{"cached_at":"2026-11-07T11:46:58.146198+00:00","cl_docket_id":"4202584","docket":{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/dockets/4202584/","id":4202584,"court":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/courts/dcd/","court_id":"dcd","original_court_info":null,"idb_data":{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/fjc-integrated-database/21998996/","date_created":"2018-11-21T04:48:49.014922-08:00","date_modified":"2022-01-27T16:44:19.116759-08:00","dataset_source":9,"office":"1","docket_number":"0501483","origin":1,"date_filed":"2005-07-28","jurisdiction":2,"nature_of_suit":440,"title":"","section":"1983","subsection":"","diversity_of_residence":null,"class_action":null,"monetary_demand":9999,"county_of_residence":11001,"arbitration_at_filing":"","arbitration_at_termination":"","multidistrict_litigation_docket_number":"","plaintiff":"","defendant":"WILLIAMS","date_transfer":null,"transfer_office":"","transfer_docket_number":"","transfer_origin":"","date_terminated":"2007-10-12","termination_class_action_status":null,"procedural_progress":4,"disposition":13,"nature_of_judgement":null,"amount_received":0,"judgment":null,"pro_se":0,"year_of_tape":2008,"nature_of_offense":"","version":null,"circuit":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/courts/cadc/","district":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/courts/dcd/"},"clusters":[],"audio_files":[],"assigned_to":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/people/201/","referred_to":null,"bankruptcy_information":null,"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.020083-07:00","date_modified":"2024-11-12T08:06:02.840789-08:00","source":9,"appeal_from_str":"","assigned_to_str":"John D. Bates","referred_to_str":"","panel_str":"","date_last_index":"2021-01-21T07:11:41.734028-08:00","date_cert_granted":null,"date_cert_denied":null,"date_argued":null,"date_reargued":null,"date_reargument_denied":null,"date_filed":"2005-07-28","date_terminated":"2007-10-12","date_last_filing":"2007-10-12","case_name_short":"","case_name":"WILLIAMS v. FANNIE MAE","case_name_full":"","slug":"williams-v-fannie-mae","docket_number":"1:05-cv-01483","docket_number_core":"0501483","docket_number_raw":"1:05-cv-01483","docket_number_source":0,"federal_dn_office_code":"","federal_dn_case_type":"","federal_dn_judge_initials_assigned":"","federal_dn_judge_initials_referred":"","federal_defendant_number":null,"pacer_case_id":"116226","cause":"42:1983 Civil Rights Act","nature_of_suit":"Civil Rights: Other","jury_demand":"","jurisdiction_type":"Government defendant","appellate_fee_status":"","appellate_case_type_information":"","mdl_status":"","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.docket.xml","filepath_ia_json":"https://archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.docket.json","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"ia_needs_upload":true,"ia_date_first_change":"2018-09-30T00:00:00-07:00","date_blocked":null,"blocked":false,"appeal_from":null,"parent_docket":null,"tags":[],"panel":[]},"parties":[],"entries":[{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/docket-entries/3579942/","id":3579942,"docket":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/dockets/4202584/","recap_documents":[{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686772/","id":2686772,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/37/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.906006-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:10.539528-08:00","sha1":"4f17c230b19f9bc41fc630fb15937cd0e17d0439","page_count":2,"file_size":14486,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.37.0.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.37.0.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":"     Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 37        Filed 10/12/2007       Page 1 of 2\n\n\n\n                         UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\n                         FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA\n\n\n                                                      )\nMARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS,                           )\n                                                      )\n                Plaintiff,                            )\n                                                      )\nv.                                                    ) Civil Action No. 05-cv-1483\n                                                      )             (JDB)\nFANNIE MAE, et al.,                                   )\n                                                      )\n                Defendants.                           )\n                                                      )\n\n\n             JOINT STIPULATION OF DISMISSAL WITH PREJUDICE\n\n         Pursuant to Rule 41(a) of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, Plaintiff Marialice\n\nBathrus Williams and Defendants Federal National Mortgage Association (\u201cFannie\n\nMae\u201d), Richard Lawch, and Grace Huebscher (collectively, \u201cDefendants\u201d), do hereby\n\nstipulate to the dismissal with prejudice of this lawsuit, with each party to bear its own\n\nattorneys\u2019 fees and costs.\n\n                                       Respectfully submitted,\n\n\n                                           /s/ Michael W. Beasley\n                                       Michael W. Beasley (D. C. Bar No. 248930)\n                                       200 Park Avenue, Suite 106\n                                       Falls Church, Virginia 22046\n                                       Phone: (703) 533-5875\n                                       Fax: (703) 533-5876\n                                       E-Mail: beasleys2@verizon.net\n\n                                       Brian J. H. Lederer (D. C. Bar No. 184184)\n                                       3003 Van Ness Street, N. W., Suite W228\n                                       Washington, D. C. 20008\n                                       Phone: (202) 244-1715\n\n                                       Counsel for Plaintiff Marialice B. Williams\n\f  Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB   Document 37     Filed 10/12/2007      Page 2 of 2\n\n\n\n                                 /s/ Sarah A. Goldfrank\n                             Evelyn L. Becker (D. C. Bar No. 451163)\n                             Sarah A. Goldfrank (D. C. Bar No. 482382)\n                             Kyra A. Grundeman (D. C. Bar No. 493622)\n                             O\u2019Melveny & Myers, LLP\n                             1625 Eye Street, N. W.\n                             Washington, D. C. 20006\n                             Phone: (202) 383-5300\n                             Fax: (202) 383-5414\n\n                             Counsel for Defendants Federal National\n                             Mortgage Association, Richard Lawch and\n                             Grace Huebscher\n\n\n                             Jonathan L. Griffith (D. C. Bar No. 456080)\n                             Fannie Mae\n                             3900 Wisconsin Avenue, N. W.\n                             Washington, D. C. 20016\n                             Phone: (202) 752-6167\n                             Fax: (202) 752-4948\n\n                             Counsel for Defendant Federal National\n                             Mortgage Association\n\nOctober 12, 2007\n\n\n\n\n                                   2\n\f","ocr_status":2,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:43:13-07:00","document_number":"37","attachment_number":null,"pacer_doc_id":"0450877545","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":1,"description":"Stipulation of Dismissal","acms_document_guid":""}],"date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.898838-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:10.520059-08:00","date_filed":"2007-10-12","time_filed":null,"entry_number":37,"recap_sequence_number":"2007-10-12.001","pacer_sequence_number":null,"description":"STIPULATION of Dismissal with Prejudice (Joint) by MARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS. (Beasley, Michael)","tags":[]},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/docket-entries/3579941/","id":3579941,"docket":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/dockets/4202584/","recap_documents":[{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686770/","id":2686770,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/36/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.883458-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:10.475437-08:00","sha1":"9bbaba78d6b89a2f26fed2770dd5a76279f52481","page_count":2,"file_size":15209,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.36.0.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.36.0.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":"     Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 36         Filed 10/04/2007      Page 1 of 2\n\n\n\n                         UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\n                         FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA\n\n\n                                                      )\nMARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS,                           )\n                                                      )\n                Plaintiff,                            )\n                                                      )\nv.                                                    ) Civil Action No. 05-cv-1483\n                                                      )             (JDB)\nFANNIE MAE, et al.,                                   )\n                                                      )\n                Defendants.                           )\n                                                      )\n\n                  PLAINTIFF\u2019S UNOPPOSED MOTION FOR\n                 EXTENSION OF TIME TO FILE OPPOSITION\n            TO DEFENDANTS\u2019 MOTION FOR SUMMARY JUDGMENT\n\n         Plaintiff Marialice Bathrus Williams, by and through counsel, hereby moves for\n\nan additional extension of time to October 12, 2007, for filing her Opposition to the\n\nDefendants\u2019 Motion for Summary Judgment in this proceeding. The current deadline for\n\nthe filing of such Opposition is October 5, 2007.\n\n         The purpose of the requested extension of time is to permit the parties to\n\nconclude, execute and file settlement documents pursuant to Rule 41 of the Federal Rules\n\nof Civil Procedure. While it originally was anticipated that such actions would be\n\ncomplete by October 5, 2007, the parties are still reaching agreement on specific terms\n\nand language of the settlement agreement.\n\n         This motion has been discussed with counsel for the Defendants, and Defendants\n\ndo not oppose this further motion for additional time. Additionally, coordination has\n\nbeen accomplished to establish a recommended Defendants\u2019 Reply Brief date of\n\f  Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 36       Filed 10/04/2007      Page 2 of 2\n\n\n\nNovember 2, 2007, preserving the 21-day period in which Defendants may reply to any\n\nOpposition filed.\n\n       A proposed Order is provided herewith for the Court\u2019s consideration.\n\n                                            Respectfully submitted,\n\n                                                /s/ Michael W. Beasley\n                                            Michael W. Beasley, Esq.\n                                            200 Park Avenue, Suite 106\n                                            Falls Church, Virginia 22046\n                                            Phone: (703) 533-5875\n                                            E-Mail: beasleys2@verizon.net\n                                            Attorney for Plaintiff Marialice B. Williams\n\nOctober 4, 2007\n\n\n                            CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE\n\n       I hereby certify that one copy of the foregoing \u201cPlaintiff\u2019s Unopposed Motion for\n\nExtension of Time to Respond to Defendants\u2019 Motion for Summary Judgment,\u201d with\n\nproposed Order, has been served through the Court\u2019s ECF filing system to each of the\n\nfollowing named counsel for Defendants, this 4th day of October, 2007:\n\nSarah Alexander Goldfrank, Esq.\nEvelyn L. Becker, Esq.\nKyra Anne Grundeman, Esq.\nO\u2019Melveny & Myers, LLP\n1625 I Street, N. W.\nWashington, D. C. 20006\n\nJonathan Lee Griffith, Esq.\nFannie Mae\n3900 Wisconsin Avenue, N. W.\nWashington, D. C. 20016\n\n\n                                               /s/ Michael W. Beasley\n                                            Michael W. Beasley, Esq.\n                                            D. C. Bar No. 248930\n                                            Attorney for Plaintiff\n\n\n\n                                           2\n\f","ocr_status":2,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:42:25-07:00","document_number":"36","attachment_number":null,"pacer_doc_id":"0450828997","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":1,"description":"Motion for Extension of Time to File Response/Reply","acms_document_guid":""},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686771/","id":2686771,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/36/1/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.891090-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:10.503106-08:00","sha1":"2e5a434a3279b934e3e11b15c6a1626b8a93f108","page_count":2,"file_size":13093,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.36.1.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.36.1.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":" Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 36-2         Filed 10/04/2007      Page 1 of 2\n\n\n\n                        UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\n                        FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA\n\n\n                                                     )\nMARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS,                          )\n                                                     )\n               Plaintiff,                            )\n                                                     )\nv.                                                   ) Civil Action No. 05-cv-1483\n                                                     )             (JDB)\nFANNIE MAE, et al.,                                  )\n                                                     )\n               Defendants.                           )\n                                                     )\n\n\n                                         ORDER\n\n       This matter came before the Court on the unopposed motion of Plaintiff Williams\n\nfor a further extension of time to file her Opposition to the Defendants\u2019 Motion for\n\nSummary Judgment in this proceeding. Based upon the reasons set forth in the motion,\n\nthe Defendants\u2019 non-opposition, and the full record of this proceeding, it is hereby\n\nORDERED that Plaintiff\u2019s motion is GRANTED.\n\n       It is FURTHER ORDERED that Plaintiff shall file her Opposition to the\n\nDefendants\u2019 Motion for Summary Judgment on or prior to October 12, 2007. Any Reply\n\nby Defendants to Plaintiff\u2019s Opposition shall be filed on or prior to November 2, 2007.\n\n\n\n\n                                        UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE\n\f Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 36-2   Filed 10/04/2007   Page 2 of 2\n\n\n\nServe:\n\nMichael W. Beasley, Esq.\n200 Park Avenue\nSuite 106\nFalls Church, Virginia 22046\n\nBrian J. H. Lederer, Esq.\n3003 Van Ness Street, N. W.\nSuite W228\nWashington, D. C. 20008\n\nSarah Alexander Goldfrank, Esq.\nEvelyn L. Becker, Esq.\nKyra Anne Grundeman, Esq.\nO\u2019Melveny & Myers, LLP\n1625 I Street, N. W.\nWashington, D. C. 20006\n\nJonathan Lee Griffith, Esq.\nFannie Mae\n3900 Wisconsin Avenue, N. W.\nWashington, D. C. 20016\n\n\n\n\n                                       2\n\f","ocr_status":2,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:46:13-07:00","document_number":"36","attachment_number":1,"pacer_doc_id":"0450829909","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":2,"description":"Text of Proposed Order","acms_document_guid":""}],"date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.878076-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:10.488575-08:00","date_filed":"2007-10-04","time_filed":null,"entry_number":36,"recap_sequence_number":"2007-10-04.002","pacer_sequence_number":null,"description":"Unopposed MOTION for Extension of Time to File Response/Reply as to [33] MOTION for Summary Judgment by MARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS (Attachments: # (1) Text of Proposed Order)(Beasley, Michael)","tags":[]},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/docket-entries/3579940/","id":3579940,"docket":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/dockets/4202584/","recap_documents":[{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686768/","id":2686768,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/35/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.865549-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:10.420690-08:00","sha1":"8b962fe494c9adf3836d837774c2b33a60f25176","page_count":2,"file_size":15009,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.35.0.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.35.0.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":"     Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 35         Filed 09/13/2007      Page 1 of 2\n\n\n\n                         UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\n                         FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA\n\n\n                                                       )\nMARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS,                            )\n                                                       )\n                Plaintiff,                             )\n                                                       )\nv.                                                     ) Civil Action No. 05-cv-1483\n                                                       )             (JDB)\nFANNIE MAE, et al.,                                    )\n                                                       )\n                Defendants.                            )\n                                                       )\n\n                PLAINTIFF\u2019S SECOND CONSENT MOTION FOR\n                 EXTENSION OF TIME TO FILE OPPOSITION\n            TO DEFENDANTS\u2019 MOTION FOR SUMMARY JUDGMENT\n\n         Plaintiff Marialice Bathrus Williams, by and through counsel, hereby moves for\n\nan additional extension of time to October 5, 2007, for filing her Opposition to the\n\nDefendants\u2019 Motion for Summary Judgment in this proceeding. The current deadline for\n\nthe filing of such Opposition is September 21, 2007.\n\n         The purpose of the requested extension of time is to permit the parties to\n\nconclude, execute and file settlement documents pursuant to Rule 41 of the Federal Rules\n\nof Civil Procedure.\n\n         This motion has been discussed with counsel for the Defendants, and consent has\n\nbeen given. Additionally, coordination has been effected to establish a recommended\n\nDefendants\u2019 Reply Brief date of October 26, 2007, preserving the 21-day period in which\n\nDefendants may reply to any Opposition filed.\n\n         A proposed Order is provided herewith for the Court\u2019s consideration.\n\f  Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 35        Filed 09/13/2007      Page 2 of 2\n\n\n\n                                             Respectfully submitted,\n\n\n\n                                                 /s/ Michael W. Beasley\n                                             Michael W. Beasley, Esq.\n                                             200 Park Avenue, Suite 106\n                                             Falls Church, Virginia 22046\n                                             Phone: (703) 533-5875\n                                             Fax: (703) 533-5876\n                                             E-Mail: beasleys2@verizon.net\n                                             Attorney for Plaintiff Marialice B. Williams\n\nSeptember 13, 2007\n\n\n                              CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE\n\n        I hereby certify that one copy of the foregoing \u201cPlaintiff\u2019s Second Consent\n\nMotion for Extension of Time to Respond to Defendants\u2019 Motion for Summary\n\nJudgment,\u201d with proposed Order, has been served through the Court\u2019s ECF filing system\n\nto each of the following named counsel for Defendants, this 13th day of September,\n\n2007:\n\nSarah Alexander Goldfrank, Esq.\nEvelyn L. Becker, Esq.\nKyra Anne Grundeman, Esq.\nO\u2019Melveny & Myers, LLP\n1625 I Street, N. W.\nWashington, D. C. 20006\n\nJonathan Lee Griffith, Esq.\nFannie Mae\n3900 Wisconsin Avenue, N. W.\nWashington, D. C. 20016\n\n\n                                                /s/ Michael W. Beasley\n                                             Michael W. Beasley, Esq.\n                                             D. C. Bar No. 248930\n                                             Attorney for Plaintiff\n\n\n\n\n                                            2\n\f","ocr_status":2,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:47:40-07:00","document_number":"35","attachment_number":null,"pacer_doc_id":"0450428591","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":1,"description":"Motion for Extension of Time to File Response/Reply","acms_document_guid":""},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686769/","id":2686769,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/35/1/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.872478-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:10.446868-08:00","sha1":"cc5c7aa420a380c6aa5f2962861fb8f7a29cb404","page_count":2,"file_size":13060,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.35.1.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.35.1.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":" Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 35-2        Filed 09/13/2007       Page 1 of 2\n\n\n\n                        UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\n                        FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA\n\n\n                                                     )\nMARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS,                          )\n                                                     )\n               Plaintiff,                            )\n                                                     )\nv.                                                   ) Civil Action No. 05-cv-1483\n                                                     )             (JDB)\nFANNIE MAE, et al.,                                  )\n                                                     )\n               Defendants.                           )\n                                                     )\n\n\n                                         ORDER\n\n       This matter came before the Court on the motion of Plaintiff Williams for an\n\nextension of time to file her Opposition to the Defendants\u2019 Motion for Summary\n\nJudgment in this proceeding. Based upon the reasons set forth in the motion, the\n\nDefendants\u2019 consent, and the full record of this proceeding, it is hereby ORDERED that\n\nPlaintiff\u2019s motion is GRANTED.\n\n       It is FURTHER ORDERED that Plaintiff shall file her Opposition to the\n\nDefendants\u2019 Motion for Summary Judgment on or prior to October 5, 2007. Any Reply\n\nby Defendants to Plaintiff\u2019s Opposition shall be filed on or prior to October 26, 2007.\n\n\n\n\n                                        UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE\n\f Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 35-2   Filed 09/13/2007   Page 2 of 2\n\n\n\nServe:\n\nMichael W. Beasley, Esq.\n200 Park Avenue\nSuite 106\nFalls Church, Virginia 22046\n\nBrian J. H. Lederer, Esq.\n3003 Van Ness Street, N. W.\nSuite W228\nWashington, D. C. 20008\n\nSarah Alexander Goldfrank, Esq.\nEvelyn L. Becker, Esq.\nKyra Anne Grundeman, Esq.\nO\u2019Melveny & Myers, LLP\n1625 I Street, N. W.\nWashington, D. C. 20006\n\nJonathan Lee Griffith, Esq.\nFannie Mae\n3900 Wisconsin Avenue, N. W.\nWashington, D. C. 20016\n\n\n\n\n                                       2\n\f","ocr_status":2,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:43:45-07:00","document_number":"35","attachment_number":1,"pacer_doc_id":"0450431282","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":2,"description":"Text of Proposed Order","acms_document_guid":""}],"date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.858622-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:10.431822-08:00","date_filed":"2007-09-13","time_filed":null,"entry_number":35,"recap_sequence_number":"2007-09-13.002","pacer_sequence_number":null,"description":"Consent MOTION for Extension of Time to File Response/Reply as to [33] MOTION for Summary Judgment by MARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS (Attachments: # (1) Text of Proposed Order)(Beasley, Michael)","tags":[]},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/docket-entries/3579939/","id":3579939,"docket":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/dockets/4202584/","recap_documents":[{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686766/","id":2686766,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/34/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.842862-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:10.332016-08:00","sha1":"5caf3f44b820c24324df9a36b30ab59a720cb7ed","page_count":3,"file_size":17529,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.34.0.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.34.0.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":"     Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 34         Filed 07/09/2007      Page 1 of 3\n\n\n\n                         UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\n                         FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA\n\n\n                                                      )\nMARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS,                           )\n                                                      )\n                Plaintiff,                            )\n                                                      )\nv.                                                    ) Civil Action No. 05-cv-1483\n                                                      )             (JDB)\nFANNIE MAE, et al.,                                   )\n                                                      )\n                Defendants.                           )\n                                                      )\n\n\n                   PLAINTIFF\u2019S CONSENT MOTION FOR\n                 EXTENSION OF TIME TO FILE OPPOSITION\n            TO DEFENDANTS\u2019 MOTION FOR SUMMARY JUDGMENT\n\n         Plaintiff Marialice Bathrus Williams, by and through counsel, hereby moves for\n\nan extension of time to Friday, September 21, 2007, for filing her Opposition to the\n\nDefendants\u2019 Motion for Summary Judgment in this proceeding. This motion has been\n\ndiscussed with counsel for the Defendants, and consent therefore has been given.\n\n         In support hereof, the following information is provided:\n\n         1. Defendants filed their Motion for Summary Judgment with the Court on June\n\n21, 2007. The deadline for the filing of Plaintiff\u2019s Opposition currently is established as\n\nno later than July 23, 2007, as set by the Court\u2019s Minute Order entered December 15,\n\n2006.\n\n         2. Plaintiff and Plaintiff\u2019s counsel have been substantially and materially delayed\n\nin preparing the Opposition because of the sudden death of case co-counsel Harley J.\n\nDaniels, Esq., on June 26, 2007. Prior to his death, Mr. Daniels had assumed the primary\n\f  Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 34         Filed 07/09/2007        Page 2 of 3\n\n\n\ncounsel role for Plaintiff, and he has been critically involved in all phases of this\n\nproceeding.\n\n       3. Moreover, the two remaining counsel for Plaintiff in this case are significantly\n\ninvolved in Mr. Daniels\u2019 Estate, which includes provision of care and guardianship of a\n\nminor child, and a number of other complicating issues. Mr. Beasley is the named\n\nPersonal Representative of the Estate, and Mr. Lederer is the attorney for the Estate. Mr.\n\nBeasley and Mr. Lederer also are each involved in several other ongoing Federal and\n\nState Court proceedings.\n\n       4. For all of these reasons, Plaintiff and counsel will require a period of\n\napproximately two additional months to complete the Opposition filing.\n\n       5. The original schedule for the filing of Defendants\u2019 Reply was set for three\n\nweeks following the filing of Plaintiff\u2019s Opposition (pursuant to the Court\u2019s Minute\n\nOrder of December 15, 2006). If this period is maintained following the proposed\n\nrevised date for the filing of Plaintiff\u2019s Opposition (i.e. September 21, 2007), the Reply\n\nwould be due not later than October 12, 2007. The parties propose that this be the\n\nrevised date for the reply submission, should this motion be granted.\n\n       A proposed Order is provided herewith for the Court\u2019s consideration.\n\n                                               Respectfully submitted,\n\n                                                   /s/ Michael W. Beasley\n                                               Michael W. Beasley, Esq.\n                                               D. C. Bar No. 248930\n                                               200 Park Avenue, Suite 106\n                                               Falls Church, Virginia 22046\n                                               Phone: (703) 533-5875\n                                               E-Mail: beasleys2@verizon.net\n\n                                               Attorney for Plaintiff Marialice B. Williams\nAttachment 1: Proposed Order\n\n\n\n                                              2\n\f  Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 34       Filed 07/09/2007       Page 3 of 3\n\n\n\n                             CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE\n\n       I hereby certify that one copy of the foregoing \u201cPlaintiff\u2019s Consent Motion for\n\nExtension of Time to Respond to Defendants\u2019 Motion for Summary Judgment,\u201d with\n\nproposed Order, has been served through the Court\u2019s ECF filing system to each of the\n\nfollowing named counsel for Defendants, this 9th day of July, 2007:\n\nSarah Alexander Goldfrank, Esq.\nEvelyn L. Becker, Esq.\nKyra Anne Grundeman, Esq.\nO\u2019Melveny & Myers, LLP\n1625 I Street, N. W.\nWashington, D. C. 20006\n\nJonathan Lee Griffith, Esq.\nFannie Mae\n3900 Wisconsin Avenue, N. W.\nWashington, D. C. 20016\n\n\n                                               /s/ Michael W. Beasley\n                                            Michael W. Beasley, Esq.\n                                            D. C. Bar No. 248930\n                                            Attorney for Plaintiff\n\n\n\n\n                                            3\n\f","ocr_status":2,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:39:35-07:00","document_number":"34","attachment_number":null,"pacer_doc_id":"0450896859","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":1,"description":"Motion for Extension of Time to File Response/Reply","acms_document_guid":""},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686767/","id":2686767,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/34/1/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.851470-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:10.376546-08:00","sha1":"51b74895c734689e1c4d998afc85ad927c822ec0","page_count":2,"file_size":13123,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.34.1.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.34.1.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":" Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB         Document 34-2        Filed 07/09/2007       Page 1 of 2\n\n\n\n                       UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\n                       FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA\n\n\n                                                    )\nMARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS,                         )\n                                                    )\n              Plaintiff,                            )\n                                                    )\nv.                                                  ) Civil Action No. 05-cv-1483\n                                                    )             (JDB)\nFANNIE MAE, et al.,                                 )\n                                                    )\n              Defendants.                           )\n                                                    )\n\n\n                                        ORDER\n\n       This matter came before the Court on the motion of Plaintiff Williams for an\n\nextension of time to file her Opposition to the Defendants\u2019 Motion for Summary\n\nJudgment in this proceeding. Based upon the reasons set forth in the motion, the\n\nDefendants\u2019 consent, and the full record of this proceeding, it is hereby ORDERED that\n\nPlaintiff\u2019s motion is GRANTED.\n\n       It is FURTHER ORDERED that Plaintiff shall file her Opposition to the\n\nDefendants\u2019 Motion for Summary Judgment on or prior to September 21, 2007, and that\n\nDefendants shall file any Reply pleading on or prior to October 12, 2007.\n\n\n\n\n                                               UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE\n\f Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 34-2   Filed 07/09/2007   Page 2 of 2\n\n\n\nServe:\n\nMichael W. Beasley, Esq.\n200 Park Avenue\nSuite 106\nFalls Church, Virginia 22046\n\nBrian J. H. Lederer, Esq.\n3003 Van Ness Street, N. W.\nSuite W228\nWashington, D. C. 20008\n\nSarah Alexander Goldfrank, Esq.\nEvelyn L. Becker, Esq.\nKyra Anne Grundeman, Esq.\nO\u2019Melveny & Myers, LLP\n1625 I Street, N. W.\nWashington, D. C. 20006\n\nJonathan Lee Griffith, Esq.\nFannie Mae\n3900 Wisconsin Avenue, N. W.\nWashington, D. C. 20016\n\n\n\n\n                                       2\n\f","ocr_status":2,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:40:50-07:00","document_number":"34","attachment_number":1,"pacer_doc_id":"0450897216","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":2,"description":"Text of Proposed Order","acms_document_guid":""}],"date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.835470-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:10.339663-08:00","date_filed":"2007-07-09","time_filed":null,"entry_number":34,"recap_sequence_number":"2007-07-09.002","pacer_sequence_number":null,"description":"Consent MOTION for Extension of Time to File Response/Reply as to [33] MOTION for Summary Judgment by MARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS (Attachments: # (1) Text of Proposed Order)(Beasley, Michael)","tags":[]},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/docket-entries/3579938/","id":3579938,"docket":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/dockets/4202584/","recap_documents":[{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686740/","id":2686740,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/33/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.641037-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:09.482581-08:00","sha1":"b390e99ff49439fc30c9a8912e1c55a3eec06d01","page_count":2,"file_size":19184,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.0.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.0.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":"     Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 33      Filed 06/21/2007       Page 1 of 2\n\n\n\n                      IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\n                          FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA\n\n____________________________________\nMARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS,          :\n                                     :             Civil Action No. 1:05CV01483\n      Plaintiff,                     :\n                                     :\n      vs.                            :             Judge John D. Bates\n                                     :\nFEDERAL NATIONAL MORTGAGE            :\n      ASSOCIATION, et al.            :\n      :\n                                     :\n      Defendants.                    :\n____________________________________:\n\n   DEFENDANTS FEDERAL NATIONAL MORTGAGE ASSOCIATION, RICHARD\n   LAWCH, AND GRACE HUEBSCHER\u2019S MOTION FOR SUMMARY JUDGMENT\n\n       Defendants Federal National Mortgage Association (\u201cFannie Mae\u201d), Richard Lawch, and\n\nGrace Huebscher (collectively, \u201cdefendants\u201d) respectfully move this Court for summary\n\njudgment pursuant to FED. R. CIV. P. 56.\n\n\n\n\nJune 21, 2007                                      Respectfully submitted,\n\n\n                                                   /s/ Sarah A. Goldfrank             ____\n                                                   Evelyn L. Becker (D.C. Bar No. 451163)\n                                                   Sarah A. Goldfrank (D.C. Bar No. 482382)\n                                                   Kyra A. Grundeman (D.C. Bar No. 493622)\n                                                   O\u2019Melveny & Myers LLP\n                                                   1625 Eye Street, N.W.\n                                                   Washington, D.C. 20006\n                                                   (202) 383-5300 (phone)\n                                                   (202) 383-5414 (fax)\n\n                                                   Counsel for Defendants Federal National\n                                                   Mortgage Association, Richard Lawch and\n                                                   Grace Huebscher\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB   Document 33      Filed 06/21/2007      Page 2 of 2\n\n\n\n                                       Jonathan L. Griffith (D.C. Bar No. 456080)\n                                       Fannie Mae\n                                       3900 Wisconsin Avenue, N.W.\n                                       Washington, D.C. 20016\n                                       (202) 752-6167 (phone)\n                                       (202) 752-4948 (fax)\n\n                                       Counsel for Defendant Federal National\n                                       Mortgage Association\n\n\n\n\n                                2\n\f","ocr_status":2,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:47:07-07:00","document_number":"33","attachment_number":null,"pacer_doc_id":"04501888815","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":1,"description":"Motion for Summary Judgment","acms_document_guid":""},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686741/","id":2686741,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/33/1/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.647476-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:09.516384-08:00","sha1":"206a993d3b7e2ec0876355989f62322d72ed0e5e","page_count":36,"file_size":201962,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.1.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.1.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":"    Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 33-2         Filed 06/21/2007      Page 1 of 36\n\n\n\n                       IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\n                           FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA\n\n____________________________________\nMARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS,          :\n                                     :               Civil Action No. 1:05CV01483\n      Plaintiff,                     :\n                                     :\n      vs.                            :               Judge John D. Bates\n                                     :\nFEDERAL NATIONAL MORTGAGE            :\n      ASSOCIATION, et al.            :\n                                     :\n                                     :\n      Defendants.                    :\n____________________________________:\n\n   DEFENDANTS FEDERAL NATIONAL MORTGAGE ASSOCIATION, RICHARD\n  LAWCH, AND GRACE HUEBSCHER\u2019S MEMORANDUM IN SUPPORT OF THEIR\n                 MOTION FOR SUMMARY JUDGMENT\n\n       Defendants Federal National Mortgage Association (\u201cFannie Mae\u201d), Richard Lawch, and\n\nGrace Huebscher (collectively, \u201cdefendants\u201d) respectfully submit this memorandum in support\n\nof their motion for summary judgment pursuant to FED. R. CIV. P. 56.\n\n                                         INTRODUCTION\n\n       Plaintiff Marialice Williams (\u201cplaintiff\u201d), an African-American female formerly\n\nemployed by Fannie Mae, filed this action on July 28, 2005 alleging, among other things, that\n\nFannie Mae and two of its officers discriminated against, tortiously interfered with and conspired\n\nagainst her and her business after she left Fannie Mae\u2019s employment in June 1998. In June 2006,\n\nafter defendants filed dispositive motions related to plaintiff\u2019s amended complaint, this Court\n\nnarrowed the case to two discrete claims based on plaintiff\u2019s attempts to contract with Fannie\n\nMae and others: (1) a claim for racial discrimination under 42 U.S.C. \u00a7 1981 (\u201cSection 1981\u201d)\n\nfor Fannie Mae\u2019s purported refusal to contract with plaintiff concerning a May 2001 insurance\n\nproposal, and (2) a claim for \u201ctortious interference\u201d based on defendants\u2019 purported interference\n\f    Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 33-2        Filed 06/21/2007       Page 2 of 36\n\n\n\nwith plaintiff\u2019s co-brokerage relationship with CAM Financial Services, Inc. (\u201cCAM\u201d), a third\n\nparty that had done business with Fannie Mae in the past. (See Memorandum Opinion (\u201cMem.\n\nOp.\u201d) (Docket No. 19) at 24-25.) After eight months of full discovery, the undisputed record\n\nreveals that defendants are entitled to summary judgment on both claims.\n\n       As a threshold matter, there are three defenses applicable to both of plaintiff\u2019s claims.\n\nFirst, both are barred by the applicable three-year statute of limitations (see Mem. Op. at 19).\n\n(See Section I, infra.) In defendants\u2019 prior summary judgment motion, plaintiff avoided\n\nsummary judgment on her Section 1981 claim by amending her complaint to allege that she did\n\nnot actually discover defendants\u2019 alleged misconduct until shortly after an October 2003 meeting\n\nwith Fannie Mae on captive insurance, and arguing that additional discovery was necessary\n\nunder FED. R. CIV. P. 56(f). In that discovery, plaintiff\u2019s own deposition testimony proved that\n\nthis meeting occurred in August of 2001, not in October 2003. Thus, plaintiff could have\n\npursued her allegations in 2001, and her claim is time-barred. Moreover, plaintiff also admitted\n\nthat her tortious interference claim is based upon Fannie Mae\u2019s refusal to do business with her,\n\nconceding that her tortious interference claim is simply a restatement of her Section 1981 claim.\n\nBecause this Court previously concluded that the only specific proposal to Fannie Mae that\n\nplaintiff could identify is the May 2001 insurance proposal, this claim is thus similarly barred by\n\nthe applicable three-year statute of limitations.\n\n       Second, both claims are barred because plaintiff\u2019s company, Risk Mitigation Strategists,\n\nLLC (\u201cRMS\u201d), not plaintiff, sought to contract with Fannie Mae with respect to the May 2001\n\ninsurance proposal, and plaintiff, as an individual, has no standing to assert these claims. (See\n\nSection II, infra.) Although plaintiff owned RMS, her Section 1981 claim is nonetheless barred\n\nby the Supreme Court\u2019s decision in Domino\u2019s Pizza, Inc. v. McDonald, 126 S. Ct. 1246 (2006),\n\n\n\n\n                                                    2\n\f    Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 33-2         Filed 06/21/2007       Page 3 of 36\n\n\n\nwhich precludes an individual owner or shareholder from bringing a claim under Section 1981\n\nbased on a defendant\u2019s refusal to contract with a separate corporate entity. The same logic\n\napplies to plaintiff\u2019s interference claim because it was the corporation, RMS, that had any\n\neconomic or contractual expectation.\n\n       Third, there are not, under either claim, any colorable damages because plaintiff has not\n\npresented evidence of any actual losses sustained in connection with Fannie Mae\u2019s refusal to\n\naccept her May 2001 insurance proposal. (See Section III, infra.) Indeed, under plaintiff\u2019s own\n\ntheory no damages exist because Fannie Mae never pursued this proposal with anyone.\n\n       Even if the court were to reject these common defenses, plaintiff\u2019s two claims suffer from\n\nnumerous individual defects. First, the undisputed facts demonstrate that plaintiff cannot make\n\nout a case of race discrimination under Section 1981. (See Section IV, infra.) In her Amended\n\nComplaint, plaintiff alleges that Fannie Mae pursued the May 2001 insurance proposal with\n\nCraig Ott, a white male, because it did not want to do business with an African-American. The\n\nundisputed facts establish, however, that Fannie Mae did not actually pursue the business\n\nproposal with Mr. Ott or anybody else. Rather, the company determined that such business was\n\ninconsistent with its basic business model. Plaintiff cannot rebut this legitimate business\n\ndecision.\n\n       Second, plaintiff\u2019s tortious interference claim suffers equally obvious defects. As an\n\ninitial matter, as noted above, plaintiff admitted in her deposition that this claim is based on\n\nFannie Mae\u2019s purported refusal to do business with her and a company cannot interfere with its\n\nown contracts. (See Section V.A, infra.) Next, discovery has shown that plaintiff\u2019s \u201cagreement\u201d\n\nwith CAM offered nothing more than a hope of future business and not the reasonable likelihood\n\nof a contract necessary to establish a valid business expectancy under the law. (See Section V.B,\n\n\n\n\n                                                  3\n\f     Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB         Document 33-2          Filed 06/21/2007      Page 4 of 36\n\n\n\ninfra.) And even if plaintiff had a cognizable business expectancy, discovery has failed to\n\nidentify any admissible evidence of intent necessary to sustain her claim. (See Section V.C,\n\ninfra.) Finally, plaintiff has not produced any admissible evidence of causation. (See Section\n\nV.D, infra.) To the contrary, CAM\u2019s president testified that he knew of no reason why CAM\n\nwould have terminated its co-brokerage agreement with the plaintiff.\n\n                                          BACKGROUND\n\nI.     THE PARTIES AND OTHER ENTITIES.\n\n       A.      FANNIE MAE, RICHARD LAWCH, AND GRACE HUEBSCHER.\n\n       Fannie Mae is a shareholder-owned, congressionally chartered federal instrumentality\n\nthat was established to carry out vital public policies prescribed by statute: to create a secondary\n\nmarket for residential mortgage financing, stimulate the flow of private capital into housing, and\n\nimprove the affordability of homeownership. See 12 U.S.C. \u00a7 1716. Fannie Mae does not make\n\nloans directly to consumers and, indeed, it is statutorily precluded from doing so. See id.