before we get to the tax returns. 9 Fannie Mae in order to pursue the insurance
10 MR. DANIELS: Okay. 10 business, with respect to MCRI, and therefore when
11 BY MS. BECKER: 11 I approached him and he said that he had hired a,
12 Q Do you recognize that document? 12 quote/unquote, international broker, I knew that
13 A Yes. 13 what he was saying was that he was looking at
14 Q What is it? 14 someone other than me for doing that business, and
15 A Plaintiff's Answers to Defendants' 15 I knew that the person was Craig Ott, who is a
16 Interrogatories in the case of Marialice Bathrus 16 white man, and I am a black woman. And I know that
17 Williams versus Fannie Mae, et al. 17 I knew much more than Craig Ott will ever know
18 Q Did you prepare these interrogatory 18 about anything related to Fannie Mae or ins -- or
19 responses? 19 the MCRI business, and therefore I knew that that
20 A With my attorney. Attorneys. 20 was a discriminatory remark. That he was selecting
21 Q Are these interrogatory responses 21 a white man with no experience or knowledge over
22 accurate? 22 me, a black person, to do the aggregation business.
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1 Q How many insurance deals did you do 1 was asked to write this letter was that Fannie Mae
2 while you were at Fannie Mae? 2 was continuing to do business with Cam Financial,
3 A I closed the very first deal at Fannie 3 not just old business, but new business with Cam
4 Mae, was working on a second one when I left. I 4 Financial. And it's business that they could have
5 closed my deal with Metropolitan just before I left 5 done with me, which I did not know then. I thought
6 Fannie Mae. 6 Fannie Mae was asking me to write this letter to
7 Q So you closed one deal while you were at 7 say that I was not in business with Bob Jones in
8 Fannie Mae? 8 order to -- because they were concerned that Bob
9 A One deal using MCRI, while I was at 9 would get business through me, when in reality Bob
10 Fannie Mae, yes. 10 was already getting business through Fannie Mae
11 Q When did you start working on that deal? 11 that I was not included in.
12 A Three years before it closed, and I left 12 Q How does that demonstrate that Fannie
13 in '98, so it was probably be -- about '95, '94, 13 Mae tortiously interfered with your relationship
14 maybe even '93. 14 with Cam?
15 Q When did you first become a mortgage 15 A Well, if they're telling me I'm can't --
16 broker? 16 I'm not to do business with Cam, they're giving me
17 A I'm not a mortgage broker. 17 the impression that Cam is undesirable and someone
18 Q When did you first get your insurance 18 with whom they would not want to do business, when
19 broker's license? 19 in reality they were doing business with Cam,
20 A The summer after I left Fannie Mae. I 20 business that at that point I would be completely
21 believe it was around August of 1998. 21 excluded from because the relationship was between
22 Q Do you still have that license? 22 Cam and Fannie Mae.
Page 202 Page 204
1 A No, I don't. 1 Q How did that affect your relationship
2 Q When did the license expire? 2 with Cam?
3 A I think it was about two years ago. 3 A It meant that I could not do business
4 Q So that would've been 2005? 4 with Cam if I wanted to continue to work with
5 A I believe it was 2005. I'm not 5 Fannie Mae, which turned out to be a joke anyway,
6 absolutely certain. 6 since Fannie Mae never did anything with me. It
7 Q How many insurance transactions have you 7 was just one more stalling technique, one more
8 brokered since you left Fannie Mae? 8 tactic that Richard and his crew designed to
9 A None. 9 exclude me from the business that I had created,
10 Q I'd like to turn your attention to 10 which is one more obfuscation of the real point,
11 interrogatory number two and your answer. 11 which was we're not going to do this business with
12 I'd like to ask you to refer to what was 12 Marialice; we are just going to lead her on. And,
13 previously marked as Exhibit 2, which I believe the 13 oh, today we'll get her -- to write a letter that
14 court reporter has. 14 she doesn't work with Cam. Oh, tomorrow we'll ask
15 A This says Exhibit 1. 15 her some -- to do something else.
16 Q If you turn to Exhibit 2. Is Exhibit 2 16 And that's the way it went. On and on
17 the letter that you're referring to in your answer 17 and on 'til I was broke. And no business. And you
18 to interrogatory number two? 18 can look in my tax returns and see that I relied on
19 A Yes. 19 them, that I spent my entire settlement trying to
20 Q How does this -- how does Exhibit 2 20 do this business with Fannie Mae.
21 support your tortious interference claim? 21 Q Does Exhibit 2 accurately describe your
22 A What I did not know at the time that I 22 relationship with Cam?
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1 A Yes, it does. At that point. 1 don't know how much of it -- I don't know how much
2 Q I'd like to ask you to look at 2 went to Craig Ott. I just don't know.
3 interrogatory number three. And in particular, 3 I guess we could go to Bond Buyer and
4 your response on Page 3. Are you calculating your 4 find out, find out how many aggregation pools.