\n\nInstead, Fannie Mae fulfills its important federal mission through its purchase or securitization\n\nactivities, which help provide primary market lenders with a ready source of capital to fund low-,\n\nmoderate-, and middle-income housing. See 12 U.S.C. \u00a7\u00a71716, 1719. This lawsuit centers\n\naround one aspect of Fannie Mae\u2019s business, its multifamily purchase and securitization\n\nactivities with a special class of lenders involved in the Delegated Underwriting and Servicing\n\n(\u201cDUS\u201d) program. Fannie Mae\u2019s DUS program involves a small group of multifamily lenders\n\nwho have the right to commit Fannie Mae, on a loan-by-loan basis, to purchase multifamily\n\nloans. (See March 25, 2003 Huebscher Dep. at 14:7-15, attached hereto at Exhibit A1.) In\n\nexchange, these DUS lenders share the risk of loss with Fannie Mae. (See id.; March 28, 2007\n\nWilliams Dep. at 27:4-13, attached hereto at Exhibit B.)\n\n\n\n\n                                                 4\n\f    Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB            Document 33-2       Filed 06/21/2007      Page 5 of 36\n\n\n\n       Fannie Mae has a long-standing commitment to diversity in all aspects of its business.\n\nThat commitment has not gone unnoticed: in just the first six months of 2007, the corporation\n\nhas been honored with awards that include:\n\n       \u2022       \u201cHispanic Corporate 100\u201d \u2013 Hispanic Magazine (February 2007);\n\n       \u2022      \u201cAmerica's Top 50 Corporations for Multicultural Business Opportunities\u201d \u2013\n       DiversityBusiness.com (March 2007); and,\n\n       \u2022       \u201c40 Best Companies for African Americans\u201d \u2013 Black Enterprise (June 2007). 1\n\nImportantly, Fannie Mae\u2019s dedication to diversity and specifically its efforts to work with\n\nMinority Women-Owned Businesses (\u201cMWOB\u201d) has been a resounding success: between 1998\n\nand 2003 (the time period relevant to plaintiff\u2019s claims), MWOB made up between 18 and 21%\n\nof its discretionary spending. (See Fannie Mae\u2019s Interrogatory Responses (\u201cFannie Mae\u2019s\n\nInterrog. Resp.\u201d) No. 3, attached hereto at Exhibit C.)\n\n       Defendant Richard Lawch has been employed by Fannie Mae since 1991, and currently\n\nholds the position of Senior Vice President of Community Investments. (See Declaration of\n\nRichard Lawch, (\u201cLawch Decl.\u201d), \u00b6 1, attached hereto at Exhibit D.) Defendant Grace\n\nHuebscher has been employed by Fannie Mae since 1996, and currently holds the position of\n\nVice President for Capital Markets. (See Declaration of Grace Huebscher, (\u201cHuebscher Decl.\u201d),\n\n\u00b6 1, attached hereto at Exhibit A.)\n\n       B.      PLAINTIFF AND RMS.\n\n       Plaintiff was employed by Fannie Mae as a director in its multifamily unit from January\n\n1990 through June 1998 when she voluntarily left to join CAM. (See Am. Compl. (Docket. No.\n\n9), \u00b6\u00b6 11; March 28, 2007 Williams Dep. at 73:19-22.) After she resigned from Fannie Mae,\n\n\n1\n         See\nhttp://www.fanniemae.com/aboutfm/awards/2007.jhtml?p=About+Fannie+Mae&s=Awards+%26+Achievements&t\n=2007+Awards+%26amp;+Achievements (last accessed on June 19, 2007).\n\n\n                                                 5\n\f    Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 33-2        Filed 06/21/2007       Page 6 of 36\n\n\n\nhowever, she was unable to reach a mutually-acceptable agreement with CAM, and decided to\n\nopen her own company. (See March 21, 2003 Williams Dep. at 226:5-10, attached hereto at\n\nExhibit E.) In October 1998, plaintiff formed RMS, a limited liability company, wholly-owned\n\nby plaintiff, with the sole intent that RMS would contract with Fannie Mae to \u201cpursue the\n\nbusiness [plaintiff] had been doing at Fannie Mae prior to [her] departure.\u201d (Am. Compl. \u00b6\u00b6 31-\n\n32; March 28, 2007 Williams Dep. at 20:17-20; May 7, 2007 Williams Dep. at 300:19-20,\n\nattached hereto at Exhibit F; District of Columbia Certificate of Revocation, attached hereto at\n\nExhibit G.) The District of Columbia Department of Consumer and Regulatory Affairs revoked\n\nRMS\u2019s articles of incorporation in 2003 after the company \u201cfailed and/or refused to file reports\n\nand pay all fees and dues owing prior to June 16, 2002 and 2003.\u201d (District of Columbia\n\nCertificate of Revocation.)\n\n       C.      CAM.\n\n       CAM is a financial services company that does both insurance and mortgage brokerage\n\nfor multifamily properties. (See Jones Dep. at 7:17-20, attached hereto at Exhibit H.) In 1997,\n\nwhile plaintiff still worked at Fannie Mae, Fannie Mae and CAM entered into a memorandum of\n\nunderstanding concerning multifamily credit risk insurance. (See CAM Amended Complaint \u00b6\n\n16, attached hereto at Exhibit I.) From 1997 through 1999, Fannie Mae used CAM as an\n\ninsurance broker for the procurement of multifamily credit risk insurance. By early 1999,\n\nhowever, the companies had a dispute with respect to the extent of their contractual relationship.\n\n(Id. \u00b6 46.) In the end, CAM brokered five non-DUS Fannie Mae insurance policies, two with\n\nAIG (one in 1997 and one in 1998) and three with General Star National Insurance Company (all\n\nin 1999). (Id. \u00b6\u00b6 19, 22 & 45.)\n\n       CAM and Fannie Mae did not enter into any transactions following 1999, and all\n\nprospects for new business relationships between the two ended in December 2001 when CAM\n\n\n                                                6\n\f      Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB         Document 33-2         Filed 06/21/2007       Page 7 of 36\n\n\n\nfiled suit against Fannie Mae for millions of dollars in compensatory and punitive damages on\n\nthe basis that its brokerage relationship with Fannie Mae had allegedly been \u201cdestroye[d].\u201d (Id.\n\n\u00b6\u00b6 48, 85, 96.) Defendants have not had any business interaction with CAM since the filing of\n\nthe lawsuit in December 2001. (See Huebscher Decl. \u00b6\u00b6 4, 5; Lawch Decl. \u00b6\u00b6 3, 4.) Ultimately,\n\nthe parties voluntarily dismissed the litigation after agreeing to arbitrate the underlying claims.\n\n(See Dismissal Order, attached hereto at Exhibit J.)\n\nII.     THE MAY 2001 PROPOSAL.\n\n        In May 2001, RMS made a proposal to Fannie Mae (hereinafter, \u201cMay 2001 Proposal\u201d)\n\nto \u201clay[] off risk associated with [Fannie Mae\u2019s] Delegated Underwriting and Servicing (\u201cDUS\u201d)\n\nProgram,\u201d (Williams Interrog. Resp. No. 3, attached hereto at Exhibit K) by \u201csecur[ing] the\n\ninsurance and the DUS lenders as clients and bring[ing] the deal back to Fannie Mae.\u201d\n\n(Williams Interrog. Resp. No. 4; see also March 28, 2007 Williams Dep. at 36:13-20; May 7,\n\n2007 Williams Dep. at 154:10-14; Jones Dep. Exh. 2, attached hereto as Exhibit H1.) RMS\n\nsought to lay-off risk by providing insurance for certain losses that a DUS lender otherwise\n\nwould have to bear in the event of default on a loan.\n\n        On May 15, 2001, CAM\u2019s president, Bob Jones, e-mailed Stephen Noble from Zurich\n\nInsurance, an insurer to whom CAM was pitching the proposal, a document from RMS entitled\n\n\u201cOpportunity To Provide Insurance Coverage For . . . Fannie Mae\u2019s Delegated Underwriting\n\nAnd Servicing Program,\u201d which outlined the May 2001 Proposal. (March 28, 2007 Williams\n\nDep. Exh. 1, attached hereto at Exhibit B1.) The cover e-mail, which was also sent to plaintiff,\n\nindicated that RMS represented three DUS lenders and that Mr. Jones and plaintiff hoped to be\n\nable to share performance data \u201cbased on your interest in a potential transaction.\u201d (March 28,\n\n2007 Williams Dep. Exh. 1, at FNMW.MBW.008015.)\n\n\n\n\n                                                  7\n\f    Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 33-2         Filed 06/21/2007       Page 8 of 36\n\n\n\n       On May 23, 2001, plaintiff sent an e-mail to defendant Huebscher with an \u201cupdate from\n\nRMS,\u201d indicating that several insurers had expressed interest in RMS\u2019s May 2001 Proposal and\n\nasking a number of questions. (Jones Dep. Exh. 7, at FNMA.MBW.008031, attached hereto at\n\nExhibit H3.) On May 31, 2001, defendant Huebscher forwarded the e-mail to her supervisor,\n\ndefendant Lawch, indicating that plaintiff was interested in pursuing insurance for the DUS\n\nprogram. (See Jones Dep. Exh. 7, at FNMA.MBW.006230.) Defendant Huebscher\u2019s initial\n\nreaction was that it wouldn\u2019t be worth pursuing. (Id.) She explained that the proposal \u201cwasn\u2019t\n\nreally consistent with what I understood our business model to be.\u201d (March 26, 2003 Huebscher\n\nDep. at 463:21-22, attached hereto at Exhibit A1.) Because lenders could commit Fannie Mae to\n\nthe purchase of loans without prior approval, Fannie Mae wanted lenders to share the risk of a\n\nloan default. In short, as defendant Huebscher put it, Fannie Mae wanted to make sure that the\n\nlenders had \u201cskin [in] the game.\u201d (March 26, 2003 Huebscher Dep. at 449:12-25, attached\n\nhereto at Exhibit A1; March 27, 2003 Huebscher Dep. at 519:19-23, attached hereto at Exhibit\n\nA1.) Allowing lenders to insure this risk would remove a strong incentive to underwrite the\n\nloans properly, and thus \u201c[i]f our programs are all delegated and the individuals that are selling\n\nand servicing for us are doing the underwriting and credit-risk analysis for us on our behalf,\n\n[Fannie Mae] [] like[d] them to have a stake in the game.\u201d (March 26, 2003 Huebscher Dep. at\n\n449:21-25.)\n\n       While laying-off the risk of DUS lenders was generally inconsistent with Fannie Mae\u2019s\n\nbusiness model, at the time defendants received RMS\u2019s May 2001 Proposal, the Office of\n\nFederal Housing Enterprise Oversight (OFHEO) \u2014 the federal agency responsible for regulation\n\nof Fannie Mae\u2019s business \u2014 was in the midst of finalizing a new, risk-based capital rule, and\n\nFannie Mae was concerned about the regulation\u2019s potential impact on its DUS program. (See\n\n\n\n\n                                                 8\n\f     Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB               Document 33-2            Filed 06/21/2007           Page 9 of 36\n\n\n\nMarch 26, 2003 Huebscher Dep. at 463:7-14.) Thus, defendant Lawch indicated \u201cif Ofheo [sic]\n\ncomes back with bad RBC Rules we may be interested [in insurance].\u201d (Jones Dep. Exh. 7, at\n\nFNMA.MBW.006230.) 2 As defendant Huebscher testified, \u201cwe were in the process of receiving\n\nand finalizing what were going to be Fannie Mae\u2019s risk based capital guidelines . . . [a]nd so I\n\nthink [Lawch] was trying to keep all of his options open.\u201d (See March 26, 2003 Huebscher Dep.\n\nat 463:7-14.)\n\n        In the end, OFHEO\u2019s final risk-based capital rule obviated any need for Fannie Mae to\n\npursue proposals involving the laying-off of DUS risk. In July 2001, shortly after Fannie Mae\n\nreceived plaintiff\u2019s e-mail, OFHEO issued its final rule. (See Risk-Based Capital, 66 Fed. Reg.\n\n47730 (September 13, 2001) (codified at 12 C.F.R. part 1750).) 3 The final rule contained\n\nsignificant revisions from OFHEO\u2019s previously proposed rule, including, among other things,\n\ncutting in half the capital impact of risk-sharing with DUS lenders. (See id.; Risk-Based Capital,\n\n64 Fed. Reg. 18084 (April 13, 1999); Fannie Mae\u2019s Interrog. Resp. No. 7.) Thus, the final rule\n\nobviated the need for Fannie Mae to obtain insurance for capital purposes and Fannie Mae did\n\nnot pursue DUS insurance coverage at the time because it was inconsistent with the risk-sharing\n\nnature of Fannie Mae\u2019s business model. (See March 26, 2003 Huebscher Dep. at 449:12-25; see,\n\ne.g., Fannie Mae\u2019s Interrog. Resp. No. 7.) Under these circumstances, Fannie Mae decided that\n\nit would not pursue the DUS proposal with either RMS or Craig Ott. (See id.)\n\n        Plaintiff testified that she recognized in mid-2001 that Fannie Mae was not going to\n\nconsummate the proposed DUS transaction with her. (See, e.g., March 17, 2003 Williams Dep.\n\n\n\n2\n         If the new regulation had required Fannie Mae to hold substantially more capital based on the risk that a\nDUS lender would be unable to fulfill its risk-sharing obligations, the possibility of insuring the risk could have\nbecome more attractive. (See March 26, 2003 Huebscher Dep. at 464-465, attached hereto at Exhibit A1.)\n3\n         OFHEO\u2019s risk-based capital rule, while not published in the Federal Register until September 2001, was\navailable from OFHEO as of July 19, 2001. See http://www.ofheo.gov/media/archive/docs/regs/RBCFinal.pdf (last\naccessed June 21, 2007.)\n\n\n                                                         9\n\f   Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 33-2        Filed 06/21/2007      Page 10 of 36\n\n\n\nat 88, 91, 102, 104, 121, attached hereto at Exhibit L.) CAM also stopped working on the\n\nproposal in August 2001 because it heard from plaintiff that Fannie Mae was not pursuing the\n\nproposal. (See Jones Dep at 54.)\n\nIII.   PLAINTIFF\u2019S CO-BROKERAGE AGREEMENT WITH CAM.\n\n       As noted above, when plaintiff left Fannie Mae in 1998, she hoped to go to work with\n\nCAM. After plaintiff was unable to reach an agreement with CAM, she formed a company,\n\nRMS, that tried to purchase CAM, \u201cbut this offer, too, was rebuffed.\u201d (Jones Dep. Exh. 4, at\n\nFNMA.MBW.007369, attached hereto at Exhibit H2.) Thus, although CAM and plaintiff had\n\ntalked about a joint venture, they never actually entered into an agreement. (See Jones Dep. at\n\n31:2-25.)\n\n       In May 2001, plaintiff wrote to Fannie Mae to \u201cclearly define\u201d the scope of her\n\ncompany\u2019s relationship with CAM. (Jones Dep. Exh. 2.) According to the letter, RMS and\n\nCAM did not have \u201cany connection with respect to ownership and no one from CAM or RMS\n\nhas an interest in the other\u2019s business ventures.\u201d (Id. at FNMA.MBW.008003.) Instead, she\n\nstated that they merely had a \u201cco-brokerage agreement.\u201d (Id.)\n\n       Although neither CAM nor plaintiff has produced a signed co-brokerage agreement, they\n\nboth contend that an agreement did exist. In her May 2001 letter to Fannie Mae, plaintiff\n\ndescribed the agreement as follows: \u201cThe agreement indicates that when CAM locates an\n\ninsurance company for a project that RMS is working on, RMS agrees to compensate CAM\n\nthrough some form of split commission.\u201d (Jones Dep. Exh. 2.) Her interrogatory responses\n\nsimilarly described the agreement as \u201ca simple, common co-brokerage agreement with CAM\n\nFinancial that entailed paying them a commission in the event that they secured the insurance\n\nthat I needed on any of the proposals that I was working on.\u201d (Williams Interrog. Resp. No. 7.)\n\n\n\n\n                                               10\n\f    Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB               Document 33-2            Filed 06/21/2007          Page 11 of 36\n\n\n\n        Bob Jones, CAM\u2019s president until 2005 and plaintiff\u2019s principal contact at the firm,\n\nrecalled only two Fannie Mae related projects or presentations that plaintiff or RMS worked on\n\nwith CAM: The May 2001 DUS proposal and her presentation on captive insurance in August\n\n2001. (See Jones Dep. at 58-59.) Mr. Jones also indicated that CAM worked on several non-\n\nFannie Mae product development projects with plaintiff, but that none of them resulted in an\n\nactual transaction with the exception of a $10,000 application fee paid by First Atlantic. (See id.\n\nat 32-37.) Mr. Jones indicated that he did not believe that the co-brokerage agreement formally\n\nterminated prior to his departure from the company in 2005, testifying that: \u201cI know no reason\n\nwhy it was ever terminated.\u201d (Jones Dep. at 35:18-19.) Plaintiff herself testified: \u201cI don\u2019t recall\n\nwhen it expired. I\u2019m not sure if it had a term in here. Let\u2019s see. Does this say? This doesn\u2019t say\n\nso I don\u2019t know. Well, it certainly had to expire when I was no longer a broker. I haven\u2019t been a\n\nbroker for two years.\u201d (May 7, 2007 Williams Dep. at 224:8-10). Plaintiff\u2019 brokerage license\n\nexpired in April 2003. (See District of Columbia Dept. of Insurance, Securities & Banking\n\nLicensee Look-up, attached hereto at Exhibit M.)\n\n        In her discovery responses, plaintiff asserts that she had conversations with CAM\n\npresident Jones in which he informed her that (1) Fannie Mae was actively discouraging CAM\n\nfrom doing business with her and (2) Fannie Mae had made \u201cfalse and defamatory\u201d statements\n\nabout her. (Williams Interrog. Resp. Nos. 9 & 10.) She could not say, however, when these\n\nconversations occurred, what was said by Fannie Mae, or even who made the alleged remarks.\n\n(Id.; May 7, 2007 Williams Dep. at 221:223:22.) Moreover, plaintiff\u2019s allegations were directly\n\ncontradicted by Mr. Jones himself, who could not recall a single conversation regarding RMS or\n\nthe plaintiff with defendants Huebscher or Lawch. 4 More specifically, Mr. Jones could not recall\n\n\n4\n         When asked, \u201cDid you ever have any conversations with Ms. Huebscher about Marialice Williams or Risk\nMitigation Strategists, LLC, for which Ms. Williams was not present,\u201d Mr. Jones responded, \u201cI just don\u2019t recall.\u201d\n\n\n                                                       11\n\f      Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB             Document 33-2            Filed 06/21/2007          Page 12 of 36\n\n\n\nany instance where defendants discouraged CAM from business relationships with the plaintiff, 5\n\nor made disparaging remarks about the plaintiff. 6 Mr. Jones\u2019 recollection is consistent with\n\ndeclarations submitted by defendants Huebscher and Lawch, indicating that no such\n\nconversations occurred. (See Huebscher Decl. \u00b6\u00b6 6, 7; Lawch Decl. \u00b6\u00b6 5, 6.)\n\nIV.      PLAINTIFF\u2019S KNOWLEDGE OF FANNIE MAE\u2019S DECISIONS.\n\n         On August 29, 2004, plaintiff sent Fannie Mae\u2019s CEO a draft complaint alleging that the\n\ncompany had refused to do business with her and had \u201cblackballed\u201d her on account of her race.\n\nAs evidence of this purported conduct, plaintiff attached a copy of a May 2001 e-mail between\n\ndefendants Lawch and Huebscher, and stated that the e-mail \u201cmade the blackball clear.\u201d (Draft\n\nCompl. \u00b6 19, attached hereto at Exhibit N.) The complaint also asserted (erroneously) that\n\nplaintiff did not discover this e-mail until May 2002. (Id.) This complaint was never filed.\n\n         Nearly a year later, on July 28, 2005, plaintiff filed suit against Fannie Mae, Lawch and\n\nHuebscher. The new complaint reiterated that the e-mail constituted \u201cevidence of the ongoing\n\nand inexplicable blackballing of Plaintiff Williams from all Fannie Mae business.\u201d (Compl. \u00b6\n\n45.) The complaint, however, removed the previous reference to \u201cMay 2002\u201d and instead\n\n\n\n\n(Jones Dep. at 43.) When asked, \u201cWhether you had any discussions with Mr. Lawch about Marialice Williams or\nRisk Mitigation Strategies, LLC after Ms. Williams [Plaintiff] left Fannie Mae,\u201d Mr. Jones responded, \u201cI don\u2019t\nrecall.\u201d When asked further, \u201cYou don\u2019t recall any?\u201d Mr. Jones responded, \u201cNo.\u201d (Id. at 46.)\n5\n         When asked, \u201cDid Ms. Huebscher ever tell CAM Services not to do business with Ms. Williams or Risk\nMitigation Strategies,\u201d Mr. Jones responded, \u201cNot that I recall.\u201d (Jones Dep. at 43.) When asked, \u201cAnd after Ms.\nWilliams left Fannie Mae, I take it then that you don\u2019t recall any conversation in which Mr. Lawch told CAM not to\ndo business with Ms. Williams,\u201d Mr. Jones responded, \u201cI don\u2019t recall of any conversations.\u201d (Id. at 62.)\n6\n         When asked, \u201cDid Ms. Huebscher make any disparaging remarks about Ms. Williams or Risk Mitigation\nStrategists, LLC to you,\u201d Mr. Jones responded, \u201cI don\u2019t recall.\u201d When asked, \u201cDid Ms. Huebscher ever discuss Ms.\nWilliams\u2019 business acumen with CAM or with you,\u201d Mr. Jones responded, \u201cI don\u2019t have any knowledge or recall.\u201d\nWhen asked, \u201cDo you recall whether Ms. Huebscher ever made any false statements to you about Ms. Williams or\nRisk Mitigation Strategists, LLC,\u201d Mr. Jones responded, \u201cI have no recall [sic]. I don\u2019t think so.\u201d (Jones Dep. at\n44.) When asked, \u201cAnd you don\u2019t recall any conversations in which Mr. Lawch made any disparaging remarks\nabout Ms. Williams after she left Fannie Mae,\u201d Mr. Jones responded, \u201cI don\u2019t recall of any.\u201d When asked, \u201cAnd you\ndon\u2019t recall any false statements that Mr. Lawch made to you about Ms. Williams after she left Fannie Mae,\u201d Mr.\nJones responded, \u201cWell, same answer; same question.\u201d (Id. at 62:19-63:8.)\n\n\n                                                       12\n\f   Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB            Document 33-2          Filed 06/21/2007       Page 13 of 36\n\n\n\nasserted that the plaintiff did not \u201cdiscover\u201d the significance of this evidence until much later.\n\n(Compl. \u00b6 46.)\n\n        Fannie Mae moved to dismiss the complaint, noting that \u201cmuch later\u201d turned out to be a\n\nmatter of days. Documents provided by plaintiff herself indicated that she received the e-mail on\n\nJune 4, 2001 \u2014 less than a week after it had originally been sent. Instead of responding to\n\nFannie Mae\u2019s motion to dismiss, plaintiff changed her story and amended her complaint. This\n\ntime she alleged, for the first time, that it was not the e-mail that put her on notice of her claims.\n\nInstead it was an \u201cOctober 8, 2003\u201d meeting on \u201ccaptive insurance\u201d that provided the triggering\n\nevent for limitations purposes. (Am. Comp. \u00b6\u00b6 51-52.) According to her new complaint, it was\n\nnot until after this meeting that she actually realized that Fannie Mae did not intend to do\n\nbusiness with her. Plaintiff alleged that, following the meeting, \u201cdefendant Huebscher and other\n\nofficials at Fannie Mae stopped responding to Plaintiff Williams\u2019 correspondence and telephone\n\ncalls . . . and it became clear for the first time\u201d to plaintiff that defendants were not willing to do\n\nany business with her. (Am. Compl. \u00b6 53.) As plaintiff recently testified, \u201cI really didn\u2019t get\n\nany further com -- communication or correspondence from them after attempting to contact\n\nthem.\u201d (May 7, 2007 Williams Dep. at 196:19-21.) This testimony confirmed testimony she\n\ngave three years earlier in the CAM case. (See May 5, 2003 Williams Dep. at 32-33, attached\n\nhereto at Exhibit O.)\n\n        Discovery has demonstrated that plaintiff\u2019s amended complaint is premised on an\n\nadmittedly inaccurate date. First, consistent with her original complaint, plaintiff admitted that\n\nafter reading the May e-mail between Huebscher and Lawch, \u201cIt was clear that [Fannie Mae] was\n\n\n\n\n                                                  13\n\f    Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB                Document 33-2             Filed 06/21/2007           Page 14 of 36\n\n\n\nnot going to do business with [her].\u201d (March 17, 2003 Williams Dep. at 91). 7 More importantly,\n\nthe captive insurance meeting she now contends starts the clock on her limitations period did not\n\noccur on October 8, 2003. Plaintiff herself testified that the meeting occurred on August 21,\n\n2001. (See May 6, 2003 Williams Dep. at 128:25-129:13, attached hereto at Exhibit P (\u201cQ: Did\n\nyou in fact have that meeting on the 21st of August? A. Yes, we did. Q. And who was there?\n\nA. Kate Westover. Q. And what was her position? A. Kate Westover is an international\n\nauthority on captive insurance.\u201d).) This testimony is supported by a wealth of documentary\n\nevidence, including the testimony of CAM\u2019s president, and a declaration from the internationally\n\nrenowned captive insurance expert (Kathryn \u201cKate\u201d Westover), who made the actual\n\npresentation to Fannie Mae. (May 6, 2003 Williams Dep. at 128:25-129:13; Jones Dep. at 54-55\n\n(\u201cI was copied on some e-mails that Ms. Williams was making a captive presentation in about\n\nAugust of 2001. It\u2019s somewhere in that time frame, August, September\u201d); Declaration of\n\nKathryn Westover, attached hereto at Exhibit Q; FNMA.MBW.008057, attached hereto at\n\nExhibit R.)\n\n         A few months after the meeting \u2014 and Fannie Mae\u2019s purported refusal to contact her \u2014\n\nplaintiff\u2019s \u201cco-broker,\u201d CAM, filed suit against Fannie Mae. (See CAM Amended Complaint.)\n\nIn early 2002, shortly after CAM filed its lawsuit, Fannie Mae\u2019s counsel asked to meet with\n\n\n\n7\n         Indeed, on March 17, 2003, seven months before she now contends she discovered Fannie Mae\u2019s alleged\ndiscrimination, plaintiff testified extensively about this e-mail exchange and what she understood it meant. Among\nother things:\n     \u2022 When asked how she knew that it was decided that Fannie Mae rejected plaintiff\u2019s proposal, plaintiff stated\n         that it was \u201c[i]n the context of this e-mail.\u201d (March 17, 2003 Williams Dep. at 102.)\n     \u2022 Plaintiff acknowledged that she had discussions with others \u201cas soon as probably I got this e-mail. It\u2019s\n         pretty shocking when you spent almost two hundred and some thousand dollars building a business to\n         suddenly one day walk in the door and no [sic] you don\u2019t have ding, after lies and lies and lies and\n         confidentiality and being asked if you wanted to do it, and then being crapped on in the midst of all of it.\u201d\n         (March 17, 2003 Williams Dep. at 94, attached hereto at Exhibit L.)\n     \u2022 Additionally, in this same deposition, plaintiff stated that the e-mail was sent to her \u201cbecause it\u2019s pretty\n         clear from this e-mail that I was not going to be given the same opportunity as everyone else was being\n         given to do this\u201d and it was \u201cbecause I was being screwed.\u201d (March 17, 2003 Williams Dep. at 94, 121.)\n\n\n                                                         14\n\f   Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 33-2         Filed 06/21/2007       Page 15 of 36\n\n\n\nplaintiff in order to obtain information for the lawsuit. Plaintiff refused the meeting. (See May\n\n7, 2007 Williams Dep. at 166:7-11.) Defendants did not have any business interaction with\n\nplaintiff or CAM after the filing of the lawsuit. (See Huebscher Decl. \u00b6\u00b6 4, 5; Lawch Decl. \u00b6\u00b6 3,\n\n4.) Defendants did not promise plaintiff any business or even meet with her after this date. (See\n\nHuebscher Decl. \u00b6\u00b6 3, 4; Lawch Decl. \u00b6\u00b6 2, 3.)\n\n       Plaintiff\u2019s recent testimony is entirely consistent with the documentary record and her\n\nprevious testimony. Plaintiff testified in March of 2003 and again in 2007 that she provided all\n\nof the information in her possession related to Fannie Mae in response to a subpoena issued in\n\nthe CAM litigation in early 2002. (See March 17, 2003 Williams Dep. at 37:8-18, attached\n\nhereto at Exhibit L; May 7, 2007 Williams Dep. at 145-147.) Plaintiff, however, did not produce\n\na single e-mail or electronic document concerning Fannie Mae. Plaintiff explained the absence\n\nof any such documents by claiming to have had a computer crash in the fall of 2001. (See May\n\n7, 2007 Williams Dep. Exh. 10; March 17, 2003 Williams Dep. at 37:8-18.)\n\n       Plaintiff\u2019s testimony also reveals that as early as June 2001 she believed that defendant\n\nLawch was discriminating against her. In her interrogatory responses, she indicated that her\n\nevidence of discrimination was a statement by defendant Lawch that \u201che was working with an\n\n\u2018international broker\u2019 for doing some insurance business for the MBS pools.\u201d (Williams\n\nInterrog. Resp. No. 1.) Plaintiff testified that: \u201cI knew that that was a discriminatory remark.\n\nThat he was selecting a white man with no experience or knowledge over me, a black person, to\n\ndo the aggregation business.\u201d (May 7, 2007 Williams Dep. at 200.) Plaintiff also testified \u2014 at\n\nan earlier deposition \u2014 that she heard defendant Lawch\u2019s statement in early 2001. (See March\n\n17, 2003 Williams Dep. at 107-108, attached hereto at Exhibit L.)\n\n                                            ARGUMENT\n\n\n\n\n                                                 15\n\f     Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB         Document 33-2          Filed 06/21/2007       Page 16 of 36\n\n\n\nI.      DEFENDANTS ARE ENTITLED TO SUMMARY JUDGMENT ON BOTH\n        CLAIMS BECAUSE THEY ARE BARRED BY THE APPLICABLE\n        THREE-YEAR STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS.\n\n        As this Court previously recognized, \u201cthe statute of limitation is three years for both the\n\nSection 1981 claim and the tortious interference claim.\u201d (Mem. Op. at 19-20 (citing Carney v.\n\nAm. Univ., 151 F.3d 1090, 1095 (D.C. Cir. 1998) (Section 1981) and (Beard v. Edmondson &\n\nGallagher, 790 A.2d 541, 546 (D.C. 2002) (tortious interference).) Defendants previously\n\nmoved for summary judgment on the ground that plaintiff\u2019s claims are time barred because\n\nplaintiff\u2019s undisputed testimonial admissions established that she knew, or at the very least\n\nshould have known, that she had a cause of action against defendants on or about June 4, 2001.\n\n(See id. at 20 (quoting plaintiff\u2019s deposition testimony).)\n\n        In response to defendants\u2019 motion for summary judgment, plaintiff moved for a\n\ncontinuance pursuant to FED. R. CIV. P. 56(f). In that motion, plaintiff argued that \u201cit was not\n\nuntil the time following a business development meeting with Defendants which was conducted\n\non October 8, 2003, that plaintiff became fully aware of [defendants\u2019 alleged] plot.\u201d (Plaintiff\u2019s\n\nMot. for Continuance Under Rule 56(f) at 4 (Docket No. 13).) In her amended complaint,\n\nplaintiff alleged that this business development meeting concerned captive insurance and\n\ninvolved a presentation by Kate Westover, an expert on captive insurance. (Am. Compl. \u00b6 51.)\n\nIn the amended complaint, plaintiff also alleged that after the meeting \u201cofficials of Fannie Mae\n\nstopped responding to Plaintiff Williams correspondence and telephone calls\u201d and it \u201cbecame\n\nclear\u201d that defendants had been \u201cblackballing\u201d plaintiff and \u201cher business entities.\u201d (Id. \u00b6 53.)\n\n        The Court granted plaintiff\u2019s FED. R. CIV. P. 56(f) motion, stating that \u201c[t]o create a\n\ntriable issue of fact over a statute of limitations issue, a plaintiff may show that the defendant\n\nengaged in subsequent misrepresentation, tolling the statue of limitations.\u201d (Mem. Op. at 21.)\n\nThe Court held that \u201c[i]f plaintiff can demonstrate that defendants continued to promise other\n\n\n                                                 16\n\f    Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB               Document 33-2            Filed 06/21/2007           Page 17 of 36\n\n\n\nbusiness opportunities to her, then a trier of fact could reasonably conclude that she could not\n\nhave been aware of any racially discriminatory intent on the part of defendants in rejecting her\n\nMay 2001 proposal.\u201d (Id. at 22.) The Court also denied defendants\u2019 Motion for Summary\n\nJudgment on the basis that the tortious interference claim was time-barred because it concluded\n\nthere was no information in the record concerning the date of plaintiff\u2019s \u201canticipated co-\n\nbrokerage agreement with CAM.\u201d (Mem. Op. at 24 n.12.)\n\n        Discovery has revealed that plaintiff\u2019s tortious interference and Section 1981 claims are,\n\nin fact, one and the same. Plaintiff hoped to use CAM to procure insurance for transactions she\n\npitched to Fannie Mae, and contends that Fannie Mae interfered with her relationship with CAM\n\nby refusing to enter into those transactions. Indeed, plaintiff admitted in her sworn deposition\n\ntestimony that her tortious interference claim is based on defendants\u2019 purported refusal to do\n\nbusiness with her: when asked, \u201cSo fundamentally your claim related to the co-brokerage\n\nagreement is that Fannie Mae didn\u2019t do any business with you; is that fair to say,\u201d plaintiff\n\nresponded, \u201cThat\u2019s right.\u201d (May 7, 2007 Williams Dep. at 215; see also id. at 202-03; Section\n\nII.B infra.) Because plaintiff\u2019s tortious interference claim is based on the same underlying\n\nfactual allegations as her Section 1981 claim, any claim for tortious interference would have\n\naccrued at the same time, and is time-barred for the same reasons, as that claim.\n\n        The evidence developed in discovery since the Court\u2019s ruling demonstrates without\n\ndispute that: (1) the business development meeting that plaintiff identified as key to her\n\ndiscovery of Fannie Mae\u2019s (or defendants\u2019) alleged \u201cplot\u201d to deny her business occurred in\n\nAugust 2001, not October 2003 as alleged in the amended complaint; and (2) there is no\n\nevidence of any fraudulent concealment 8 by defendants, nor any evidence that defendants\n\n\n8\n        As explained supra, plaintiff has not produced evidence that supports even a colorable theory of fraudulent\nconcealment. Nevertheless, defendants note that \u201c[f]or the court to toll the statute of limitations on the basis of\n\n\n                                                        17\n\f    Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB                Document 33-2             Filed 06/21/2007          Page 18 of 36\n\n\n\ncontinued to offer her future business.\n\n         First, the allegation in plaintiff\u2019s amended complaint that the date of the so-called captive\n\ninsurance meeting that plaintiff contends triggered her discovery of defendants\u2019 wrongdoing is\n\nOctober 2003 is simply inaccurate. According to the plaintiff\u2019s own deposition testimony, this\n\nmeeting occurred in August 2001, not October 2003. (See May 6, 2003 Williams Dep. at 128:25-\n\n129:13.) That admission is supported by a wealth of additional evidence that the meeting\n\noccurred in August 2001. (See May 6, 2003 Williams Dep. at 128:25-129:13; Jones Dep. at 54-\n\n55; Declaration of Kathryn Westover; FNMA.MBW.008057.) Plaintiff contends that it was after\n\nsuch meeting that \u201cofficials of Fannie Mae stopped responding to [her] correspondence and\n\ntelephone calls\u201d and it \u201cbecame clear\u201d that defendants had been \u201cblackballing\u201d her and \u201cher\n\nbusiness entities\u201d (Am. Compl. \u00b653). As such, plaintiff has in fact admitted that she had no\n\nfurther contact with defendants concerning the May 2001 \u2014 or any other \u2014 business proposal\n\nafter August 2001.\n\n         Second, plaintiff admitted in her deposition that she had notice of defendant\u2019s purported\n\nracially discriminatory intent in 2001. Specifically, she alleged that a statement by defendant\n\nLawch indicating he would be working with an \u201cinternational broker\u201d evidences her allegation\n\nthat Fannie Mae denied her the opportunity \u2014 on the basis of race \u2014 to make and enforce a\n\ncontract with respect to the May 2001 proposal. (Williams Interrog. Resp. No. 1.) 9 And, in her\n\ndeposition, she testified that she knew at the time she heard the remark before June 2001 \u201c[t]hat\n\nhe was selecting a white man with no experience or knowledge over me, a black person, to do\n\n\n\n\u2018fraud or concealment,\u2019 the plaintiff must show that a defendant engaged in a course of conduct designed to conceal\nevidence of the alleged wrongdoing, and that the plaintiff was not on actual or constructive notice of that evidence,\ndespite the exercise of due diligence.\u201d Walker v. Pharm. Research & Mfrs. of Am., 461 F. Supp. 2d 52, 60 (D.D.C.\n2006) (citing Larson v. Northrop Corp., 21 F.3d 1164, 1172 (D.C. Cir. 1994)).\n9\n         Moreover, that remark is the only \u201cevidence\u201d of discrimination plaintiff has advanced in support of her\ndiscrimination claim. (See id.)\n\n\n                                                         18\n\f      Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 33-2         Filed 06/21/2007      Page 19 of 36\n\n\n\nthe aggregation business.\u201d (May 7, 2007 Williams Dep. at 200.) Thus, it is beyond dispute that\n\nplaintiff was aware of any alleged discriminatory intent on the part of the defendants outside the\n\nstatute of limitations period and cannot assert that she was not on notice of her discrimination\n\nclaim.\n\n         In short, plaintiff\u2019s recent averments, designed as they were to overcome glaring\n\nlimitations problems, stand in contravention to the sworn testimony and documentary evidence\n\nproduced in this case. Not only do the undisputed facts prove that plaintiff knew about the\n\nalleged discriminatory intent in 2001, but they also show that plaintiff could not possibly have\n\nbeen \u201cpromise[d] other business opportunities\u201d except outside the statute of limitations period.\n\nAs such, plaintiff\u2019s claims must be dismissed.\n\nII.      DEFENDANTS ARE ENTITLED TO SUMMARY JUDGMENT ON BOTH\n         CLAIMS BECAUSE IT WAS RMS, NOT PLAINTIFF, THAT SOUGHT\n         TO CONTRACT WITH FANNIE MAE.\n\n         A.     PLAINTIFF DOES NOT HAVE STANDING TO ASSERT A SECTION 1981\n                CLAIM BECAUSE THE MAY 2001 PROPOSAL CAME FROM HER\n                COMPANY, RMS.\n\n         In Domino\u2019s Pizza v. McDonald, 126 S. Ct. 1246, (2006), the Supreme Court recently\n\nheld that the president and sole shareholder of a company \u2014 like the plaintiff here \u2014 does not\n\nhave standing to pursue a Section 1981 claim based on an actual or proposed contractual\n\nrelationship between the company and the defendant. Id. at 1252. Plaintiff\u2019s admission that the\n\nMay 2001 Proposal came from her company, RMS, thus bars her individual discrimination\n\nclaim.\n\n         Domino\u2019s Pizza involved a Section 1981 claim brought by the president and sole\n\nshareholder of a small corporation, which had previously contracted with the defendant. The\n\nplaintiff alleged \u201cthat [defendant] had broken its contracts with [plaintiff\u2019s company] because of\n\nracial animus toward [him], and that the breach had harmed [him] personally by causing him \u2018to\n\n\n                                                 19\n\f   Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 33-2         Filed 06/21/2007      Page 20 of 36\n\n\n\nsuffer monetary damages and damages for pain and suffering, emotional distress, and\n\nhumiliation.\u2019\u201d Id. at 1248. The Supreme Court rejected plaintiff\u2019s lawsuit, concluding that\n\nbecause his claim derived from a contractual relationship between the defendant and his\n\ncompany, only the company could bring the claim. Id. at 1250-51. The Court specifically\n\nrejected plaintiff\u2019s argument that because he was the \u201cactual target\u201d of the discrimination and\n\npersonally lost benefits that would have accrued to him but for the alleged discriminatory\n\nconduct. Id. at 1250.\n\n       The Supreme Court\u2019s decision in Domino\u2019s Pizza applies with full force to the\n\nundisputed facts of this case. Plaintiff concedes that the May 2001 Proposal \u201cwas made by Risk\n\nMitigation Strategists, LLC . . .\u201d (March 28, 2007 Williams Dep. at 36.) Her written proposals to\n\nboth Fannie Mae and a potential insurance company confirm this testimony. In early May,\n\nplaintiff sent Fannie Mae a letter indicating that \u201cRMS w[ould] continue to work\u201d on the\n\nproposed business and followed up with an e-mail providing an \u201cupdate[s] from RMS.\u201d (Jones\n\nDep. Exh. 2; Jones Dep. Exh. 7, at FNMA.MBW.008031.) Similarly, the proposal that Bob\n\nJones and plaintiff forwarded to Zurich Insurance indicated that RMS represented three DUS\n\nlenders and that \u201cRMS is seeking insurance coverage for [these] lenders.\u201d (March 28, 2007\n\nWilliams Dep. Exh. 1, at FNMA.MBW.008015, 008017.) Thus, the undisputed facts\n\ndemonstrate that plaintiff does not have standing to pursue her discrimination claim because the\n\nMay 2001 Proposal was made by RMS rather than plaintiff.\n\n       B.      PLAINTIFF SIMILARLY DOES NOT HAVE STANDING TO ASSERT A\n               TORTIOUS INTERFERENCE CLAIM BECAUSE THE MAY 2001 PROPOSAL\n               WAS MADE BY HER COMPANY, RMS.\n\n       As described above, plaintiff\u2019s own testimony bears out the fact that her tortious\n\ninterference claim is, at bottom, based on defendants\u2019 purported refusal to pursue business with\n\nher (see p. 17, supra). (See, e.g. May 7, 2007 Williams Dep. at 202-03, 215.) This Court\n\n\n                                                20\n\f   Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 33-2          Filed 06/21/2007       Page 21 of 36\n\n\n\npreviously concluded that the only specific Fannie Mae proposal plaintiff identified is the May\n\n2001 Proposal. (See Mem. Op. at 9.) Because that proposal was made by RMS rather than\n\nplaintiff herself, she lacks standing to pursue this claim. See, e.g., Vann v. Spak, Case No. 01-\n\n55555, 2001 U.S. App. LEXIS 21428, at *2 (9th Cir. Sep. 10, 2001) (holding that dismissal was\n\nproper where plaintiff lacked standing to bring a tortious interference claim because he was not\n\na party to the underlying contract); Osborn v. Bell Helicopter Textron, 828 F. Supp. 446, 450-51\n\n(N.D. Tex. 1993) (granting summary judgment where plaintiff lacked standing because the\n\ntortious interference claim he made belonged to his business, rather than to himself).\n\nIII.   DEFENDANTS ARE ENTITLED TO SUMMARY JUDGMENT ON BOTH\n       CLAIMS BECAUSE PLAINTIFF CANNOT IDENTIFY ANY DAMAGES\n       ARISING FROM FANNIE MAE\u2019S REFUSAL TO CONTRACT.\n\n       A.      THE COURT SHOULD DISMISS PLAINTIFF\u2019S CLAIM BECAUSE SHE HAS\n               ADDUCED NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT HER AVERRED DAMAGES WHICH,\n               EVEN AS ALLEGED, CANNOT SUPPORT A CLAIM UNDER SECTION 1981.\n\n       Plaintiff must, of course, prove her damages. See Carey v. Piphus, 435 U.S. 247 (1978).\n\nAs discovery has revealed, however, plaintiff\u2019s claimed damages are nothing more than \u201cmere\n\nunsupported allegations.\u201d See Devera v. Adams, 874 F. Supp. 17, 20 (D.D.C. 1995) (\u201c[T]he non-\n\nmoving party\u2019s opposition must consist of more than mere unsupported allegations or denials\n\nand must be supported by affidavits or other competent evidence setting forth specific facts\n\nshowing that there is a genuine issue for trial.\u201d). Plaintiff\u2019s efforts at proof evince a wholesale\n\nfailure to \u201c\u2018provide evidence that would permit a reasonable jury to find\u2019 in [her] favor.\u201d See id.\n\n(quoting Laningham v. United States Navy, 813 F.2d 1236, 1242 (D.C. Cir. 1987)). While the\n\ncourt \u201cmay consider any evidence that would be admissible at trial,\u201d in this case, all plaintiff has\n\noffered is her own averments, which, standing alone, cannot rebuff this motion for summary\n\njudgment. See Moore v. Ashcroft, 401 F. Supp. 2d 1, 20-21 (D.D.C. 2005).\n\n\n\n\n                                                 21\n\f     Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB              Document 33-2            Filed 06/21/2007          Page 22 of 36\n\n\n\n        In particular, Fannie Mae asked plaintiff to describe in detail each of her damages and to\n\nspecify which damages relate to the May 2001 Proposal. Plaintiff merely responded that\n\n\u201c[l]osses were calculated based upon the amount of potential business that Fannie Mae did using\n\nstructures developed by [her].\u201d (Williams Interrog. Resp. No. 13.) This measure of damages is,\n\nof course, wholly divorced from the business outlined in the May 2001 Proposal. But, more\n\nimportantly, the record demonstrates that Fannie Mae did not pursue the May 2001 Proposal\n\nwith anybody else. (See March 26, 2003 Huebscher Dep. at 465.; Fannie Mae Interrog. Resp.\n\nNos. 2 & 4.) Thus, plaintiff\u2019s claim fails under her own theory of damages because Fannie Mae\n\ndid not enter into the May 2001 Proposal with any individual or entity and thus plaintiff did not\n\nsuffer any losses in that respect.\n\n        Moreover, even if plaintiff could recover for transactions that never occurred (with Mr.\n\nOtt or anybody else), plaintiff\u2019s speculative, back-of\u2013the-envelope calculations about what\n\n\u201cmight have been\u201d had Fannie Mae chosen to insure some or all of its DUS portfolio are\n\ninsufficient to support her claims. See e.g., Whetstone Candy Co. v. Nat\u2019l Consumers League,\n\n360 F. Supp. 2d 77, 82-83 (D.D.C. 2004) (granting summary judgment because plaintiff\u2019s claims\n\nof lost sales are but conclusory assertions since \u201csales forecasts were not in the record, nor were\n\ndeclarations by the employees who prepared them, or relevant expert reports\u201d); Miller Billboard\n\nAdver., Inc. v. Outdoor Sys., Case No. 99-1405, 2000 U.S. App. LEXIS 2800, at *7-9 (7th Cir.\n\nFeb. 22, 2000). Plaintiff\u2019s gambit of multiplying Fannie Mae\u2019s total business activity in a given\n\nsector by the fees that plaintiff claims she would have charged had she brokered insurance for\n\nthis activity from the time she left Fannie Mae going forward 10 is simply divorced from reality.\n\n\n10\n          Plaintiff\u2019s rambling testimony on her damages theory includes: (1) \u201cAnnual reports from Fannie Mae\nreflect about $2 billion of MBS, one-off transactions which were closed . . . annually, substantially more MBS were\nissued with the DUS portfolio,\u201d (May 7, 2007 Williams Dep. at 225 (emphasis added)); (2) \u201cGenerally speaking, the\nfees range from about 25 basis points annually for the insurance. In some instances, fees were as high as 56 basis\n\n\n                                                        22\n\f    Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB                 Document 33-2             Filed 06/21/2007           Page 23 of 36\n\n\n\n         Finally, plaintiff\u2019s purported reliance damages are similarly deficient. Plaintiff\u2019s\n\ninterrogatory responses list a number of recurrent business expenses (e.g., rent, travel, phone and\n\noffice equipment, office assistant.) (See Williams Interrog. Resp. No. 14.) But plaintiff cannot\n\nattribute any specific amount to the May 2001 proposal. (Id.) This is not surprising given that\n\nshe first raised the proposal with Defendant Lawch in early 2001 and conceded that \u2014 a few\n\nmonths later \u2014 she knew it would not go forward. This suggests that even if plaintiff could\n\npresent specific evidence of reliance damages, they would be de minimus at best. Moreover,\n\nwhen Fannie Mae requested that plaintiff produce more specific information on these damages to\n\nhelp determine whether any could be fairly attributable to her May proposal, she simply refused.\n\n(See, e.g., May 7, 2007 Williams Dep. at 268, 295-296.) For example, plaintiff admitted that her\n\ncredit card statements contained charges related to both personal and business expenses, and\n\nwould not \u2014 and could not \u2014 decipher between the two. (See May 7, 2007 Williams Dep. at\n\n260:1-11.)\n\n         B.       PLAINTIFF OFFERS NO EVIDENCE OF ANY SPECIFIC DAMAGES\n                  RESULTING FROM THE TERMINATION OF HER CO-BROKERAGE\n                  AGREEMENT.\n\n         Finally, plaintiff\u2019s thoroughly unsubstantiated and illogical estimation of damages also\n\nentitles defendants to summary judgment on plaintiff\u2019s tortious interference claim. As noted\n\nwith respect to plaintiff\u2019s Section 1981 claim (see Section III.A, supra), plaintiff cannot\n\ndocument any damages related to her proposal to do business with Fannie Mae. Moreover, as\n\ndescribed below, it is well-established that a defendant cannot tortiously interfere with its own\n\ncontracts and business relationships. (See Section V.A, infra.) Therefore, plaintiff\u2019s damages\n\n\n\npoints. And the broker\u2019s fee is approximately 10 percent of the premium fee,\u201d (Id. at 224 (emphasis added)); and (3)\n\u201c[T]hat\u2019s just for one year. So, let\u2019s see, \u201898, \u201899, \u20182000, \u20181, \u20182, \u20183, \u20184, \u20185. When did I file in \u20185? So that\u2019s seven\ntimes five, that\u2019s 35 million right there without me knowing the balance of what else would\u2019ve been there.