5 damages at $22 million? 5 Q I'd like you to look at your answer to
6 A No. That's -- I didn't ask for 6 interrogatory number seven.
7 $22 million. I believe I asked for more than that. 7 A Mm-hmm.
8 That was just on the DUS program. After I read all 8 Q Was your co-brokerage agreement with Cam
9 the documents that Fannie Mae provided, you know, 9 Financial ever reduced to writing?
10 it turned out that they did a great deal of 10 A Ever?
11 business other than DUS business. They did not do 11 Q Reduced to writing?
12 the DUS business; they did other business with 12 A I believe we did have a one-pager that
13 insurance. And I believe when I get the answers 13 said simply exactly what was in here. We'll just
14 from Fannie Mae I'll know how much that is, and it 14 split the insurance if we do a deal together.
15 certainly is a lot more than 22 million. 15 Q Did you produce that one-pager?
16 Q So your understanding is that Fannie Mae 16 A I -- I don't remember. I think I did.
17 did not do DUS business; is that correct? 17 Yes, yes, I did produce I think a number of
18 A My understanding is that they didn't. 18 iterations of it, and I think I produced it in the
19 But I wouldn't know. They never told me the truth 19 document request from Fannie Mae.
20 about anything. 20 And I believe it's the same thing I
21 Q I'd like to ask you to look at 21 described in here, in this other Exhibit 2 over
22 interrogatory number five. Do you stand by that 22 here.
Page 206 Page 208
1 answer or -- or do you wish to amend your response 1 Q You're referring to Exhibit 2?
2 in any way? 2 A Yes.
3 A I believe that that is an accurate 3 Q We've been unable to locate a written
4 response because I don't know how much business 4 document that would be a co-brokerage agreement
5 Fannie Mae gave -- gave to Craig Ott precisely. I 5 between you and Cam in your discovery responses.
6 don't know how much business they gave to Bob 6 Would you be willing to allow your attorneys to
7 Jones. I don't know the complete answer to that. 7 direct us to the production number of the document
8 All I know is there's an aggregation 8 that you're referring to?
9 product on the market. It is anonymous as to who 9 A I believe the last -- my last deposition
10 the broker may have been on the deals, and 10 you gave me as an exhibit a co-brokerage agreement
11 therefore I cannot say how much business was given 11 between Cam and myself. You handed it to me and
12 to Craig Ott, but Fannie Mae certainly knows how 12 marked it as an exhibit.
13 much they gave to Craig Ott, and they certainly 13 Q Can you identify it?
14 know how much they gave to Bob Jones. And in the 14 MR. DANIELS: You think it was
15 information that was given to me or, excuse me, 15 Bob Jones's deposition that that happened?
16 that Mr. Daniels and Mr. Lederer's law clerk gave 16 THE WITNESS: No, it was the
17 to them regard -- from -- that was taken from the 17 last time I was here.
18 Bob Jones/Cam Financial case, there were certain 18 MR. DANIELS: Okay.
19 indications as to how much business Fannie Mae was 19 THE WITNESS: There was a
20 doing in both aggregation and on the regular MCRI 20 document that someone handed me. It was -- and
21 business, and it -- indications were that it was 21 said --
22 a -- a very substantial amount of money. And I 22 MR. DANIELS: I think the
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1 question was whether -- 1 A No, if -- if it's not here then -- and I
2 BY MS. BECKER: 2 didn't give it to you in the other -- then -- then
3 Q I'm sorry. Ms. Williams, can you review 3 maybe it's not. Maybe it's lost. But I thought
4 the exhibits from your -- the previous day of your 4 there was one signed and I thought we had given it
5 deposition and see if you can identify that 5 to you. But I could be mistaken.
6 document? 6 And by that time Bob was giving me the
7 A Those are here? 7 runaround just like Fannie Mae was 'cause they were
8 Q Yes. 8 all lying and stealing and not paying me anything,
9 A Well, here's one right here at 9 and I had created the whole thing. So I guess
10 Exhibit 4, unsigned. And then here's one I think 10 maybe we didn't sign one in final. It's all just a
11 that Harvey mailed to them, that's exhibit -- 11 big runaround. I was the only one that took it
12 excuse me, it's Page 10546 to Danny Groves from 12 seriously.
13 Harvey Hartsfield. These were -- and that's 13 Q Are you able to identify the exact terms
14 January 14th, 2002. And that's -- you know, we 14 of the co-brokerage agreement that you allegedly
15 kept trying to go at it to try and get something 15 had with Cam?
16 that we could all agree with. 16 A In Exhibit 2 I have described it, and I
17 And let's see, there's another one here 17 don't think there's any better description. I've
18 at 10548/49. That one's unsigned as well. I 18 also shown you in Exhibit 3 and 4 that there were
19 thought we had a one -- perhaps we never did sign 19 several instances, and I told you that the
20 a -- a final one, but I -- I thought we had. 20 agreement is pretty much exactly what Exhibit 4
21 Perhaps I'm mistaken. 21 says: That if we do any business together, there
22 MR. DANIELS: What was the 22 will be a 50/50 split between the two of us. And
Page 210 Page 212
1 question that was on the table, please. Could you 1 that was pretty much the extent of the agreement.