\u201d (Id. at\n227.)\n\n\n                                                          23\n\f      Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB              Document 33-2             Filed 06/21/2007            Page 24 of 36\n\n\n\nallegations must flow from non-Fannie Mae business that CAM and plaintiff would have done if\n\nthe co-brokerage agreement had not been breached. Plaintiff, however, fails to allege \u2014 let\n\nalone document with evidence \u2014 any damages allegations that do not flow from lost business\n\nopportunities with Fannie Mae itself. 11 Indeed, it is difficult to see how plaintiff could have\n\nsuffered any damages given that her \u201cco-brokerage agreement\u201d consisted of her paying CAM for\n\ntransactions she put together. (See Jones Dep. Exh. 2, at FNMA.MBW.008003.) In short,\n\nplaintiff once again does not come close to producing the type of evidence necessary to survive\n\nsummary judgment on a key element of her tortious interference claim. Accordingly, this claim\n\nshould be dismissed as a matter of law.\n\nIV.      DEFENDANTS ARE ENTITLED TO SUMMARY JUDGMENT ON\n         PLAINTIFF\u2019S SECTION 1981 CLAIM BECAUSE THERE IS NO\n         EVIDENCE OF RACE DISCRIMINATION.\n\n         Plaintiff\u2019s claim under Section 1981 \u2014 which focuses solely on a May 2001 DUS\n\nproposal \u2014 fails as a matter of law because the undisputed facts reveal that Fannie Mae had a\n\nlegitimate nondiscriminatory reason for declining to pursue the May 2001 proposal with any\n\nindividual or entity, including RMS.\n\n         A.      PLAINTIFF CANNOT EVEN MAKE OUT A PRIMA FACIE SECTION 1981\n                 CLAIM.\n\n         Even assuming plaintiff had standing to pursue her Section 1981 claim, plaintiff\u2019s\n\ncomplaint cannot survive summary judgment because she cannot establish a prima facie case of\n\ndiscrimination. In order to establish a claim of racial discrimination under Section 1981, a\n\nplaintiff must demonstrate that: \u201c(1) [she] is a member of a protected class; (2) the defendant had\n\nan intent to discriminate on the basis of race; and (3) the discrimination concerned one or more\n\nof the activities enumerated in Section 1981 (which includes the right to make and enforce\n\n11\n         Indeed, plaintiff stated that her \u201c[l]osses are calculated based upon the amount of potential business that\n\n\n\n                                                         24\n\f    Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB               Document 33-2             Filed 06/21/2007          Page 25 of 36\n\n\n\ncontracts). Bennett v. United States Chess Fed\u2019n, 468 F. Supp. 2d 79, 86 (D.D.C. 2006); see also\n\nMem. Op at 8. In showing discriminatory intent, \u201cplaintiff must show that a defendant\n\nintentionally treated him or her differently because of his or her race.\u201d 12 Bennett, 468 F. Supp. at\n\n87. As this Court previously recognized:\n\n                 Under [controlling] case law, an inference of discrimination is\n                 created if the plaintiff is \u201csignificantly better qualified for the job\u201d\n                 \u2013 or here by analogy, the contract \u2013 than the less qualified\n                 candidate.\n\n(Mem. Op. at 8 (citing Aka v. Wash. Hosp. Ctr., 156 F.3d 1284, 1294 (D.C. Cir. 1998) (en banc);\n\nHolbrook v. Reno, 196 F.3d 255, 261 (D.C. Cir. 1999).) While plaintiff was able to survive\n\ndefendants\u2019 dismissal motion by alleging that Fannie Mae contracted with Craig Ott 13 with\n\nrespect to the May 2001 Proposal, the undisputed facts reveal that Fannie Mae did not give the\n\nMay 2001 Proposal to Craig Ott or anybody else.\n\n        The May 2001 Proposal was flawed for two reasons. First, because DUS lenders could\n\ncommit Fannie Mae to purchase multifamily loans without prior approval, Fannie Mae wanted to\n\nensure good loan underwriting by requiring its lenders to share in the default risk. (See March 26\n\n2003 Huebscher Dep. at 449.) As such, the insurance strategies detailed in the May 2001\n\nproposal were \u201cnot really consistent\u201d with Fannie Mae\u2019s business plan. (March 26, 2003\n\nHuebscher Dep. at 463.) Second, while the prospect of an unfavorable risk-based capital rule led\n\n\nFannie Mae did using structures developed by me.\u201d (Williams Interrog. Resp. No. 7.)\n12\n         In her responses to defendants\u2019 interrogatory requests, plaintiff suggested that defendant Lawch had made a\nremark that evidenced discrimination: \u201cMr. Lawch stated that he was working with an \u2018international broker\u2019 for\ndoing some insurance business for the MBS pools.\u201d (Williams Interrog. Resp. No. 1.) As an initial matter, it is\nunclear how such statement has any probative value. Moreover, the undisputed facts reveal that Fannie Mae never\npursued the May 2001 Proposal with anyone (see Fannie Mae Interrog. Resp. No. 7), and, in fact, that it never hired\nan \u201cinternational broker\u201d for the multifamily division\u2019s securitization and other loan programs (see id. at No. 9).\n13\n         While it is unnecessary for this Court to reach any conclusions about Mr. Ott\u2019s and plaintiff\u2019s relative\nqualifications, the undisputed facts show that Mr. Ott had extensive experience in the insurance business, including\nservice as a vice president of a major insurance company. (See, e.g., Jan. 19, 2004 Ott Dep. at 14-20, attached\nhereto at Exhibit S; March 26, 2003 Huebscher Dep. at 465.) Plaintiff, on the other hand, consummated a single\ninsurance transaction at Fannie Mae, and did not close a single transaction in her 5 years as an insurance broker.\n(See May 7, 2007 Williams Dep. at 201:1-10; 202:7-9.)\n\n\n                                                        25\n\f   Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 33-2         Filed 06/21/2007      Page 26 of 36\n\n\n\nFannie Mae to explore the possibility of using credit risk insurance for its DUS loans in mid-\n\n2001, the final OFHEO rule obviated the need to pursue such insurance. (See March 26, 2003\n\nHuebscher Dep. at 463; Jones Dep. Exh. 7, at FNMA.MBW.006230; Fannie Mae Interrog. Resp.\n\nNos. 2 & 4.) In short, Fannie Mae ultimately concluded that the May 2001 proposal was\n\ninconsistent with Fannie Mae\u2019s business model and that it should not pursue RMS\u2019s May 2001\n\nProposal with RMS, with Mr. Ott, or with anybody else. (See March 26, 2003 Huebscher Dep.\n\nat 465; Fannie Mae Interrog. Resp. Nos. 2 & 4.) These undisputed facts demonstrate that\n\nplaintiff cannot meet her prima facie burden with respect to her Section 1981 claim.\n\n       B.      FANNIE MAE HAS A LEGITIMATE NONDISCRIMINATORY REASON FOR\n               DECLINING TO PURSUE THE MAY 2001 PROPOSAL.\n\n       Assuming plaintiff could establish by a preponderance of the evidence a prima facie case\n\n(which she cannot), the burden would then shift to the defendants to present evidence of a\n\nlegitimate, nondiscriminatory reason for their actions. See Clifton Terrace Assoc., Ltd. v. United\n\nTech. Corp., 929 F. 2d 714, 722 (D.C. Cir. 1991). This point is easily established in the\n\ndefendants\u2019 favor by the undisputed facts described above. As discussed in Section IV.A, supra,\n\nFannie Mae determined that it should not pursue the May 2001 Proposal because the concept\n\nproposed was inconsistent with Fannie Mae\u2019s business model that required risk-sharing between\n\nFannie Mae and its DUS lenders, and the Risk-Based Capital Rules issued by OFHEO in July\n\n2001 obviated any need to pursue the proposal. Because plaintiff will not be able to point to any\n\nevidence establishing a reasonable inference that the defendant\u2019s proffered explanation is\n\nunworthy of credence, her complaint fails under the McDonnell Douglas framework. See, e.g.,\n\nClifton Terrace, 929 F. 2d at 722; Chauhan v. M. Alfieri Co., 897 F.2d 123, 127-28 (3d Cir.\n\n1990); Oliver v. Digital Equip. Corp., 846 F.2d 103, 109 (1st Cir. 1988); see also Tx. Dep\u2019t of\n\nCmty. Affairs v. Burdine, 450 U.S. 248, 256 (1981).\n\n\n\n                                                26\n\f   Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 33-2         Filed 06/21/2007       Page 27 of 36\n\n\n\n       C.      THERE IS NOT A SHRED OF EVIDENCE FROM WHICH A JURY COULD\n               FIND IN PLAINTIFF\u2019S FAVOR.\n\n       Where, as here, the defendants have met their burden of production, the burden-shifting\n\nframework disappears, and a court reviewing summary judgment looks to whether a reasonable\n\njury could infer intentional discrimination or retaliation from all the evidence, including \u201c\u2018(1) the\n\nplaintiff\u2019s prima facie case; (2) any evidence the plaintiff presents to attack the employer\u2019s\n\nproffered explanation for its action; and (3) any further evidence of discrimination that may be\n\navailable to the plaintiff (such as independent evidence of discriminatory statements or attitudes\n\non the part of the employer).\u2019\u201d Carter v. George Wash. Univ., 387 F.3d 872, 878 (D.C. Cir.\n\n2004) (quoting Waterhouse v. Dist. of Columbia, 298 F.3d 989, 992-93 (D.C. Cir. 2002); see\n\nalso Moore v. Ashcroft, 401 F. Supp. 2d 1, 22 (D.D.C. 2005) (\u201cIf Defendant is successful, then\n\nthe \u2018McDonnell Douglas framework \u2014 with its presumptions and burdens \u2014 disappears, and the\n\nsole remaining issue [is] discrimination vel non\u2019\u201d) (citing Reeves v. Sanderson Plumbing Prods.,\n\nInc., 530 U.S. 133 (2000)). Here, plaintiff\u2019s claim fails because (1) evidence to support her\n\nprima facie case is woefully deficient, (2) she has offered no evidence to attack defendants\u2019\n\nproffered explanation for declining to pursue the May 2001 Proposal, and (3) the record is\n\nnotably clear of any other evidence of discrimination.\n\n       Both contemporaneously with the May 2001 Proposal and through the course of\n\ndiscovery, all relevant decision-makers at Fannie Mae have pointed to objectively verifiable\n\nlegitimate non-discriminatory reasons why Fannie Mae chose to not contract with RMS. (See\n\nSection III.A & B.) Moreover, although plaintiff avers that Fannie Mae directed the business\n\noutlined in the May 2001 Proposal \u201cto a less qualified male contractor, Mr. Craig Ott,\u201d (Am.\n\nCompl. \u00b6 45), discovery has shown this is unquestionably not the case. The truth is that Fannie\n\nMae never actually chose between plaintiff and Mr. Ott; indeed, Fannie Mae chose to not pursue\n\n\n\n                                                 27\n\f     Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB         Document 33-2         Filed 06/21/2007       Page 28 of 36\n\n\n\nthe May 2001 Proposal with anyone. (See CITE.) Because plaintiff cannot produce any\n\nevidence that the business related to the May 2001 Proposal was given to anyone else, her claim\n\nsimply fails as a matter of law.\n\n        In short, considering all the evidence, the only conclusion a jury reasonably could reach\n\nis that Fannie Mae abstained from contracting with RMS \u2014 indeed abstained from contracting\n\nfor the proposed business altogether \u2014 because the proposal was unnecessary and strategically\n\ndisadvantageous.\n\nV.      DEFENDANTS ARE ENTITLED TO SUMMARY JUDGMENT ON\n        PLAINTIFF\u2019S TORTIOUS INTERFERENCE CLAIM.\n\n        As plaintiff herself has acknowledged, to succeed on a claim of tortious interference\n\nunder District of Columbia law, a plaintiff must show: \u201c(1) the existence of a valid business\n\nrelationship or expectancy; (2) knowledge of the relationship or expectancy on the part of\n\n[defendant]; (3) intentional interference inducing or causing a breach or termination of the\n\nrelationship or expectancy, and (4) resultant damage.\u201d (Plaintiff\u2019s Opposition to Defendants\u2019\n\nMotion to Dismiss, at 9 (Docket No. 12) (quoting Ulico Cas. Co. v. Prof\u2019l Indem. Agency, Inc.,\n\nCase No. 98-1018, 1999 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 8591, at * 4 (D.D.C. May 5, 1999).) The undisputed\n\nfacts demonstrate that plaintiff cannot meet this burden for four additional and independent\n\nreasons. First, because plaintiff has admitted that the facts underlying her tortious interference\n\nclaim relate to Fannie Mae\u2019s alleged refusal to do business with her, her claim fails as a matter of\n\nlaw because a party cannot interfere with its own contracts. (See Section V.A, supra.) Second,\n\nwhile plaintiff concedes that her tortious interference claim is based on defendants\u2019 refusal to do\n\nbusiness with her and thus is barred as a matter of law, discovery has shown that any claim\n\nplaintiff may assert with respect to a business relationship with CAM is nothing more than a\n\nhope that does not establish a valid business expectancy under the law. (See Section V.B, infra.)\n\n\n\n                                                 28\n\f   Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 33-2         Filed 06/21/2007        Page 29 of 36\n\n\n\nThird, plaintiff has failed to present any admissible evidence showing that defendants actually\n\nintended to interfere with her co-brokerage relationship with CAM. (See Section V.C, infra.)\n\nFourth, plaintiff has failed to present any facts that show that defendants\u2019 alleged interference\n\nactually impaired her co-brokerage agreement with CAM. (See Section V.D, infra.)\n\n       A.      PLAINTIFF\u2019S OWN STATEMENTS ESTABLISH THAT HER ALLEGATIONS\n               OF TORTIOUS INTERFERENCE ARE BASED ON FANNIE MAE\u2019S\n               PURPORTED REFUSAL TO DO BUSINESS WITH HER, AND THEREFORE\n               HER CLAIM CANNOT STAND AS A MATTER OF LAW.\n\n       Plaintiff\u2019s own testimony bears out the fact that her tortious interference claim is, at\n\nbottom, based on defendants\u2019 purported refusal to do business with her. When asked, \u201cSo\n\nfundamentally your claim related to the co-brokerage agreement is that Fannie Mae didn\u2019t do any\n\nbusiness with you; is that fair to say,\u201d plaintiff responded, \u201cThat\u2019s right.\u201d (May 7, 2007\n\nWilliams Dep. at 215; see also id. at 202-03.) Indeed, plaintiff stated that her \u201c[l]osses are\n\ncalculated based upon the amount of potential business that Fannie Mae did using structures\n\ndeveloped by me.\u201d (Williams Interrog. Resp. No. 13.) Plaintiff, however, fails to understand the\n\nbasic limits of a claim of tortious interference. It is well-established that a defendant may not\n\ntortiously interfere with its own contracts and business relationships. See Donahoe v. Watt, 546\n\nF. Supp. 753, 757 (D.D.C. 1982) (\u201cA defendant\u2019s conduct under his own contract with the\n\nplaintiff may or may not rise to the level of a breach of that contract, but it cannot support an\n\naction for interference with it.\u201d); see also Rosenkoff v. Finklestein, 195 F.2d 203, 205 (D.C. Cir.\n\n1952) (\u201cAn invalid promise cannot be turned into a valid claim by describing the promisor\u2019s\n\nrefusal to perform it as an interference either with the expectancies or with the contract rights of\n\nthe promisee.\u201d). Thus her tortious interference claim must be dismissed on this basis alone.\n\n       B.      PLAINTIFF\u2019S DID NOT HAVE A VALID BUSINESS EXPECTANCY FOR\n               FUTURE DEALS WITH CAM.\n\n       Even if plaintiff\u2019s tortious interference claim was sufficiently distinct from her proposed\n\n\n                                                 29\n\f   Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB            Document 33-2          Filed 06/21/2007       Page 30 of 36\n\n\n\nrelationship with Fannie Mae to permit her claim to proceed (and it is not), her \u201cco-brokerage\n\nagreement\u201d with CAM does not create a valid business expectancy. As this Court previously\n\nrecognized, \u201c[i]t is well-established that \u2018[a] protected relationship exists only if there is a\n\nreasonable likelihood or probability that a contract would have resulted; there must be something\n\nbeyond mere hope.\u2019\u201d (Mem. Op. at 16 (quoting Klein v. Grynberg, 44 F.3d 1497, 1506 (10th Cir.\n\n1995).) The undisputed evidence in this case demonstrates that this \u201cagreement\u201d (which no one\n\nhas been able to produce) was little more than a promise by Ms. Williams (or her company\n\nRMS) to provide CAM a commission if it secured insurance for future projects that Ms.\n\nWilliams or her company was working on. As Ms. Williams explained, \u201c[t]he agreement\n\nindicates that when CAM locates an insurance company for a project that RMS is working on,\n\nRMS agrees to compensate CAM through some form of split commission.\u201d (Jones Dep. Exh. 2,\n\nat FNMA.MBW.008003.) But plaintiff has not been able to provide evidence of anything more\n\nthan a \u201chope\u201d for future projects. Indeed, Bob Jones characterized all of CAM\u2019s work with Ms.\n\nWilliams as simply \u201cproduct development.\u201d (Jones Dep. at 33:17-21; see also March 28, 2007\n\nWilliams Dep. at 118:1-15.) Thus plaintiff\u2019s tortious interference claim fails for this reason as\n\nwell.\n\n        C.      PLAINTIFF CANNOT SHOW INTENTIONAL INTERFERENCE WITH HER\n                CO-BROKERAGE AGREEMENT.\n\n        Even if plaintiff\u2019s co-brokerage agreement created a valid business expectancy with\n\nCAM, her claims would still fail because she cannot demonstrate intentional interference with\n\nthat agreement. This Court previously held that plaintiff must make a \u201cstrong showing of intent\u201d\n\nin order to make out a claim for tortious interference. (See Mem. Op. at 17 (citing cases).)\n\nPlaintiff, however, fails to produce any admissible evidence that reveals any such intent, let\n\nalone the \u201cstrong showing\u201d necessary for her to proceed. Instead, she provides only vague and\n\n\n\n                                                  30\n\f     Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB              Document 33-2            Filed 06/21/2007          Page 31 of 36\n\n\n\nself-serving hearsay about statements defendants purportedly made to CAM and cites to a letter\n\nshe sent to both defendants Mae and CAM. (See Williams Interrog. Resp. Nos. 2, 9 & 10.) As\n\nexplained below, this \u201cevidence\u201d does not create a genuine issue of material fact.\n\n                 1.       Plaintiff\u2019s Self-Serving Hearsay Statements Do Not Create A\n                          Genuine Issue of Material Fact.\n\n        The Court permitted plaintiff\u2019s tortious interference claim to proceed to discovery based\n\non her allegation that defendants communicated \u201cknowingly false and defamatory\u201d information\n\nabout plaintiff to CAM. (Mem. Op. at 17.) However, in response to defendants\u2019 interrogatory\n\nrequests, the only evidence plaintiff could provide about these purported communications was\n\nher vague recollection of discussions she had with CAM president Bob Jones. (See Williams\n\nInterrog. Reponses Nos. 9 & 10.) In her deposition, plaintiff could not recall when these alleged\n\nconversations occurred, or what defendants supposed said to Mr. Jones. (See May 7, 2007\n\nWilliams Dep. at 222-23.) 14\n\n        In contrast to these vague and conclusory hearsay allegations propounded by plaintiff,\n\nFannie Mae has produced sworn declarations from defendants Huebscher and Lawch stating that\n\nthe alleged conversations never occurred. (See Huebscher Decl. \u00b6\u00b6 6 & 7; Lawch Decl. 5 & 6.)\n\nMore importantly, Mr. Jones \u2014 the other purported participant in this dialogue \u2014 testified under\n\noath that he could not recall a single conversation regarding plaintiff or her company with either\n\ndefendant Huebscher or defendant Lawch. 15 More specifically, Mr. Jones could not recall any\n\n\n\n14\n          Specifically, plaintiff states: \u201cI learned of Defendant actively discouraging CAM Financial from doing\nbusiness with me as a result of phone conversations from Bob Jones, President of CAM Financial,\u201d (See Williams\nInterrog. Resp. No. 9), and \u201cI learned of false and defamatory information about me being communicated to CAM\nFinancial through telephone conversations with Bob Jones, President of CAM Financial.\u201d (See id. at No. 10.)\n15\n          When asked, \u201cDid you ever have any conversations with Ms. Huebscher about Marialice Williams or Risk\nMitigation Strategists, LLC, for which Ms. Williams was not present,\u201d Mr. Jones responded, \u201cI just don\u2019t recall.\u201d\n(Jones Dep. at 43) When asked, \u201cWhether you had any discussions with Mr. Lawch about Marialice Williams or\nRisk Mitigation Strategies, LLC after Ms. Williams [plaintiff] left Fannie Mae,\u201d Mr. Jones responded, \u201cI don\u2019t\nrecall.\u201d When asked further, \u201cYou don\u2019t recall any?\u201d Mr. Jones responded, \u201cNo.\u201d (Id. at 46.)\n\n\n                                                       31\n\f     Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB              Document 33-2             Filed 06/21/2007          Page 32 of 36\n\n\n\ninstance where defendants discouraged CAM from business relationships with plaintiff, 16 or\n\nmade disparaging remarks about plaintiff. 17 Indeed, Mr. Jones could recall only one set of\n\ninnocuous remarks made by anyone from Fannie Mae with respect to plaintiff: those made by\n\nFannie Mae employees Rhoda Newman and Betty Dance that \u201cMarialice [plaintiff] was trying to\n\ndrum up business\u201d in her post-employment visits to the Fannie Mae offices. (Jones Dep. at 47.)\n\n        In the face of the sworn testimony provided by Fannie Mae, plaintiff\u2019s self-serving and\n\ninadmissible hearsay testimony is insufficient to defeat summary judgment. 18 Indeed, courts\n\nhave regularly granted summary judgment motions in similar circumstances. See, e.g., Poullard\n\nv. Smith Kline Beecham Corp., Case No. 02-1590, 2005 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 35182 (D.D.C. Nov.\n\n30, 2005) (granting summary judgment because plaintiff\u2019s claim of defamatory remarks were\n\nunsupported by deposition testimony of any of the alleged participants, and therefore only\n\nsecond-hand hearsay); In re Ashby Enterprises, Ltd., 47 B.R. 394, 397 (D.D.C. 1985) (affirming\n\nsummary judgment where there was no evidence in the record to support the conclusion that\n\ndefendants \u201cever contacted [plaintiff\u2019s] other creditors or in any other way tried to deter them\u201d);\n\nsee also Abbott v. Gale, 896 F. 2d 323 (8th Cir. 1990); Schindler v. Marshfield Clinic, Case No.\n\n\n\n16\n          When asked, \u201cDid Ms. Huebscher ever tell CAM Financial Services not to do business with Ms. Williams\nor Risk Mitigation Strategies,\u201d Mr. Jones responded, \u201cNot that I recall.\u201d (Jones Dep. at 43.) When asked, \u201cAnd after\nMs. Williams left Fannie Mae, I take it then that you don\u2019t recall any conversation in which Mr. Lawch told CAM\nnot to do business with Ms. Williams,\u201d Mr. Jones responded, \u201cI don\u2019t recall of any conversations.\u201d (Id. at 62.)\n17\n          When asked, \u201cDid Ms. Huebscher make any disparaging remarks about Ms. Williams or Risk Mitigation\nStrategists, LLC to you,\u201d Mr. Jones responded, \u201cI don\u2019t recall.\u201d (Jones Dep. at 44.) When asked, \u201cDid Ms.\nHuebscher ever discuss Ms. Williams\u2019 business acumen with CAM Financial or with you,\u201d Mr. Jones responded, \u201cI\ndon\u2019t have any knowledge or recall.\u201d (Id.) When asked, \u201cDo you recall whether Ms. Huebscher ever made any false\nstatements to you about Ms. Williams or Risk Mitigation Strategists, LLC,\u201d Mr. Jones responded, \u201cI have no recall.\nI don\u2019t think so.\u201d (Id.) When asked, \u201cAnd you don\u2019t recall any conversations in which Mr. Lawch made any\ndisparaging remarks about Ms. Williams after she left Fannie Mae,\u201d Mr. Jones responded, \u201cI don\u2019t recall of any.\u201d\n(Id. at 62-63.) When asked, \u201cAnd you don\u2019t recall any false statements that Mr. Lawch made to you about Ms.\nWilliams after she left Fannie Mae,\u201d Mr. Jones responded, \u201cWell, same answer; same question.\u201d (Id.)\n18\n          Plaintiff acknowledges that her knowledge of such conversations is unspecific hearsay, on which she has\nno personal knowledge: \u201cI had several conversations with [CAM President] Bob Jones where I was told of negative\nand defamatory things that were said about me. Did he tell me what they were precisely? No. But we know they\nwere said. He knows they were said. Richard Lawch knows they were said. You have to ask them.\u201d (May 7, 2007\nWilliams Dep. at 222.)\n\n\n                                                        32\n\f     Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB                Document 33-2             Filed 06/21/2007           Page 33 of 36\n\n\n\n05-705, 2007 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 1496, at *56 (W.D. Wis. Jan. 4, 2007); Richardson v. Rush-\n\nPresbyterian-St. Luke\u2019s Med. Ctr., Case No. 99-7540, 2002 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 6346 (N.D. Ill.\n\nMar. 18, 2002).\n\n                  2.       Plaintiff\u2019s Own Letter Describing Her Co-Brokerage\n                           Agreement Does Not Demonstrate Any Ill Intent By the\n                           Defendants.\n\n         The only \u201cevidence\u201d other than her self-serving hearsay that plaintiff cites in support of\n\nher tortious interference claim is a letter that she herself wrote to Fannie Mae in May 2001\n\ndescribing the co-brokerage agreement she had with CAM. (See Jones Dep. Exh. 2, at\n\nFNMA.MBW.008003.) The assertion that a letter written by plaintiff herself evidences any\n\nintent to interfere with plaintiff\u2019s co-brokerage agreement, let alone the \u201cstrong showing of\n\nintent\u201d necessary for plaintiff to survive summary judgment, is absurd on its face. 19 Moreover,\n\neven an evidentiary showing that defendants were attempting to \u201cpersuade\u201d plaintiff to end her\n\nco-brokerage agreement with CAM would be insufficient to show intentional interference. See,\n\ne.g., Bowhead Info. Tech. Servs., LLC v. Catapult Tech., Ltd., 377 F. Supp. 2d 166, 173-75\n\n(D.D.C. 2005) (efforts by the defendant to dissuade one of the parties from entering into a\n\ncontract with another was not \u201canything other than a general intent to interfere with a plaintiff\u2019s\n\nbusiness dealings, which is insufficient to impose liability\u201d).\n\n         Plaintiff\u2019s argument that this letter constitutes interference because Fannie Mae had been\n\nexpanding its business relationship with CAM and used her letter as a \u201cstalling tactic, one more\n\ntactic . . . to exclude me [plaintiff] from the business I [plaintiff] had created\u201d (May 7, 2007\n\nWilliams Dep. at 204) is baseless. First, it is nonsensical to suggest that a letter describing the\n\n\n19\n          This Court previously recognized plaintiff\u2019s burden to show a \u201cstrong showing of intent\u201d on the part of\ndefendants. See Mem. Op. at 19; see also Chambliss v. Amtrak, Case No. 05-2490, 2007 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 11522,\nat *96 (D.D.C. Feb. 20, 2007) (\u201cIntentionally procuring a breach of contract requires \u2018a strong showing of intent . . .\nto establish liability.\u2019\u201d (quoting Genetic Sys. v. Abbott Labs., 691 F. Supp. 407, 423 (D.D.C. 1998)).)\n\n\n                                                          33\n\f   Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 33-2         Filed 06/21/2007       Page 34 of 36\n\n\n\nrelationship \u2014 and which Ms. Williams shared with CAM before sending it to defendants \u2014\n\ninterfered with that relationship. (See Jones Dep. Exh. 2, at FNMA.MBW.008003-8004;\n\nFNMA.MBW.007996-7998, attached hereto at Exhibit T.) Second, the evidence is undisputed\n\nthat Fannie Mae was not expanding its business with CAM at the time. Indeed, it had been\n\nalmost two years since CAM had brokered an insurance deal for Fannie Mae and CAM was on\n\nthe verge of filing a lawsuit against Fannie Mae. (See CAM Amended Complaint.) Third, a\n\nletter written by plaintiff cannot serve as evidence of ill intent by defendants. See, e.g., Moore v.\n\nAshcroft, 401 F. Supp. 2d 1, 41 (D.D.C. 2005) (granting summary judgment because \u201cplaintiff\n\nhas provided no evidence to support her allegation other than her own personal, subjective\n\nopinion; she has . . . offered no supporting testimony through other witnesses . . . and has\n\nprovided no independent documentation\u201d).\n\n       D.      DEFENDANTS DID NOT CAUSE THE TERMINATION OF PLAINTIFF\u2019S CO-\n               BROKERAGE AGREEMENT.\n\n       A claim of tortious interference has, as one its four required elements, proof that the\n\nalleged interference \u201cinduc[ed] or caus[ed] a breach or termination of the relationship or\n\nexpectancy.\u201d Bennett Enters. v. Domino\u2019s Pizza, 45 F.3d 493, 499 (D.C. Cir. 1995) (citing\n\nGenetic Sys. Corp. v. Abbott Labs., 691 F. Supp. 407, 422-23 (D.D.C. 1998)). Even if plaintiff\n\ncould establish intent to interfere with her relationship with CAM, there is no evidence\n\nestablishing a causal link between defendants\u2019 alleged actions and the dissolution of plaintiff\u2019s\n\npurported \u201cco-brokerage agreement\u201d with CAM.\n\n       To the contrary, testimony by both CAM\u2019s president and plaintiff demonstrate that the\n\nco-brokerage agreement continued in effect until plaintiff lost her brokerage license. First, CAM\n\npresident Bob Jones testified that he believed the co-brokerage agreement was in effect when he\n\nleft the company in 2005. (See Jones Dep. at 35 (\u201cI know no reason why it [agreement] was ever\n\n\n\n                                                 34\n\f     Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB                 Document 33-2             Filed 06/21/2007            Page 35 of 36\n\n\n\nterminated.\u201d).) More importantly, Mr. Jones testified that he continued to hold plaintiff\u2019s\n\nbusiness capabilities in high regard, refuting any inference that the allegedly disparaging remarks\n\nabout plaintiff \u2014 remarks that defendants, of course, submit never occurred \u2014 had any causal\n\neffect on CAM\u2019s business with plaintiff. 20 Second, plaintiff testified that her agreement with\n\nCAM terminated due to her own actions: the loss of her brokerage license. 21 In short, because\n\nplaintiff can point to no actions of defendants that terminated her co-brokerage agreement with\n\nCAM, plaintiff\u2019s cause of action for tortious interference cannot stand. See, e.g., Whetstone\n\nCandy Co. v. Nat\u2019l Consumers League, 360 F. Supp. 2d 77, 83 (D.D.C. 2004) (granting summary\n\njudgment in part because \u201cno specific evidence was offered as to the existence of or breach of a\n\ncontract, and none was offered as to the causal connection, if any, between the two events\u201d).\n\n                                                    CONCLUSION\n\n         For the foregoing reasons, the defendants respectfully request that their motion for\n\nsummary judgment be granted, and that plaintiff\u2019s two remaining claims be dismissed, in their\n\nentirety, with prejudice.\n\n\nJune 21, 2007                                                     Respectfully submitted,\n\n\n\n\n                                                                  /s/ Sarah A. Goldfrank             ____\n                                                                  Evelyn L. Becker (D.C. Bar No. 451163)\n                                                                  Sarah A. Goldfrank (D.C. Bar No. 482382)\n                                                                  Kyra A. Grundeman (D.C. Bar No. 493622)\n                                                                  O\u2019Melveny & Myers LLP\n                                                                  1625 Eye Street, N.W.\n                                                                  Washington, D.C. 20006\n\n20\n         For example, Mr. Jones testified that \u201cThe quality of her [plaintiff\u2019s] work was very good,\u201d and \u201c[plaintiff]\nwas, in my opinion, critical to making those transactions work.\u201d (Jones Dep. at 80.)\n21\n         Plaintiff testified on this point as follows: \u201cI don\u2019t recall when it [the agreement] expired. I\u2019m not sure if it\nhad a term in here . . . Well, it certainly had to expire when I was no longer a broker. I haven\u2019t been a broker for two\nyears.\u201d (May 7, 2007 Williams Dep. at 224.) Plaintiff\u2019s brokerage license lapsed in April 2003. (See District of\nColumbia Dept. of Insurance, Securities & Banking Licensee Look-up.)\n\n\n                                                           35\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB   Document 33-2      Filed 06/21/2007      Page 36 of 36\n\n\n\n                                         (202) 383-5300 (phone)\n                                         (202) 383-5414 (fax)\n\n                                         Counsel for Defendants Federal National\n                                         Mortgage Association, Richard Lawch and\n                                         Grace Huebscher\n\n\n                                         Jonathan L. Griffith (D.C. Bar No. 456080)\n                                         Fannie Mae\n                                         3900 Wisconsin Avenue, N.W.\n                                         Washington, D.C. 20016\n                                         (202) 752-6167 (phone)\n                                         (202) 752-4948 (fax)\n\n                                         Counsel for Defendant Federal National\n                                         Mortgage Association\n\n\n\n\n                                  36\n\f","ocr_status":2,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:44:49-07:00","document_number":"33","attachment_number":1,"pacer_doc_id":"04501888493","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":2,"description":"Memorandum in Support of Motion for Summary Judgment","acms_document_guid":""},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686742/","id":2686742,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/33/2/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.654826-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:09.564173-08:00","sha1":"f7021c41661c86defa38ce5b68b33e943efcbcf6","page_count":29,"file_size":789967,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.2.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.2.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":"Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-3 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 1 of 29\n\nEXHIBIT A\n\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-3 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 2 of 29\n\nIN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\nFOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA\n\nMARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS,\n\nPlaintiff,\n\nCivil Action No. 1:05CV01483\nVS.\n\nJudge John D. Bates\n\nFEDERAL NATIONAL MORTGAGE\n\nASSOCIATION, et al.\nDECLARATION OF GRACE\n\nDefendants. HUEBSCHER\n\nI, Grace Huebscher, hereby declare as follows:\n\n1. I have been employed by the Federal National Mortgage Association (\u201cFannie\nMae\u201d) since 1996. I currently hold the position of Vice President for Capital Markets.\n\n2. Attached hereto at Tab 1 are true and correct copies of excerpts from the\ntranscript of my deposition testimony in the lawsuit entitled CAM Financial Services, Inc. v.\nGeneral Star Nat\u2019! Insurance Co., et al., Civil Action No. 01-314 (S.D. Miss.) (\u201cCAM Financial\nlawsuit\u201d). That testimony is true and accurate.\n\n3. Although I met with Ms. Williams concerning the May 2001 Proposal, I did not\npromise Ms. Williams any business at that or any other time.\n\n4. I did not have any business interactions with Ms. Williams after December 20,\n2001, when CAM Financial Services, Inc. (\u201cCAM Financial\u201d) amended the complaint in the\nCAM Financial lawsuit to add Fannie Mae as a party.\n\n5. I did not have any business interactions with any officer, director or other\nrepresentative from CAM Financial after December 20, 2001.\n\n6. I never made false and defamatory comments regarding Ms. Williams to any\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-3 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 3 of 29\n\nofficer, director or other representative from CAM Financial.\n\n7. I never discouraged CAM Financial from doing business with Ms. Williams.\n\nI declare under penalty of perjury that the foregoing is true and correct. Executed on this 18th of\n\nEBSCHER\n\nJune 2007 at Washington, DC.\n\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-3 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 4 of 29\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-3 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 5 of 29\n\non IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\n2 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF MISSISSIPPI\n3 SOUTHERN DIVISION\n4 wn eee ee ee ene x\n\n5 CAM FINANCIAL SERVICES, INC., :\n\n6 Plaintiff, : Case No.1:01cv314BrR\n7 \u00a5.\n\n8 GENERAL STAR NATIONAL INSURANCE :\n\n9 COMPANY; GENERAL STAR INDEMNITY : \u00b0\n10 COMPANY; GENERAL STAR MANAGEMENT:\n11 COMPANY, GENERAL RE CORPORATION;:\n12 GENERAL REINSURANCE CORPORATION;:\n13 CRUMP INSURANCE SERVICES OF\n\n14 MEMPHIS, INC.; CRAIG OTT,\n\n15 INDIVIDUALLY AND IN HIS\n\n16 REPRESENTATIVE CAPACITY AS VICE:\n\n17 PRESIDENT OF GENERAL STAR\n\n18 MANAGEMENT COMPANY\n\n19 FEDERAL NATIONAL MORTGAGE\n\n20 ASSOCIATION\n\n21 (FANNIE MAE),\n\n22 Defendants.\n\nQB -n ee en ee rere Xx\n\n24 Washington, D.C.\n\n25 Tuesday, March 25, 2003\n\nMarch 25, 2003 CAM of FM - Huebscher Page 1\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.002343\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-3 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 6 of 29\n\n00002\n1 Videotaped deposition of GRACE ANN\n\n2 HUEBSCHER, a witness herein, called for examination\n3 by counsel for Plaintiff in the above-entitled\n\n4 matter, pursuant to notice, the witness being duly\n\n5 sworn by MARY GRACE CASTLEBERRY, a Notary Public in\n6 and for the District of Columbia, taken at the Four\n\n7 Seasons Hotel, 2800 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.,\n\n8 Washington, D.C., at 9:53 a.m., Tuesday, March 25,\n\n9 2003, and the proceedings being taken down by\n\n10 Stenotype by MARY GRACE CASTLEBERRY, RPR, and\n11 transcribed under her direction.\n\n12\n\n13\n\n14\n\n15\n\n16\n\n17\n\n18\n\n19\n\n20\n\n21\n\n22\n\n23\n\n24\n\n25\n\nMarch 25, 2003 CAM of FM - Huebscher Page 2\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.002344\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-3 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 7 of 29\n\n00013\n1 National Cooperative Bank. And from 1989 to 1994, I\n\n2, believe, I was with National Cooperative Bank running\n3 their mortgage company in Washington, D.C. And from\n4 1994 to 1996, I was with Hamilton Securities and from\n5 1996 until now, I was with Fannie Mae.\n\n6  Q. And I want to come back to a couple of\n\n7 those. The only professional degrees, then, you have\n\n8 are your B.A. in economics and Spanish Literature?\n\n9 A. Yes.\n\n10 @Q. When you went to work for Fannie Mae in\n\n11 1996, what position did you originally come on board\n12 as?\n\n13. A. Iwas the director of aggregation.\n\n14. Q. What does the director of aggregation do?\n\n15 A. Iwas hired to start Fannie Mae's\n\n16 multifamily conduit which was a means by which we\n17 allowed our lenders, which normally risk share with\n18 us, to deliver loans to us on a nonrecourse basis.\n\n19 Q. AndI'msorry, did you say risk share?\n\n20 A. Yes. And, you know, pause if you have --\n\n21 Luse a lot of lingo.\n\n22 QQ. Iunderstand. And some of that I may ask\n\n23 you to define as we go along. Let me see. You said\n24 you were hired to start Fannie Mae\u2019s multifamily\n\n25 conduit which is a means by which we allowed our\n\nMarch 25, 2003 CAM of FM - Huebscher Page 13\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.002355\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-3 \u00a9 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 8 of 29\n\n00014\n1 lenders, which we normally share risk with us, to\n\n2 deliver loans on a nonrecourse basis.\n\n3 Can you give me that in layman's terms?\n\n4 A. Sure. Fannie Mae multifamily, as its\n\n\u00a7 business model, primarily chooses to purchase loans\n6 from lenders and would like those lenders to share in\n7 the risk of that sale. Our prominent program is the\n\n8 DUS program which stands for delegated underwriting\n9 and servicing.\n\n10 That's -- the majority of the volume or\n\n11 purchases of mortgages through multifamily come\n12 through that channel. And we buy loans from the DUS\n13 lenders one by one, and the lenders, when they sell\n14 them to us, they agree to share in the losses if any\n\n15 losses occur on a loan-by-loan basis.\n\n16 Q. Andso when you say one by one, that\u2019s on\n17 aloan-by-loan basis --\n\n18 A. Right.\n\n19 Q. --as opposed to a lender-by-lender basis.\n\n20 A. Yes, with that specific lender. All the\n\n21 DUS lenders share risk according to a prescribed\n\n22 formula on a loan level basis and they take 5 percent\n23 of the first loss of any loan, if in fact it goes\n\n24 into default, then they share thereafter. That's the\n\n25 primary majority of our business and has always been.\n\nMarch 25, 2003 CAM of FM - Huebscher Page 14\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.002356\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-3 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 9 of 29\n\n00015\n1 We also buy pools from lenders from mostly\n\n2 depositories and insurance companies and there too\n\n3 typically we require that they share risk in those\n\n4 portfolios.\n\n5 What had happened in mid-1980s is that\n\n6 many of our DUS lenders were going to Wall Street and\n7 selling their loans without any risk sharing. And\n\n8 typically they do this because either they've had too\n\n9 much concentration to one borrower, maybe a\n\n10 geographic concentration, or they just choose not to\n\n11 take a risk in a particular market so that they were\n\n12 selling those loans to the Wall Street firms.\n\n13 The Wall Street firms, without any risk\n\n14 sharing. The Wall Street firms would then turn\n\n15 around and create securities, typically REMICs, which\n16 are real estate mortgage investment conduits. And\n\n17 those pools and REMICs were basically rated by rating\n18 agencies and chopped up into AAA, AA, all the way\n19 down to unrated securities and sold to third parties.\n\n20 What was happening was many of the Wall\n\n21 Street firms were coming to Fannie Mae and saying to\n22 Fannie Mae, would you please wrap the risk for AAA\n23 down to BBB, which is the risk profile we typically\n24 like to take. And what Fannie Mae discovered is why\n\n25 not provide this service directly to our lenders\n\nMarch 25, 2003 CAM of FM - Huebscher Page 15\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.002357\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-3 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 10 of 29\n\n00016\n1 rather than having them go through a Wall Street firm\n\n2 who is going to take a slice and, you know, basically\n3 improve the economics.\n\n4 QQ. And let Fannie Mae keep that slice that\n\n5 was going to the Wall Street firm?\n\n6 A. Orsharing it with the lenders, just\n\n7 improving the economics, or even passing that on to a\n8 savings to the borrowers ultimately who are\n\n9 multifamily owners of properties who are taking out\n10 these mortgages. So that was our job and we started\n11 out doing exactly what the Wall Street firms were\n\n12 doing, which is taking a position in the loans,\n\n13 buying the loans, waiting until we had enough to\n\n14 aggregate into a REMIC, going to a rating agency,\n15 having them all rated, Fannie Mae would wrap through\n16 BBB and either buy those securities ourselves or sell\n17 them to a third party and we would also sell the B\n\n18 pieces.\n\n19 We really only did it to provide an extra\n\n20 service to our DUS lenders really as more of a - as\n21 trying to be good, you know, just to provide\n\n22 basically another outlet for them in case they needed\n23 it. It's not something that they would primarily\n\n24 choose to do, nor would we primarily choose to do,\n\n25 but it was an added service on top of our flagship\n\nMarch 25, 2003 CAM of FM - Huebscher Page 16\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.002358\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-3 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 11 of 29\n\n00017\n1 product of DUS.\n\n2  Q. When you say that it is just an added\n\n3 service and is not something that you would choose to\n4 do -- and I want to make sure that I'm understanding\n\n5 this. And I'm not trying to put words in your mouth,\n6 Do not hesitate to correct me if I\n\n7 characterize your testimony in any way that is not\n\n8 correct. When you say it's not something that Fannie\n9 Mae would choose to do, was this a source of\n\n10 significant revenue for Fannie Mae to perform these\n\n11 securitizations?\n\n12 MR. WIMBERLY: Objection, form.\n13 THE WITNESS: No, it wasn't.\n14 BY MR. WISER:\n\n15 QQ. What sort of volume are you talking about\n16 in terms of performing these securitizations on an\n\n17 annual basis once the program gets started?\n\n18 MR. WIMBERLY: Objection, form.\n19 THE WITNESS: You mean how many mortgages?\n20 BY MR. WISER:\n\n21  Q. How many mortgages and the unpaid\n22 principal balance.\n\n23 +A. It varied, but in terms of a percentage of\n24 our volume, it was, you know, minuscule.\n\n25  Q. And Ican appreciate that because of\n\nMarch 25, 2003 CAM of FM - Huebscher Page 17\n\n_ CONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.002359\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-3 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 12 of 29\n\n00018\n1 understanding what Fannie Mae's principal line is\n\n2 but, at the same time, can you give me something that\n3 is not expressed in terms of its relationship to the\n\n4 principal business but rather a dollar figure? What\n\n5 was the typical unpaid principal balance of loans\n\n6 that were securitized in 1998, approximately?\n\n7 MR. WIMBERLY: Objection to form.\n\n8 THE WITNESS: It could be -- I don't\n\n9 remember the exact amounts but 70 million to maybe\n10 150 million compared to total volume in that given\n11 year of maybe 8 to 10 billion.\n\n12 BY MR. WISER:\n\n13. Q. That would have gone through the DUS\n\n14 program?\n\n15 <A. No. The 70 to 150 million would have been\n16 what would have gone through aggregation on this\n17 nonrecourse basis versus 8 to 10 billion in annual\n18 volume.\n\n19 Q. And asked you just because it was the\n\n20 first year that came into my head for 1998. Has that\n\n21 increased since 19987\n\n22 MR. WIMBERLY: Objection to form.\n23 THE WITNESS: No.\n24 BY MR. WISER:\n\n25 Q. Has it stayed approximately the same?\n\nMarch 25, 2003 CAM of FM - Huebscher Page 18\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.002360\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-3 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 13 of 29\n\n00019\n] A. And less at times.\n\n2  Q. We'll get back to that. You started, I\n\n3 believe you said, as the director of aggregation?\n\n4 A. Uh-huh.\n\n5 QQ. And what happened -- I mean, what was\n\n6 your -- give me how you have progressed through\n\n7 various positions at Fannie Mae since that time.\n\n8 A. Ive worked for Richard Lawch the whole\n\n9 time I've been at Fannie Mae. Richard has also\n\n10 expanded his responsibilities over time and as he's\n11 expanded, I've taken on some of his responsibilities.