2 go back? 2 And you could have that agreement with
3 MADAM REPORTER: Sure. The 3 any broker, anywhere, any day of the week, any
4 original question? 4 time. It's just a very simple, plain, clear 50/50
5 MR. DANIELS: Yes. The one 5 split on commissions.
6 that -- 6 Q So in the event that you did a deal with
7 (The reporter read the record as requested.) 7 Fannie Mae, the co-brokerage agreement meant that
8 MR. DANIELS: And the answer. 8 you would have to split any proceeds with Cam
9 THE WITNESS: The -- 9 50/50?
10 (The reporter read the record as requested.) 10 A If I did what?
11 THE WITNESS: And that's pretty 11 MS. BECKER: Can you read back
12 much what these agreements say, with some other 12 the question.
13 language. But I -- if there was a signed one and 13 (The reporter read the record as requested.)
14 it's not in here, then it's probably that I can't 14 THE WITNESS: Not necessarily.
15 locate the signed copy. I thought we did actually 15 Depended on who the insurance company was. If it
16 have a signed agreement. Because as late as 2002, 16 was an insurance company that I had an exclusive
17 Bob Jones and I went to Baltimore to meet with a -- 17 arrangement with, no, I wouldn't have to split
18 a major rated insurance company to talk more about 18 anything with Bob. If Bob located the insurance
19 both MCRI as well as captive insurance/reinsurance. 19 company, certainly I would have to split that with
20 BY MS. BECKER: 20 him, and that's -- it's just a standard kind of a
21 Q Do you have any evidence of a signed 21 co-brokerage agreement, which I explained in here
22 co-brokerage agreement between you and Cam? 22 to Fannie Mae: It's just a plain co-brokerage
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1 agreement. 1 years, spending every dime I had doing product
2 You could sometimes in the insurance 2 development, in order to see that Fannie Mae
3 business split commission with somebody you never 3 adhered to its chartered obligation by doing
4 seen or heard of in your entire life. It'd just 4 affordable housing loans, which was what my whole
5 depend on who -- would depend on who was the 5 point was of my whole program. But they weren't
6 procurer of the actual insurance itself. 6 particularly interested in doing that business
7 BY MS. BECKER: 7 anyway.
8 Q In what way did Fannie Mae interfere 8 So that's where I am on this. You
9 with your co-brokerage agreement with Cam? 9 can -- I'm sure you can imagine my frustration. I
10 A Fannie Mae interfered with my 10 don't understand it any more than you do. I don't
11 relationship with Cam Financial by saying that they 11 understand why they had me write the letter. I
12 sen -- essentially did not want me doing business 12 don't understand why Bob Jones lied. I don't
13 with them. That is why I was asked to write this 13 understand why Fannie Mae lied about what they were
14 letter, which I wrote, which is in here, which 14 doing. I don't understand it either. I just know
15 basically says to Cam Financial, you know, Fannie 15 that I'm the one that wound up being hurt and
16 Mae doesn't want you doing business with Cam 16 having no money and no business.
17 Financial. 17 Q So fundamentally your claim related to
18 And for two people who had been working 18 the co-brokerage agreement is that Fannie Mae
19 together for five years, it was a little bit 19 didn't do any business with you; is that fair to
20 strange to have somebody come out of left field and 20 say?
21 ask you to write that kind of letter. I don't know 21 A That's right.
22 what their motivation was. But it certainly did 22 Q I'd like to ask you to look at your
Page 214 Page 216
1 destroy what -- whatever relationship I had with 1 answer to interrogatory number nine.
2 Cam at that point, because obviously Fannie Mae -- 2 VIDEOGRAPHER: Excuse me,
3 and then Fannie Mae wasn't even being truthful then 3 Ms. Becker, but we are about to run out of tape.
4 because they weren't going to give me any business 4 This is the end of videotape number one
5 whether I was doing it with Bob or not. But I did 5 of the testimony of Marialice Bathrus Williams, May
6 not know that at the time, and I also did not know 6 7th, 2007. Off the record at 1:45:40.
7 they were still doing business with Bob, which is 7 (Discussion held off the record.)
8 why it doesn't all make sense at all. 8 VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the
9 So you wonder what kind of subterfuge or 9 videotape tape number two, Volume II, of the
10 crap they are handing you when you -- you know, 10 testimony of Marialice Bathrus Williams, May 7th,
11 you're told to do one thing and then you discover 11 2007. On the record at 1:50:54.
12 later on, well, they told you not to do business 12 BY MS. BECKER:
13 with them, but then they weren't doing business 13 Q I'd like to ask you to look at your
14 with you, but then they were doing business with 14 answer to interrogatory number nine. What phone
15 him. And -- so was it that they didn't want you to 15 conversations between you and Bob Jones are you
16 do business with him 'cause you'd get part of what 16 referring to?