\n12 I was running aggregation - I still actually do run\n\n13 aggregation although it's part of a team which I\n\n14 manage.\n\n15 I expanded into managing pool purchases\n\n16 from depositories and insurance companies, | helped\n17 create another channel, our MFLEX lenders, which is\n18 basically just instead of buying pools at one\n\n19 particular point in time from a depository, we would\n20 buy loan by loan from depositories using risk\n\n21 sharing. And I've more recently gotten involved with\n22 product development and customer management\n\n23 responsibilities in the DUS world as well.\n\n24  Q. When you say product development, what\n\n25 does that include?\n\nMarch 25, 2003 CAM of FM - Huebscher Page 19\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.002361\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-3 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 14 of 29\n\n00239\n1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\n2 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF MISSISSIPPI\n3. SOUTHERN DIVISION\n4 --------------+ x\n\n5 CAM FINANCIAL SERVICES, INC.,_:\n. 6 Plaintiff, : Case No.\n7 vs. : 1:01cv314BrR\n8 GENERAL STAR NATIONAL INSURANCE :\n9 COMPANY; GENERAL STAR INDEMNITY :\n10 COMPANY, GENERAL STAR MANAGEMENT:\n11 COMPANY, GENERAL RE CORPORATION;:\n12 GENERAL REINSURANCE CORPORATION::\n13 CRUMP INSURANCE SERVICES OF\n14 MEMPHIS, INC.; CRAIG OTT;\n15 INDIVIDUALLY AND IN HIS \u00a9\n16 REPRESENTATIVE CAPACITY AS VICE :\n17 PRESIDENT OF GENERAL STAR\n_18 MANAGEMENT COMPANY |\n19 FEDERAL NATIONAL MORTGAGE\n20 ASSOCIATION (FANNIE MAE),\n\n21 Defendants.\n\nQQ ----- een eee ee- x\n\n23\u00b0 Washington, D.C.\n\n24 Wednesday, March 26, 2003\n25\n\nMarch 26, 2003 CAM of FM - Huebscher . Page 239\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.002581\n\f00240\n\nCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-3\n\n1. Continued Videotaped Deposition of:\n\n2\n\nGRACE HUEBSCHER -\n\n3 the witness, called for examination by counsel\n\n4 for the Plaintiff, pursuant to notice and\n\n5 agreement, commencing at 9:20 a.m., at the Four\n\n6 Seasons Hotel, 2800 Pennsylvania Avenue NW,\n\n7 before Virlana Kardash, RPR, CSR, a Notary Public\n\n8 in and for the District of Columbia, when were\n\n9 present on behalf of the respective parties:\n\n10\n1\n12\n13\n14\n15\n16\n17\n18\n19\n20\n21\n22\n23\n24\n25\n\nAPPEARANCES:\n\nOn behalf of the Plaintiff:\nN. WISER, Esquire\nBYRD & WISER\n\n145 Main Street\n\nBiloxi, Mississippi 39530\n228-432-8123\n\nOn behalf of the Defendant Fannie Mae:\nG. WIMBERLY, JR., Esquire\nMcGLINCHEY STAFFORD\n\n643 Magazine Street\n\nNew Orleans, Louisiana 70130\n504-586-1200\n\nFiled 06/21/2007\n\nMarch 26, 2003 CAM of FM - Huebscher\n\nPage 15 of 29\n\nPage 240\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.002582\n\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-3 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 16 of 29\n\n00448\n1 Or had there been meetings prior to this\n\n2 time?\n\n3. A I believe there were other meetings.\n\n4 Q_ When did those meetings start?\n\n\u201c5 A They could have been over probably a\n\n_ 6 couple of months before this because Renee is the\n\n7 boss of, you know, the big boss of the division\n\n8 that would have written this business and was\n\n- 9 coming in to do last-minute due diligence.\n\n10 Q_ That is Renee Henderson that's\n\n11 referenced in the first paragraph?\n12 A Yes.\n\n13 Q_ Whois Gavin?\n\n14 A Gavin Wellington works for Walter.\n\n15 Bauman and provides the equivalent pricing and\n16 analytics that Rick and Walter, who have been\n17 referred to in the past, are providing now in\n\n18 aggregation.\n\n19 Q They're the number crunchers?\n\n20 A Yes.\n\n21 Q Got you. And I believe the question I\n22 was in the process of asking before I sidetracked\n23 myself is is it your testimony that the reason\n\n24 that it took approximately eight to ten months\n\n\u201825 after Craig Ott's original proposal was finding\n\nMarch 26, 2003 CAM of FM - Huebscher Page 448\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.002790\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-3 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 17 of 29\n\n00449\n1 someone that was willing to write this kind of\n\n2 insurance?\n3 MR. WIMBERLY: Objection. Form.\n4 THE WITNESS: ] think that's one\n5 reason. In addition, there really hasn't been a\n6 compelling need either on our part, that really\n7 aggregation has not produced the kind of volume --\n8 hasn't really produced significant volume ever. _\n9 It's just not a mainstream product for us.\n10 BY MR. WISER:\n11. Q Whyisthat?\n12 A. AsI mentioned in prior testimony,\n13 Fannie Mae's flagship product DUS, Delegated\n14 Underwriting and Servicing, and its business model\n15 in general is more reliant on seller recourse than\n16 it is on third-party recourse partly -- mostly\n17 because we like our selling entities, our seller\n18 servicers, to have what we call \"skin of the\n19 game.\"\n20 So it's our preference to do it that way.\n21 If our programs are all delegated and the\n22 individuals that are selling and servicing for us\n- 23 are doing the underwriting and credit-risk\n24 analysis for us on our behalf, we would like them\n\n25 to have a stake in the game.\n\nMarch 26, 2003 CAM of FM - Huebscher Page 449\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.002791\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-3 Filed 06/21/2007 ~=Page 18 of 29\n\n00461\n1 a matter of best evidence, but you didn't ask me\n\n2 to bring it today.\n3 MR. WISER: I understand that. AndI'm \u2014\n\n4 not suggesting that I did.\n\n3 MR. WIMBERLY: It's available to you,\n\n6 Mr. Wiser.\n\n7. MR. WISER: I would like to get that\n\n8 back.\n\n9 MR. WIMBERLY: I assure you we'll take\n10 care of it. .\n11 MR. WISER: And the reason I was\n\n12 mentioning it now is that I did go back and look,\n13 andin looking at the documents that CAM has\n14 produced, this is all we received. It was just\n\n15 this one page.\n\n16\u00b0 Therefore, I was going to check and make\n17 sure. I've been advised that this is all that was\n18 in the envelope. So while there may be more to\n19 this document than 9692, that's all that we've\n\n20 got. And everything that was produced to you was\n21 all that we received. .\n\n22 MR. WIMBERLY: So noted.\n\n23 BY MR. WISER:\n\n24 Q Ms. Huebscher, have you seen this\n\n25 e-mail before?\n\nMarch 26, 2003 CAM of FM - Huebscher Page 461\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.002803\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-3 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 19 of 29\n\n00462\n1 A Yes.\n\n2 Q Do you recall the substance of the\n3 communications that were contained in the e-mail?\n4 A Yes.\n\u20185  Q > What's this about?\n6 A Thisis Marialice approached Rhoda and\n7 said that she's had some conversations with some\n8 of the DUS community about reinsuring their DUS\n9 risk, and that's basically, I think, the nature of\n10 it.\n11 Q. And what was the response to Fannie Mae\n12 upon receipt of this information from .\n13 Ms. Williams?\n14 MR. WIMBERLY: Objection. Form.\n15. THE WITNESS: Did you say what was the\n16 response by Fannie Mae?\n17 BY MR. WISER:\n18 Q_ Yes.\n19 A As you can see from my e-mail reply,\n20 I'm asking Richard for advice. At this point in\n21 time, I'm not really that involved with DUS. In\n22 fact, I was just beginning to be more involved --\n23 well, no -- it's 2002 -- yes.\n24 So I wasn't really that involved with DUS.\n\u201825 Sol'm asking him is this something that we want\n\nMarch 26, 2003 CAM of FM - Huebscher Page 462\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.002804\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-3 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 20 of 29\n\n00463\n_1 topursue. And actually, I was surprised that\n\n2 Richard wanted to pursue it in light of what I had\n3 just said in my previous testimony, which is we\n4 like the DUS lenders to have risk, to have at\n. 5 risk, and wouldn't necessarily want them to rely\n\n6 on third party to reinsurance. .\n\n7 But as you see, what Richard has said back\n8 here, we also were in the process of receiving and\n9 finalizing what were going to be Fannie Mae's\n10 risk-based capital guidelines for OFHEO,\n11 O-F-H-E-O. And that's Fannie Mae's regulator.\n12 And so I think he was trying to keep all of\n13 his options open, and I think -- and then you see\n14 my reply there.\n15 Q_ Isee that, in forwarding this message\n16 on to Richard Lawch, you comment that, \"My gut is\n17 no.\"\n18 A Yes. My gut is no based on what I just\n19 said; I was really surprised that we would\n20 consider that from a business perspective. That .\n21 wasn't really consistent with what I understood\n22 our business model to be.\n\n23 Q So the fact that you said, \"Do we want\n24 to pursue with her\" was not really a reference to\n\n25 Marialice Williams but, rather, was directed as to\n\nMarch 26, 2003 CAM of FM - Huebscher Page 463\u00b0\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.002805\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JUDB Document 33-3 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 21 of 29\n\n00464\n1 the subject matter itself; is that correct?\n2 A Pretty much.\n3 Q_ What was Richard's response?\n4 A just explained that.\n5 Q_ Would you give that to me again.\n6 A Sure. \"If OFHEO comes back with bad\n\n7 RBC rules, we may be interested. Are these\n8 different players than Craig is showing us?\"\n9 Q_ And RBC rules. would be the risk-based\n10 capital?\n11 A Yes.\n12 Q What is it about bad RBC rules that\n13 might have interested?\n14 A AsI mentioned in my testimony just\n15 previous to this is that we were in the midst of\n16 receiving revised guidelines from our regulator .\n17 OFHEO, and we weren't certain how they were going -\n18 to view the DUS entities.\n19 Many of our DUS entities are unrated\n20 entities; they don't have official long-term debt\n21 rating. So we were uncertain of what kind of\n22 treatment they would have. So what I think\n\n- 93 Richard must have been jumping to as a possibility\n24 is if, in fact, there's un-- like you know, say\n\n25 they penalize us for more capital, would we be\n\nMarch 26, 2003 CAM of FM - Huebscher _ Page 464\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.002806\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-3 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 22 of 29\n\n00465\n1 better off, through some kind of reinsurance of\n\n2 their risk, getting a higher rated counterparty so\n3 we'd have to post less capital against that\n4 business.\n\u20185. Q > Why do you respond that, \"If we want to\n_ \u00a9 engage Craig on the project, it might be a better\n7 choice\"?\n8 MR. WIMBERLY: Objection.\n9 Mischaracterization. Misleading.\n10 THE WITNESS: This is, again, a very --\n11 there's thousands of things happening in our\n12 business. This is probably one of those things\n13 that's a real quick e-mail exchange between\n14 Richard and I and is so tangential to the business\n15 athand. .\n16 But probably what I'm saying - keep in mind\n17 this is May, 2001. You know, we had successful\n18 Gen Star transactions with Craig. Craig has now\n19 brought us, you know, Great American. We've had\n20 success with him.\n21 So is he potentially more proven to help out\n22 in this area? We did not pursue it, by the way.\n23 And we did not pursue it with Marialice.\n24 BY MR. WISER:\n25 Q. Why if the DUS lender had approached\n\nMarch 26, 2003 CAM of FM - Huebscher . Page 465\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.002807\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-3 \u2014 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 23 of 29\n\n00466\n\"1, Marialice, would you consider going to someone\n\n2 else besides Marialice Williams?\n3. A I think at the end of the day we\n4 actually had some DUS lenders approach us and\n_ 5 said, \u201cAre you okay with us talking to Marialice?\"\n6 And we said, \"Sure.\"\n7 Q_ Who were those DUS lenders?\n8 A I think Lend Lease was one of those.\n9 Q Okay. Any others?\n10 A I don't remember the other names. So\n11 we didn't prohibit it from happening. .\n12 Q. There is a reference here, in the very\n13 top, in your last response there, \"Maybe you and I\n14 can discuss or put on agenda for our team's weekly\n15 strategy meeting\"?\n16 A Uh-huh.\n17 Q_ What is the team\u2019s weekly strategy\n18 meeting?\n19 A. It was Richard's direct reports at the\n20 time, those individuals that were reportedly\n21 directly to Richard Lawch.\n22 Q Was that a formal meeting that,\n\u2019 23 theoretically, took place each week?\n24 A Theoretically took place each week.\n25 Q Did it, in fact, take place each week?\n\nMarch 26, 2003 CAM of FM - Huebscher Page 466\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.002808\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-3 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 24 of 29\n\n00502\n1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT |\n\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT OF MISSISSIPPI\n\n2 SOUTHERN DIVISION\nmame eee er nn\n30 4\nCAM FINANCIAL SERVICES, INC.,\n4 :\nPlaintiff, :\n5 : Case No.\nVv. ~ | :01icv314BrR\n6\n\nGENERAL STAR NATIONAL INSURANCE :\n\n7 COMPANY; GENERAL STAR INDEMNITY : |\nCOMPANY; GENERAL STAR MANAGEMENT :\n\n8 COMPANY, GENERAL RE CORPORATION; :\n\n_ CRUMP INSURANCE SERVICES OF _ :\n\n9 MEMPHIS, INC.; CRAIG OTT, :\nINDIVIDUALLY ANDINHIS ~~:\n\n10 REPRESENTATIVE CAPACITY AS VICE :\nPRESIDENT OF GENERAL STAR :\n\n11 MANAGEMENT COMPANY; FEDERAL\n\n12 NATIONAL MORTGAGE ASSOCIATION\n13 (FANNIE MAE),\n\n14\n15 Defendants.\n\n16\n\n17 -------------r--- x\n\n18 \u201cWashington, D.C. .\n19 \u2018Thursday, March 27, 2003\n\n20 The continued deposition of GRACE HUEBSCHER,\n21 called for examination by counsel for Plaintiff in -\n. 22 the above-entitled matter, pursuant to notice, at\n23 the Four Seasons Hotel, 2800 Pennsylvania Avenue,\n24 N.W., Washington, D.C., Room 478, convened at 9:26\n25 a.m., before Sandy Medford Nelson, a notary public\n\nMarch 27, 2003 CAM of FM - Huebscher Page 502\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.002843\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-3 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 25 of 29\n\n00503\n\nuo Oo TS DH WH & WH WN\n\nmw wR N KR wD em\nwm \u20ac Ov &\u00a3 5 Ce Daakrzeaose2as\n\nMarch 27, 2003 CAM of FM - Huebscher Page 503\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.002844\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-3\n\n00504\n1 APPEARANCES:\nOn behalf of the Plaintiff:\n\n2 NICHOLAS VAN WISER, ESQ.\nByrd & Wiser |\n\n30 Metro Plaza One\n8401 Colesville Road, Suite 501 -\n\n4 Silver Spring, Maryland 20910\n\n(301) 495-3131\n\n5 On behalf of the Defendant Fannie Mae:\n\nGERALD E. WIMBERLY, JR., ESQ.\n\n6 WILLIAM H. LEACH, ESQ.\nMcGlinchey Stafford, PLLC\n\n7 643 Magazine Street\nNew Orleans, Louisiana 70130\n\n8 (504) 586-1200 .\n\n9 JONATHAN L. GRIFFITH, ESQ.\n\n10 Associate General Counsel\n\n11 Fannie Mae\n\n12 3900 Wisconsin Avenue, N.W.\n\n13 Washington, D.C. 20016-2892\n\n14 (504) 586-1200 .\n\n15 On behalf of the General Star Defendants:\n\n16 WILSON CARROLL, ESQ. .\n\n17 Phelps Dunbar, LLP.\n\n18 SkyTel Centre, Suite 500\n\n19 200 South Lamar Street\n\n20 Post Office Box 23066\n\n21 Jackson, Mississippi 39225-3066\n\n22. (504) 586-1200 .\n\n23 ALSO PRESENT:\n\n24 JONATHON PERRY, Videographer\n\n25 BOB JONES\n\nFiled 06/21/2007\n\nMarch 27, 2003 CAM of FM - Huebscher\n\nPage 26 of 29\n\nPage 504\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.002845\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-3 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 27 of 29\n\n00505 a\n1 CONTENTS\n\n2 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR\n\n3 WITNESS PLAINTIFF DEFENDANTS\n\n4 GRACEHUEBSCHER 506,577.57\n\n5 EXHIBITS\n\n6 HUEBSCHER DEPOSITION EXHIBITS MARKED\n\"7 No. 423 - Spreadsheet 519\n\n8 No.424-Email 541\n\n9 No. 425 - Document 550\n\n10\n\n11\n\n12\n\n13\n\n14\n\n15\n\n16\n\n17\n\n18\n\n19\n\n20\n\n21\n\n22\n\n23\n\n24\n\n25\n\nMarch 27, 2003 CAM of FM - Huebscher Page 505\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.002846\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-3 Filed 06/21/2007\n\n1 (Deposition Exhibit No. 423\n2 marked for identification.)\n3 MR. WISER: Did y'all get one?\n4 BY MR. WISER:\n5\n\n6\n\n7\n\n8 Q I don't know yet. We may not be.\n\n9 A Okay. \u2014\n\n10 Q Can you tell me--I'm sorry. Have you had\n11 achance to look at it? _\n\n12 A Well, I generally know what this is.\n\n13. .Q Okay. Can you tell me generally what this\n14 is?\n\n15 A As I mentioned previously when--Fannie Mae\n16 has a lot of different tools by which it can manage\n17 first loss risk, and not only portfolios. It buys\n\n18 from lenders and flow, but aggregation as well.\n\n19 So, what this is is a comparison of the cost of\n\n20 various executions against us because one of the\n21 things that, you know, DUS, is\u2014-because of the fact\n22 that you have seller risk sharing and that skin in\n\n' 23 the game, as I discussed before-- -\n\n24 Q Yes.\n\n25  <A_ --we believe that the performance under\n\nMarch 27, 2003 CAM of FM - Huebscher\n\nPage 28 of 29\n\nPage 519\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.002860 .\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-3 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 29 of 29\n\n00520\n1 DUS warrants. an all-in pricing to the market that's\n\n2 better and lower than aggregation. So, we try to\n3 manage the pricing on those two executions to\n\n4 ensure that that relationship takes place. So,\n-\u00a7 that's why DUS is here.\n\n6 Q Okay. It's kind of the benchmark, would\n7 you say?\n\n8 A I don't know if that's fair to say. I\n\n9 mean, the whole competitive marketplace.\n\n10 MR. LEACH: I'm going to just object to\n11 the document you've marked as an exhibit to the\n12 extent I think she's testifying as to the first\n\n13 page, but it attaches several seemingly separate\n14 pieces of correspondence. I just want the record\n15 to be clear that she's testifying as to the first\n\n16 page. I don't know whether you intend to\n\n17 continue\u2014to include all of the other pages in the\n18 exhibit. That's your decision, but they are,\n\n19 apparently, separate documents.\n\n20 MR. WISER: I understand. I'd like to .\n21 have them included in the exhibit, but I don't\n\n22 intend to ask her any questions about anything\n23 other than the first page at this point.\n\n24 MR. LEACH: Okay, Mr. Wiser.\n\n25 MR. WISER: But your objection is noted.\n\nMarch 27, 2003 CAM of FM - Huebscher _ Page 520\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.002861\n","ocr_status":1,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:48:15-07:00","document_number":"33","attachment_number":2,"pacer_doc_id":"04501888770","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":2,"description":"Exhibit Exhibit A - Declaration of Grace Huebscher and Deposition Excerpts","acms_document_guid":""},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686743/","id":2686743,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/33/3/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.663402-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:09.607731-08:00","sha1":"b08ad51a0d7c599d7ed50e26bbfe5011fbb67015","page_count":54,"file_size":430836,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.3.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.3.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":"Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB   Document 33-4   Filed 06/21/2007   Page 1 of 54\n\n\n\n\n                         EXHIBIT B\n\f      Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB       Document 33-4      Filed 06/21/2007   Page 2 of 54\n\n                              Marialice Williams\n\n                                                                                       Page 1\n               UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\n\n                FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA\n\n\n\n    ------------------------- X\n\n   MARIALICE BATHRUS           )\n\n   WILLIAMS,                   )   Civil Action No.\n\n            Plaintiff,         )   1:05CV01483\n\n      vs.                      )   Judge John Bates\n\n   FEDERAL NATIONAL MORTGAGE)\n\n   ASSOCIATION, et al.,        )\n\n            Defendants.        )\n\n    ------------------------- X\n\n\n\n                 Videotaped Deposition of\n\n                Marialice Bathrus Williams\n\n                 Wednesday, March 28, 2007\n\n                    Washington, D.C.\n\n\n\n    Pages 1 - 131\n\n    Volume 1\n\n    Job No.: 179392\n\n    Reported by:     Deborah Larson Hommer, RPR\n\n\n\n\nEsquire Deposition Services                                   MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                         VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                          af779bd1-e112-4d83-87a0-2544073c0e93\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB      Document 33-4       Filed 06/21/2007          Page 3 of 54\n\n                                  Marialice Williams\n                                          Page 2                                                        Page 4\n 1                                                 1   Fannie Mae\n 2                                                 2       3900 Wisconsin Avenue, N.W.\n 3             Wednesday, March 28, 2007           3       Washington, D.C. 20016\n 4                        10:30 a.m.               4       (202) 752-6167\n 5                                                 5       jonathan_griffith@fanniemae.com\n 6                                                 6   BY: Jonathan Griffith, Esquire\n 7   Videotaped Deposition of MARIALICE BATHRUS 7\n 8   WILLIAMS held at the offices of:              8   Also Present:\n 9                                                 9       Robert Cherouny, Videographer\n10       O'Melveny & Myers LLP                    10\n11       1625 Eye Street, N.W.                    11\n12       Conference Room 10D                      12\n13       Washington, D.C. 20006                   13\n14                                                14\n15   Pursuant to notice, before Deborah Larson    15\n16   Hommer, Registered Professional Reporter and 16\n17   Notary Public in and for the District of     17\n18   Columbia.                                    18\n19                                                19\n20                                                20\n21                                                21\n22                                                22\n                                          Page 3                                                        Page 5\n 1   APPEARANCES:                                  1             INDEX\n 2   On Behalf of Plaintiff MARIALICE WILLIAMS     2\n 3   Law Offices of Harley Jay Daniels             3   EXAMINATION OF WILLIAMS BY                        PAGE\n 4      5511 Second Street, N.W.                   4   Ms. Becker           7\n 5      Washington, D.C. 20011                     5\n 6      (202) 468-7737                             6   WILLIAMS DEPOSITION EXHIBITS:                     PAGE\n 7      harleydaniels@hotmail.com                  7   1 - E-mail and attachment from Jones to\n 8   BY: Harley Jay Daniels, Esquire               8      Noble, et al., dated 5/15/01       33\n 9                                                 9   2 - Unsigned letter from Williams to\n10   On Behalf of the Defendants FEDERAL NATIONAL 10      Huebscher                     75\n11   MORTGAGE ASSOCIATION, et al.                 11   3 - E-mail from Williams to Newman,\n12   O'Melveny & Myers LLP                        12      et al., dated 5/3/01           79\n13      1625 Eye Street, N.W.                     13   4 - Unsigned letter from Jones to\n14      Washington, D.C. 20006-4001               14      Williams dated 8/6/00              79\n15      (202) 383-5300                            15   5 - E-mail and attachments from\n16      ebecker@omm.com                           16      Hartsfield to Grove dated 6/14/02 80\n17      kgrundeman@omm.com                        17   6 - Mutual non-disclosure agreement         87\n18      sgoldfrank@omm.com                        18   7 - Defendants' first set of requests\n19   BY: Evelyn L. Becker, Esquire                19      for production of documents           90\n20      Kyra A. Grundeman, Esquire                20   8 - Deposition of Marialice Williams\n21      Sarah Alexander Goldfrank, Esquire        21      dated 3/17/03                  109\n22                                                22      (Exhibits retained by the reporter.)\n\n                                                                                   2 (Pages 2 to 5)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                          MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                      af779bd1-e112-4d83-87a0-2544073c0e93\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 33-4         Filed 06/21/2007     Page 4 of 54\n\n                                   Marialice Williams\n                                            Page 6                                                    Page 8\n 1            PROCEEDINGS                               1      Q. Good morning, Ms. Williams.\n 2           THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is tape             2      A. Good morning.\n 3    number 1 of the videotaped deposition of          3      Q. My name is Evelyn Becker. I am\n 4    Marialice Williams taken by the Defendant in      4   going to ask you some questions today. Could\n 5    the matter of Williams versus Fannie Mae.         5   you please state your name for the record.\n 6    This case is taking place in the United States    6      A. Marialice Bathrus Williams.\n 7    District Court for the District of Columbia.      7      Q. What is your current address?\n 8    It's case number 1:05CV01483. This deposition     8      A. 1922 First Street, Northwest,\n 9    is being held at the offices of O'Melveny &       9   Washington, D.C., 20001.\n10    Myers, 1625 Eye Street, Northwest, Washington,   10      Q. How long have you lived at that\n11    D.C. Today's date is March 28, 2007, and the     11   address?\n12    time indicated at the lower portion of the       12      A. A little over -- two years and\n13    television screen currently reads 10:30 a.m.     13   three months.\n14           And my name is Robert Cherouny from       14      Q. What was your address immediately\n15    the firm of Esquire Deposition Services. I am    15   prior?\n16    the certified legal video specialist. And the    16      A. 5722 First Street, Northwest,\n17    court reporter is Deborah Hommer, also in        17   Washington, D.C., 20011.\n18    association with Esquire Deposition Services.    18      Q. How long did you live at that\n19    And will the counsel please introduce            19   address?\n20    themselves and indicate which party they         20      A. Since 1980 -- the last time I lived\n21    represent.                                       21   there -- it was a rental property of mine, and\n22           MS. BECKER: My name is Evelyn             22   I moved into it. I think for a couple of --\n                                            Page 7                                                    Page 9\n 1   Becker. I represent Fannie Mae, Grace              1   just a couple of years the last time.\n 2   Huebscher and Richard Lawch.                       2      Q. What was your residence immediately\n 3          MS. GRUNDEMAN: Kyra Grundeman,              3   prior to that?\n 4   representing Fannie Mae, Grace Huebscher and       4      A. I know this is crazy. I'm nervous,\n 5   Richard Lawch.                                     5   so I can't remember the -- oh, 700 New\n 6          MS. GOLDFRANK: Sarah Goldfrank,             6   Hampshire Avenue, Northwest, Washington, D.C.,\n 7   representing Fannie Mae, Grace Huebscher,          7   20037, I believe.\n 8   Richard Lawch.                                     8      Q. How long did you live at that\n 9          MR. GRIFFITH: Jonathan Griffith             9   address?\n10   from Fannie Mae.                                  10      A. Just about six years, I think.\n11          MR. DANIELS: Harley Daniels for            11      Q. You have been deposed before; is\n12   Plaintiff Marialice Bathrus Williams.             12   that correct?\n13          THE VIDEOGRAPHER: And will the             13      A. Yes.\n14   court reporter please swear in the witness.       14      Q. How many times?\n15   Thereupon,                                        15      A. Oh, I don't -- I don't recall. You\n16          MARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS,                16   mean overall, like in your life?\n17   the Witness, called for examination by counsel    17      Q. Yes.\n18   for the Defendants, and, after having been        18      A. Maybe five times, three -- three or\n19   sworn by the notary, was examined and             19   four times, I think. I'm 61. I haven't\n20   testified as follows:                             20   really been in the law much in the last few\n21     EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE DEFENDANTS       21   years.\n22          BY MS. BECKER:                             22      Q. You were deposed in the course of\n                                                                                   3 (Pages 6 to 9)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                            MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                  VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                     af779bd1-e112-4d83-87a0-2544073c0e93\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB         Document 33-4        Filed 06/21/2007     Page 5 of 54\n\n                                    Marialice Williams\n                                             Page 10                                                Page 12\n 1   the CAM Financial litigation; is that correct?     1   General Motors dealer, and it was never\n 2       A. Yes.                                        2   corrected. And the car eventually basically\n 3       Q. Other than the depositions that you         3   blew up.\n 4   testified at in the course of the CAM              4      Q. Did you receive any money as a\n 5   Financial litigation, have you been deposed in     5   result of that litigation?\n 6   any other matters?                                 6      A. Yes, I did. I'm -- it was -- I\n 7       A. Yes.                                        7   think it was whatever was determined to be the\n 8       Q. What were those matters?                    8   value of that automobile, and it was not an\n 9       A. The members of the board of                 9   expensive automobile -- it was 9 or $10,000 or\n10   directors of -- the advisory board of WPFW        10   something like that.\n11   radio station sued the Pacifica Network on an     11      Q. Did a lawyer represent you in that\n12   issue involving governance, and I was deposed     12   case?\n13   in that matter.                                   13      A. Yes.\n14       Q. Have you been deposed in any other         14      Q. Who was the lawyer?\n15   matters?                                          15      A. Harley Daniels.\n16       A. I'm thinking. I -- I just can't            16      Q. Other than the lawsuits that you've\n17   remember if there was any other -- I'm just       17   already testified about, have you been\n18   trying to remember. Oh, there was a -- I          18   involved in any lawsuits as a witness?\n19   believe there was a deposition at Fannie Mae      19      A. No.\n20   in a Fannie Mae case regarding a multi-family     20      Q. Have you been involved in any other\n21   securitization between Fannie Mae and a west      21   lawsuits as a party?\n22   coast savings & loan, and I thought it was        22      A. No.\n                                             Page 11                                                Page 13\n 1   Coast Savings Bank, which I don't think now        1      Q. You're a lawyer; is that correct?\n 2   has the same name. I think it has changed          2      A. Yes.\n 3   names.                                             3      Q. Are you currently licensed to\n 4      Q. Have you given testimony in any              4   practice?\n 5   other depositions?                                 5      A. Yes, I am.\n 6      A. Not that I can recall right now.             6      Q. Where?\n 7      Q. Have you ever given testimony in             7      A. In the District of Columbia.\n 8   court?                                             8      Q. Do you currently have an active\n 9      A. Yes.                                         9   practice?\n10      Q. When was that?                              10      A. No.\n11      A. In New Mexico I had a suit                  11      Q. When is the last time that you had\n12   against -- I believe it was General Motors.       12   an active law practice?\n13   This was a very long time ago. And I had to       13      A. It would be 1980 -- maybe '81 or\n14   testify as to the facts in the case.              14   '82.\n15      Q. Can you give me an estimate of the          15      Q. Were you practicing in the District\n16   year?                                             16   of Columbia at that time?\n17      A. Approximately 19 -- 1987.                   17      A. Yes.\n18      Q. Did you sue General Motors?                 18      Q. What was the nature of your\n19      A. Yes, I did.                                 19   practice?\n20      Q. For what?                                   20      A. Oh, I'm sorry. I was assistant\n21      A. I had an automobile that had a              21   general counsel of the Office of Management\n22   major defect, and I had been taking it to the     22   and Budget. It wasn't private practice. I'm\n                                                                                 4 (Pages 10 to 13)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                            MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                  VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                     af779bd1-e112-4d83-87a0-2544073c0e93\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 33-4      Filed 06/21/2007     Page 6 of 54\n\n                                     Marialice Williams\n                                             Page 14                                               Page 16\n 1   sorry.                                             1   position?\n 2      Q. How long did you serve in that               2       A. No.\n 3   capacity?                                          3       Q. What was your next position?\n 4      A. Only about two years. Maybe less             4       A. My next position was -- when I left\n 5   than that.                                         5   there, I went to -- I worked at HUD, Housing\n 6      Q. Outside of that position, was there          6   and Urban Development. And I worked as a\n 7   any other time that you practiced law              7   senior legislative assistant to Patricia\n 8   actively?                                          8   Roberts Harris who was the Secretary of HUD at\n 9      A. Only with the government when I              9   the time.\n10   graduated from law school and I went to the       10       Q. Did you practice law in that\n11   Department of Justice.                            11   position?\n12      Q. What was your first position at the         12       A. No.\n13   Department of Justice?                            13       Q. What was your next position?\n14      A. I believe it was just -- they               14       A. I went to OMB and I was the\n15   called it just attorney. It was on, I think,      15   assistant director of the civil rights office.\n16   a separate schedule from if you were like a --    16   And then, when David Stockman came in, the\n17   some other type of position.                      17   titles were changed to -- my title was changed\n18      Q. Was that also in the Office of              18   to assistant general counsel. I believe\n19   Management and Budget?                            19   that's the title.\n20      A. No. That was in the civil rights            20       Q. When your title was assistant\n21   division in the employment section.               21   general counsel, were you still in the civil\n22      Q. How long did you practice in the            22   rights division?\n                                             Page 15                                               Page 17\n 1   civil rights division of the employment            1       A. Yes.\n 2   section at the Department of Justice?              2       Q. Were you practicing law in that\n 3      A. Eighteen months.                             3   capacity?\n 4      Q. After that position, did you go to           4       A. No.\n 5   OMB?                                               5       Q. Other than the 18 months that you\n 6      A. No. I went to the Equal Employment           6   were at the civil rights division practicing\n 7   Opportunity Commission as special assistant to     7   in the employment section, is there any other\n 8   the chairman.                                      8   time that you were actively practicing law?\n 9      Q. How long were you in that position?          9       A. Between working at the\n10      A. Just about 18 months there, I               10   administrative office of the U.S. courts and\n11   think.                                            11   before -- no. I'm sorry. I should have\n12      Q. What was your next position in the          12   brought my resume.\n13   government?                                       13          My father was an attorney in the\n14      A. I worked at the administrative              14   District of Columbia, and from time to time I\n15   office of the U.S. courts for the Supreme         15   would practice in his office. When I came\n16   Court.                                            16   back from New Mexico in 1988 before I worked\n17      Q. What did you do there?                      17   at Fannie Mae I worked with my father in his\n18      A. I was -- I performed management             18   office.\n19   studies of the east -- of the eastern district    19       Q. How long --\n20   of Virginia federal court and the Connecticut     20       A. In his law office.\n21   court.                                            21       Q. How long did you work there?\n22      Q. Were you practicing law in that             22       A. Just a few months.\n                                                                                5 (Pages 14 to 17)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                            MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                  VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                    af779bd1-e112-4d83-87a0-2544073c0e93\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 33-4        Filed 06/21/2007      Page 7 of 54\n\n                                   Marialice Williams\n                                          Page 18                                                 Page 20\n 1      Q. Between the few months that you             1       A. No.\n 2   worked in your father's office and the            2       Q. Did you meet with your attorney?\n 3   18 months that you worked in the civil rights     3       A. No, we didn't meet -- well, we had\n 4   division, are those the only times that you       4   one phone conversation.\n 5   actively practiced law?                           5       Q. When was that?\n 6      A. I have in the last five years had           6       A. Yesterday.\n 7   an occasional instance where I've practiced.      7       Q. How long was the conversation?\n 8   For example, I think I may have done a will       8       A. Five minutes.\n 9   for someone, for one person -- two people. I      9       Q. Did you bring any documents with\n10   represented, as a favor to a friend -- the       10   you today?\n11   National Association of University Women had a   11       A. No, I did not.\n12   dispute with their interior designer of their    12       Q. Other than your attorney, did you\n13   new building.                                    13   discuss your deposition with anybody else?\n14          I'm trying to remember if there are       14       A. No.\n15   any other matters. And that's pretty much it.    15       Q. What is Risk Mitigation\n16      Q. Were you paid for those                    16   Strategists, LLC?\n17   representations?                                 17       A. It doesn't exist anymore, but what\n18      A. I was paid by -- yes, I was paid.          18   it was was a company that was formed when I\n19      Q. I got a little bit of ahead of             19   left Fannie Mae to continue to pursue the\n20   myself in some of those questions, but let me    20   business that I had been doing at Fannie Mae\n21   go back and ask if there is any reason that      21   prior to my departure.\n22   you're not able to give full and truthful        22          MS. BECKER: Can you read back her\n                                          Page 19                                                 Page 21\n 1   testimony here today?                             1   answer.\n 2      A. No.                                         2          (The reporter read the record as\n 3      Q. Are you on any medication that              3   requested.)\n 4   would preclude you from giving complete and       4          BY MS. BECKER:\n 5   full testimony today?                             5      Q. When was it formed?\n 6      A. No.                                         6      A. 19 -- I believe in 1988.\n 7      Q. Did you do anything to prepare for          7      Q. You said it no longer exists. When\n 8   your deposition today?                            8   did it stop existing?\n 9      A. Yes.                                        9      A. It still exists, but not as an LLC.\n10      Q. What did you do?                           10      Q. What does it exist as currently?\n11      A. I reviewed a number of the                 11      A. I have a person with whom I have\n12   information -- a number of -- some of the        12   been working over a number of years who, along\n13   information that was provided by O'Melveny &     13   with myself, we still get a show of interest\n14   Myers as a result of a request for documents.    14   from people who want to pursue the product\n15      Q. These were documents produced by           15   that I developed at Fannie Mae.\n16   Fannie Mae?                                      16      Q. What type of entity is it\n17      A. Yes.                                       17   currently?\n18      Q. Did you review all of those                18      A. It's just my own business. It's\n19   documents?                                       19   under sole proprietorship.\n20      A. I reviewed a great deal of it.             20      Q. Who is this other person that you\n21      Q. Did you do anything else to prepare        21   were referring to?\n22   for your deposition?                             22      A. I work with Harvey Hartsfield.\n                                                                               6 (Pages 18 to 21)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                           MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                 VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                   af779bd1-e112-4d83-87a0-2544073c0e93\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 33-4       Filed 06/21/2007     Page 8 of 54\n\n                                   Marialice Williams\n                                           Page 22                                               Page 24\n 1      Q. How is it that it stopped being an         1      A. No, not the LLC.\n 2   LLC?                                             2      Q. Has anyone else been associated\n 3      A. When I moved out of my offices in          3   with RMS since its LLC status lapsed?\n 4   the Watergate office building and moved          4      A. Yes.\n 5   into -- my office into my home at 5722 First     5      Q. Who was that?\n 6   Street, I just don't think I paid the annual     6      A. Tim Webb worked with me as RMS on a\n 7   fee. And then your -- you know, the -- the       7   project at the Department -- D.C. Department\n 8   District of Columbia government regulates        8   of Mental Health, attempting to procure\n 9   that. It just lapsed.                            9   financing for the new St. Elizabeth's\n10      Q. When did you move out of the              10   Hospital.\n11   Watergate?                                      11      Q. When did that occur?\n12      A. I think it was 2001.                      12      A. That was three years ago, I\n13      Q. What month?                               13   believe. Let's see. 2007...\n14      A. I believe -- it was May or June, I        14      Q. During both the time when RMS was\n15   believe, of that year.                          15   an LLC and the time when it was not an LLC,\n16      Q. Do you know when the status of RMS        16   can you identify the clients of RMS?\n17   as an LLC lapsed?                               17      A. RMS worked with Red Mortgage\n18      A. I really don't recall exactly.            18   Capital. It was a DUS lender of Fannie Mae.\n19      Q. Do you have any documentation from        19   They worked with Aries Capital. We worked\n20   the government indicating that its status as    20   with, for a short time, Washington Mortgage.\n21   an LLC lapsed?                                  21   Oh, goodness. We worked with Countrywide. We\n22      A. No.                                       22   worked with First Atlantic Guarantee\n                                           Page 23                                               Page 25\n 1      Q. Are there any documents that could         1   Corporation. We worked with Swiss Re. We\n 2   identify when the status of RMS as an LLC        2   worked with Marsh Mac.\n 3   lapsed?                                          3          We worked with -- we worked with\n 4      A. I don't think so.                          4   Lend Lease Bovis. We worked with -- we worked\n 5      Q. When is the last time that you paid        5   with Pinnacle Mortgage. We worked with the\n 6   the annual fee for the LLC?                      6   Thurgood Marshall Center. We worked with\n 7      A. I don't recall.                            7   Zurich AIG Insurance Companies. We worked\n 8      Q. Was it sometime in 2001?                   8   with quite a few reinsurers. Morgan Stanley,\n 9      A. I don't recall.                            9   Metropolitan Savings. We worked for Eric\n10      Q. Who were the officers of Risk             10   Rosenfield, investment banker.\n11   Mitigation Strategists, LLC?                    11          We worked with -- that's not a\n12      A. Myself and Harvey Hartsfield.             12   complete list, but that's a lot of them. Some\n13      Q. What was your title?                      13   of them were short relationships and didn't --\n14      A. President.                                14   you know, I just, you know, can't recall all\n15      Q. What was Mr. Hartsfield's title?          15   of them, sitting here.\n16      A. Vice president.                           16          We worked with Fannie Mae. I think\n17      Q. Were there any employees --               17   I said that. We worked with CAM Financial. I\n18      A. No.                                       18   forgot to put them in there, I think.\n19      Q. -- of RMS?                                19       Q. Can you recall any other clients of\n20      A. No.                                       20   RMS?\n21      Q. Was there anyone else associated          21       A. We worked with -- oh, goodness.