17 they're getting. Or did they not want Bob to get 17 A Conversations with Bob Jones regarding
18 something you might get. Well, obviously that 18 business he was doing with Fannie Mae that I was
19 wasn't true because they weren't giving you 19 not aware of. And he indicated in one of those
20 anything. 20 conversations that, you know, he evidently had the
21 So, you know, it was -- it was me 21 same kind of discussion with Fannie Mae that I had
22 spinning around like a whirling dervish for several 22 about not doing business with him, but for some
22 (Pages 213 to 216)
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1 reason he was still getting business, and I was 1 they were trying to convince insurers or reinsurers
2 not. 2 to participate in this particular type of insurance
3 Q What did he tell you that led you to 3 program. And likewise, if -- if there was
4 believe that Fannie Mae was discouraging Cam 4 something that I needed on the insurance side,
5 Financial from doing business with you? 5 the -- one of the consultants that we worked with
6 A He said, I don't think Fannie Mae wants 6 on the -- in -- on the captive insurance was a
7 to do business with you. 7 personal friend of Cam Financial, so we started
8 Q Did he say that Fannie Mae was 8 using Cam Financial in order to access this
9 discouraging Cam from doing business with you? 9 particular individual. It was prior to the time
10 A Yes. 10 that we started working with Kate Westover.
11 Q What did he say in that regard? 11 BY MS. BECKER:
12 A Cam didn't want Fannie -- him to do 12 Q Do you remember when your conversation
13 business with me. 13 with Bob Jones took place?
14 Q I'm sorry, can you repeat that? 14 A I can't remember the exact dates, but it
15 A Fannie -- Fannie Mae did not want Cam 15 was 2002/2003. Late into the game, after we
16 Financial to do business with me. 16 were -- late into the game, 2002/2003.
17 Q What specifically did he say about that? 17 Q How do you recall that?
18 A Fannie Mae did not want Cam Financial to 18 A Because it didn't -- I didn't know
19 do business with me. 19 really until that time that -- well, really
20 Q What business were you doing with Cam 20 honestly, 2005/2006, and 2006 I really learned the
21 Financial at that time? 21 extent of Cam's relationship with Fannie Mae. And
22 A I -- I think we've gone through this 22 I repeated to Mr. Jones that I was just absolutely
Page 218 Page 220
1 whole litany of things that I tried to do with Cam 1 shocked at the amount of business that they had
2 Financial and Fannie Mae and then I was asked not 2 done with Fannie Mae, at which time he reiterated
3 to do business with Cam Financial, Cam Financial 3 that, well, you know, Fannie Mae just didn't want
4 was asked not to do business with me. I still had 4 to do business with you, didn't want us to do
5 to continue to try to do business. I -- I mean I'm 5 business with you.
6 not sure of what answer you want or are looking for 6 Q You said that he reiterated that?
7 because I can't remember what your question was, 7 A Mm-hmm.
8 really. 8 Q That's Mr. Jones?
9 MS. BECKER: Can you read back 9 A Mr. Jones, yes.
10 the question. 10 Q And when is the first time that he said
11 (The reporter read the record as requested.) 11 that?
12 THE WITNESS: I was -- Cam 12 A We had the discussions initially when I
13 Financial and I were visiting various insurance 13 received the e -- e-mail from Betty Dance in 2001
14 companies together, depending upon who had the 14 about the DUS proposal. But we had so many other
15 contact. It was often that I had the knowledge. 15 things on the table, of course, I just assumed that
16 It was known that I had the knowledge of the 16 that was only about the DUS proposal and that
17 secondary market and that I had the knowledge of 17 perhaps Fannie Mae still was sincere since it did
18 the processes and functions at Fannie Mae and was 18 in fact meet with me and have lunch with me after
19 familiar with the process that one goes through in 19 that time about doing some other business other
20 order to do securitization at Fannie Mae. 20 than the DUS business. Or the -- I mean I -- I
21 Therefore, it was important to Fam -- to Cam in 21 forgot the question.
22 many instances that I be present at meetings where 22 (The reporter read the record as requested.)
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1 THE WITNESS: Right. The first 1 Q Do you know what any of these unpleasant
2 time was right after the receipt of the e-mail from 2 or terrible things were?
3 Betty Dance, indicating that Grace Huebscher was 3 A That I was stupid, that I didn't know
4 going to use Craig Ott rather than me for her 4 anything about the business. Et cetera.
5 aggregation program. 5 Q What other statements other than that
6 MR. DANIELS: Is there a 6 you were stupid and that you didn't know the
7 question pending? Where are we? 7 business?
8 MS. BECKER: No. I'm waiting 8 A I don't know. I think people sometimes
9 for an exhibit. 9 don't like to tell you the specific words, but he
10 MR. DANIELS: Do you need a 10 told me Fannie Mae said some pretty terrible things
11 break to get this together? 11 about you. I don't think I'd tell Bob Jones, for
12 MS. BECKER: It'll just be a 12 example, that Richard called him a redneck -- no, I
13 second. 13 think I did tell him that. But that's, you know,
14 MR. DANIELS: Is it something we 14 that's the way Richard Lawch is.
15 can come back to? I have never seen anything -- 15 If you know him as a person he -- he
16 huh? 16 makes cutting and sarcastic and cynical and
17 BY MS. BECKER: 17 defamatory and false statements about lots of
18 Q I'd like to turn your attention to your 18 people. But he particularly says them about people
19 answer to interrogatory number ten. 19 that he doesn't like, like me.
20 MR. DANIELS: Thank you. 20 Q Is it accurate that you don't recall the
21 BY MS. BECKER: 21 dates of these conversations?
22 Q What false and defamatory information 22 A I don't recall the dates, no.
Page 222 Page 224
1 was communicated to Cam about you? 1 Q Turning your attention to interrogatory
2 A I had several conversations with Bob 2 number 11, do you know when the co-brokerage
3 Jones where I was told of negative and defamatory 3 agreement with Cam that you allege existed expired?
4 things that were said about me. Did he tell me 4 A No, I really don't know. I don't recall
5 what they were precisely? No. But we know they 5 when it expired. I'm not sure if it had a term in
6 were said. He knows they were said. Richard Lawch 6 here. Let's see. Does this say?
7 knows they were said. You have to ask them. 7 This doesn't say so I don't know.
8 Q Is it fair to say you don't know what 8 Well, it certainly had to expire when I
9 was said? 9 was no longer a broker. I haven't been a broker
10 A I know it was false and defamatory. 10 for two years. I don't believe it's -- I think
11 Q How do you know that? 11 it's been two years now.
12 A Because I was told that it was. 12 Q Turning your attention to interrogatory
13 Q Did Mr. Jones use the words "false" and 13 number 13. Can you explain to me how you calculate
14 "defamatory"? 14 your damages in this case?
15 A Maybe not the words false and 15 A The losses were calculated based upon
16 defamatory, but he certainly said unpleasant and 16 the amount of potential business that Fannie Mae
17 terrible things were said about me to Washington 17 did using structures developed by me. Generally
18 Mortgage and, let's see, in one instance I know of 18 speaking, the fees ranged about 25 basis points
19 specifically, and to Red Mortgage Capital. And 19 annually for the insurance. In some instances the
20 there was just a lot of negative things that 20 fees were as high as 56 basis points. And the
21 Richard would say about me to various people, Bob 21 broker's fee is approximately 10 percent of the
22 Jones being one of them. 22 premium fee.
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1 Annual reports from Fannie Mae reflect 1 me, which would be 50 percent of the 10 percent of
2 about $2 billion of MBS, one-off transactions which 2 the actual fee charged. And then I don't have any
3 were closed andually -- an -- annually, 3 idea how much the aggregation program did, and I
4 substantially more MBS were issued with the DUS 4 don't know if that's the extent of it. As I said,
5 portfolio. I would have no way of knowing exactly 5 here again, because I don't know how much the DUS
6 what the credit enhancement arrangements were for 6 portfolio was credit enhanced with any kind of
7 all those transactions and the extent to which the 7 insurance project -- product. So --
8 insurance was used, but Fannie Mae would know all 8 Q So is the 5.1 million that you're
9 of that including how much was closed under the 9 alleging, does that have anything to do with DUS
10 aggregation program, how much was closed under the 10 deals?
11 one-off transaction specifically. Only Fannie Mae 11 A No, I don't know how much the DUS deals
12 would be able to answer that. 12 were. This was only one small part that was
13 However, in looking at the documents 13 recorded, said 2 billion -- annual reports from
14 that were filed in the court in Mississippi, it was 14 Fannie Mae reflect that 2 billion -- that's just
15 pretty apparent that several hundred million 15 for one year. So let's see, '98, '99, '2000, '1,
16 dollars, more than a billion, actually, I think, of 16 '2, '3, '4, '5. When did I file in '5? So that's
17 business was done with using some form of the 17 seven times five, that's 35 million right there
18 insurance concept, all of which were knockoffs of 18 without me knowing the balance of what else
19 the concept that I developed, and all of the 19 would've been there.
20 relationships were those which I brought to Fannie 20 Q And that amount that you're identifying
21 Mae with Bob under signed confidentiality 21 is unrelated to DUS deals; is that correct?
22 agreements. So it would be fairly simple I guess 22 A Right. I didn't leave there just to do
Page 226 Page 228
1 for Fannie Mae to track that. 1 DUS deals. I left there to do MCRI. MCRI could've
2 But the only tracking I could do was 2 been used on the equity program, could've been used
3 through, as I said, looking at their annual reports 3 on aggregation, affordable housing, DUS, the
4 to see how much they did, and then looking at Bob 4 standard one-off negotiated transactions, the DUS
5 Jones's account when he was assessing his 5 securitization transactions as well. I don't -- I
6 calculations for damages in his case. And that 6 don't know how much they did on that.