\n22   with RMS?                                       22   Just -- what's his name? Let's see. That's\n                                                                               7 (Pages 22 to 25)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                          MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                  af779bd1-e112-4d83-87a0-2544073c0e93\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 33-4        Filed 06/21/2007     Page 9 of 54\n\n                                   Marialice Williams\n                                           Page 26                                                 Page 28\n 1   about all I can -- I know there were other        1   to insure -- the risk is what they call\n 2   people. I can even see some of them. I just       2   pari passu so that when you're reaching\n 3   am not able to put names to them. If they         3   through the second level of risk, it's shared\n 4   come out later, I can -- I will write them.       4   by Fannie Mae and the lender. And the cost\n 5       Q. What was the nature of the work            5   was going to be much less expensive if Fannie\n 6   that you did with Red Mortgage Capital?           6   Mae would join with the lender and also lay\n 7       A. We were pursuing the possibility of        7   off that same -- its portion of that secondary\n 8   laying off risk associated with pools of          8   risk level.\n 9   mortgages and individual loans that had been      9          BY MS. BECKER:\n10   originated by a number of DUS lenders. And I     10       Q. How long were you in discussions\n11   don't know if you're familiar with how the       11   with Red Mortgage Capital?\n12   structure works on the DUS loans, how the risk   12       A. For about two years, I believe.\n13   is borne between the parties or split between    13       Q. What time frame was that?\n14   the parties. Are you familiar with how that's    14       A. It would be beginning in 1998.\n15   done on that?                                    15       Q. So it would have been 1998 to 2000,\n16       Q. I'm sorry. This is your                   16   approximately?\n17   deposition.                                      17       A. It could have been longer than\n18       A. Well, I was --                            18   that. The -- yes, it could have been longer\n19           MR. DANIELS: We have a question --       19   than that. 2001, perhaps.\n20           THE WITNESS: -- just asking so           20       Q. Do you have any recollection of any\n21   that --                                          21   discussions with Red Mortgage Capital that\n22           MR. DANIELS: Go ahead.                   22   extended beyond 2000 or 2001?\n                                           Page 27                                                 Page 29\n 1          THE WITNESS: -- I could answer             1       A. There could have -- could have been\n 2   your -- I didn't want it not to make sense to     2   communication on my part because I did\n 3   you.                                              3   prepare, from time to time, updates about\n 4          In Fannie Mae DUS transactions,            4   things that were going on in the marketplace\n 5   often there is -- not often, but there is         5   with respect to insurance vis-a-vis the\n 6   always some level of risk associated with the     6   risk -- laying off of risk.\n 7   loan that's either being securitized or being     7          And I would -- and there were also\n 8   purchased. And the way that that risk breaks      8   a lot of issues pertaining to how certain\n 9   out is that the first level of risk belongs to    9   forms of collateral were perceived by\n10   the Red Mortgage or the Lend Lease or whoever    10   regulatory -- regulatory entities. And so I\n11   the DUS lender is, and then there is another     11   would try to keep my people up to date through\n12   level of risk that is shared by Fannie Mae and   12   a newsletter or an e-mail or whatever, and I\n13   by the DUS lender.                               13   often did that. I just can't tell you exactly\n14          And Fannie Mae had, at that time,         14   when the last time is I did that.\n15   over $90 billion worth of DUS product. And I     15       Q. Do you have a recollection of any\n16   had been asked by Red Mortgage and Lend Lease    16   specific communications with Red Mortgage\n17   and others to try to come up with an insurance   17   Capital after 2000 or 2001?\n18   that would, in fact, absorb that -- either the   18       A. No, I don't.\n19   primary or the secondary level of risk for       19       Q. What was the time frame of your\n20   those individuals. And ultimately what we        20   discussions with Lend Lease?\n21   uncovered when we did our research was that      21       A. Let's see. I flew to Dallas to\n22   the insurance companies would have preferred     22   meet with them 2001, I believe.\n                                                                                8 (Pages 26 to 29)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                           MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                 VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                    af779bd1-e112-4d83-87a0-2544073c0e93\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 33-4        Filed 06/21/2007      Page 10 of 54\n\n                                   Marialice Williams\n                                           Page 30                                                 Page 32\n 1       Q. Do you remember when in 2001?              1   negotiation with Sid Gett from Aries Capital\n 2       A. It was in the summer, but I'm -- I         2   as recently as two years ago, I believe. 2004\n 3   believe it was August.                            3   or '5.\n 4       Q. Is that the only communication you         4       Q. Did the nature of the business that\n 5   ever had with Lend Lease?                         5   you were attempting to do with Aries Capital\n 6       A. No. I had daily contact with all           6   relate to Fannie Mae?\n 7   of these people. When you're doing product        7       A. I'm sorry?\n 8   development, you always have to -- it's very,     8       Q. Did the nature of the business that\n 9   you know, by the book. You have -- there are      9   you were attempting to do with Aries Capital\n10   so many issues, so you're constantly dealing     10   relate to Fannie Mae?\n11   with issues regarding their portfolio or their   11       A. Yes.\n12   originating, what's going on in the insurance    12       Q. Explain that.\n13   side, because there is no compatibility          13       A. My expertise is in product\n14   between the insurance industry and the           14   development, and all investment banking firms\n15   mortgage industry on that level.                 15   and mortgage companies are looking for\n16       Q. What was the time frame of your           16   solutions to the issue of risk associated with\n17   daily communications with Lend Lease?            17   their portfolios. And most people -- a lot of\n18       A. Probably through that same time           18   people were trying to find less expensive ways\n19   through until 2001. Maybe some communication     19   to lay off that risk or not have to post,\n20   in 2002.                                         20   quote/unquote, collateral that consisted of a\n21       Q. Do you have a recollection of any         21   portion of their mortgage-backed securities or\n22   specific communications after 2001 with Lend     22   their REMIC securities.\n                                           Page 31                                                 Page 33\n 1   Lease?                                            1          So I was always attempting to find\n 2       A. Not specifically, no. I can't              2   insurance companies that would work with these\n 3   recall a specific communication with them.        3   lenders to come up with products based in\n 4       Q. What was nature of RMS'                    4   large part on what I had developed at Fannie\n 5   relationship with Aries Capital?                  5   Mae.\n 6       A. I had a very close relationship            6       Q. In previous discovery and in some\n 7   with Aries Capital. I was invited on an           7   of the court papers there has been discussion\n 8   annual basis to their annual meeting which        8   of a May 2001 proposal. Do you understand\n 9   they generally held -- since they were from       9   what that term means?\n10   Chicago, they generally held it someplace        10       A. I am just trying to remember -- no.\n11   warm. And we stayed -- we're actually still      11   If you can give me a little -- I could --\n12   in contact with one another.                     12          MR. DANIELS: I didn't hear the\n13       Q. What type of business, if any, did        13   term.\n14   you do with Aries Capital?                       14          MS. BECKER: May 2001 proposal.\n15       A. We tried to do DUS business. We           15          THE WITNESS: I don't know why I'm\n16   tried to do some more generalized                16   blocking on it. I just -- I know that -- I\n17   securitization transactions, but we did not      17   know that it's there. I know that I responded\n18   close any deals at all.                          18   to it. I'm just blanking right now on what it\n19       Q. What was the time frame in which          19   is. So if you could tell me, I could tell you\n20   you were attempting to do DUS business and       20   about it.\n21   other business with Aries Capital?               21          (Deposition Exhibit No. 1 was\n22       A. Let's see. I had lunch in                 22   marked for identification.)\n                                                                               9 (Pages 30 to 33)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                           MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                 VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                    af779bd1-e112-4d83-87a0-2544073c0e93\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB         Document 33-4       Filed 06/21/2007     Page 11 of 54\n\n                                    Marialice Williams\n                                            Page 34                                               Page 36\n 1          BY MS. BECKER:                             1   Mitigation Strategists, LLC; is that correct?\n 2       Q. I am going to hand you what has            2       A. I'm not certain if we were still an\n 3   been marked as Exhibit 1. Do you recognize        3   LLC then or not. I would have to see.\n 4   this document?                                    4       Q. If I could direct --\n 5       A. I see what it is.                          5       A. Unless we put LLC on it -- I mean,\n 6       Q. What is it?                                6   we stopped using it after a while.\n 7       A. It's an e-mail, it appears, from           7       Q. If I could direct your attention to\n 8   Bob Jones at CAM Financial to Steve Noble at      8   the top --\n 9   Zurich and myself and Danny Groves.               9       A. Yes, I see it.\n10       Q. And what is it discussing?                10       Q. -- of the first page. Does that --\n11       A. It discusses a structure for              11       A. Risk Mitigation Strategists, LLC,\n12   providing insurance that I really just           12   yes.\n13   described to you about the mezzanine tranche     13       Q. Does that refresh your recollection\n14   of risk associated with Fannie Mae's DUS         14   as to whether the May 2001 proposal was made\n15   loans.                                           15   by Risk Mitigation Strategists, LLC?\n16       Q. And what's the date of this e-mail?       16       A. Yes.\n17       A. May 15, 2001.                             17       Q. And was the proposal made by Risk\n18       Q. There is an attachment to the             18   Mitigation --\n19   e-mail; is that correct?                         19       A. It was made by Risk Mitigation\n20       A. Yes.                                      20   Strategists, LLC, I believe.\n21       Q. And what is the attachment?               21       Q. Did any of the discussions that you\n22       A. The attachment is a description           22   had with Aries Capital relate to the May 2001\n                                            Page 35                                               Page 37\n 1   written by me, I believe, about how to            1   proposal?\n 2   actually -- it's a description of what Bob        2      A. Yes.\n 3   is -- it's a broader description of what Bob      3      Q. What was the time frame of the\n 4   is describing in the front of the e-mail.         4   discussions that you had with Aries Capital\n 5            MR. DANIELS: I'm sorry. How was          5   that related to the May 2001 proposal?\n 6   that marked for identification?                   6      A. All of those individuals that I\n 7            MS. BECKER: Exhibit 1.                   7   previously stated I was working with at the\n 8            BY MS. BECKER:                           8   exact same time. When I would send a message\n 9       Q. Does this e-mail and the attachment        9   to Lend Lease, it would go to Red Mortgage, it\n10   refresh your recollection as to your May 2001    10   would go to Aries, it would go to the cadre of\n11   proposal to Fannie Mae?                          11   people that were looking for relief.\n12       A. Yes. I now know exactly what              12      Q. And what was the time frame of\n13   you're talking about.                            13   those discussions?\n14       Q. Can you explain for the record so         14      A. From 1998 until the present time,\n15   it's clear what your May 2001 proposal to        15   but not actively -- I mean, I am still now\n16   Fannie Mae was?                                  16   working with not those lenders but other\n17       A. I was attempting to assist DUS            17   lenders to look at those options as well.\n18   lenders and others in their efforts to           18   That's still an ongoing thing that I do. But\n19   eliminate the risk associated with selling or    19   not related to the DUS proposal because that\n20   securitizing multi-family mortgage loans with    20   only affects DUS lenders.\n21   Fannie Mae.                                      21      Q. When is the last time that you had\n22       Q. This proposal was made by Risk            22   communications with Aries Capital relating to\n                                                                             10 (Pages 34 to 37)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                           MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                 VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                   af779bd1-e112-4d83-87a0-2544073c0e93\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 33-4        Filed 06/21/2007     Page 12 of 54\n\n                                   Marialice Williams\n                                           Page 38                                                 Page 40\n 1   the DUS proposal?                                 1   forgot to tell you something earlier. You\n 2       A. I don't recall.                            2   asked me a question and I left out something\n 3       Q. Would it be fair to say any                3   important. When I went to Fannie Mae, I went\n 4   communications that you had with Aries Capital    4   to the general counsel's office, so I was\n 5   relating to the DUS proposal would have been      5   there for just about six months, I think,\n 6   in the same time frame that you were having       6   before I transferred to the multi-family\n 7   communications with Fannie Mae regarding the      7   division.\n 8   DUS proposal?                                     8       Q. And you were practicing law while\n 9       A. Yes and no, because Fannie Mae does        9   you were at Fannie Mae?\n10   not facilitate or work directly with -- was      10       A. I reviewed documents, so I guess\n11   not working -- I was trying to come up with a    11   you could call that practicing law. But there\n12   way to lay off cap -- to lay off risk with       12   was no courtroom or court appearances or\n13   these -- with this group of people -- of         13   anything of that nature.\n14   lenders. When I thought there was a need to      14       Q. Do you recall any communications\n15   involve Fannie Mae further in the discussion,    15   that you had with Fannie Mae relating to Aries\n16   we might contact them or say something to        16   Capital after 2001?\n17   them, but it did not mean that we were not       17       A. I don't recall. I believe there\n18   working on pursuing our end of the -- of the     18   were, but I do not -- I can't tell you the\n19   deal.                                            19   exact date.\n20          In other words, Fannie Mae was not        20       Q. Who were those communications with?\n21   paying me to do product development for them.    21       A. When I talked to Fannie Mae, I\n22   I had to develop the product and then go to      22   generally spoke to either Rhoda Newman or\n                                           Page 39                                                 Page 41\n 1   them.                                             1   Richard Lawch, or I spoke to someone in the\n 2      Q. When is the last discussion that            2   credit policy office or I spoke to someone in\n 3   you recall with Aries Capital relating to the     3   the counsel's office, just depending on what\n 4   DUS proposal --                                   4   the issue was.\n 5      A. I really don't --                           5      Q. Who in the credit policy office did\n 6      Q. -- to Fannie Mae?                           6   you talk to?\n 7      A. I don't remember.                           7      A. I can describe him, but I am\n 8          MR. DANIELS: Can we go off the             8   blanking on his name -- yes, I can remember\n 9   record for a moment?                              9   his name. His name was Jeff Arpin, I believe.\n10          MS. BECKER: Sure.                         10      Q. Who did you talk to in the\n11          THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is             11   counsel's office?\n12   11:25. We're going off the record.               12      A. It was usually Paul van Hook or\n13          (Recess.)                                 13   David Kalinsky or Kathy Miles. Oh, and also\n14          THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is             14   Dan -- I can't recall his last name, but he\n15   11:36. We're back on the record.                 15   was specifically assigned to handle insurance\n16          BY MS. BECKER:                            16   matters.\n17      Q. Ms. Williams, when is the last time        17      Q. Is it fair to say that you don't\n18   that you communicated with Aries Capital --      18   recall any communications with anyone at\n19   I'm sorry. When is the last time that you        19   Fannie Mae regarding Aries Capital after 2001?\n20   communicated with Fannie Mae regarding Aries     20      A. No, that's not fair to say. I\n21   Capital?                                         21   don't recall at this time. I just am not\n22      A. I really don't recall. Oh, I               22   remembering when the last time is I spoke with\n                                                                             11 (Pages 38 to 41)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                           MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                 VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                    af779bd1-e112-4d83-87a0-2544073c0e93\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB       Document 33-4        Filed 06/21/2007     Page 13 of 54\n\n                                  Marialice Williams\n                                          Page 42                                                Page 44\n 1   them.                                            1          I have an appointment Friday, for\n 2      Q. So can you remember any specific           2   example, with someone who wants to look at the\n 3   communications with anyone at Fannie Mae         3   possibility of doing some variation on the\n 4   regarding Aries Capital after 2001?              4   insurance product and possibly use Fannie Mae.\n 5      A. I can't specifically remember them,        5       Q. Who is that appointment with?\n 6   no.                                              6       A. I cannot disclose that at this\n 7      Q. Do you have any documentation that         7   time.\n 8   would show any communications with Fannie Mae    8       Q. Can you tell me what the nature of\n 9   regarding Aries Capital after 2001?              9   your last communications with Fannie Mae\n10      A. I don't think so. I don't -- it           10   regarding Aries Capital would have been?\n11   would have been phone calls, and I didn't       11       A. No, I can't. I can't tell you. It\n12   record phone calls.                             12   would have been something related to\n13      Q. Do you have any recollection of           13   attempting to either do the DUS business --\n14   with whom you might have spoken at Fannie Mae   14   some form of credit enhancement would have\n15   regarding Aries Capital after 2001?             15   been what the discussion would have been\n16      A. I think I answered that, which            16   about.\n17   would have been all of those people I           17       Q. What business did you do with\n18   described.                                      18   Washington Mortgage?\n19      Q. Are you saying that you believe you       19       A. Washington Mortgage called me\n20   spoke to all of those people?                   20   almost immediately after I left Fannie Mae to\n21      A. I may have spoken to them. I just         21   pursue the possibility of laying off their DUS\n22   cannot remember the day, the time or the hour   22   risk.\n                                          Page 43                                                Page 45\n 1   or anything like that. But we were ongoing       1      Q. That would have been in 1998?\n 2   with our attempting to do our product            2      A. That's correct.\n 3   development, and I believe I spoke with some     3      Q. How long were you in communication\n 4   of those people or one of those people or one    4   with Washington Mortgage?\n 5   or more of those people after 2001.              5      A. I don't recall. Months. Maybe a\n 6       Q. And what is your recollection based       6   year. Not long. Not very long.\n 7   on?                                              7      Q. Did you ever do any business deals\n 8       A. My own head.                              8   with Washington Mortgage?\n 9       Q. Is there anything specific that           9      A. No, I didn't, because Richard Lawch\n10   makes you believe that you had a conversation   10   called Shekar Narassiman and told him I was\n11   with anyone at Fannie Mae regarding Aries       11   stupid or something like that. It was a\n12   Capital after 2001?                             12   very -- it was not a nice thing. And I\n13       A. I never stopped pursuing the desire      13   stopped working with them. They were very\n14   to do business with Fannie Mae. I never         14   thick.\n15   stopped the desire to do additional and         15      Q. The time frame in which Mr. Lawch\n16   further development of a concept which I was    16   would have made this statement would have been\n17   solely responsible for and thought I would be   17   1998; is that correct?\n18   making my living from pursuing with promises    18      A. No. I understand he repeated it\n19   from people from Fannie Mae. So I was always    19   more or less frequently from that point\n20   out there looking to do business that would     20   forward, probably through until this day.\n21   specifically take me back to Fannie Mae         21      Q. What's the basis for your belief\n22   portfolios and risk.                            22   that Mr. Lawch referred to you in that way?\n                                                                            12 (Pages 42 to 45)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                          MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                  af779bd1-e112-4d83-87a0-2544073c0e93\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 33-4        Filed 06/21/2007      Page 14 of 54\n\n                                   Marialice Williams\n                                           Page 46                                                 Page 48\n 1      A. What is the basis for it? I                 1   and said, please do not disclose to Fannie Mae\n 2   overheard a conversation between Alan             2   that we are having these discussions. I asked\n 3   Greenwald and Shekar Narassiman in which the      3   you not to do that.\n 4   question of my intelligence was raised, and       4          And I immediately called that\n 5   that was prior to my departure from Fannie        5   person and said, I sincerely apologize. I did\n 6   Mae.                                              6   not mean to -- and I didn't mean to -- why\n 7      Q. Other than the conversation that            7   would I sabotage myself? I did not mean to\n 8   you overheard before 1998, do you have any        8   say anything -- did not mean to put the cc on\n 9   other basis for your belief that Mr. Lawch        9   there; it was an accident. And if you would\n10   made comments about you?                         10   like for me to call Fannie Mae and explain to\n11      A. Yes. When I was dealing with Red           11   them, I will do that.\n12   Mortgage Capital, they indicated that they had   12       Q. What was the time frame of that\n13   had conversations with Mr. Lawch and they were   13   e-mail?\n14   afraid to let him know the extent to which       14       A. I would think sometime in 1999 or\n15   they were involved in doing some things          15   2000, perhaps 2001.\n16   because -- and I don't know for what reason,     16       Q. Did anyone at Red Mortgage Capital\n17   but I think there was some concern that they     17   tell you that Mr. Lawch had made disparaging\n18   had that had to do with their relationship to    18   comments about you?\n19   Richard Lawch.                                   19       A. Yes. That person I was just\n20      Q. Who did you talk to at Red Mortgage        20   referring to. And I think that's -- I don't\n21   Capital about the conversation between them      21   know if he spoke directly to David or not.\n22   and Mr. Lawch?                                   22       Q. What disparaging comments were you\n                                           Page 47                                                 Page 49\n 1       A. I can't remember his name right            1   told that Mr. Lawch made about you?\n 2   now. I could probably find it, but it was         2       A. Just that I may or may not be able\n 3   through David -- David -- the person in           3   to do what it is I was attempting to do with\n 4   charge. I'm just blanking on his last name.       4   them and -- more innuendo than specifically --\n 5   A very tall gentleman who is a vegetarian.        5   it wasn't as direct as what he said to Shekar.\n 6   And he had someone who he had assigned to me      6   It was not of that nature. But it was clear\n 7   to work on this project. And I had an             7   that he was discouraging them from doing\n 8   independent relationship, meaning I had worked    8   business with me.\n 9   directly with this person without Mr. Lawch's     9       Q. And when did you learn that\n10   knowledge. And he assigned this other person     10   Mr. Lawch was discouraging Red Mortgage\n11   to work with me on this -- in pursuing this      11   Capital from doing business with you?\n12   type of situation.                               12       A. Sometime between 1998 and 2001.\n13       Q. When did you have this conversation       13       Q. What was the nature of the business\n14   with David?                                      14   you did with Countrywide?\n15       A. I didn't have it with David. I had        15       A. Hal Potter, who had been a\n16   it with the person he assigned to me, and it     16   multi-family staff person -- actually, he was\n17   was in an e-mail. And he said, I told you not    17   the director of multi-family, I believe, in\n18   to -- I know what happened: I cc'd -- I did      18   the California region -- had gone to\n19   not mean to cc Fannie Mae on an e-mail in        19   Countrywide to establish a multi-family\n20   responding to more than one customer. And        20   program for them. You probably know that most\n21   when I did -- and it was on there, and it was    21   of their business is single-family.\n22   an accident. And this person e-mailed me back    22          And because the market --\n                                                                              13 (Pages 46 to 49)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                           MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                 VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                    af779bd1-e112-4d83-87a0-2544073c0e93\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB         Document 33-4       Filed 06/21/2007      Page 15 of 54\n\n                                    Marialice Williams\n                                            Page 50                                                Page 52\n 1   everything is driven by the market and the        1   when you flew to California?\n 2   spreads were so narrow, Countrywide was           2       A. No.\n 3   looking for a cost-effective way to provide       3       Q. Can you identify the time frame any\n 4   for credit enhancement and do its own             4   more precisely than 1998 to 2001?\n 5   securitization so that it didn't have to rely     5       A. No. I can't. I just can't. I was\n 6   on Fannie Mae because there was so little         6   working every day, 10 hours, 11 hours,\n 7   profit and they did not want to sell to a         7   12 hours a day, trying to do this product\n 8   conduit as well. So they were attempting to       8   development. I was working with different\n 9   form their own program.                           9   types of assets, different insurance\n10          And I flew to California to meet          10   companies, different insurance brokers,\n11   with Hal Potter to discuss it. And sometime      11   different insurance concepts, reinsurers,\n12   thereafter Countrywide abandoned their           12   people who were holding automobile loans,\n13   decision to do multi-family. I don't know if     13   people who were holding credit card loans,\n14   they do it now, but they abandoned it. I         14   because securitization had become that much\n15   believe Hal went to another company.             15   more pervasive in the marketplace.\n16      Q. Did you ever do a deal involving           16          So that is why it is so difficult\n17   Countrywide?                                     17   to say on March 1, 1998, I did one thing or\n18      A. No.                                        18   another because my days were consumed by that.\n19      Q. When did you fly to California?            19          I also relied heavily, mistakenly\n20      A. Sometime between 1998 and 2001. I          20   perhaps, on my computer as the source of my\n21   believe it was -- sometime between 1998 and      21   calendar. I've had two computer crashes of\n22   2001. I flew to California several times.        22   major proportion from which I could not\n                                            Page 51                                                Page 53\n 1      Q. And when did they abandon --                1   retrieve any information since I left Fannie\n 2      A. Oh, I don't know that. I don't              2   Mae. And so it's very, very difficult for me\n 3   know that specifically.                           3   to go back and recapture specific dates\n 4      Q. You said sometime after you flew to         4   associated with specific individuals. I have\n 5   California they abandoned their decision to do    5   some general idea. I know absolutely what I\n 6   multi-family; is that correct?                    6   did, and I did it daily, as did\n 7      A. Yes. After I met with Hal, several          7   Mr. Hartsfield, but...\n 8   months, I believe, went -- and I'm not exactly    8       Q. What type of business did you do\n 9   certain when they made the decision that they     9   with First Atlantic?\n10   were not going to move forward. I don't know     10       A. First Atlantic is a face amount\n11   that.                                            11   certificate company. There are only three in\n12      Q. When did you become aware that they        12   the country. And they have a very unique\n13   made that decision?                              13   structure which enables them to issue\n14      A. Sometime after I went to                   14   certificates backed by certain types of assets\n15   California. I cannot tell you the specific       15   but unique to the certificate structure. Some\n16   date.                                            16   of the limitations that apply to securities\n17      Q. Would it have been within a couple         17   and to REMICs as well did not apply to the\n18   of months of your traveling to California?       18   certificates. And it looked as if this was\n19      A. No, I believe it was maybe as much         19   going to be -- and I still believe it is -- a\n20   as a year later. I'm not certain, but it         20   major way to be able to do the types of\n21   could have been up to a year later.              21   business with smaller companies so they don't\n22      Q. Do you have any records indicating         22   get ripped off by conduits and to do business\n                                                                              14 (Pages 50 to 53)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                            MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                  VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                    af779bd1-e112-4d83-87a0-2544073c0e93\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB         Document 33-4       Filed 06/21/2007     Page 16 of 54\n\n                                    Marialice Williams\n                                            Page 54                                               Page 56\n 1   with people who have -- who lend in areas that    1   probably recall this -- when suddenly\n 2   are not popular, to do affordable mortgages       2   insurance companies, banks, lenders and\n 3   and that kind of thing, because you can remove    3   everyone began to work together to seek new\n 4   the asset from the pool and replace it with       4   ways to provide credit enhancement that did\n 5   something else, which you cannot do in a          5   not conflict or provide issues with respect to\n 6   mortgage-backed security, and only on a           6   the various aspects of the accounting\n 7   limited basis in a REMIC, and it has to be        7   regulations which had to be adhered to because\n 8   predetermined when you're going to make those     8   of the nature of the securities.\n 9   decisions.                                        9          And when those rules would change,\n10      Q. Did you close any transactions             10   it would change the way you could do business.\n11   involving First Atlantic?                        11   So you had to constantly go back and look at\n12      A. No.                                        12   new ways to modify, you know, your credit\n13      Q. What was the time frame in which           13   enhancement vehicle.\n14   you worked with First Atlantic?                  14       Q. Did the communications you had with\n15      A. I still work with them. I'm                15   Swiss Re relate in any way to RMS' May 2001\n16   actually on their board.                         16   proposal?\n17      Q. Did you ever have any                      17       A. Yes, absolutely.\n18   communications with Fannie Mae about First       18       Q. What was the time frame of those\n19   Atlantic?                                        19   communications?\n20      A. Yes.                                       20       A. Actually, I had a continuing\n21      Q. When was that?                             21   dialogue with quite a few insurance companies\n22      A. I believe it was between 2001,             22   from 1998 all the way through to the current\n                                            Page 55                                               Page 57\n 1   2002.                                             1   time. I am meeting with an insurance company\n 2      Q. What was the nature of those                2   also this week.\n 3   communications?                                   3      Q. Which insurance company?\n 4      A. To inform them that I had yet again         4      A. I can't tell you that. I have a\n 5   discovered a product that I thought could be      5   confidentiality agreement.\n 6   helpful to Fannie Mae in fulfilling their         6      Q. When is the last time that you\n 7   mission to do affordable housing. I spoke         7   communicated to Fannie Mae about Swiss Re?\n 8   with Rob Levin. I spoke with Rhoda Newman,        8      A. Oh, goodness. Prior to 9/11. I do\n 9   Grace Huebscher about First Atlantic and the      9   know that because that part of Swiss Re, I\n10   concept.                                         10   believe, was shut down after 9/11.\n11      Q. Did these discussions relate to            11      Q. And by 9/11, you mean September 11,\n12   RMS' May 2001 proposal?                          12   2001?\n13      A. No, not at all. It could have been         13      A. Yes.\n14   adapted, but no, this was a new concept.         14      Q. What was the nature of the business\n15      Q. What was the nature of the business        15   that you did with Marsh Mac?\n16   that you did with Swiss Re?                      16      A. I worked with Marsh Mac for several\n17      A. To attempt to -- they had opened a         17   years trying to find an appropriate insurance\n18   section of their company called something -- I   18   company to do the Fannie Mae business.\n19   just can't remember the exact name, but it was   19      Q. What were those years that you\n20   something associated with risk, almost like a    20   worked with Marsh Mac?\n21   risk mitigation unit. And it was the time        21      A. From 1998 through, I believe, 2002.\n22   when the insurance companies -- I am sure you    22      Q. When in 2002?\n                                                                             15 (Pages 54 to 57)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                           MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                 VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                   af779bd1-e112-4d83-87a0-2544073c0e93\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 33-4        Filed 06/21/2007     Page 17 of 54\n\n                                   Marialice Williams\n                                           Page 58                                                 Page 60\n 1      A. Actually, I have to change my               1   concept would become clear.\n 2   answer. I still talk to Marsh Mac. But            2          And it was always -- there was\n 3   you're saying about the May 1 -- May 2001         3   always a regulatory issue involving the nature\n 4   proposal?                                         4   of being the owner of the captive insurance\n 5      Q. Yes.                                        5   company and the validity of that captive\n 6      A. I think that was probably around            6   insurance company. And that was clarified --\n 7   the same time. September 11, 2001, created,       7   and I wrote a newsletter about that decision\n 8   as you know, a crisis in the insurance            8   once that decision was made. It was several\n 9   industry. And much negotiation and discussion     9   years after I left Fannie Mae. So that\n10   with companies for that specific type of         10   concept, which had been tentative, then became\n11   business was limited or stopped entirely after   11   a true possibility.\n12   9/11.                                            12       Q. Did you ever have any\n13      Q. And when you say that type of              13   communications with Pinnacle Mortgage about\n14   business, what do you mean?                      14   the May 2001 proposal?\n15      A. You asked me about the May 2000            15       A. Oh, no. They were not a DUS\n16   proposal, yes.                                   16   lender, yes.\n17      Q. And just to clarify for the record,        17       Q. What is the nature of the business\n18   you mean the May 2001 proposal?                  18   that you did with the Thurgood Marshall\n19      A. Proposal, yes.                             19   Center?\n20      Q. What is the name of the business           20       A. I was their point person for the\n21   that you did with Pinnacle Mortgage?             21   coordination for their bond issuance. They\n22      A. Pinnacle Mortgage was looking for a        22   got an industrial revenue bond issued by the\n                                           Page 59                                                 Page 61\n 1   way to come to Fannie Mae with its own credit     1   District of Columbia to complete financing for\n 2   enhancement rather than relying on Fannie Mae     2   their facility, which is the first\n 3   because of the cost. And so I went to Florida     3   African-American YMCA built in this country.\n 4   to meet with Pinnacle about the possibility of    4      Q. Did that work have anything to do\n 5   utilizing a captive insurance vehicle, renting    5   with Fannie Mae?\n 6   a captive cell, and providing their own credit    6      A. No.\n 7   enhancement so that they could come to Fannie     7      Q. What's the nature of the business\n 8   Mae with a full package rather than coming        8   that RMS did with Zurich?\n 9   just with their loans and being required to       9      A. Did with?\n10   rely on Fannie Mae and paying the fee.           10      Q. Zurich.\n11       Q. When did you go to Florida?               11      A. The same thing. It had to do with\n12       A. I went with Tim Webb, and it was --       12   the May 2001 proposal and also with respect to\n13   I believe it was in 2002.                        13   reinsurance for a potential captive insurance\n14       Q. Did the meeting that you had in           14   execution.\n15   Florida with Pinnacle Mortgage relate to the     15      Q. Who at Zurich did you deal with?\n16   2001 May proposal?                               16      A. I do not recall the names off the\n17       A. Oh, no, not at all. It related to         17   top of my head.\n18   a captive insurance concept which I had          18      Q. What is the time frame in which you\n19   initiated with Fannie Mae prior to my            19   were in communications with Zurich about the\n20   departure. And I actually had people who were    20   May 2001 proposal?\n21   very knowledgeable about captives speak          21      A. We were in contact with most of\n22   directly to Fannie Mae staff so that the         22   these insurers and reinsurers throughout the\n                                                                             16 (Pages 58 to 61)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                           MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                 VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                    af779bd1-e112-4d83-87a0-2544073c0e93\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 33-4       Filed 06/21/2007     Page 18 of 54\n\n                                     Marialice Williams\n                                              Page 62                                                Page 64\n 1   entire period of 1998 through 2001, 2002.           1   to the May 2001 proposal?\n 2       Q. Do you remember when the last                2       A. You said the date? The date?\n 3   contact that you had with Zurich related to         3   Sometime after May 2001. I know that.\n 4   the May 2001 proposal was?                          4       Q. Can you be any more specific?\n 5       A. I don't recall. We're calling this           5       A. No, I can't.\n 6   the May 2001 proposal -- I think it's because       6       Q. Did you remain in communications\n 7   it's the first time someone saw it in writing,      7   with AIG for several months after May 2001?\n 8   but it started before I left Fannie Mae, so it      8       A. I am still in contact with them.\n 9   wasn't new in May 2001.                             9       Q. Are you still in contact with them\n10       Q. When is the last communication you          10   regarding the May 2001 proposal?\n11   had with Fannie Mae regarding Zurich?              11       A. No. That's because I haven't had\n12       A. It was sometime after May 15, 2001.         12   an opportunity to raise it with them, but I\n13       Q. Can you be any more specific?               13   intend to try to raise it with them again.\n14       A. No, because, as I said, you're              14       Q. When is the last time that you\n15   constantly back and forth. Zurich has a            15   recall having a discussion with AIG regarding\n16   question, then someone in their shop has a --      16   the May 2001 proposal?\n17   it's just -- it's -- product development in        17       A. Oh, about the May 2001 proposal? I\n18   the securitization field is a very lengthy         18   just cannot remember. It would be probably\n19   process and -- just takes a long time and a        19   December 2002 to -- I just don't know. I\n20   lot of detail.                                     20   mean, I can't be absolutely certain when that\n21       Q. Did you close any deals with                21   could have been.\n22   Zurich?                                            22       Q. What makes you think it might have\n                                              Page 63                                                Page 65\n 1       A. No.                                          1   been December 2002?\n 2       Q. What was the nature of the business          2      A. I'm just thinking about a trip that\n 3   that you did with AIG?                              3   I made to New York, and I know that it was in\n 4       A. AIG was the insurer that was used            4   December of 2002, and I believe I spoke to --\n 5   in the first multi-family credit risk               5   I know I spoke to AIG, but I don't know if I\n 6   insurance transaction and they were brought to      6   spoke to -- about the 9 -- about the May\n 7   Fannie Mae by Bob Jones and Danny Groves. And       7   proposal. I just don't recall.\n 8   once I left Fannie Mae, we resurrected a            8      Q. Who at AIG did you talk to in\n 9   relationship there to look at these other ways      9   December 2002?\n10   of using their insurance, and I am in contact      10      A. I don't recall. But I may -- I\n11   with them even now.                                11   just remembered something else from earlier.\n12       Q. Have you closed any deals with              12   So if that pops back in, I will write it down\n13   AIG --                                             13   definitely. And I believe he has a Hispanic\n14       A. No.                                         14   name, and I will try to remember it.