7 information you have as well. 7 I can only tell you based on what was in
8 Q Based on the calculations that you have 8 this particular thing and what's in Bob's notes
9 done, using the annual reports and information 9 that we're talking about at least 35 million for
10 relating to Bob Jones, how do you calculate your 10 those few years.
11 damages in this case? 11 Q Have you calculated any damages relating
12 A Ten percent of the premium fee that was 12 to DUS deals?
13 charged for the insurance would be what the insurer 13 A I don't know that any DUS deals were
14 would receive minus -- oh, no, 10 percent was the 14 done, but we know what the fees would've been, yes.
15 premium. So if I was entitled to 50 percent of 15 And the only reason Fan -- and Fannie Mae didn't do
16 that, then we're looking at, let's see -- I can 16 the DUS deals because she didn't feel like it, not
17 tell you real fast what that would be. It would 17 that it wasn't needed in the marketplace and
18 be -- well, I can only tell you what it would be on 18 wouldn't have opened it up to other people. She
19 the 2 billion -- 112, 1.2, 12, 11.2. It would be 19 just decided whether or not -- I don't know whether
20 5.1 million in actual fees that would be derived 20 she decided to do it or not. It had to do with
21 from that particular package. 21 accounting for its own customers, but, you know,
22 I believe that's what it would be for 22 Fannie Mae does what it wants to do. And she
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1 wouldn't even permit as -- and as long as I knew, 1 mean I had extraordinary expenses, living expenses.
2 she wouldn't even permit her own people to use it. 2 Q Do you have any documents reflecting the
3 So I don't know who that was hurting except the 3 rent that you paid to the Watergate on the business
4 American public. 4 offices?
5 Remember, the proposal for the meeting, 5 A Yes, it's on my tax return. And I have
6 the captive concept, that was not necessarily to be 6 a lease.
7 used for dusk -- DUS people. That was to be used 7 Q Did you produce that lease?
8 in their standard program, securitization program, 8 A I don't know whether I did or not. I
9 and then negotiated transactions program. Or 9 don't know if I could find it. I don't think it
10 one-off deals is what they called them. 10 would be too difficult to find it or to have an
11 Q I'd like to turn your attention to your 11 affidavit done by Gigi Winston and her father who
12 answer to interrogatory number 14. You've 12 rented the -- found the space for me and rented it
13 identified certain expenses in response to this 13 to me and all the people that came to visit me
14 interrogatory. Can you tell me how you calculate 14 there. I don't think it was any secret that I
15 rent at $1,450 a month? 15 actually rented the apartment, so I don't think
16 A That's what my lease was. 16 there would be any problem getting documentation to
17 Q This was your lease at the Watergate? 17 prove that I actually had a space there. And the
18 A Watergate. 18 fact that Harvey Hartsfield and Rob Robinson worked
19 Q Was that the lease on your personal 19 there on a daily basis, so.
20 apartment or on your business -- 20 And Bob Johns -- Jones came to visit
21 A No, I had an office. It had three 21 there, and people from Fannie Mae came to visit
22 offices. It had an office for someone who came in 22 there, Washington Mortgage came there, Red Mortgage
Page 230 Page 232
1 occasionally and did secretarial work. It had an 1 Capital came there, Chris Tawa came there. I mean
2 office for first Rob Robinson and then Harvey 2 it's -- you know, obviously I was there.
3 Hartsfield. And then I had my own office and then 3 Q Was that office the headquarters for
4 the outer office was a conference area. And it was 4 RMS?
5 a unit number 701 in the Watergate office building 5 A It was the headquarters for Marialice
6 itself. 6 Williams & Associates; it was the headquarters for
7 My apartment was in the south building 7 RMS, LLC and the headquarters for RMS without the
8 at the Watergate. And although I did use a portion 8 LLC.
9 of my apartment for my -- for office, I did not -- 9 Q How did you calculate phone and office
10 I worked every day in my office in the Watergate 10 equipment at $1,000 a month?
11 office building. 11 A That's what it cost. I just went to the
12 And that does not include what I had to 12 bills. I had three telephone lines since there
13 pay in order to make the office suitable for use. 13 were three people in the office. I had fax
14 I had it reconfigured slightly, to the tune of 14 machines, copiers; I had everything that you would
15 quite a few thousand dollars. And it also doesn't 15 have in a typical office. And the -- and the
16 reflect that, you know, I had to live during that 16 commercial phone lines and -- and the cell phones'
17 period, and I basically lived off of my money that 17 cost, I'm sure that's not even -- that's probably a
18 I got from Fannie Mae at retirement and a $200,000 18 gross understatement of what it cost.
19 loan I took out on my apartment with Bank of 19 Q Do you still have those bills?
20 America that had to be paid off when I did my 20 A No, but I have a tax return and the
21 apartment -- you know, when I left my apartment. I 21 backup documentation, yes. I think one year I had
22 mean when I paid off my -- sold my apartment. So I 22 $140,000 -- she has my tax re -- you have my tax
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1 returns, just look at them and you can see how much 1 Q How long did you have an office
2 it cost me. 2 assistant?