\n15       Q. -- since you left Fannie Mae?               15      Q. When is the last time that you\n16       A. No.                                         16   discussed anything relating to AIG with Fannie\n17       Q. Did the communications that you had         17   Mae?\n18   with AIG since you left Fannie Mae relate to       18      A. With Fannie Mae, I really don't\n19   the May 2001 proposal?                             19   remember. I really don't. I'm -- I don't\n20       A. Yes.                                        20   recall discussing anything about AIG. You\n21       Q. What was the time frame of the              21   don't do that. You don't go to Fannie Mae and\n22   communications that you had with AIG relating      22   discuss what you're discussing with an\n                                                                               17 (Pages 62 to 65)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                             MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                   VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                      af779bd1-e112-4d83-87a0-2544073c0e93\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 33-4        Filed 06/21/2007     Page 19 of 54\n\n                                  Marialice Williams\n                                          Page 66                                                 Page 68\n 1   insurance company unless you've got a deal        1   deal? It's -- you understand. They don't\n 2   that's hopping. You just don't do it.             2   realize their mortgages became a commodity;\n 3       Q. So would it be fair to say that you        3   they were no longer mortgages.\n 4   never had a deal that you considered to be far    4       Q. What is the nature of the business\n 5   enough along to make it appropriate for you to    5   that RMS did with Morgan Stanley?\n 6   discuss?                                          6       A. Morgan Stanley was very interested\n 7       A. Well, Fannie Mae would never               7   in looking at as many options as possible for\n 8   consent to its lenders -- or authorize them to    8   credit enhancement. It's always about credit\n 9   utilize the insurance for the May 2001            9   enhancement and laying off risk. So Liz\n10   proposal. So it never -- there was never         10   Haberkorn Cowherd -- what a name -- and I used\n11   any -- I mean, you can see on here there is no   11   to meet periodically in New York and talk and\n12   one from Fannie Mae designated on this May 15,   12   e-mail and so forth about potential new\n13   2001, message to Steve Noble at Zurich. You      13   transactions with -- I had done a number of\n14   just don't -- you don't do it that way.          14   transactions with Morgan Stanley when I was --\n15          And Fannie Mae has to decide how          15   in fact, Morgan Stanley was the one that\n16   they want to use the product. So you may         16   helped me to create the first -- what is known\n17   have -- for example, I created the               17   in the marketplace as ACES. I named it ACES,\n18   multi-family credit risk insurance               18   the alternative credit enhancement structure.\n19   specifically to assist affordable lenders        19       Q. Did any of the discussions that you\n20   because it works with them. When I left,         20   had with Morgan Stanley relate to the May 2001\n21   Fannie Mae did not pursue that in that venue.    21   proposal?\n22   They used it for their priority lenders in       22       A. No.\n                                          Page 67                                                 Page 69\n 1   their aggregation program and other places.       1      Q. What was the nature of the\n 2      Q. So would it be fair to say that             2   communications or business that you did with\n 3   after you left Fannie Mae you had no              3   Metropolitan Savings?\n 4   communications with Fannie Mae about AIG?         4      A. For quite some time after --\n 5      A. No, that's not true. We did have            5   Metropolitan Savings is the institution for\n 6   some, but I think it was limited to a large       6   which -- for which I was essentially -- no,\n 7   extent by the disagreement I'm sure you're        7   that's not true. Let me start over.\n 8   aware of between AIG and Fannie Mae where         8          Metropolitan Savings was the first\n 9   Fannie Mae refused to provide certain             9   mortgage holder that utilized the multi-family\n10   information and documentation which I knew       10   credit risk insurance. And because I had met\n11   existed in a box in Tim Howard's office under    11   so many times with them, I continued my\n12   somebody's desk. And ultimately it was           12   relationship with them far beyond my tenure at\n13   compiled and put together, and some of it was    13   Fannie Mae because they had not only\n14   disclosed.                                       14   additional business they wanted to do under\n15          But there was a lot of conflict           15   the MCRI structure, they also had -- it was\n16   between AIG and Fannie Mae over the concept of   16   kicking around at Fannie Mae at the time, but\n17   multi-family credit risk insurance. Because      17   Larry Small didn't understand how Freddie Mac\n18   insurers don't understand that real estate may   18   had been able to securitize some commercial\n19   be thriving, but the market for a                19   loans along with some residential loans in a\n20   mortgage-backed security may not be.             20   pool of securities. The REMIC was done\n21          So, duh, why is this property not         21   outside of Freddie Mac. It was not issued off\n22   defaulting but I'm not making more on this       22   the shelf or anything like that. It was\n                                                                             18 (Pages 66 to 69)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                           MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                 VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                   af779bd1-e112-4d83-87a0-2544073c0e93\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB         Document 33-4        Filed 06/21/2007      Page 20 of 54\n\n                                    Marialice Williams\n                                            Page 70                                                 Page 72\n 1   issued by one of the major -- I think it was      1           MR. DANIELS: Excuse me. Are you\n 2   Morgan Stanley.                                   2    about to go in a different line? Because this\n 3          So when I left Fannie Mae, I               3    may be a good place for a lunch break.\n 4   believe Eric Rosenfield did close a deal with     4           MS. BECKER: Okay. Let's go off\n 5   Metropolitan Savings involving some               5    the record.\n 6   commercial, but they had a lot more because       6           THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is\n 7   they do the very small multi-family deals,        7    12:26. We're off the record.\n 8   between 5 and 50 units in the properties,         8           (Recess.)\n 9   which is not standard in the multi-family         9\n10   business.                                        10\n11          And so it's a little more                 11\n12   difficult -- it's kind of a hybrid mortgage,     12\n13   and so I was working with them on different      13\n14   ways to securitize their portfolio.              14\n15      Q. Did the work you did with Morgan --        15\n16   I'm sorry -- with Metropolitan Savings relate    16\n17   in any way to the May 2001 proposal?             17\n18      A. No. They were not a DUS lender.            18\n19   Or they weren't then. I don't know if they       19\n20   are or are not now.                              20\n21      Q. Did the work that you did with Eric        21\n22   Rosenfield relate in any way to the May 2001     22\n                                            Page 71                                                 Page 73\n 1   proposal?                                         1       AFTERNOON SESSION\n 2      A. Eric Rosenfield was the investment          2                         (1:34 p.m.)\n 3   banker whom Bob Jones and I used to test every    3          THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is\n 4   single theory that we had about potential new     4   1:34. We're back on the record.\n 5   structures. So Eric was very familiar with        5   Whereupon,\n 6   this May 2001 proposal as well as everything      6         MARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS,\n 7   else we were doing.                               7   was recalled as a witness and, having been\n 8      Q. Did you close any deals with Eric           8   previously duly sworn, was examined and\n 9   Rosenfield?                                       9   testified further as follows:\n10      A. No. He closed deals I worked on,           10     EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE DEFENDANTS\n11   but he did not pay me.                           11          BY MS. BECKER:\n12      Q. Would it be fair to say that               12      Q. Good afternoon.\n13   Mr. Rosenfield was acting in more of a           13      A. Good afternoon.\n14   consulting capacity relating to the May 2001     14      Q. Before we broke for lunch, we were\n15   proposal?                                        15   talking about the relationship between CAM and\n16      A. No. He was just a business                 16   Risk Mitigation Strategists, LLC. Has there\n17   associate, and we just ran things by him.        17   ever been a formal relationship between those\n18      Q. Has there ever been any                    18   two entities?\n19   relationship between Risk Mitigation             19      A. Before -- before I left Fannie Mae,\n20   Strategists, LLC, and CAM Financial?             20   I was offered a job by CAM Financial. That is\n21      A. No. No relationship in the formal          21   the reason I left Fannie Mae, to work with CAM\n22   sense. Excuse me. I change that.                 22   Financial and Fannie Mae. We had an\n\n                                                                               19 (Pages 70 to 73)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                             MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                   VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                     af779bd1-e112-4d83-87a0-2544073c0e93\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 33-4        Filed 06/21/2007     Page 21 of 54\n\n                                   Marialice Williams\n                                           Page 74                                                Page 76\n 1   understanding, we thought, with Lou Hoyes, who    1   ownership, and we did not have an interest in\n 2   was the then senior vice president for            2   each other's business.\n 3   multi-family, that we would just continue to      3       Q. Does this document refresh your\n 4   do business. And for one reason or another,       4   recollection as to whether the joint broker\n 5   it turned out that the best relationship -- I     5   agreement was between Risk Mitigation\n 6   then became an insurance broker myself, and       6   Strategists and CAM Financial Services?\n 7   signed a joint broker agreement with CAM. And     7       A. I'm certain -- listen to me. I am\n 8   then Fannie Mae asked me to write them a          8   almost certain that it was just between myself\n 9   letter that said I was not doing business with    9   because RMS can't be -- couldn't be a partner\n10   CAM Financial -- in order to get business from   10   of anyone in a brokerage capacity because that\n11   them, I would not be able to do business with    11   wasn't what Risk Mitigation Strategists was.\n12   CAM Financial.                                   12   I was just a licensed broker. But my\n13           And so I wrote a letter to Fannie        13   company -- I couldn't have done that legally,\n14   Mae saying that -- which was true, I did not     14   I don't think. I don't think.\n15   have -- I was not doing business with them. I    15       Q. I would like to direct your\n16   was in a joint venture agreement in the event    16   attention to the third paragraph of the letter\n17   that we did this insurance stuff together.       17   in the second sentence beginning, \"However.\"\n18   But that was the extent, up to that point, of    18   It states, \"However, CAM and RMS have a broker\n19   our relationship, although we still continued    19   agreement that is common in the insurance\n20   to talk and dialogue and meet jointly with       20   business.\"\n21   people, and I still had the expertise, and       21           Was that an accurate statement?\n22   Bob's company had the cash to move forward       22       A. It's probably a misstatement of --\n                                           Page 75                                                Page 77\n 1   with the marketing.                               1   I do have a copy of the agreement. I can\n 2       Q. Was there a joint broker agreement,        2   check it and I can let you know. I just am\n 3   then, between CAM Financial and Risk              3   not looking at it right now. It does say that\n 4   Mitigation Strategists, LLC?                      4   there, but I don't think -- I don't think the\n 5       A. No, it was just between myself --          5   agreement reads between -- I think it was\n 6   oops. I have to look at it, but I think it's      6   between CAM and Marialice Williams, I believe.\n 7   just between me and CAM. I don't think            7   But I think you all have a copy of it.\n 8   it's -- I'm just not remembering completely.      8      Q. So you believe that the letter you\n 9   And I think I gave it -- in the documents that    9   wrote to Ms. Huebscher mischaracterizes the\n10   I provided, I believe I gave a copy of it.       10   nature of the broker agreement?\n11            (Deposition Exhibit No. 2 was           11      A. No. I think that it does not say\n12   marked for identification.)                      12   RMS, LLC, first of all, and it doesn't say\n13            BY MS. BECKER:                          13   CAM, LLC, or whatever they are. So I would\n14       Q. I am handing you Exhibit 2. Can           14   say it doesn't misrepresent. I don't think\n15   you identify that document?                      15   anybody had any question about it at the time,\n16       A. Yes. This is the letter that I            16   and I'm -- I'm just -- I would have to look at\n17   wrote to Grace Huebscher after I met with her    17   the agreement, and I could do that, but I'm\n18   and I was told that Rhoda Newman was going to    18   not going -- no, I don't think I\n19   be assigned to me. I think that's what this      19   mischaracterized anything.\n20   was about. And describing some of the things     20      Q. Let me direct your attention to the\n21   that we did, but also saying that CAM and RMS    21   last sentence of the first paragraph. It\n22   do not have any connection with respect to       22   says, \"I welcome the opportunity to clearly\n                                                                            20 (Pages 74 to 77)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                           MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                 VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                   af779bd1-e112-4d83-87a0-2544073c0e93\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB       Document 33-4         Filed 06/21/2007         Page 22 of 54\n\n                                  Marialice Williams\n                                          Page 78                                                     Page 80\n 1   define the relationship between my company,       1       A. This is dated August 6, 2000, and\n 2   Risk Mitigation Strategists, LLC (RMS) and CAM    2   it is an unsigned and never was signed letter\n 3   Financial Services, Inc.\"                         3   from Bob Jones to Marialice Williams about\n 4          Do you see that?                           4   sharing commissions.\n 5       A. So are you asking me -- I mean,            5       Q. And who was this letter set up to\n 6   what's the question? Did I mischaracterize        6   be between?\n 7   it? I don't think so. I think it was              7       A. Risk Mitigation Strategists and CAM\n 8   referring to myself as RMS, you know -- I         8   Financial.\n 9   don't know. I don't know what happened in the     9       Q. Why was this letter never signed?\n10   letter or why I wrote it that way. I have no     10       A. Because -- probably because I\n11   idea, because I -- I will show you the joint     11   didn't want to sign it as Risk Mitigation\n12   venture agreement, and I don't believe it's      12   Strategists and probably because there was so\n13   between CAM and RMS. I think it's between CAM    13   much going on at the time that was\n14   and Marialice Williams as a broker because I'm   14   conflicting, I didn't know who was telling me\n15   the only one who could -- RMS was not a          15   the truth about anything, whether Bob was\n16   broker.                                          16   telling me the truth -- I now know Bob wasn't\n17       Q. Do you know what the time frame is        17   telling me the truth, too. And so I was\n18   in which the letter to Ms. Huebscher was         18   reluctant to sign it. My -- I was reluctant\n19   written?                                         19   to sign it and did not sign it. And if I did,\n20       A. It was during the summer of 2000,         20   I don't remember. I don't.\n21   2001 or 2002. I just really do not precisely     21           (Deposition Exhibit No. 5 was\n22   remember.                                        22   marked for identification.)\n                                          Page 79                                                     Page 81\n 1      Q. Was it your understanding that              1           BY MS. BECKER:\n 2   Fannie Mae required you to clarify the            2         Q. I am handing you --\n 3   relationship between RMS and CAM prior to your    3         A. This is not the one I was referring\n 4   doing business with Fannie Mae?                   4   to.\n 5      A. Yes.                                        5       Q. I am handing you what's been marked\n 6          (Deposition Exhibit No. 3 was              6   as Exhibit 6 -- I'm sorry, 5. Do you\n 7   marked for identification.)                       7   recognize this document?\n 8          BY MS. BECKER:                             8       A. Uh-huh.\n 9      Q. I would like to hand you what's             9       Q. What is it?\n10   marked as Exhibit 3. Does this refresh your      10       A. No -- actually, I don't recognize\n11   recollection as to the time frame of the --      11   this at all. I don't even recall seeing it.\n12      A. Yes.                                       12       Q. Do you recognize --\n13      Q. -- correspondence?                         13       A. Oh, I remember the scenario\n14      A. It appears that I sent it on --            14   perfectly.\n15   sometime in May of 2001.                         15       Q. Do you now recognize the document?\n16          MR. DANIELS: This is 3?                   16       A. I recognize the document. I don't\n17          MS. BECKER: That was 3, yes.              17   recognize this particular e-mail.\n18          (Deposition Exhibit No. 4 was             18       Q. I would like to direct your\n19   marked for identification.)                      19   attention to what's been marked as page 10547.\n20          BY MS. BECKER:                            20   Do you see that?\n21      Q. I am handing you what has been             21       A. Uh-huh.\n22   marked as Exhibit 4. What is that document?      22       Q. What is that?\n                                                                                 21 (Pages 78 to 81)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                               MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                     VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                       af779bd1-e112-4d83-87a0-2544073c0e93\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB         Document 33-4       Filed 06/21/2007     Page 23 of 54\n\n                                   Marialice Williams\n                                           Page 82                                                Page 84\n 1       A. That is the -- 47 -- an                    1   only signed by me. I believe that. I can\n 2   out-of-order page of -- it looks like it's out    2   check.\n 3   of order somewhere.                               3      Q. So your testimony is that there is\n 4         THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is               4   a co-brokerage agreement --\n 5   1:47. This is the end of tape number 1.           5      A. Uh-huh.\n 6   We're going to go off the record to change to     6      Q. -- between --\n 7   tape number 2.                                    7      A. Was.\n 8         (Pause.)                                    8      Q. There was a co-brokerage agreement\n 9         THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is               9   between you, Marialice Williams, and CAM; is\n10   1:49. This is the beginning of tape number 2.    10   that correct?\n11   We're back on the record.                        11      A. I believe that's the way it is.\n12         BY MS. BECKER:                             12      Q. And, separately, your testimony is\n13       Q. Ms. Williams, can you identify the        13   that there was a limited joint venture\n14   document marked 104 -- 10547 in Exhibit 5?       14   agreement between you, Marialice Williams, and\n15       A. It appears to be page 2 of 2 of a         15   CAM?\n16   proposed joint venture agreement between CAM     16      A. I'm sorry. I didn't understand --\n17   Financial Services and Risk Mitigation           17   what was the prior question?\n18   Strategists.                                     18      Q. The first question was whether\n19       Q. At the bottom of the page there is        19   there was a co-brokerage agreement between\n20   a signature. Do you see that?                    20   Marialice Williams and CAM?\n21       A. Yes.                                      21      A. I believe it was called -- no. I'm\n22       Q. Whose signature is that?                  22   not sure whether it -- you know, I have to be\n                                           Page 83                                                Page 85\n 1       A. That's Harvey Hartsfield.                  1   honest with you, from 1998 in June until, as\n 2       Q. So Mr. Hartsfield is signing this          2   you can see, two -- several -- two years later\n 3   joint venture agreement on behalf of Risk         3   at least, we know that I was attempting to\n 4   Mitigation Strategists; is that correct?          4   work out something with CAM Financial.\n 5       A. Yes, he signed it on behalf of Risk        5   Nothing ever worked out that would have\n 6   Mitigation Strategists. He, too, is an            6   reflected anything that I would have\n 7   insurance broker. He is still actively            7   contemplated before I left Fannie Mae.\n 8   licensed. It was never consummated. No            8          But because we all kept going at\n 9   agreement was ever consummated with CAM.          9   trying to do this business, since I had\n10       Q. So there never was a joint venture        10   created it, there was a point at which I\n11   agreement with CAM; is that correct?             11   believe Bob actively had an insurance company\n12       A. There was a limited joint venture         12   in Baltimore, and -- Fidelity, I believe it\n13   agreement that is not these documents that we    13   was -- that wanted to hear a presentation\n14   have been looking at. These are all attempts,    14   jointly -- jointly. And at that time, because\n15   prior to the discussions with Fannie Mae         15   the relationship was with CAM, the --\n16   telling me not to do business with them. And     16   Fidelity's relationship was with CAM, in order\n17   then after Fannie Mae said you can't do          17   for me to ensure, because Bob had not paid me\n18   business with them directly, that is when --     18   or shared -- and I didn't know until later how\n19   or I guess we did wind up signing -- I believe   19   much money he was making from Fannie Mae until\n20   it's three paragraphs, and it simply says that   20   I saw those tapes and stuff -- I thought the\n21   we agree to share commissions if we both work    21   only way I could ensure that I could -- would\n22   on the transaction. But I believe that one is    22   be on there was to get something signed.\n                                                                             22 (Pages 82 to 85)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                           MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                 VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                   af779bd1-e112-4d83-87a0-2544073c0e93\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 33-4        Filed 06/21/2007      Page 24 of 54\n\n                                   Marialice Williams\n                                           Page 86                                                 Page 88\n 1   Because I've had the experience with Eric         1   signatory.\n 2   Rosenfield in Metropolitan -- you know,           2          BY MS. BECKER:\n 3   everybody seemed to be kind of not honoring       3       Q. I would like to direct your\n 4   what they were saying.                            4   attention to the first paragraph of the mutual\n 5           So I believe that the small               5   non-disclosure agreement. Do you see where it\n 6   agreement was one to ensure that I would          6   says that, \"This mutual non-disclosure\n 7   receive commissions if that company was used      7   agreement is made and entered into as of the\n 8   to do any Fannie Mae business or any other        8   date set forth below by and between Fannie Mae\n 9   business. That's why you don't see two            9   and the entity whose name and address are set\n10   signatures on anything.                          10   forth below (the Company)\"?\n11       Q. You believe that there were two           11       A. Uh-huh.\n12   signatures on a co-brokerage agreement?          12       Q. Who is the entity whose name and\n13       A. I believe there was on this one           13   address are set forth below?\n14   document, but it's none of these -- there is     14       A. Mine. My company and -- RMS.\n15   no language anywhere like this in the document   15       Q. The company that's identified below\n16   I'm referring to. I believe it's just a          16   with their address is Risk Mitigation\n17   little three-paragraph thing that says we will   17   Strategists, LLC; is that correct?\n18   share the commissions in this deal or            18       A. That's correct.\n19   something like that, and that happens all the    19       Q. Did Risk Mitigation Strategists,\n20   time.                                            20   LLC, ever file tax returns?\n21       Q. And is it your testimony that the         21       A. I don't remember -- no. No, I'm\n22   three-paragraph document indicating that you     22   filing them now. I don't -- I mean, I'm not\n                                           Page 87                                                 Page 89\n 1   would share commissions with CAM is the only      1   even sure. I don't think so. We had no\n 2   formalized agreement between you and CAM?         2   income, so we didn't file any tax return.\n 3      A. I know that. And I now know why.            3      Q. Was the income from Risk Mitigation\n 4      Q. I would like to show you what will          4   Strategists, LLC, zero?\n 5   be marked as Exhibit 6.                           5      A. Yes.\n 6          (Deposition Exhibit No. 6 was              6      Q. I believe you just testified that\n 7   marked for identification.)                       7   you are currently filing tax returns for Risk\n 8          BY MS. BECKER:                             8   Mitigation Strategists, LLC?\n 9      Q. Can you identify that document?             9      A. No, not for Risk Mitigation\n10      A. This is a mutual non-disclosure            10   Strategists. Well, I guess we are to the\n11   agreement.                                       11   extent that it's one of the noted companies\n12      Q. What was your understanding of the         12   that I had during that time. I haven't seen\n13   purpose of this document?                        13   the new returns. You don't want to know the\n14      A. The purpose of this document was to        14   story.\n15   ensure that Fannie Mae did not take my ideas     15      Q. Did Risk Mitigation Strategists,\n16   and go to another insurance company.             16   LLC, have any operating expenses?\n17      Q. Who are the parties to the mutual          17      A. Yes. Yes, it did.\n18   non-disclosure agreement?                        18      Q. What were those?\n19          MR. DANIELS: I'm sorry. I lost            19      A. They were typical office expenses\n20   track of this. Is this 6?                        20   that anyone would have that's in business:\n21          THE WITNESS: Yes. Marialice               21   Rent, telephones and so forth. They were --\n22   Williams and Fannie Mae, Grace Huebscher         22   none of them were in the name of Risk\n                                                                              23 (Pages 86 to 89)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                            MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                  VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                    af779bd1-e112-4d83-87a0-2544073c0e93\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB         Document 33-4       Filed 06/21/2007     Page 25 of 54\n\n                                    Marialice Williams\n                                            Page 90                                                Page 92\n 1   Mitigation Strategists. They were just all in     1   correct?\n 2   my personal name.                                 2       A. Yes.\n 3      Q. Did Risk Mitigation Strategists,            3       Q. Where else did you search?\n 4   LLC, have a payroll?                              4       A. That's the only place I searched.\n 5      A. No.                                         5   It's the only place I have documents.\n 6      Q. Were there ever any financial               6       Q. Did you contact Julia Williams?\n 7   statements for Risk Mitigation Strategists?       7       A. She's dead.\n 8      A. No.                                         8       Q. Do you have documents related to\n 9         (Deposition Exhibit No. 7 was               9   the CAM litigation?\n10   marked for identification.)                      10       A. You sent me a lot of documents from\n11         BY MS. BECKER:                             11   the CAM litigation.\n12      Q. I am handing you what's been marked        12       Q. Other than documents that Fannie\n13   as Exhibit 7. Do you recognize this document?    13   Mae has produced to you, do you have any\n14      A. Yes.                                       14   documents in your possession related to the\n15      Q. What is it?                                15   CAM litigation?\n16      A. It's a complaint filed in the              16       A. I don't think so, but I had a\n17   District Court by me against Fannie Mae.         17   storage area -- unit on U Street, Northwest,\n18      Q. Do you recognize this document as          18   the 1300 block, and I was traveling a lot and\n19   Fannie Mae's request for production of           19   they changed the rate by $10, and by the time\n20   documents directed to you in this litigation?    20   I got the notice, they had sold all the\n21      A. Do I recognize it as --                    21   contents of that. And that's the only other\n22      Q. Fannie Mae's request for production        22   place where I had documents in boxes and stuff\n                                            Page 91                                                Page 93\n 1   of documents in this litigation.                  1   like that, and a mink coat and, you know,\n 2      A. Oh, I don't -- I don't know.                2   things -- old stuff, but, you know, it's gone.\n 3      Q. Have you seen this document before?         3   I don't know where it is and I can't get it.\n 4      A. Yes.                                        4       Q. What documents do you believe were\n 5      Q. What is your understanding of what          5   in the storage area on U Street?\n 6   this document is?                                 6       A. I really -- I can't say. I would\n 7      A. It's a complaint. It's a complaint          7   have gone through it if it would have been\n 8   with these various -- oh, I'm sorry. I            8   available and I would have disclosed them to\n 9   apologize. I wasn't reading it. I was just        9   you.\n10   seeing that. This is a request for production    10       Q. Do you have any recollection of\n11   of documents to me.                              11   putting documents in the --\n12      Q. Have you seen that document before?        12       A. No.\n13      A. Yes.                                       13       Q. -- U Street storage facility?\n14      Q. Did you search for documents in            14       A. No. I know that there were boxes\n15   response to Fannie Mae's document requests?      15   that contained legal files and records of\n16      A. I searched everything I had to             16   things that I no longer have.\n17   comply with this.                                17       Q. Do you have any reason to believe\n18      Q. Where did you search?                      18   that there were any documents in the U Street\n19      A. My office.                                 19   storage facility related in any way to Fannie\n20      Q. Where is your office?                      20   Mae or to CAM?\n21      A. 1922 First Street, Northwest.              21       A. You know, I remember when Bob Jones\n22      Q. That's at your home; is that               22   filed the original complaint in his case, and\n                                                                             24 (Pages 90 to 93)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                           MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                 VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                    af779bd1-e112-4d83-87a0-2544073c0e93\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB         Document 33-4       Filed 06/21/2007     Page 26 of 54\n\n                                    Marialice Williams\n                                            Page 94                                               Page 96\n 1   the original case did not involve Fannie Mae.     1   on it.\n 2   And I know that I saw that complaint, and I am    2      Q. They were deposition transcripts?\n 3   pretty sure I had a copy of it, but I don't       3      A. Yes.\n 4   have it now. And then, later on, Fannie Mae       4      Q. There were four pages?\n 5   was added as a necessary party.                   5      A. Just about four pages.\n 6       Q. Do you have any reason to believe          6      Q. And that's the only thing, to your\n 7   that you had documents in the U Street storage    7   knowledge, that Ms. Williams had relating to\n 8   facility related to Fannie Mae or CAM?            8   the CAM litigation?\n 9       A. I believe there may have been some         9      A. That's as far as I know.\n10   there.                                           10      Q. You've previously testified that\n11       Q. What do you believe that those may        11   you had reviewed the documents that Fannie Mae\n12   have been?                                       12   produced, at least in large part; is that\n13       A. Oh, I couldn't tell you.                  13   correct?\n14       Q. Other than Ms. Williams, did you          14      A. A lot of it, yes, watching the\n15   work with anybody -- with any other lawyer in    15   videos.\n16   connection with the CAM litigation?              16      Q. Based on your review of the\n17       A. No. At my last deposition, Michael        17   documents that Fannie Mae produced, do you\n18   Beasley, Harley Daniels and Brian Lederer        18   have any present intention of amending your\n19   attended the deposition with me.                 19   complaint?\n20       Q. Do you know where Julia Williams'         20      A. Yes. My attorney has spoken to me\n21   files are?                                       21   about that.\n22       A. No.                                       22      Q. I am not going to ask you any\n                                            Page 95                                               Page 97\n 1       Q. Have you made any effort to locate         1   questions about any conversations that you've\n 2   her files relating to the CAM litigation?         2   had with your lawyer, but I am going to ask\n 3       A. I'm sorry. I apologize. She had            3   you whether you currently have any intent to\n 4   nothing but some -- you know, when they send      4   amend your complaint?\n 5   you a copy of the deposition so you can check     5      A. I intend to follow my attorney's\n 6   it to see if that's what you really said, you     6   advice.\n 7   know, where you check through it after it's       7      Q. Do you intend to amend your\n 8   taken. That's all she had in a file. I do         8   complaint?\n 9   remember that.                                    9      A. I believe -- yes.\n10           I did go to her office right after       10      Q. In what way do you intend to amend\n11   her death. Her family had already boxed up       11   your complaint?\n12   her entire office, and they did it in no order   12      A. I intend to amend my complaint to\n13   that represented anything intelligent. And I     13   further clarify that I was denied business\n14   did search through there, and I do remember      14   with Fannie Mae on the basis of my race.\n15   there was a file and all it had in it were       15      Q. Is there any other respect in which\n16   about four sheets of paper, and they were four   16   you intend to amend your complaint?\n17   pages from a deposition, and that's all she      17      A. We really have not finished our\n18   had.                                             18   discussions.\n19       Q. Are you referring to what's known         19      Q. What do you intend to clarify with\n20   as errata sheets?                                20   respect to your allegation that you were\n21       A. I don't know what they're called.         21   denied business with Fannie Mae based on your\n22   No, they were actual -- they had my testimony    22   race?\n                                                                             25 (Pages 94 to 97)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                           MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                 VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                   af779bd1-e112-4d83-87a0-2544073c0e93\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 33-4        Filed 06/21/2007      Page 27 of 54\n\n                                  Marialice Williams\n                                          Page 98                                                 Page 100\n 1       A. Until I saw certain documentation,         1   Fannie Mae, totally un -- have no clue,\n 2   I had been led to believe there was no            2   really, about Fannie Mae and its processes and\n 3   business going on between CAM and Fannie Mae      3   procedures, and yet they were given a great\n 4   after 1998, which turns out is incorrect.         4   deal of business using a product that I had\n 5       Q. What documents are you referring           5   created and had been told that I was going to\n 6   to?                                               6   be able to get business from once I left.\n 7       A. There is a -- let's see.                   7          And it didn't make sense that Craig\n 8   Mr. Daniels' law clerk went to Mississippi and    8   Ott was an international broker because Fannie\n 9   obtained from the courthouse there, although      9   Mae wouldn't permit any of the insurance\n10   it was difficult since it was part of Katrina,   10   business to be done with any international\n11   the record in the -- public record in the Bob    11   firm. It had to be a firm that was from the\n12   Jones case. And that was my initial -- the       12   United States and it had to be a triple A\n13   beginning of when -- that was when I began to    13   rated firm, and Bob Jones and I had identified\n14   understand that CAM Financial had made a great   14   and brought into Fannie Mae and had under\n15   deal of money from Fannie Mae and I had made     15   confidentiality agreement every single firm\n16   none, and I had done a great deal of work,       16   that had those standards at that time.\n17   including creating the product itself.           17          So if Mr. Ott -- and I saw a copy\n18          And then I discovered in the              18   of something that purported to be some kind of\n19   depositions that what I was -- had seen          19   insurance policy or something that he wrote\n20   represented only a portion of the business       20   that looked like something a third grader\n21   that -- because we did not copy all the          21   would have written; I, on the other hand, had\n22   records, absolutely every record, that there     22   written policy after policy -- I believe it\n                                          Page 99                                                 Page 101\n 1   were, in fact -- there was a substantial        1     was up to 50 versions of it, went through all\n 2   amount of business that continued to be done    2     the -- went through all the language, went\n 3   between Fannie Mae and Bob Jones.               3     through -- worked with lawyers from AIG and\n 4       Q. Assuming that business was done          4     Fannie Mae who were happy they were working\n 5   between --                                      5     with a lawyer because Bob was not. And, you\n 6          THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Excuse me. I           6     know, I felt I had made such a significant\n 7   have to go off the record real quick. The       7     contribution to Fannie Mae's bottom line that\n 8   time is 2:12. We have to go off the record.     8     I should have been given the business, as\n 9          (Pause.)                                 9     were -- most white people who left Fannie Mae\n10          THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is           10     usually left and got some kind of contract or\n11   2:12. We're back on the record.                11     something.\n12          BY MS. BECKER:                          12            I was told over and over again\n13       Q. Assuming that there was business        13     there wasn't going to be any contract for me\n14   between CAM Financial and Fannie Mae after you 14     because we don't pay people to do marketing,\n15   left Fannie Mae, how would that affect your    15     but if you can bring something in here that's\n16   complaint that you were denied business with   16     decent, we will try to do it with you. And I\n17   Fannie Mae based on your race?                 17     brought lots of things in, and they did\n18       A. Well, Mr. Ott whom Richard Lawch        18     nothing. It turns out they did do something;\n19   bragged about being a, quote/unquote,          19     they just didn't do it with me.\n20   international broker and Bob Jones both are    20         Q. So the new allegation that you\n21   less educated, less knowledgeable about the    21     intend to bring in your complaint is that\n22   financial markets, less knowledgeable about    22     Fannie Mae did business with Bob Jones instead\n                                                                            26 (Pages 98 to 101)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                           MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                 VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                    af779bd1-e112-4d83-87a0-2544073c0e93\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB         Document 33-4       Filed 06/21/2007      Page 28 of 54\n\n                                    Marialice Williams\n                                          Page 102                                                Page 104\n 1   of with you?                                      1   as the affordable housing program.\n 2       A. And Craig Ott.                             2          I did not quit my job because I\n 3          MR. DANIELS: Yes, we have two              3   didn't think I was going to have a lot of\n 4   1981s. In other words, the -- Bob Jones will      4   work. I thought I was going to have a ton of\n 5   be recast as a 1981, together with Craig Ott,     5   work.\n 6   a person of inferior qualification.               6       Q. What are agg deals?\n 7          MS. BECKER: Do you intend to drop          7       A. Aggregation deals? That's a\n 8   your claim for tortious interference?             8   program -- it's a concept that I created, and\n 9          MR. DANIELS: I will state for the          9   it then became a way of Fannie Mae doing what\n10   record that until we take Bob Jones'             10   conduits do on Wall Street with respect to\n11   deposition, I can't tell whether the tortious    11   securitizing mortgages. In other words,\n12   interference claims will survive. But it will    12   instead of having an investment banker come\n13   in large part depend on his deposition because   13   in, such as Morgan Stanley, and give you one\n14   I have reason to believe that he isn't fully     14   pool of mortgage loans that represents one\n15   being truthful about what Fannie Mae told him    15   company, their company, because they're the\n16   about doing business with Marialice. I don't     16   conduit, Fannie Mae decided instead to step\n17   believe it.                                      17   into that role and aggregate those pools like\n18          BY MS. BECKER:                            18   a conduit would do and then issue one security\n19       Q. What specific business did Fannie         19   backed by multi -- by different lenders, pools\n20   Mae do with CAM Financial that you intend to     20   of mortgages.\n21   raise in your amended complaint?                 21       Q. How is an aggregation deal\n22       A. All of the transactions that Fannie       22   different from a DUS deal?\n                                          Page 103                                                Page 105\n 1   Mae did with Bob Jones after I left Fannie        1       A. DUS is -- it's no different. It's\n 2   Mae. I'm sorry. My chest...                       2   just the size and difference of the structure.\n 3           MR. DANIELS: Hang in there a bit,         3   And it depends -- see, a lot of the DUS loans\n 4   Marialice.                                        4   are purchased; those were loans that were\n 5           THE WITNESS: Okay.                        5   purchased by Fannie Mae as opposed to\n 6           MR. DANIELS: This is key.                 6   securitized. Securitization is securitization\n 7           BY MS. BECKER:                            7   is securitization.\n 8       Q. What are those transactions?               8           So when there was a securitization\n 9       A. I don't know because I wasn't              9   deal on the DUS side, it was just like one\n10   involved. They're written in -- they're in       10   that we would do for any other lender.\n11   the information that was provided by you that    11       Q. There are certain loans, as I\n12   was stated by Bob. I didn't write it down.       12   understand it, that are characterized as DUS\n13   It's in all those documents I went through       13   loans; is that correct?\n14   from the Mississippi case. It's who the          14       A. Because they're done by the premier\n15   people are and what they did.                    15   group of lenders that Fannie Mae has ordained\n16           And -- I believe that all of the         16   as fit to submit their loans without any prior\n17   aggregation deals were done using the same       17   review in many instances.\n18   concept because I had worked with Grace and --   18           MR. DANIELS: Marialice, what does\n19   before I left Fannie Mae on that issue, just     19   DUS mean? Maybe just for the --\n20   as I had worked with Wendell Johns and Chris     20           THE WITNESS: It means delegated\n21   Tawa about the possibility of using insurance    21   underwriting and servicing, the notion being\n22   for the equity program of Fannie Mae as well     22   that they're good enough to do it themselves,\n                                                                          27 (Pages 102 to 105)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                            MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                  VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                    af779bd1-e112-4d83-87a0-2544073c0e93\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB         Document 33-4       Filed 06/21/2007      Page 29 of 54\n\n                                    Marialice Williams\n                                          Page 106                                                 Page 108\n 1   like a brokerage, if you will.                    1   is that correct?\n 2          BY MS. BECKER:                             2       A. Yes.\n 3      Q. And are those different from                3       Q. What were the dates of those\n 4   aggregation loans?                                4   computer crashes?\n 5      A. Aggregation loans have already been         5       A. I don't recall exactly, but I can\n 6   originated, and they come to Fannie Mae --        6   tell you that the one at the Watergate -- one\n 7   they could be anywhere between two-year           7   was while I still had an office at the\n 8   seasoned up to within three years prior to the    8   Watergate. So it had to be prior to, let's\n 9   termination of the loan document. So that's       9   see -- on 9/11 I was still at the Watergate,\n10   why they called the section where I worked and   10   so it had to be in 2001. I believe it may\n11   what I ran, until Richard Lawch came, the        11   have been in the summertime.\n12   negotiated transactions section because you're   12       Q. Was it before 9/11?\n13   negotiating with loans that have already been    13       A. I believe -- I believe it was\n14   originated.                                      14   before 9/11. It was after the date of the\n15          The DUS loans are all originated          15   e-mail that I received notifying me -- from\n16   according to a standard set of underwriting      16   the -- I think it was -- yes, I'm pretty sure\n17   practices that Fannie Mae has proscribed.        17   it was -- I'm pretty sure it was the summer of\n18      Q. And how is that different from the         18   2001.\n19   aggregation loans?                               19       Q. What did you do when your computer\n20      A. Because aggregation loans have             20   crashed?\n21   already been originated. They could have         21       A. I cried.\n22   been, let's say -- oh, I will give you a great   22       Q. Did you replace the computer?\n                                          Page 107                                                 Page 109\n 1   example. I am Fannie Mae. I am going to get       1      A. Yes. And they could not retrieve\n 2   50 loans from BB&T, 50 loans from PNC, 50         2   anything from the hard drive.\n 3   loans from Bank of America. I am going to         3      Q. When did you get a replacement?\n 4   aggregate them. But they have already been        4      A. Immediately.\n 5   originated, and I don't know necessarily under    5      Q. Would it have been within a month\n 6   what standards. But what I do, when I             6   of when the computer crashed?\n 7   negotiate the document that actually -- the       7      A. Definitely.\n 8   trust agreement in which the loans are            8           (Deposition Exhibit No. 8 was\n 9   described and so forth, the documentation, I      9   marked for identification.)\n10   describe how those loans were done.              10           BY MS. BECKER:\n11           In the DUS program, all you have to      11      Q. I am handing you what has been\n12   do is hold up the multi-family guide and say,    12   marked as Exhibit 8.\n13   this is how these loans are done, because        13      A. Right.\n14   they're all done to the letter by a specified    14      Q. Do you recognize that document?\n15   group of people who have applied for and been    15      A. I don't recognize it, but I see\n16   accepted into this program.                      16   that it is the complaint filed in 2003 -- no.\n17      Q. Is there any other respect in which        17   This is my deposition -- my deposition in Bob\n18   you intend to amend your complaint?              18   Jones' case.\n19      A. We haven't finalized the discussion        19      Q. Dated March 17, 2003?\n20   yet. To my knowledge, that's the major area.     20      A. Yes.\n21      Q. Ms. Williams, you previously               21      Q. I would like to ask you to turn to\n22   testified that you had two computer crashes;     22   page 42 of the deposition. Starting on\n                                                                           28 (Pages 106 to 109)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                            MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                  VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                     af779bd1-e112-4d83-87a0-2544073c0e93\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB         Document 33-4       Filed 06/21/2007     Page 30 of 54\n\n                                    Marialice Williams\n                                           Page 110                                              Page 112\n 1   line 21 you're talking about the computer         1          THE WITNESS: He doesn't need to\n 2   crash that occurred at the Watergate; is that     2   coach me.\n 3   correct?                                          3          MR. DANIELS: Go ahead, Marialice.\n 4       A. Uh-huh.                                    4          MS. BECKER: Then please don't.\n 5       Q. I would like to ask you to turn to         5          THE WITNESS: Well, no -- actually,\n 6   the next page which is page 43. Starting on       6   there is nothing in here that clarifies -- I\n 7   line 19, can you read that?                       7   mean, I don't see -- would you like to help\n 8       A. \"I have documents that I have              8   me? I don't know where to start.\n 9   accumulated since my new computer,\" yes.          9          This is just a bunch of argument by\n10       Q. Can you read the whole --                 10   attorneys. I don't even see any substantive\n11       A. \"But at the time that I received my       11   question in here for me.\n12   new computer, I had no further contact with      12          MR. DANIELS: Counsel, perhaps you\n13   Fannie Mae, CAM or anyone interested in either   13   can save us time. Is there a reference to\n14   of those two issues.\"                            14   which -- that we can refer to that you're\n15       Q. What were you referring to with           15   familiar with?\n16   respect to \"those two issues\"?                   16          MS. BECKER: I am asking the\n17       A. I don't remember.                         17   witness to clarify.\n18       Q. Was this a true statement when you        18          THE WITNESS: Well, I can't. I'm\n19   made it?                                         19   sorry.\n20       A. It's out of context. I would have         20          BY MS. BECKER:\n21   to look at the whole thing. I don't even know    21      Q. Okay. What did you mean by \"I have\n22   what it's about.                                 22   documents that I have accumulated since my new\n                                           Page 111                                              Page 113\n 1       Q. Feel free to read whatever you             1   computer, but at the time that I received my\n 2   think is necessary to put it in context.          2   new computer, I had no further contact with\n 3          MR. DANIELS: Frankly, given --             3   Fannie Mae\"?\n 4   excuse me. Frankly --                             4      A. What did I mean by that? It's a\n 5          MS. BECKER: If you're going to             5   whole sentence and it says \"of those two\n 6   testify --                                        6   issues,\" and if I could find out what those\n 7          MR. DANIELS: Okay. Let's see how           7   two issues are, I could tell you why I had no\n 8   I can do this so we can -- I object to her --     8   further contact with anybody about them.\n 9          MS. BECKER: If you're going to             9      Q. I would read it as saying that\n10   make a speaking objection, I object to that as   10   those two issues are Fannie Mae or CAM in the\n11   well. If you want to object for the record,      11   context of that sentence. But it's your\n12   you can object.                                  12   testimony, so I am asking you to --\n13          MR. DANIELS: Okay. I object to            13      A. I don't think it refers to Fannie\n14   the form of the question on the ground that      14   Mae and CAM.\n15   the statement being referred to is extremely     15      Q. Okay. Was it true as of the date\n16   vague, and that --                               16   of your deposition on March 17, 2003, that at\n17          MS. BECKER: Counsel, you're making        17   the time that you got your new computer, which\n18   a speaking objection, and I would like to ask    18   would have been sometime in the summer of\n19   you to not do that, please. You're just          19   2001, that you had no further contact with\n20   coaching the witness at this point.              20   Fannie Mae or CAM?\n21          MR. DANIELS: I don't need to coach        21      A. Oh, no, that's not true. I have\n22   Marialice.                                       22   given you documents on that.\n                                                                          29 (Pages 110 to 113)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                           MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                 VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                   af779bd1-e112-4d83-87a0-2544073c0e93\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 33-4        Filed 06/21/2007      Page 31 of 54\n\n                                   Marialice Williams\n                                          Page 114                                                Page 116\n 1       Q. Why would you have testified to            1   after 2001?\n 2   that?                                             2      A. I communicated and sent things and\n 3       A. I didn't. You're telling me that I         3   talked to CAM Financial, as far as I know --\n 4   testified to that. I am telling you I didn't.     4   when was Katrina? That was in 2004, '5 --\n 5       Q. You're saying that you didn't say,         5   2005. I can tell you that when I was on\n 6   \"I have documents that I have accumulated         6   Martha's Vineyard -- that was 2005, I\n 7   since my new computer\" --                         7   believe -- in the summer of 2005, I spoke with\n 8       A. You said.                                  8   Bob Jones about business. I know that.\n 9       Q. Excuse me. I would like to finish          9      Q. Did your discussion with Bob Jones\n10   my question.                                     10   in 2005 relate to Fannie Mae?\n11          Are you saying that you did not           11      A. Yes.\n12   testify, \"I have documents that I have           12      Q. In what way?\n13   accumulated since my new computer, but at the    13      A. I was still speaking with people\n14   time that I received my new computer, I had no   14   who had an interest in pursuing credit\n15   further contact with Fannie Mae, CAM, or         15   enhancement.\n16   anyone interested in either of those two         16      Q. Tell me specifically what you\n17   issues\"?                                         17   discussed with Bob Jones in 2005 relating to\n18       A. \"Those two issues\" are not                18   Fannie Mae.\n19   referring to Fannie Mae and CAM and,             19      A. How is the insurance business? Is\n20   therefore, the conclusion that you are drawing   20   there any hope we're going to get back to\n21   is not what I was saying nor is it what I        21   doing any of this stuff? You know, how is\n22   intended to say.                                 22   your case going? Is there anything we can do,\n                                          Page 115                                                Page 117\n 1      Q. What did you intend to say?                 1   you know, to resurrect what we were trying to\n 2      A. Exactly what I said, \"or anyone             2   do? Along those lines, generally speaking.\n 3   interested in either of those two issues,\"        3      Q. Were there any specific business\n 4   which must have been something else related to    4   discussions about specific deals or specific\n 5   something else that I can't find in this          5   proposals?\n 6   document while we're sitting here.                6      A. I did not discuss specific deals\n 7      Q. So you have no idea what you were           7   with anyone until I had a confidentiality\n 8   referring to in this?                             8   agreement in place and knew that I was the\n 9      A. I have no idea.                             9   sole representation of that individual. I\n10      Q. What was the further contact that          10   just -- you just don't do that.\n11   you had with Fannie Mae or CAM after the         11      Q. So is it fair to say that you did\n12   summer of 2001?                                  12   not have any discussion with Bob Jones in 2005\n13      A. I believe I supplied all the               13   about any specific deals related to Fannie\n14   documentation to you indicating that I did       14   Mae?\n15   have contact with Fannie Mae and that I did      15      A. I had about specific deals, but I\n16   have other transactions and things I worked on   16   did not reveal the names of those specific\n17   that I --                                        17   people to Bob Jones.\n18      Q. So it would be in the documents            18      Q. What were the specific deals that\n19   that you produced?                               19   you were discussing with Bob Jones where you\n20      A. I believe so.                              20   didn't reveal the names of them?\n21      Q. What was the nature of the                 21      A. Oh, I just can't remember right\n22   communications you had with Fannie Mae or CAM    22   now.\n                                                                          30 (Pages 114 to 117)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                            MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                  VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                    af779bd1-e112-4d83-87a0-2544073c0e93\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 33-4       Filed 06/21/2007     Page 32 of 54\n\n                                   Marialice Williams\n                                         Page 118                                               Page 120\n 1       Q. What specific deals did you have          1   person to your deal is your reinsurer because\n 2   going related to Fannie Mae in the 2005 time     2   the rating of the reinsurer is what attaches\n 3   frame?                                           3   to the rating of the credit enhancement which\n 4       A. You don't have deals related to           4   relates to the rating of the securities\n 5   Fannie Mae. What you have is you have            5   themselves.\n 6   clients, and they're looking for a way to lay    6          So there were -- because I had an\n 7   off risk and they're looking at their various    7   entree to the insurance commissioner in the\n 8   options: Should I go this way? Should I go       8   District of Columbia -- I don't recall if he\n 9   that way? What's cheaper? What's better?         9   was in Washington; if he wasn't in Washington,\n10   What will give me a better product? What kind   10   he was on the telephone with Larry to\n11   of execution?                                   11   discuss -- when we were discussing Tom -- it\n12          That's what you talk about. You          12   was Tom Hampton, Larry -- the former insurance\n13   don't talk about, I want to go to Fannie Mae    13   commissioner; Tom Hampton is now the insurance\n14   and I want to do it this way. That's not how    14   commissioner, and Dana -- I can't remember his\n15   it works in the marketplace.                    15   last name, but he was the counsel. And then\n16       Q. So you weren't having a discussion       16   the head of the insurance side was a woman.\n17   with Bob Jones in 2005 about any specific       17          They were all in a room with us,\n18   business related to Fannie Mae?                 18   and we were all discussing this whole concept\n19       A. Potential business for Fannie Mae,       19   of trying to do affordable housing mortgage\n20   yes.                                            20   loan securitization using captive insurance as\n21       Q. And what was that specific               21   the credit enhancement, and we could not move\n22   potential business that you were discussing     22   forward. We were working with -- I know\n                                         Page 119                                               Page 121\n 1   with Bob Jones?                                  1   Pinnacle was one of them, but there were\n 2      A. I don't remember right now.                2   several other people. And there were some\n 3      Q. Other than the communication that          3   things that weren't even mortgage loan-related\n 4   you had with Bob Jones in 2005, what other       4   such as John Taylor at the NCRC, it's called.\n 5   communications did you have with CAM between     5   It's an organization that represents community\n 6   the summer of 2001 and the present?              6   housing organizations. And we were discussing\n 7      A. You said other than Fannie Mae?            7   the feasibility of using the captive.\n 8          MS. BECKER: Can you read the              8           We believed that at that time -- or\n 9   question back?                                   9   at least it appeared from the beginning that\n10          (The reporter read the record as         10   that would be an appropriate utilization of a\n11   requested.)                                     11   captive, a form of captive insurance. And\n12          THE WITNESS: I had a lot of              12   that's -- you know, we just -- we continued to\n13   conversations with Bob Jones. I probably        13   have those discussions.\n14   spoke to him every week, every other week,      14           BY MS. BECKER:\n15   about any number of insurance proposals. We     15       Q. Was there anytime between the\n16   had a new -- in the District of Columbia, we    16   summer of 2001 and the present where you had\n17   have one of the newest captive insurance --     17   communications with Bob Jones relating to\n18   we're one of the newest captive insurance       18   Fannie Mae?\n19   jurisdictions.                                  19       A. Yes, I talked to Bob Jones about\n20          And Bob Jones had the reinsurance        20   Fannie Mae every week or every other week or\n21   contacts, and when you're doing a captive       21   every few days or whenever he called or\n22   insurance transaction, the most critical        22   whenever I called him.\n                                                                         31 (Pages 118 to 121)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                          MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                  af779bd1-e112-4d83-87a0-2544073c0e93\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 33-4        Filed 06/21/2007     Page 33 of 54\n\n                                   Marialice Williams\n                                         Page 122                                                 Page 124\n 1       Q. And what was the nature of those           1   had relating to Bob Jones, potential Fannie\n 2   discussions?                                      2   Mae transactions. I honestly cannot remember\n 3       A. Are we ever going to do this               3   all of -- or any right now of the -- I would\n 4   business again? Shall I -- you know, that         4   have to go back and make sure it was 2001.\n 5   kind of thing.                                    5           I wouldn't want to say something\n 6          MR. DANIELS: Asked and answered.           6   now on the record and then you come back and\n 7          THE WITNESS: Yes, I did answer             7   say, well, you said this and that's -- you\n 8   that, didn't I?                                   8   know, now you're changing it or whatever. So\n 9          BY MS. BECKER:                             9   for me to answer that one, I mean, I would\n10       Q. Do you need the question read back?       10   have to go back to records and look at them to\n11       A. No. I said -- that's what I said.         11   answer that question to know the exact dates,\n12       Q. Okay. What was the nature of the          12   which year and which specific things we talked\n13   communications that you had with Bob Jones       13   about. I wouldn't be able to do that, sitting\n14   related to Fannie Mae from the summer of 2001    14   here.\n15   to the present?                                  15       Q. As you sit here today, do you have\n16       A. They were personal in nature.             16   any recollection of any discussions with Bob\n17   Fannie Mae we discussed.                         17   Jones after the summer of 2001 relating to any\n18       Q. And I am focusing you on Fannie           18   specific business proposals --\n19   Mae.                                             19       A. Yes, I believe I've answered\n20       A. Fannie Mae. Fannie Mae. We talked         20   that --\n21   about Fannie Mae a lot. He had a major           21       Q. -- with Fannie Mae?\n22   lawsuit against Fannie Mae. We talked about      22       A. -- several times, and said yes.\n                                         Page 123                                                 Page 125\n 1   it a lot.                                         1      Q. What were those proposals?\n 2       Q. Other than the lawsuit, what               2      A. I cannot remember --\n 3   discussions did you have with Bob Jones           3      Q. What were the discussions?\n 4   relating to Fannie Mae from the summer of 2001    4      A. -- but I did provide that\n 5   to the present?                                   5   information as requested in this exhibit back\n 6       A. We talked about every client that I        6   here where you asked me for all of those\n 7   was -- every client I would get, I would          7   things I gave you -- and it was marked by the\n 8   pretty much discuss it with Bob Jones because,    8   numbers of each of your requests exactly what\n 9   again, he's the one that had a lot of the         9   they were. And it did include items that were\n10   contacts that I didn't have and I had some       10   discussed with Bob Jones.\n11   contacts he didn't have. So when something       11           And I believe at the very outset of\n12   came in and it looked like it was viable, I      12   this conversation, if you go back in her\n13   would call Bob. I thought he was my friend.      13   record, it says -- you know, I know Pinnacle\n14   I thought he was my loyal business associate     14   was after 2001 and I know I discussed that\n15   at that time. I now know that that is not        15   with Bob Jones. Any number of things. I'm\n16   true.                                            16   just -- I'm just not feeling very well, and\n17       Q. Between the summer of 2001 and the        17   that's not helping at all.\n18   present, did you have any discussions with Bob   18           I can't -- it's -- you know. I can\n19   Jones relating to any specific proposals with    19   answer it when I look back at the\n20   Fannie Mae?                                      20   documentation.\n21       A. Yes, and I have given you all of          21      Q. Do you feel, as you're sitting here\n22   that information in my -- everything that I      22   right now, that you can answer questions with\n                                                                          32 (Pages 122 to 125)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                           MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                 VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                    af779bd1-e112-4d83-87a0-2544073c0e93\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 33-4            Filed 06/21/2007                          Page 34 of 54\n\n                                       Marialice Williams\n                                              Page 126                                                                        Page 128\n 1   a full recollection?                                 1            CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC\n 2      A. No.                                            2        I, Deborah Larson Hommer, RPR, the officer\n 3           MS. BECKER: Let's go off the                 3      before whom the foregoing deposition was\n 4   record.                                              4      taken, do hereby certify that the witness\n 5           THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is\n                                                          5      whose testimony appears in the foregoing\n                                                          6      deposition was duly sworn by me; that the\n 6   2:46. We're off the record.                          7      testimony of said witness was taken by me in\n 7           (Discussion held off the record.)            8      stenotype and thereafter reduced to\n 8           THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is                9      typewriting under my direction; that said\n 9   2:46. That's the end of today's deposition.         10      deposition is a true record of the testimony\n10                                                       11      given by said witness; that I am neither\n11         (Whereupon, signature not having              12      counsel for, related to, nor employed by any\n12   been waived, the taking of the deposition           13      of the parties to the action in which this\n13   adjourned at 2:46 p.m.)                             14      deposition was taken; and, further, that I am\n14                                                       15      not a relative or employee of any attorney or\n15                                                       16      counsel employed by the parties hereto, nor\n16\n                                                         17      financially or otherwise interested in the\n                                                         18      outcome of the action.\n17                                                       19                 ________________________\n18                                                                          Notary Public in and for\n19                                                       20                 the District of Columbia\n20                                                               My Commission Expires:\n21                                                       21      October 14, 2008\n22                                                       22\n                                              Page 127                                                                        Page 129\n                                                         1    April 10, 2007\n 1            *   * *                                    2\n 2                                                            Harley Jay Daniels, Esquire\n                                                         3    Law Offices of Harley Jay Daniels\n 3        ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF DEPONENT                          5511 Second Street, N.W.\n                                                         4    Washington, D.C. 20011\n 4                                                       5\n                                                              Re: Marialice Bathrus Williams v. Fannie Mae,\n 5    I, Marialice Bathrus Williams, do hereby           6      et al.\n 6   acknowledge I have read and examined the                   Deposition of Marialice Bathrus Williams\n                                                         7\n 7   foregoing pages of testimony, and the same is       8    As requested at the time of deposition, your\n                                                              original deposition transcript in the\n 8   a true, correct and complete transcription of       9    above-captioned case is being held for thirty\n                                                              (30) days for review and signature.\n 9   the testimony given by me, and any changes          10\n                                                              This task may be accomplished in one of two\n10   and/or corrections, if any, appear in the           11   ways; either the deponent may appear at our\n11   attached errata sheet signed by me.                 12\n                                                              office to read and sign the deposition\n                                                              transcript for which the deponent should make\n12                                                            an appointment at (202) 429-0014, or counsel\n                                                         13   may provide the witness with a copy of the\n13   __________________ _______________________               transcript, from which the deponent shall make\n                                                         14   an errata sheet.\n14   Date         Signature                              15   If the latter method is chosen and the witness\n15                                                       16\n                                                              is provided with a copy of the deposition\n                                                              transcript for review, the deponent should\n16                                                            keep in mind that the purpose of review is\n                                                         17   only to ensure accuracy and not to revise in\n17                                                            an editorial manner. If any changes or\n                                                         18   corrections are necessary, the deponent should\n18                                                            prepare an errata sheet listing by page and\n19                                                       19   line numbers the change or correction made;\n                                                              i.e., page 15, line 8, change \"he said\" to\n20                                                       20   \"she said.\" When the errata sheet is\n                                                              completed it should be signed by the deponent.\n21                                                       21   This signed errata sheet will subsequently be\n                                                              attached to the original deposition transcript\n22                                                       22   and be filed with the Court.\n\n\n                                                                                               33 (Pages 126 to 129)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                                             MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                                   VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                                                af779bd1-e112-4d83-87a0-2544073c0e93\n\f            Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB              Document 33-4   Filed 06/21/2007   Page 35 of 54\n\n                                            Marialice Williams\n                                                  Page 130\n1    The original transcript will be held until May\n     4, 2007, at which time if the deponent has not\n2    followed either of the above two steps for\n     reading his deposition transcript, it will be\n3    assumed that reading and signing are no longer\n     desired, and the deposition will be filed.\n 4\n 5   Sincerely,\n 6\n 7   Deborah Larson Hommer, RPR\n 8\n 9\n10\n11\n12\n13\n14\n15\n16\n17\n18\n19\n20\n21\n22\n                                                  Page 131\n1    Esquire Deposition Services\n     1020 19th Street, Northwest\n2    Suite 620\n     Washington, D.C. 20036\n3    (202) 429-0014\n4             ERRATA SHEET\n5\n     Case Name: Marialice Bathrus Williams v.\n6           Fannie Mae, et al.\n     Witness Name: Marialice Bathrus Williams\n7    Deposition Date: March 28, 2007\n     Job No.: 179392\n8\n     Page No. Line No.      Change\n 9\n10\n11\n12\n13\n14\n15\n16\n17\n18\n19\n20\n21\n                         ____________\n22   Signature              Date\n\n                                                                            34 (Pages 130 to 131)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                              MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                    VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                     af779bd1-e112-4d83-87a0-2544073c0e93\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 33-4        Filed 06/21/2007      Page 36 of 54\n\n                                   Marialice Williams\n                                                                                                  Page 1\n\n         A              15:14 17:10         amending 96:18        asked 27:16 40:2        96:20 128:15\nabandon 51:1          advice 97:6           America 107:3           48:2 58:15 74:8     attorneys 112:10\nabandoned 50:12       advisory 10:10        amount 53:10 99:2       122:6 125:6         attorney's 97:5\n  50:14 51:5          affect 99:15          and/or 127:10         asking 26:20 78:5     August 30:3 80:1\nable 18:22 26:3       affordable 54:2       annual 22:6 23:6        112:16 113:12       authorize 66:8\n  49:2 53:20 69:18      55:7 66:19 104:1      31:8,8              aspects 56:6          automobile 11:21\n  74:11 100:6           120:19              answer 21:1 27:1      asset 54:4              12:8,9 52:12\n  124:13              afraid 46:14            58:2 122:7 124:9    assets 52:9 53:14     available 93:8\nabove-captioned       African-American        124:11 125:19,22    assigned 41:15        Avenue 4:2 9:6\n  129:9                 61:3                answered 42:16          47:6,10,16 75:19    aware 51:12 67:8\nabsolutely 53:5       afternoon 73:12,13      122:6 124:19        assist 35:17 66:19    a.m 2:4 6:13\n  56:17 64:20 98:22   agg 104:6             anybody 20:13         assistant 13:20\n                      aggregate 104:17        77:15 94:15 113:8     15:7 16:7,15,18              B\nabsorb 27:18\naccepted 107:16         107:4               anymore 20:17           16:20               back 17:16 18:21\naccident 47:22 48:9   aggregation 67:1      anytime 121:15        associate 71:17        20:22 39:15 43:21\naccomplished            103:17 104:7,21     apologize 48:5 91:9     123:14               47:22 53:3 56:11\n  129:10                106:4,5,19,20         95:3                associated 23:21       62:15 65:12 73:4\naccounting 56:6       ago 11:13 24:12       appear 127:10           24:2 26:8 27:6       82:11 99:11\naccumulated 110:9       32:2                  129:11                32:16 34:14 35:19    116:20 119:9\n  112:22 114:6,13     agree 83:21           appearances 3:1         53:4 55:20           122:10 124:4,6,10\naccuracy 129:17       agreement 5:17          40:12               association 1:10       125:5,12,19\naccurate 76:21          57:5 74:7,16 75:2   appeared 121:9          3:11 6:18 18:11     backed 53:14\nACES 68:17,17           76:5,19 77:1,5,10   appears 34:7 79:14    assumed 130:3          104:19\nacknowledge 127:6       77:17 78:12 82:16     82:15 128:5         Assuming 99:4,13      Baltimore 85:12\nACKNOWLED...            83:3,9,11,13 84:4   applied 107:15        Atlantic 24:22 53:9   Bank 11:1 107:3\n  127:3                 84:8,14,19 86:6     apply 53:16,17          53:10 54:11,14,19   banker 25:10 71:3\nacting 71:13            86:12 87:2,11,18    appointment 44:1        55:9                 104:12\naction 1:6 128:13       88:5,7 100:15         44:5 129:12         attached 127:11       banking 32:14\n  128:18                107:8 117:8         appropriate 57:17       129:21              banks 56:2\nactive 13:8,12        ahead 18:19 26:22       66:5 121:10         attaches 120:2        based 33:3 43:6\nactively 14:8 17:8      112:3               approximately         attachment 5:7         96:16 97:21 99:17\n  18:5 37:15 83:7     AIG 25:7 63:3,4,13      11:17 28:16           34:18,21,22 35:9    basically 12:2\n  85:11                 63:18,22 64:7,15    April 129:1           attachments 5:15      basis 31:8 45:21\nactual 95:22            65:5,8,16,20 67:4   area 92:17 93:5       attempt 55:17          46:1,9 54:7 97:14\nadapted 55:14           67:8,16 101:3         107:20              attempting 24:8       Bates 1:8\nadded 94:5            al 1:10 3:11 5:8,12   areas 54:1              31:20 32:5,9 33:1   Bathrus 1:5,15 2:7\nadditional 43:15        129:6 131:6         argument 112:9          35:17 43:2 44:13     7:12,16 8:6 73:6\n  69:14               Alan 46:2             Aries 24:19 31:5,7      49:3 50:8 85:3       127:5 129:5,6\naddress 8:7,11,14     Alexander 3:21          31:14,21 32:1,5,9   attempts 83:14         131:5,6\n  8:19 9:9 88:9,13    allegation 97:20        36:22 37:4,10,22    attended 94:19        BB&T 107:2\n  88:16                 101:20                38:4 39:3,18,20     attention 36:7        Beasley 94:18\nadhered 56:7          alternative 68:18       40:15 41:19 42:4      76:16 77:20 81:19   Becker 3:19 5:4\nadjourned 126:13      amend 97:4,7,10         42:9,15 43:11         88:4                 6:22 7:1,22 8:3\nadministrative          97:12,16 107:18       44:10               attorney 14:15         20:22 21:4 28:9\n                      amended 102:21        Arpin 41:9              17:13 20:2,12        33:14 34:1 35:7,8\n\n\nEsquire Deposition Services                                             MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                   VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\f        Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB         Document 33-4       Filed 06/21/2007    Page 37 of 54\n\n                                  Marialice Williams\n                                                                                                 Page 2\n\n 39:10,16 72:4         69:12               brokerage 76:10       106:10 121:4,21       109:18 116:22\n 73:11 75:13 79:8    billion 27:15          106:1                121:22                129:9 131:5\n 79:17,20 81:1       bit 18:19 103:3       brokers 52:10       calling 62:5          cash 74:22\n 82:12 87:8 88:2     blanking 33:18        brought 17:12 63:6  calls 42:11,12        cc 47:19 48:8\n 90:11 99:12 102:7     41:8 47:4            100:14 101:17      CAM 10:1,4 25:17      cc'd 47:18\n 102:18 103:7        blew 12:3             Budget 13:22 14:19    34:8 71:20 73:15    cell 59:6\n 106:2 109:10        block 92:18           building 18:13 22:4   73:20,21 74:7,10    Center 25:6 60:19\n 111:5,9,17 112:4    blocking 33:16        built 61:3            74:12 75:3,7,21     certain 29:8 36:2\n 112:16,20 119:8     board 10:9,10         bunch 112:9           76:6,18 77:6,13       51:9,20 53:14\n 121:14 122:9          54:16               business 20:20        78:2,13,13 79:3       64:20 67:9 76:7,8\n 126:3               Bob 34:8 35:2,3        21:18 31:13,15,20    80:7 82:16 83:9       98:1 105:11\nbegan 56:3 98:13       63:7 71:3 80:3,15    31:21 32:4,8         83:11 84:9,15,20    certificate 53:11,15\nbeginning 28:14        80:16 85:11,17       43:14,20 44:13,17    85:4,15,16 87:1,2     128:1\n 76:17 82:10 98:13     93:21 98:11 99:3     45:7 49:8,11,13      92:9,11,15 93:20    certificates 53:14\n 121:9                 99:20 100:13         49:21 53:8,21,22     94:8,16 95:2 96:8     53:18\nbehalf 3:2,10 83:3     101:5,22 102:4,10    55:15 56:10 57:14    98:3,14 99:14       certified 6:16\n 83:5                  103:1,12 109:17      57:18 58:11,14,20    102:20 110:13       certify 128:4\nbelief 45:21 46:9      116:8,9,17 117:12    60:17 61:7 63:2      113:10,14,20        chairman 15:8\nbelieve 9:7 10:19      117:17,19 118:17     68:4 69:2,14         114:15,19 115:11    change 56:9,10\n 11:12 14:14 16:18     119:1,4,13,20        70:10 71:16 74:4     115:22 116:3          58:1 71:22 82:6\n 21:6 22:14,15         121:17,19 122:13     74:9,10,11,15        119:5                 129:19,19 131:8\n 24:13 28:12 29:22     123:3,8,13,18        76:2,20 79:4       cap 38:12             changed 11:2 16:17\n 30:3 32:2 35:1        124:1,16 125:10      83:16,18 85:9      capacity 14:3 17:3      16:17 92:19\n 36:20 40:17 41:9      125:15               86:8,9 89:20         71:14 76:10         changes 127:9\n 42:19 43:3,10       Bob's 74:22            97:13,21 98:3,20   Capital 24:18,19        129:17\n 49:17 50:15,21      bond 60:21,22          99:2,4,13,16         26:6 28:11,21       changing 124:8\n 51:8,19 53:19       book 30:9              100:4,6,10 101:8     29:17 31:5,7,14     characterized\n 54:22 57:10,21      borne 26:13            101:22 102:16,19     31:21 32:1,5,9        105:12\n 59:13 65:4,13       bottom 82:19 101:7     116:8,19 117:3       36:22 37:4,22       charge 47:4\n 70:4 75:10 77:6,8   Bovis 25:4             118:18,19,22         38:4 39:3,18,21     cheaper 118:9\n 78:12 83:19,22      box 67:11              122:4 123:14         40:16 41:19 42:4    check 77:2 84:2\n 84:1,11,21 85:11    boxed 95:11            124:18               42:9,15 43:12         95:5,7\n 85:12 86:5,11,13    boxes 92:22 93:14                           44:10 46:12,21      Cherouny 4:9 6:14\n 86:16 89:6 93:4     bragged 99:19                   C           48:16 49:11         chest 103:2\n 93:17 94:6,9,11     break 72:3            C 6:1               captive 59:5,6,18     Chicago 31:10\n 97:9 98:2 100:22    breaks 27:8           cadre 37:10           60:4,5 61:13        chosen 129:15\n 102:14,17 103:16    Brian 94:18           calendar 52:21        119:17,18,21        Chris 103:20\n 108:10,13,13        bring 20:9 101:15     California 49:18      120:20 121:7,11     civil 1:6 14:20 15:1\n 115:13,20 116:7       101:21                50:10,19,22 51:5    121:11                16:15,21 17:6\n 124:19 125:11       broader 35:3            51:15,18 52:1     captives 59:21          18:3\nbelieved 121:8       broke 73:14           call 28:1 40:11     car 12:2              claim 102:8\nbelongs 27:9         broker 74:6,7 75:2      48:10 123:13      card 52:13            claims 102:12\nbest 74:5              76:4,12,18 77:10    called 7:17 14:15   case 6:6,8 10:20      clarified 60:6\nbetter 118:9,10        78:14,16 83:7         44:19 45:10 48:4    11:14 12:12 93:22   clarifies 112:6\nbeyond 28:22           99:20 100:8           55:18 84:21 95:21   94:1 98:12 103:14   clarify 58:17 79:2\n\n\nEsquire Deposition Services                                          MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 33-4        Filed 06/21/2007      Page 38 of 54\n\n                                   Marialice Williams\n                                                                                                   Page 3\n\n  97:13,19 112:17       45:3 62:10 119:3      55:10,14 59:18      contract 101:10,13      15:20,21 33:7\nclear 35:15 49:6      communications          60:1,10 67:16       contribution 101:7      40:12 90:17\n  60:1                  29:16 30:17,22        103:18 104:8        conversation 20:4       129:22\nclearly 77:22           37:22 38:4,7          120:18                20:7 43:10 46:2,7   courthouse 98:9\nclerk 98:8              40:14,20 41:18      concepts 52:11          46:21 47:13         courtroom 40:12\nclient 123:6,7          42:3,8 44:9 54:18   concern 46:17           125:12              courts 15:15 17:10\nclients 24:16 25:19     55:3 56:14,19       conclusion 114:20     conversations         Cowherd 68:10\n  118:6                 60:13 61:19 63:17   conduit 50:8            46:13 97:1 119:13   co-brokerage 84:4\nclose 31:6,18 54:10     63:22 64:6 67:4       104:16,18           coordination 60:21      84:8,19 86:12\n  62:21 70:4 71:8       69:2 115:22 119:5   conduits 53:22        copy 75:10 77:1,7     Craig 100:7 102:2\nclosed 63:12 71:10      121:17 122:13         104:10                94:3 95:5 98:21       102:5\nclue 100:1            community 121:5       Conference 2:12         100:17 129:13,15    crash 110:2\ncoach 111:21 112:2    companies 25:7        confidentiality       Corporation 25:1      crashed 108:20\ncoaching 111:20         27:22 32:15 33:2      57:5 100:15 117:7   correct 9:12 10:1       109:6\ncoast 10:22 11:1        52:10 53:21 55:22   conflict 56:5 67:15     13:1 34:19 36:1     crashes 52:21\ncoat 93:1               56:2,21 58:10       conflicting 80:14       45:2,17 51:6 83:4     107:22 108:4\ncollateral 29:9         89:11               Connecticut 15:20       83:11 84:10 88:17   crazy 9:4\n  32:20               company 20:18         connection 75:22        88:18 92:1 96:13    create 68:16\nColumbia 1:2 2:18       50:15 53:11 55:18     94:16                 105:13 108:1        created 58:7 66:17\n  6:7 13:7,16 17:14     57:1,3,18 60:5,6    consent 66:8            110:3 127:8           85:10 100:5 104:8\n  22:8 61:1 119:16      66:1 74:22 76:13    considered 66:4       corrected 12:2        creating 98:17\n  120:8 128:20          78:1 85:11 86:7     consisted 32:20       correction 129:19     credit 41:2,5 44:14\ncome 26:4 27:17         87:16 88:10,14,15   constantly 30:10      corrections 127:10      50:4 52:13 56:4\n  33:3 38:11 59:1,7     104:15,15             56:11 62:15           129:18                56:12 59:1,6 63:5\n  104:12 106:6        compatibility         consulting 71:14      correspondence          66:18 67:17 68:8\n  124:6                 30:13               consumed 52:18          79:13                 68:8,18 69:10\ncoming 59:8           compiled 67:13        consummated 83:8      cost 28:4 59:3          116:14 120:3,21\ncomments 46:10        complaint 90:16         83:9                cost-effective 50:3   cried 108:21\n  48:18,22              91:7,7 93:22 94:2   contact 30:6 31:12    