3 Q My question is do you have the bills 3 A That's really not quite accurate in
4 that reflect -- 4 terms of "office assistant." It's really a person
5 A Of course I have them. I had to prepare 5 who was working as a consultant, doing a lot of the
6 my tax returns; therefore, I have all my backup 6 marketing work and so forth with me; and I had them
7 documentation and it's all on my tax returns. 7 from the day I started until the day I left the
8 Q So you do have those bills? 8 Watergate and even really beyond that time, I
9 A Yes. 9 believe.
10 Q How did you calculate 15,000 -- I'm 10 Q Who is this individual?
11 sorry, 1500 a month in travel costs? 11 A There were two different individuals;
12 A By the expenses that I used to travel 12 one is Rob Robinson, Robert Robinson, was the first
13 to -- I mean the same way you have phone and 13 person. I paid him two grand a month. And the
14 office -- yes, I have those receipts as well. 14 second person was Harvey Hartsfield, who was paid
15 Q Did you have expense reports that you 15 $3,000 a month. We went on all of our -- we went
16 prepared for these trips or did you simply keep 16 on all of our business calls together and business
17 receipts somewhere? 17 trips, conferences.
18 A I just kept receipts. I was just an 18 MR. DANIELS: Marialice, do you
19 individual. 19 have to put more quarters in the --
20 Q And where did you keep these receipts? 20 THE WITNESS: Yeah, in about 20
21 A Oh, Jesus. In a file. 21 minutes.
22 Q Do you still have that file? 22 BY MS. BECKER:
Page 234 Page 236
1 A Yes, I did my tax returns and I have my 1 Q What was the time frame in which
2 backup documentation. 2 Mr. Robinson worked for you?
3 Q When did these travel expenses start? 3 A From -- I believe it was from 1998 until
4 A The day I left Fannie Mae. 4 19 -- until 2000, I think, almost 2000.
5 Q And they were consistently 1500 a month 5 Q What was the time frame during which --
6 every month? 6 A The balance of the time from about 1999
7 A That was an average. In a -- in a 7 or 2000 through till 2002, '3, something like that,
8 typical month, I would go to New York two or three 8 because he was still working with me when I moved
9 times to meet with Marsh Mac. I would go to 9 out of the Watergate and moved to 5722 First
10 Dallas, Texas to meet with Lend Lease. I would go 10 Street.
11 to California to meet with Countrywide Mortgage. 11 Q Just so that the record is clear, we're
12 These were not inexpensive travel trips at all. 12 talking about Harvey Hartsfield here?
13 Q Did you calculate this based on an 13 A Correct.
14 average or did you look at the actual receipts and 14 Q And what were the dates he was employed
15 add them up? 15 with you?
16 A I prepared my tax returns from actual 16 A I don't recall the exact dates.
17 receipts. When this question was responded to, I'm 17 Q What's your best estimate?
18 certain I gave an average number. I could have 18 A He started when Rob Robinson stopped and
19 given an exact number on all of these things. And 19 then he stopped in 2003, I believe it was. And
20 I believe you will see the exact numbers on my tax 20 we're still working together.
21 returns that are backed up by large manila 21 Q When did you stop paying him 3,000 a
22 envelopes filled with receipts. 22 month?
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1 A I don't recall. 1 Mississippi and got the records and does certain
2 Q Do you have any records that would 2 legal research at Mr. Daniels' and Mr. Lederer's
3 indicate that? 3 direction.
4 A I'm sure that the exact amount would be 4 Q Has he ever represented you?
5 on my tax returns and that's how we could estimate 5 A No.
6 when it would've been. Mr. Hartsfield and I are 6 Q Who else represents you in this
7 still working together. I do not pay him myself; 7 litigation -- or who does represent you in this
8 we're paid out of other funds from a contractor. 8 litigation?
9 MS. BECKER: Do you want to take 9 A Michael Beasley, Brian Lederer, and
10 a short break so you can go put money in the meter? 10 Harley Daniels.
11 THE WITNESS: Mm-hmm. 11 Q Did you also have a personal
12 MS. BECKER: Okay. 12 relationship with Mr. Daniels?
13 VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record at 13 A I was married to Mr. Daniels from 1980
14 2:22:54. 14 to 1990.
15 (Thereupon, a recess was taken.) 15 Q So you were married to Mr. Daniels when
16 VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record at 16 you were working at Fannie Mae; is that correct?
17 2:40. 17 A Yes, for part of the time, yes.
18 BY MS. BECKER: 18 Q Did you ever discuss with Mr. Daniels
19 Q Ms. Williams, directing your attention 19 your working relationship with Richard Lawch?
20 to your response to interrogatory number 15, who is 20 A Absolutely.
21 Conway Downing? 21 Q What did you tell him about that
22 A Conway Downing is -- has been the sort 22 relationship?
Page 238 Page 240
1 of law -- law clerk for this transaction with us, 1 A I told him Richard was the worst boss
2 works with Mr. Daniels and Mr. Lederer. And he -- 2 I've ever had and that he was a miserable son of a
3 I was married to him -- I'm marr -- still married 3 gun and that he did not like me and treated me
4 to him, although we've been separated for some 4 poorly and that I would -- that I was being taken
5 time, but we still have a number of business 5 advantage of, that I was being treated unfairly,
6 transactions together. And he worked in the office 6 et cetera.
7 at the Watergate, one of the three offices, over 7 Q Did you tell Mr. Daniels that you
8 the time that we were trying to do this business 8 believed that Mr. Lawch discriminated against you
9 with Fannie Mae. 9 on basis of your race?
10 And as recently as two weeks ago on 10 A Yes, I did.
11 Friday, I think I mentioned it to you in the last 11 Q Did Mr. Daniels provide you with any
12 part of the deposition, we have -- he's still 12 advice on how to deal with Fannie Mae?
13 arranging meetings with people to talk about 13 A No, not at that time.
14 potential business, with Fannie Mae, using a con -- 14 Q Did he provide you with any advice in
15 a -- another concept that's not mentioned in this 15 connection with your settlement agreement with
16 document. 16 Fannie Mae?
17 Q Is he a licensed attorney? 17 A I did discuss it with him to some extent
18 A In the state of Virginia. 18 but I -- Brian Lederer actually represented me.
19 Q Does he represent you in connection with 19 Q What was the nature of your discussions
20 this litigation? 20 with Mr. Daniels regarding your settlement
21 A No, doesn't represent me. He's serving 21 agreement?
22 as a clerk. He's the person that went to 22 A How unfair, how could they do this. All
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1 those years I put in. All that money I made for 1 Q Does December 16, 2003 sound like the
2 them. How could they treat me like I'm just some 2 last date that you were deposed in connection with
3 piece of crap that's leaving there under pressure. 3 the Cam litigation?
4 I can't believe they're only paying me this and I 4 A It could've been.
5 made them all that money. 5 Q When in relation to that last deposition
6 Let's see, what else did I discuss with 6 did Mr. Williams first represent -- I'm sorry, did
7 him? Just general matters that -- that we 7 Mr. Daniels first represent you?
8 discussed -- that I discussed earlier. The 8 A When in relation to it?
9 unfairness, how awful Richard Lawch was. How he 9 Q Yes.
10 stepped in the middle of my negotiations and 10 A He went to that deposition with me.
11 probably caused Tom Nieds to treat me like crap, 11 Q Was that the first time that he
12 which he did. He was really nasty and crappy to 12 represented you in connection with Fannie Mae?
13 me. 13 A As far as I know.
14 Q What was Mr. Daniels' reaction to the 14 Q At the time that you were negotiating
15 situation? 15 your settlement agreement with Fannie Mae, what was
16 MR. DANIELS: I'm going to 16 Mr. Daniels reaction to the situation?
17 object to that. At that point we were no longer 17 A I don't know.
18 married, and I was speaking to her in the capacity 18 MR. DANIELS: Yeah, I'm -- I'm
19 as an attorney and I gave her advice at that time, 19 going to ask you not to answer that question.
20 so I ask her not to answer that question. 20 THE WITNESS: Okay.
21 BY MS. BECKER: 21 MR. DANIELS: It involves legal
22 Q What was the date of your divorce? 22 advice.
Page 242 Page 244
1 A I don't remember. 1 MS. BECKER: On what basis?
2 MR. DANIELS: August 1993. 2 MR. DANIELS: Lawyer-client
3 BY MS. BECKER: 3 privilege.
4 Q When did Mr. Daniels first represent you 4 MS. BECKER: The witness has
5 in a legal capacity? 5 just testified that there was no attorney-client
6 A In 1987, in Hobbs, New Mexico, in a 6 relationship at that time.
7 matter involving an automobile that was defective. 7 MR. DANIELS: 1988?
8 Q When did Mr. Daniels first represent you 8 MR. LEDERER: 1998 --
9 in connection with Fannie Mae? 9 MR. DANIELS: '98. I -- I still
10 A I don't recall the exact date. But it 10 invoke client -- attorney-client relationship.
11 would have been the same time I met with 11 THE WITNESS: You did
12 Mr. Lederer, Mr. Beasley, and Mr. Daniels at the 12 represent -- yes, right, I did seek his counsel
13 same time. And I believe it was before the 13 first. I -- I misspoke. He did represent me.
14 depositions were concluded because they attended 14 BY MS. BECKER:
15 the final deposition after the death of Julia 15 Q When did Mr. Daniels first represent you
16 Williams, my -- my attorney prior to that time. So 16 in connection with Fannie Mae?
17 at the last deposition in the Cam Financial matter, 17 A Prior to my departure. That's right. I
18 where I was deposed, Mr. -- all three of my counsel 18 do remember that now.
19 were present at that time. 19 MR. DANIELS: Mm-hmm.
20 Q What was the date of that last 20 BY MS. BECKER:
21 deposition? 21 Q Are you going to follow Mr. Daniels'
22 A I don't remember. 22 instruction and not answer my question?
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