counsel 6:19 7:17     crisis 58:8\ncommercial 69:18        96:19 97:4,8,11       38:16 61:21 62:3      7:21 13:21 16:18    critical 119:22\n  70:6                  97:12,16 99:16        63:10 64:8,9 92:6     16:21 73:10         current 8:7 56:22\nCommission 15:7         101:21 102:21         110:12 113:2,8,19     111:17 112:12       currently 6:13 13:3\n  128:20                107:18 109:16         114:15 115:10,15      120:15 128:12,16      13:8 21:10,17\ncommissioner          complete 19:4         contacts 119:21         129:12                89:7 97:3\n  120:7,13,14           25:12 61:1 127:8      123:10,11           counsel's 40:4 41:3   customer 47:20\ncommissions 80:4      completed 129:20      contained 93:15         41:11\n  83:21 86:7,18       completely 75:8       contemplated 85:7     country 53:12 61:3             D\n  87:1                comply 91:17          contents 92:21        Countrywide 24:21     D 5:1 6:1\ncommodity 68:2        computer 52:20,21     context 110:20          49:14,19 50:2,12    daily 30:6,17 53:6\ncommon 76:19            107:22 108:4,19       111:2 113:11          50:17               Dallas 29:21\ncommunicated            108:22 109:6        continue 20:19        couple 8:22 9:1       Dan 41:14\n  39:18,20 57:7         110:1,9,12 113:1      74:3                  51:17               Dana 120:14\n  116:2                 113:2,17 114:7,13   continued 69:11       course 9:22 10:4      Daniels 3:3,8 7:11\ncommunication           114:14                74:19 99:2 121:12   court 1:1 6:7,17       7:11 12:15 26:19\n  29:2 30:4,19 31:3   concept 43:16         continuing 56:20        7:14 11:8 15:16      26:22 33:12 35:5\n\n\nEsquire Deposition Services                                             MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                   VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\f        Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 33-4         Filed 06/21/2007      Page 39 of 54\n\n                                  Marialice Williams\n                                                                                                  Page 4\n\n 39:8 72:1 79:16     decide 66:15          describe 41:7          discouraging 49:7      91:3,6,12,15\n 87:19 94:18 98:8    decided 104:16          107:10                 49:10                106:9 107:7\n 102:3,9 103:3,6     decision 50:13 51:5   described 34:13        discovered 55:5        109:14 115:6\n 105:18 111:3,7,13    51:9,13 60:7,8         42:18 107:9            98:18               documentation\n 111:21 112:3,12     decisions 54:9        describing 35:4        discovery 33:6         22:19 42:7 67:10\n 122:6 129:2,3       defaulting 67:22        75:20                discuss 20:13 50:11    98:1 107:9 115:14\nDanny 34:9 63:7      defect 11:22          description 34:22        65:22 66:6 117:6     125:20\ndate 6:11 29:11      Defendant 6:4           35:2,3                 120:11 123:8        documents 5:19\n 34:16 40:19 51:16   Defendants 1:11       designated 66:12       discussed 65:16        19:14,15,19 20:9\n 64:2,2 88:8          3:10 5:18 7:18,21    designer 18:12           116:17 122:17        23:1 40:10 75:9\n 108:14 113:15        73:10                desire 43:13,15          125:10,14            83:13 90:20 91:1\n 127:14 131:7,22     define 78:1           desired 130:3          discusses 34:11        91:11,14 92:5,8\ndated 5:8,12,14,16   definitely 65:13      desk 67:12             discussing 34:10       92:10,12,14,22\n 5:21 80:1 109:19     109:7                detail 62:20             65:20,22 117:19      93:4,11,18 94:7\ndates 53:3 108:3     delegated 105:20      determined 12:7          118:22 120:11,18     96:11,17 98:5\n 124:11              denied 97:13,21       develop 38:22            121:6                103:13 110:8\nDavid 16:16 41:13     99:16                developed 21:15        discussion 33:7        112:22 113:22\n 47:3,3,14,15        Department 14:11        33:4                   38:15 39:2 44:15     114:6,12 115:18\n 48:21                14:13 15:2 24:7,7    development 16:6         58:9 64:15 107:19   doing 20:20 30:7\nday 42:22 45:20      departure 20:21         30:8 32:14 38:21       116:9 117:12         44:3 46:15 49:7\n 52:6,7               46:5 59:20             43:3,16 52:8           118:16 126:7         49:11 71:7 74:9\ndays 52:18 121:21    depend 102:13           62:17                discussions 28:10      74:15 79:4 102:16\n 129:9               depending 41:3        dialogue 56:21           28:21 29:20 36:21    104:9 116:21\ndead 92:7            depends 105:3           74:20                  37:4,13 48:2         119:21\ndeal 19:20 38:19     deponent 127:3        difference 105:2         55:11 68:19 83:15   drawing 114:20\n 50:16 61:15 66:1     129:11,12,13,16      different 52:8,9,10      97:18 117:4         drive 109:2\n 66:4 68:1 70:4       129:18,20 130:1        52:11 70:13 72:2       121:13 122:2        driven 50:1\n 86:18 98:15,16      deposed 9:11,22         104:19,22 105:1        123:3,18 124:16     drop 102:7\n 100:4 104:21,22      10:5,12,14             106:3,18               125:3               duh 67:21\n 105:9 120:1         deposition 1:14 2:7   difficult 52:16 53:2   disparaging 48:17     duly 73:8 128:6\ndealer 12:1           5:6,20 6:3,8,15,18     70:12 98:10            48:22               DUS 24:18 26:10\ndealing 30:10         10:19 19:8,22        direct 36:4,7 49:5     dispute 18:12          26:12 27:4,11,13\n 46:11                20:13 26:17 33:21      76:15 77:20 81:18    district 1:1,2 2:17    27:15 31:15,20\ndeals 31:18 45:7      75:11 79:6,18          88:3                   6:7,7 13:7,15        34:14 35:17 37:19\n 62:21 63:12 70:7     80:21 87:6 90:9      directed 90:20           15:19 17:14 22:8     37:20 38:1,5,8\n 71:8,10 103:17       94:17,19 95:5,17     direction 128:9          61:1 90:17 119:16    39:4 44:13,21\n 104:6,7 117:4,6      96:2 102:11,13       directly 38:10 47:9      120:8 128:20         60:15 70:18\n 117:13,15,18         109:8,17,17,22         48:21 59:22 83:18    division 14:21 15:1    104:22 105:1,3,9\n 118:1,4              113:16 126:9,12      director 16:15           16:22 17:6 18:4      105:12,19 106:15\ndeath 95:11           128:3,6,10,14          49:17                  40:7                 107:11\nDeborah 1:22 2:15     129:6,8,8,11,15      directors 10:10        document 34:4         D.C 1:17 2:13 3:5\n 6:17 128:2 130:7     129:21 130:2,3       disagreement 67:7        75:15 76:3 79:22     3:14 4:3 6:11 8:9\nDecember 64:19        131:1,7              disclose 44:6 48:1       81:7,15,16 82:14     8:17 9:6 24:7\n 65:1,4,9            depositions 10:3      disclosed 67:14          86:14,15,22 87:9     129:4 131:2\ndecent 101:16         11:5 98:19             93:8                   87:13,14 90:13,18\n\n\nEsquire Deposition Services                                             MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                   VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 33-4       Filed 06/21/2007    Page 40 of 54\n\n                                     Marialice Williams\n                                                                                                   Page 5\n\n          E            errata 95:20            28:5 32:18          42:8,14 43:11,14       15:20\nE 5:1 6:1,1 73:1,1       127:11 129:14,18    experience 86:1       43:19,21 44:4,9     fee 22:7 23:6 59:10\nearlier 40:1 65:11       129:20,21 131:4     expertise 32:13       44:20 46:5 47:19    feel 111:1 125:21\neast 15:19             Esquire 3:8,19,20       74:21               48:1,10 50:6 53:1   feeling 125:16\neastern 15:19            3:21 4:6 6:15,18    Expires 128:20        54:18 55:6 57:7     felt 101:6\nebecker@omm.c...         129:2 131:1         explain 32:12         57:18 59:1,2,7,10   Fidelity 85:12\n  3:16                 essentially 69:6        35:14 48:10         59:19,22 60:9       Fidelity's 85:16\neditorial 129:17       establish 49:19       extended 28:22        61:5 62:8,11 63:7   field 62:18\neducated 99:21         estate 67:18          extent 46:14 67:7     63:8,15,18 65:16    file 88:20 89:2 95:8\neffort 95:1            estimate 11:15          74:18 89:11         65:18,21 66:7,12       95:15\nefforts 35:18          et 1:10 3:11 5:8,12   extremely 111:15      66:15,21 67:3,4,8   filed 90:16 93:22\nEighteen 15:3            129:6 131:6         Eye 2:11 3:13 6:10    67:9,16 69:13,16       109:16 129:22\neither 27:7,18         Evelyn 3:19 6:22      e-mail 5:7,11,15      70:3 73:19,21,22       130:3\n  40:22 44:13            8:3                   29:12 34:7,16,19    74:8,13 79:2,4      files 93:15 94:21\n  110:13 114:16        event 74:16             35:4,9 47:17,19     83:15,17 85:7,19       95:2\n  115:3 129:11         eventually 12:2         48:13 68:12 81:17   86:8 87:15,22       filing 88:22 89:7\n  130:2                everybody 86:3          108:15              88:8 90:17,19,22    finalized 107:19\neliminate 35:19        exact 37:8 40:19      e-mailed 47:22        91:15 92:12 93:19   financial 10:1,5\nElizabeth's 24:9         55:19 124:11                              94:1,4,8 96:11,17      25:17 34:8 71:20\n                       exactly 22:18 29:13             F           97:14,21 98:3,15       73:20,22 74:10,12\nemployed 128:12\n  128:16                 35:12 51:8 108:5    F 73:1                99:3,14,15,17          75:3 76:6 78:3\nemployee 128:15          115:2 125:8         face 53:10            100:1,2,8,14           80:8 82:17 85:4\nemployees 23:17        examination 5:3       facilitate 38:10      101:4,7,9,22           90:6 98:14 99:14\nemployment 14:21         7:17,21 73:10       facility 61:2 93:13   102:15,19,22           99:22 102:20\n  15:1,6 17:7          examined 7:19           93:19 94:8          103:1,19,22 104:9      116:3\nenables 53:13            73:8 127:6          fact 27:18 68:15      104:16 105:5,15     financially 128:17\nenhancement            example 18:8 44:2       99:1                106:6,17 107:1      financing 24:9 61:1\n  44:14 50:4 56:4        66:17 107:1         facts 11:14           110:13 113:3,10     find 32:18 33:1\n  56:13 59:2,7 68:8    excuse 71:22 72:1     fair 38:3 41:17,20    113:13,20 114:15       47:2 57:17 113:6\n  68:9,18 116:15         99:6 111:4 114:9      66:3 67:2 71:12     114:19 115:11,15       115:5\n  120:3,21             execution 61:14         117:11              115:22 116:10,18    finish 114:9\nensure 85:17,21          118:11              familiar 26:11,14     117:13 118:2,5,13   finished 97:17\n  86:6 87:15 129:17    exhibit 33:21 34:3      71:5 112:15         118:18,19 119:7     firm 6:15 100:11\nentered 88:7             35:7 75:11,14       family 95:11          121:18,20 122:14       100:11,13,15\nentire 62:1 95:12        79:6,10,18,22       Fannie 4:1 6:5 7:1    122:17,18,20,20     firms 32:14\nentirely 58:11           80:21 81:6 82:14      7:4,7,10 10:19,20   122:21,22 123:4     first 5:18 8:8,16\nentities 29:10 73:18     87:5,6 90:9,13        10:21 17:17 19:16   123:20 124:1,21        14:12 22:5 24:22\nentity 21:16 88:9        109:8,12 125:5        20:19,20 21:15      129:5 131:6            27:9 36:10 53:9\n  88:12                Exhibits 5:6,22         24:18 25:16 27:4 far 66:4 69:12 96:9       53:10 54:11,14,18\nentree 120:7           exist 20:17 21:10       27:12,14 28:4,5     116:3                  55:9 61:2 62:7\nEqual 15:6             existed 67:11           32:6,10 33:4      father 17:13,17          63:5 68:16 69:8\nequity 103:22          existing 21:8           34:14 35:11,16,21 father's 18:2            77:12,21 84:18\nEric 25:9 70:4,21      exists 21:7,9           38:7,9,15,20 39:6 favor 18:10              88:4 91:21\n  71:2,5,8 86:1        expenses 89:16,19       39:20 40:3,9,15   feasibility 121:7     fit 105:16\n                       expensive 12:9          40:21 41:19 42:3 federal 1:9 3:10       five 9:18 18:6 20:8\n\n\nEsquire Deposition Services                                            MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                  VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB         Document 33-4      Filed 06/21/2007    Page 41 of 54\n\n                                    Marialice Williams\n                                                                                                 Page 6\n\nflew 29:21 50:10,22      43:16 73:9 97:13    73:12,13 105:22    happy 101:4           121:6\n  51:4 52:1              110:12 113:2,8,19 goodness 24:21       hard 109:2           Howard's 67:11\nFlorida 59:3,11,15       114:15 115:10       25:21 57:8         Harley 3:3,8 7:11    Hoyes 74:1\nfly 50:19                128:14            governance 10:12      12:15 94:18 129:2   HUD 16:5,8\nfocusing 122:18                            government 14:9       129:3               Huebscher 5:10\nfollow 97:5                     G            15:13 22:8,20      harleydaniels@h...    7:2,4,7 55:9 75:17\nfollowed 130:2         G 6:1               Grace 7:1,4,7 55:9    3:7                  77:9 78:18 87:22\nfollows 7:20 73:9      general 11:12,18      75:17 87:22        Harris 16:8          hybrid 70:12\nforegoing 127:7          12:1 13:21 16:18    103:18             Hartsfield 5:16\n  128:3,5                16:21 40:4 53:5   grader 100:20         21:22 23:12 53:7              I\nforgot 25:18 40:1      generalized 31:16   graduated 14:10       83:1,2              idea 53:5 78:11\nform 44:14 50:9        generally 31:9,10   great 19:20 98:14    Hartsfield's 23:15     115:7,9\n  111:14 121:11          40:22 117:2         98:16 100:3        Harvey 21:22         ideas 87:15\nformal 71:21 73:17     gentleman 47:5        106:22              23:12 83:1          identification\nformalized 87:2        Gett 32:1           Greenwald 46:3       head 43:8 61:17        33:22 35:6 75:12\nformed 20:18 21:5      give 11:15 18:22    Griffith 4:6 7:9,9    120:16                79:7,19 80:22\nformer 120:12            33:11 104:13      ground 111:14        Health 24:8            87:7 90:10 109:9\nforms 29:9               106:22 118:10     group 38:13 105:15   hear 33:12 85:13     identified 88:15\nforth 62:15 68:12      given 11:4,7 100:3    107:15             heavily 52:19          100:13\n  88:8,10,13 89:21       101:8 111:3       Grove 5:16           held 2:8 6:9 31:9    identify 23:2 24:16\n  107:9                  113:22 123:21     Groves 34:9 63:7      31:10 126:7 129:9     52:3 75:15 82:13\nforward 45:20            127:9 128:11      Grundeman 3:20        130:1                 87:9\n  51:10 74:22          giving 19:4           7:3,3              help 112:7           immediately 8:14\n  120:22               go 15:4 18:21 26:22 Guarantee 24:22      helped 68:16           9:2 44:20 48:4\nfour 9:19 95:16,16       37:9,10,10 38:22 guess 40:10 83:19     helpful 55:6           109:4\n  96:4,5                 39:8 53:3 56:11     89:10              helping 125:17       important 40:3\nframe 28:13 29:19        59:11 65:21 72:2 guide 107:12          hereto 128:16        include 125:9\n  30:16 31:19 37:3       72:4 82:6 87:16                        Hispanic 65:13       including 98:17\n  37:12 38:6 45:15       95:10 99:7,8               H           hold 107:12          income 89:2,3\n  48:12 52:3 54:13       112:3 118:8,8,13 Haberkorn 68:10       holder 69:9          incorrect 98:4\n  56:18 61:18 63:21      124:4,10 125:12   Hal 49:15 50:11,15   holding 52:12,13     independent 47:8\n  78:17 79:11 118:3      126:3               51:7               home 22:5 91:22      indicate 6:20\nFrankly 111:3,4        going 8:4 28:5 29:4 Hampshire 9:6        Hommer 1:22 2:16     indicated 6:12\nFreddie 69:17,21         30:12 34:2 39:12 Hampton 120:12         6:17 128:2 130:7      46:12\nfree 111:1               51:10 53:19 54:8    120:13             honest 85:1          indicating 22:20\nfrequently 45:19         75:18 77:18 80:13 hand 34:2 79:9       honestly 124:2         51:22 86:22\nFriday 44:1              82:6 85:8 96:22     100:21             honoring 86:3          115:14\nfriend 18:10             97:2 98:3 100:5   handing 75:14        Hook 41:12           individual 26:9\n  123:13                 101:13 104:3,4      79:21 81:2,5       hope 116:20            117:9\nfront 35:4               107:1,3 111:5,9     90:12 109:11       hopping 66:2         individuals 27:20\nfulfilling 55:6          116:20,22 118:2   handle 41:15         Hospital 24:10         37:6 53:4\nfull 18:22 19:5 59:8     122:3             Hang 103:3           hour 42:22           industrial 60:22\n  126:1                Goldfrank 3:21 7:6 happened 47:18        hours 52:6,6,7       industry 30:14,15\nfully 102:14             7:6                 78:9               housing 16:5 55:7      58:9\nfurther 38:15          good 8:1,2 72:3     happens 86:19         104:1 120:19        inferior 102:6\n\n\nEsquire Deposition Services                                          MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB         Document 33-4        Filed 06/21/2007    Page 42 of 54\n\n                                    Marialice Williams\n                                                                                                   Page 7\n\ninform 55:4             115:3 128:17         Jones 5:7,13 34:8     70:19 77:2 78:8,9     123:2\ninformation 19:12     interference 102:8       63:7 71:3 80:3      78:9,17 80:14,16    lawsuits 12:16,18\n  19:13 53:1 67:10      102:12                 93:21 98:12 99:3    84:22 85:3,18         12:21\n  103:11 123:22       interior 18:12           99:20 100:13        86:2 87:3,3 89:13   lawyer 12:11,14\n  125:5               international 99:20      101:22 102:4,10     91:2 93:1,2,3,14      13:1 94:15 97:2\ninitial 98:12            100:8,10              103:1 109:18        93:21 94:2,20         101:5\ninitiated 59:19       introduce 6:19           116:8,9,17 117:12   95:4,7,21 96:9      lawyers 101:3\ninnuendo 49:4         investment 25:10         117:17,19 118:17    101:6 103:9 107:5   lay 28:6 32:19\ninstance 18:7            32:14 71:2 104:12     119:1,4,13,20       110:21 112:8          38:12,12 118:6\ninstances 105:17      invited 31:7             121:17,19 122:13    116:3,8,21 117:1    laying 26:8 29:6\ninstitution 69:5      involve 38:15 94:1       123:3,8,19 124:1    120:22 121:12         44:21 68:9\ninsurance 25:7        involved 12:18,20        124:17 125:10,15    122:4 123:15        learn 49:9\n  27:17,22 29:5          46:15 103:10        Judge 1:8             124:8,11 125:13     Lease 25:4 27:10\n  30:12,14 33:2       involving 10:12        Julia 92:6 94:20      125:13,14,18          27:16 29:20 30:5\n  34:12 41:15 44:4       50:16 54:11 60:3    June 22:14 85:1     knowledge 47:10         30:17 31:1 37:9\n  52:9,10,11 55:22       70:5                jurisdictions         96:7 107:20         led 98:2\n  56:2,21 57:1,3,17   issuance 60:21           119:19            knowledgeable         Lederer 94:18\n  58:8 59:5,18 60:4   issue 10:12 32:16      Justice 14:11,13      59:21 99:21,22      left 16:4 20:19 40:2\n  60:6 61:13 63:6        41:4 53:13 60:3       15:2              known 68:16 95:19       44:20 53:1 60:9\n  63:10 66:1,9,18        103:19 104:18                           Kyra 3:20 7:3           62:8 63:8,15,18\n  67:17 69:10 74:6    issued 60:22 69:21              K                                  66:20 67:3 70:3\n  74:17 76:19 83:7       70:1                Kalinsky 41:13               L              73:19,21 85:7\n  85:11 87:16 100:9   issues 29:8 30:10      Kathy 41:13         L 3:19                  99:15 100:6 101:9\n  100:19 103:21          30:11 56:5 110:14   Katrina 98:10       language 86:15          101:10 103:1,19\n  116:19 119:15,17       110:16 113:6,7,10     116:4               101:2               legal 6:16 93:15\n  119:18,22 120:7        114:17,18 115:3     keep 29:11 129:16 lapsed 22:9,17,21       legally 76:13\n  120:12,13,16,20     items 125:9            kept 85:8             23:3 24:3           legislative 16:7\n  121:11              i.e 129:19             key 103:6           large 33:4 67:6       lend 25:4 27:10,16\ninsure 28:1                                  kgrundeman@o...       96:12 102:13          29:20 30:5,17,22\ninsurer 63:4                    J              3:17              Larry 69:17 120:10      37:9 54:1\ninsurers 61:22        Jay 3:3,8 129:2,3      kicking 69:16         120:12              lender 24:18 27:11\n  67:18               Jeff 41:9              kind 54:3 70:12     Larson 1:22 2:15        27:13 28:4,6\nintelligence 46:4     job 1:21 73:20           86:3 100:18         128:2 130:7           60:16 70:18\nintelligent 95:13       104:2 131:7            101:10 118:10     law 3:3 9:20 13:12      105:10\nintend 64:13 97:5,7   John 1:8 121:4           122:5               14:7,10 15:22       lenders 26:10 33:3\n  97:10,12,16,19      Johns 103:20           knew 67:10 117:8      16:10 17:2,8,20       35:18 37:16,17,20\n  101:21 102:7,20     join 28:6              know 9:4 22:7,16      18:5 40:8,11 98:8     38:14 56:2 66:8\n  107:18 115:1        joint 74:7,16 75:2       25:14,14 26:1,11    129:3                 66:19,22 104:19\nintended 114:22         76:4 78:11 82:16       30:9 33:15,16,17 Lawch 7:2,5,8 41:1       105:15\nintent 97:3             83:3,10,12 84:13       33:17 35:12 46:14   45:9,15,22 46:9     lengthy 62:18\nintention 96:18       jointly 74:20 85:14      46:16 47:18 48:21   46:13,19,22 48:17   letter 5:9,13 74:9\ninterest 21:13 76:1     85:14                  49:20 50:13 51:2    49:1,10 99:18         74:13 75:16 76:16\n  116:14              Jonathan 4:6 7:9         51:3,10 53:5        106:11                77:8 78:10,18\ninterested 68:6       jonathan_griffit...      56:12 57:9 58:8   Lawch's 47:9            80:2,5,9 107:14\n  110:13 114:16         4:5                    64:3,19 65:3,5,5  lawsuit 122:22        let's 24:13 25:22\n\n\nEsquire Deposition Services                                            MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                  VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 33-4     Filed 06/21/2007     Page 43 of 54\n\n                                     Marialice Williams\n                                                                                                Page 8\n\n   29:21 31:22 72:4      104:14 105:3,4,11   17:17 19:16 20:19   Mae's 34:14 90:19    MCRI 69:15\n   98:7 106:22 108:8     105:13,16 106:4,5   20:20 21:15 24:18    90:22 91:15 101:7   mean 9:16 36:5\n   111:7 126:3           106:13,15,19,20     25:16 27:4,12,14    major 11:22 52:22     37:15 38:17 47:19\nlevel 27:6,9,12,19       107:2,2,3,8,10,13   28:4,6 32:6,10       53:20 70:1 107:20    48:6,6,7,8 57:11\n   28:3,8 30:15        loan-related 121:3    33:5 35:11,16,21     122:21               58:14,18 64:20\nLevin 55:8             locate 95:1           38:7,9,15,20 39:6   making 43:18          66:11 78:5 88:22\nlicensed 13:3 76:12    long 8:10,18 9:8      39:20 40:3,9,15      67:22 85:19          105:19 112:7,21\n   83:8                  11:13 14:2,22       40:21 41:19 42:3     111:17               113:4 124:9\nlife 9:16                15:9 17:19,21       42:8,14 43:11,14    management 13:21     meaning 47:8\nlimitations 53:16        20:7 28:10 45:3,6   43:19,21 44:4,9      14:19 15:18         means 33:9 105:20\nlimited 54:7 58:11       45:6 62:19          44:20 46:6 47:19    manner 129:17        medication 19:3\n   67:6 83:12 84:13    longer 21:7 28:17     48:1,10 50:6 53:2   March 1:16 2:3       meet 20:2,3 29:22\nline 72:2 101:7          28:18 68:3 93:16    54:18 55:6 57:7      6:11 52:17 109:19    50:10 59:4 68:11\n   110:1,7 129:19,19     130:3               57:18 59:1,2,8,10    113:16 131:7         74:20\n   131:8               look 37:17 44:2       59:19,22 60:9       Marialice 1:5,15     meeting 31:8 57:1\nlines 117:2              56:11 63:9 75:6     61:5 62:8,11 63:7    2:7 3:2 5:20 6:4     59:14\nlist 25:12               77:16 110:21        63:8,15,18 65:17     7:12,16 8:6 73:6    members 10:9\nlisten 76:7              124:10 125:19       65:18,21 66:7,12     77:6 78:14 80:3     Mental 24:8\nlisting 129:18         looked 53:18          66:15,21 67:3,4,8    84:9,14,20 87:21    message 37:8 66:13\nlitigation 10:1,5        100:20 123:12       67:9,16 69:13,16     102:16 103:4        met 51:7 69:10\n   12:5 90:20 91:1     looking 32:15         70:3 73:19,21,22     105:18 111:22        75:17\n   92:9,11,15 94:16      37:11 43:20 50:3    74:8,14 79:2,4       112:3 127:5 129:5   method 129:15\n   95:2 96:8             58:22 68:7 77:3     83:15,17 85:7,19     129:6 131:5,6       Metropolitan 25:9\nlittle 8:12 18:19        83:14 118:6,7       86:8 87:15,22       marked 33:22 34:3     69:3,5,8 70:5,16\n   33:11 50:6 70:11    looks 82:2            88:8 90:17 92:13     35:6 75:12 79:7      86:2\n   86:17               lost 87:19            93:20 94:1,4,8       79:10,19,22 80:22   Mexico 11:11\nlive 8:18 9:8          lot 25:12 29:8        96:11,17 97:14,21    81:5,19 82:14        17:16\nlived 8:10,20            32:17 62:20 67:15   98:3,15 99:3,14      87:5,7 90:10,12     mezzanine 34:13\nliving 43:18             70:6 92:10,18       99:15,17 100:1,2     109:9,12 125:7      Michael 94:17\nLiz 68:9                 96:14 104:3 105:3   100:9,14 101:4,9    market 49:22 50:1    Miles 41:13\nLLC 20:16 21:9           119:12 122:21       101:22 102:15,20     67:19               mind 129:16\n   22:2,17,21 23:2,6     123:1,9             103:1,2,19,22       marketing 75:1       mine 8:21 88:14\n   23:11 24:1,3,15     lots 101:17           104:9,16 105:5,15    101:14              mink 93:1\n   24:15 36:1,3,5,11   Lou 74:1              106:6,17 107:1      marketplace 29:4     minutes 20:8\n   36:15,20 71:20      lower 6:12            110:13 113:3,10      52:15 68:17         mischaracterize\n   73:16 75:4 77:12    loyal 123:14          113:14,20 114:15     118:15               78:6\n   77:13 78:2 88:17    lunch 31:22 72:3      114:19 115:11,15    markets 99:22        mischaracterized\n   88:20 89:4,8,16       73:14               115:22 116:10,18    Marsh 25:2 57:15      77:19\n   90:4                                      117:14 118:2,5,13    57:16,20 58:2       mischaracterizes\nLLP 2:10 3:12                  M             118:18,19 119:7     Marshall 25:6         77:9\nloan 10:22 27:7        Mac 25:2 57:15,16     121:18,20 122:14     60:18               misrepresent 77:14\n   106:9 120:20         57:20 58:2 69:17     122:17,19,20,20     Martha's 116:6       mission 55:7\nloans 26:9,12 34:15     69:21                122:21,22 123:4     matter 6:5 10:13     Mississippi 98:8\n   35:20 52:12,13      Mae 4:1 6:5 7:1,4,7   123:20 124:2,21     matters 10:6,8,15     103:14\n   59:9 69:19,19        7:10 10:19,20,21     129:5 131:6          18:15 41:16         misstatement\n\n\nEsquire Deposition Services                                           MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                 VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 33-4     Filed 06/21/2007       Page 44 of 54\n\n                                   Marialice Williams\n                                                                                                Page 9\n\n 76:22                multi 104:19       negotiating 106:13    129:19              operating 89:16\nmistakenly 52:19      multi-family 10:20 negotiation 32:1     N.W 2:11 3:4,13      opportunity 15:7\nmitigation 20:15       35:20 40:6 49:16   58:9                 4:2 129:3             64:12 77:22\n 23:11 36:1,11,15      49:17,19 50:13    neither 128:11                            opposed 105:5\n 36:18,19 55:21        51:6 63:5 66:18   nervous 9:4                    O          options 37:17 68:7\n 71:19 73:16 75:4      67:17 69:9 70:7,9 Network 10:11        O 6:1 73:1,1,1         118:8\n 76:5,11 78:2 80:7     74:3 107:12       never 12:1 43:13     object 111:8,10,11 ordained 105:15\n 80:11 82:17 83:4     mutual 5:17 87:10   43:14 66:4,7,10       111:12,13          order 74:10 82:3\n 83:6 88:16,19         87:17 88:4,6       66:10 80:2,9 83:8   objection 111:10       85:16 95:12\n 89:3,8,9,15 90:1,3   Myers 2:10 3:12     83:10                 111:18             organization 121:5\n 90:7                  6:10 19:14        new 9:5 11:11        obtained 98:9        organizations\nmodify 56:12                              17:16 18:13 24:9    occasional 18:7        121:6\nmoment 39:9                    N          55:14 56:3,12       occur 24:11          original 93:22 94:1\nmoney 12:4 85:19      N 5:1 6:1 73:1,1,1  62:9 65:3 68:11     occurred 110:2         129:8,21 130:1\n 98:15                name 6:14,22 8:3,5  68:12 71:4 89:13    October 128:21       originated 26:10\nmonth 22:13 109:5      11:2 25:22 41:8,9  101:20 110:9,12     offered 73:20          106:6,14,15,21\nmonths 8:13 15:3       41:9,14 47:1,4     112:22 113:2,17     office 13:21 14:18     107:5\n 15:10 17:5,22         55:19 58:20 65:14  114:7,13,14           15:15 16:15 17:10 originating 30:12\n 18:1,3 40:5 45:5      68:10 88:9,12      119:16                17:15,18,20 18:2 other's 76:2\n 51:8,18 64:7          89:22 90:2 120:15 newest 119:17,18       22:4,5 40:4 41:2,3 Ott 99:18 100:8,17\nMorgan 25:8 68:5       131:5,6           Newman 5:11            41:5,11 67:11        102:2,5\n 68:6,14,15,20        named 68:17         40:22 55:8 75:18      89:19 91:19,20     outcome 128:18\n 70:2,15 104:13       names 11:3 26:3    newsletter 29:12       95:10,12 108:7     outset 125:11\nmorning 8:1,2          61:16 117:16,20    60:7                  129:11             outside 14:6 69:21\nmortgage 1:9 3:11     Narassiman 45:10 nice 45:12             officer 128:2        out-of-order 82:2\n 24:17,20 25:5         46:3              Noble 5:8 34:8       officers 23:10       overall 9:16\n 26:6 27:10,16        narrow 50:2         66:13               offices 2:8 3:3 6:9  overheard 46:2,8\n 28:11,21 29:16       National 1:9 3:10  non-disclosure         22:3 129:3         owner 60:4\n 30:15 32:15 35:20     18:11              5:17 87:10,18       oh 9:5,15 10:18      ownership 76:1\n 37:9 44:18,19        nature 13:18 26:5   88:5,6                13:20 24:21 25:21 O'Melveny 2:10\n 45:4,8 46:12,20       31:4 32:4,8 40:13 Northwest 6:10 8:8     39:22 41:13 51:2     3:12 6:9 19:13\n 48:16 49:10 58:21     44:8 49:6,13 55:2  8:16 9:6 91:21        57:8 59:17 60:15\n 58:22 59:15 60:13     55:15 56:8 57:14   92:17 131:1           64:17 81:13 91:2            P\n 69:9 70:12 104:14     60:3,17 61:7 63:2 notary 2:17 7:19       91:8 94:13 106:22 P 6:1\n 120:19 121:3          68:4 69:1 77:10    128:1,19              113:21 117:21      Pacifica 10:11\nmortgages 26:9         115:21 122:1,12   noted 89:11          Okay 72:4 103:5      package 59:8\n 54:2 68:2,3           122:16            notice 2:15 92:20      111:7,13 112:21    page 5:3,6 36:10\n 104:11,20            NCRC 121:4         notifying 108:15       113:15 122:12        81:19 82:2,15,19\nmortgage-backed       necessarily 107:5  notion 105:21        old 93:2               109:22 110:6,6\n 32:21 54:6 67:20     necessary 94:5     number 6:3,8         OMB 15:5 16:14         129:18,19 131:8\nMotors 11:12,18        111:2 129:18       19:11,12 21:12      once 60:8 63:8       pages 1:19 95:17\n 12:1                 need 38:14 111:21   26:10 68:13 82:5      100:6                96:4,5 127:7\nmove 22:10 51:10       112:1 122:10       82:7,10 119:15      ongoing 37:18 43:1 paid 18:16,18,18\n 74:22 120:21         negotiate 107:7     125:15              oops 75:6              22:6 23:5 85:17\nmoved 8:22 22:3,4     negotiated 106:12  numbers 125:8        opened 55:17         paper 95:16\n\n\nEsquire Deposition Services                                         MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                               VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB         Document 33-4        Filed 06/21/2007     Page 45 of 54\n\n                                    Marialice Williams\n                                                                                                  Page 10\n\npapers 33:7           pervasive 52:15         118:22 124:1         procedures 100:3     provide 50:3 56:4,5\nparagraph 76:16       phone 20:4 42:11       Potter 49:15 50:11    process 62:19          67:9 125:4 129:13\n 77:21 88:4             42:12                practice 13:4,9,12    processes 100:2      provided 19:13\nparagraphs 83:20      Pinnacle 25:5           13:19,22 14:22       procure 24:8           75:10 103:11\npari 28:2               58:21,22 59:4,15      16:10 17:15          produced 19:15         129:15\npart 29:2 33:4 57:9     60:13 121:1          practiced 14:7 18:5    92:13 96:12,17      providing 34:12\n 96:12 98:10            125:13                18:7                  115:19                59:6\n 102:13               place 6:6 72:3 92:4    practices 106:17      product 21:14        public 2:17 98:11\nparticular 81:17        92:5,22 117:8        practicing 13:15       27:15 30:7 32:13      128:1,19\nparties 26:13,14      places 67:1             15:22 17:2,6,8        38:21,22 43:2       purchased 27:8\n 87:17 128:13,16      Plaintiff 1:7 3:2       40:8,11               44:4 52:7 55:5        105:4,5\npartner 76:9            7:12                 precisely 52:4         62:17 66:16 98:17   purported 100:18\nparty 6:20 12:21      please 6:19 7:14        78:21                 100:4 118:10        purpose 87:13,14\n 94:5                   8:5 48:1 111:19      preclude 19:4         production 5:19        129:16\npassu 28:2              112:4                predetermined          90:19,22 91:10      Pursuant 2:15\nPatricia 16:7         PNC 107:2               54:8                 products 33:3        pursue 20:19 21:14\nPaul 41:12            point 45:19 60:20      preferred 27:22       Professional 2:16      44:21 66:21\nPause 82:8 99:9         74:18 85:10          premier 105:14        profit 50:7          pursuing 26:7\npay 71:11 101:14        111:20               prepare 19:7,21       program 49:20          38:18 43:13,18\npaying 38:21 59:10    policy 41:2,5           29:3 129:18           50:9 67:1 103:22      47:11 116:14\npayroll 90:4            100:19,22,22         present 4:8 37:14      104:1,8 107:11,16   put 25:18 26:3 36:5\npeople 18:9 21:14     pool 54:4 69:20         96:18 119:6          project 24:7 47:7      48:8 67:13 111:2\n 26:2 29:11 30:7        104:14                121:16 122:15        promises 43:18       putting 93:11\n 32:17,18 37:11       pools 26:8 104:17       123:5,18             properties 70:8      p.m 73:2 126:13\n 38:13 42:17,20         104:19               presentation 85:13    property 8:21\n 43:4,4,5,19 52:12    pops 65:12             president 23:14,16     67:21                        Q\n 52:13 54:1 59:20     popular 54:2            74:2                 proportion 52:22     qualification 102:6\n 74:21 101:9,14       portfolio 30:11        pretty 18:15 94:3     proposal 33:8,14     question 26:19\n 103:15 107:15          70:14                 108:16,17 123:8       35:11,15,22 36:14    40:2 46:4 62:16\n 116:13 117:17        portfolios 32:17       previous 33:6          36:17 37:1,5,19      77:15 78:6 84:17\n 121:2                  43:22                previously 37:7        38:1,5,8 39:4        84:18 111:14\nperceived 29:9        portion 6:12 28:7       73:8 96:10 107:21     55:12 56:16 58:4     112:11 114:10\nperfectly 81:14         32:21 98:20          primary 27:19          58:16,18,19 59:16    119:9 122:10\nperformed 15:18       position 14:6,12,17    prior 8:15 9:3         60:14 61:12,20       124:11\nperiod 62:1             15:4,9,12 16:1,3,4    20:21 46:5 57:8       62:4,6 63:19 64:1   questions 8:4 18:20\nperiodically 68:11      16:11,13              59:19 79:3 83:15      64:10,16,17 65:7     97:1 125:22\npermit 100:9          possession 92:14        84:17 105:16          66:10 68:21 70:17   quick 99:7\nperson 18:9 21:11     possibility 26:7        106:8 108:8           71:1,6,15           quit 104:2\n 21:20 47:3,9,10        44:3,21 59:4         priority 66:22        proposals 117:5      quite 25:8 56:21\n 47:16,22 48:5,19       60:11 103:21         private 13:22          119:15 123:19        69:4\n 49:16 60:20 102:6    possible 68:7          probably 30:18         124:18 125:1        quote/unquote\n 120:1                possibly 44:4           45:20 47:2 49:20     proposed 82:16        32:20 99:19\npersonal 90:2         post 32:19              56:1 58:6 64:18      proprietorship\n 122:16               potential 61:13         76:22 80:10,12        21:19                        R\npertaining 29:8         68:12 71:4 118:19     119:13               proscribed 106:17    R 6:1 73:1\n\n\nEsquire Deposition Services                                             MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                   VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 33-4        Filed 06/21/2007      Page 46 of 54\n\n                                   Marialice Williams\n                                                                                                  Page 11\n\nrace 97:14,22 99:17   recognize 34:3 81:7   region 49:18            41:8 42:2,5,22      required 59:9 79:2\nradio 10:11             81:10,12,15,16,17   Registered 2:16         47:1 55:19 62:2     research 27:21\nraise 64:12,13          90:13,18,21         regulates 22:8          64:18 65:14,19      residence 9:2\n  102:21                109:14,15           regulations 56:7        78:22 80:20 81:13   residential 69:19\nraised 46:4           recollection 28:20    regulatory 29:10        88:21 93:21 95:9    respect 29:5 56:5\nran 71:17 106:11        29:15 30:21 35:10     29:10 60:3            95:14 110:17          61:12 75:22 97:15\nrate 92:19              36:13 42:13 43:6    reinsurance 61:13       117:21 119:2          97:20 104:10\nrated 100:13            76:4 79:11 93:10      119:20                120:14 124:2          107:17 110:16\nrating 120:2,3,4        124:16 126:1        reinsurer 120:1,2       125:2               responded 33:17\nreaching 28:2         record 8:5 21:2       reinsurers 25:8       remembered 65:11      responding 47:20\nread 20:22 21:2         35:14 39:9,12,15      52:11 61:22         remembering           response 91:15\n  110:7,10 111:1        42:12 58:17 72:5    relate 32:6,10          41:22 75:8          responsible 43:17\n  113:9 119:8,10        72:7 73:4 82:6,11     36:22 55:11 56:15   REMIC 32:22 54:7      result 12:5 19:14\n  122:10 127:6          98:11,11,22 99:7      59:15 63:18 68:20     69:20               resume 17:12\n  129:11                99:8,11 102:10        70:16,22 116:10     REMICs 53:17          resurrect 117:1\nreading 91:9 130:2      111:11 119:10       related 37:5,19       remove 54:3           resurrected 63:8\n  130:3                 124:6 125:13          44:12 59:17 62:3    Rent 89:21            retained 5:22\nreads 6:13 77:5         126:4,6,7 128:10      92:8,14 93:19       rental 8:21           retrieve 53:1 109:1\nreal 67:18 99:7       records 51:22           94:8 115:4 117:13   renting 59:5          return 89:2\nrealize 68:2            93:15 98:22           118:2,4,18 122:14   repeated 45:18        returns 88:20 89:7\nreally 9:20 22:18       124:10                128:12              replace 54:4            89:13\n  34:12 39:5,22       Red 24:17 26:6        relates 120:4           108:22              reveal 117:16,20\n  65:18,19 78:21        27:10,16 28:11,21   relating 37:22 38:5   replacement 109:3     revenue 60:22\n  93:6 95:6 97:17       29:16 37:9 46:11      39:3 40:15 63:22    Reported 1:22         review 19:18 96:16\n  100:2                 46:20 48:16 49:10     65:16 71:14 95:2    reporter 2:16 5:22      105:17 129:9,16\nreason 18:21 46:16    reduced 128:8           96:7 116:17           6:17 7:14 21:2        129:16\n  73:21 74:4 93:17    refer 112:14            121:17 123:4,19       119:10              reviewed 19:11,20\n  94:6 102:14         reference 112:13        124:1,17            represent 6:21 7:1      40:10 96:11\nrecall 9:15 11:6      referred 45:22        relationship 31:5,6     12:11               revise 129:17\n  22:18 23:7,9          111:15                46:18 47:8 63:9     representation        Rhoda 40:22 55:8\n  25:14,19 31:3       referring 21:21         69:12 71:19,21        117:9                 75:18\n  38:2 39:3,22          48:20 78:8 81:3       73:15,17 74:5,19    representations       Richard 7:2,5,8\n  40:14,17 41:14,18     86:16 95:19 98:5      78:1 79:3 85:15       18:17                 41:1 45:9 46:19\n  41:21 45:5 56:1       110:15 114:19         85:16               represented 18:10       99:18 106:11\n  61:16 62:5 64:15      115:8               relationships 25:13     95:13 98:20         right 11:6 33:18\n  65:7,10,20 81:11    refers 113:13         relative 128:15       representing 7:4,7      47:1 77:3 95:10\n  108:5 120:8         reflected 85:6        relied 52:19          represents 104:14       109:13 117:21\nrecalled 73:7         refresh 35:10 36:13   relief 37:11            121:5                 119:2 124:3\nrecapture 53:3          76:3 79:10          reluctant 80:18,18    request 19:14           125:22\nrecast 102:5          refused 67:9          rely 50:5 59:10         90:19,22 91:10      rights 14:20 15:1\nreceive 12:4 86:7     regarding 10:20       relying 59:2          requested 21:3          16:15,22 17:6\nreceived 108:15         30:11 38:7 39:20    remain 64:6             119:11 125:5          18:3\n  110:11 113:1          41:19 42:4,9,15     remember 9:5            129:8               ripped 53:22\n  114:14                43:11 44:10 62:11     10:17,18 18:14      requests 5:18 91:15   risk 20:15 23:10\nRecess 39:13 72:8       64:10,15              30:1 33:10 39:7       125:8                 26:8,12 27:6,8,9\n\n\nEsquire Deposition Services                                             MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                   VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB       Document 33-4          Filed 06/21/2007     Page 47 of 54\n\n                                  Marialice Williams\n                                                                                                  Page 12\n\n  27:12,19 28:1,3,8    113:9 114:5,11,21   seek 56:3                120:16              special 15:7\n  29:6,6 32:16,19    says 77:22 83:20      seen 89:12 91:3,12     sign 80:11,18,19,19   specialist 6:16\n  34:14 35:19,22       86:17 88:6 113:5      98:19                  129:11              specific 29:16\n  36:11,15,17,19       125:13              sell 50:7              signatory 88:1          30:22 31:3 42:2\n  38:12 43:22 44:22  scenario 81:13        selling 35:19          signature 82:20,22      43:9 51:15 53:3,4\n  55:20,21 63:5      schedule 14:16        send 37:8 95:4           126:11 127:14         58:10 62:13 64:4\n  66:18 67:17 68:9   school 14:10          senior 16:7 74:2         129:9 131:22          102:19 117:3,4,4\n  69:10 71:19 73:16  screen 6:13           sense 27:2 71:22       signatures 86:10        117:6,13,15,16,18\n  75:3 76:5,11 78:2  search 91:14,18         100:7                  86:12                 118:1,17,21\n  80:7,11 82:17        92:3 95:14          sent 79:14 92:10       signed 74:7 80:2,9      123:19 124:12,18\n  83:3,5 88:16,19    searched 91:16          116:2                  83:5 84:1 85:22     specifically 31:2\n  89:3,7,9,15,22       92:4                sentence 76:17           127:11 129:20,21      41:15 42:5 43:21\n  90:3,7 118:7       seasoned 106:8          77:21 113:5,11       significant 101:6       49:4 51:3 66:19\nRMS 22:16 23:2,19    second 3:4 28:3       separate 14:16         signing 83:2,19         116:16\n  23:22 24:3,6,14      76:17 129:3         separately 84:12         130:3               specified 107:14\n  24:16,17 25:20     secondary 27:19       September 57:11        simply 83:20          split 26:13\n  31:4 55:12 56:15     28:7                  58:7                 sincerely 48:5        spoke 40:22 41:1,2\n  61:8 68:5 75:21    Secretary 16:8        serve 14:2               130:5                 41:22 42:20 43:3\n  76:9,18 77:12      section 14:21 15:2    Services 6:15,18       single 71:4 100:15      48:21 55:7,8 65:4\n  78:2,8,13,15 79:3    17:7 55:18 106:10     76:6 78:3 82:17      single-family 49:21     65:5,6 116:7\n  88:14                106:12                131:1                sit 124:15              119:14\nRob 55:8             securities 32:21,22   servicing 105:21       sitting 25:15 115:6   spoken 42:14,21\nRobert 4:9 6:14        53:16 56:8 69:20    set 5:18 80:5 88:8,9     124:13 125:21         96:20\nRoberts 16:8           120:4                 88:13 106:16         situation 47:12       spreads 50:2\nrole 104:17          securitization        sgoldfrank@om...       six 9:10 40:5         St 24:9\nroom 2:12 120:17       10:21 31:17 50:5      3:18                 size 105:2            staff 49:16 59:22\nRosenfield 25:10       52:14 62:18 105:6   share 83:21 86:18      small 69:17 70:7      standard 70:9\n  70:4,22 71:2,9,13    105:6,7,8 120:20      87:1                   86:5                  106:16\n  86:2               securitize 69:18      shared 27:12 28:3      smaller 53:21         standards 100:16\nRPR 1:22 128:2         70:14                 85:18                sold 92:20              107:6\n  130:7              securitized 27:7      sharing 80:4           sole 21:19 117:9      Stanley 25:8 68:5,6\nrules 56:9             105:6               sheet 127:11           solely 43:17            68:14,15,20 70:2\n                     securitizing 35:20      129:14,18,20,21      solutions 32:16         104:13\n         S             104:11                131:4                somebody's 67:12      start 69:7 112:8\nS 6:1 73:1,1,1       security 54:6 67:20   sheets 95:16,20        someplace 31:10       started 62:8\nsabotage 48:7          104:18              Shekar 45:10 46:3      sorry 13:20 14:1      Starting 109:22\nSarah 3:21 7:6       see 24:13 25:22         49:5                   17:11 26:16 32:7      110:6\nsave 112:13            26:2 29:21 31:22    shelf 69:22              35:5 39:19 70:16    state 8:5 102:9\nsavings 10:22 11:1     34:5 36:3,9 66:11   shop 62:16               81:6 84:16 87:19    stated 37:7 103:12\n  25:9 69:3,5,8 70:5   78:4 81:20 82:20    short 24:20 25:13        91:8 95:3 103:2     statement 45:16\n  70:16                85:2 86:9 88:5      show 21:13 42:8          112:19                76:21 110:18\nsaw 62:7 85:20         95:6 98:7 105:3       78:11 87:4           source 52:20            111:15\n  94:2 98:1 100:17     108:9 109:15        shut 57:10             speak 59:21           statements 90:7\nsaying 42:19 58:3      111:7 112:7,10      Sid 32:1               speaking 111:10,18    states 1:1 6:6 76:18\n  74:14 75:21 86:4 seeing 81:11 91:10      side 30:13 105:9         116:13 117:2          100:12\n\n\nEsquire Deposition Services                                             MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                   VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 33-4      Filed 06/21/2007      Page 48 of 54\n\n                                   Marialice Williams\n                                                                                                Page 13\n\nstation 10:11         sued 10:11          Taylor 121:4            42:16 46:17 48:14     77:15 78:17 79:11\nstatus 22:16,20       suit 11:11          telephone 120:10        48:20 58:6 62:6       80:13 82:4,9\n  23:2 24:3           Suite 131:2         telephones 89:21        64:22 67:6 70:1       85:14 86:20 89:12\nstayed 31:11          summer 30:2 78:20   television 6:13         75:6,7,9,19 76:14     92:19 99:8,10\nstenotype 128:8         108:17 113:18     tell 29:13 33:19,19     76:14 77:4,4,5,7      100:16 110:11\nstep 104:16             115:12 116:7        40:1,18 44:8,11       77:11,14,18 78:7      112:13 113:1,17\nsteps 130:2             119:6 121:16        48:17 51:15 57:4      78:7,13 89:1          114:14 118:2\nSteve 34:8 66:13        122:14 123:4,17     94:13 102:11          92:16 104:3           121:8 123:15\nStockman 16:16          124:17              108:6 113:7 116:5     108:16 111:2          126:5,8 129:8\nstop 21:8             summertime            116:16                113:13                130:1\nstopped 22:1 36:6       108:11            telling 80:14,16,17   thinking 10:16        times 9:14,18,19\n  43:13,15 45:13      supplied 115:13       83:16 114:3,4         65:2                  18:4 50:22 69:11\n  58:11               Supreme 15:15       tentative 60:10       third 76:16 100:20      124:22\nstorage 92:17 93:5    sure 39:10 55:22    tenure 69:12          thirty 129:9          title 16:17,19,20\n  93:13,19 94:7         67:7 84:22 89:1   term 33:9,13          thought 10:22           23:13,15\nstory 89:14             94:3 108:16,17    termination 106:9       38:14 43:17 55:5    titles 16:17\nStrategists 20:16       124:4             test 71:3               74:1 85:20 104:4    today 8:4 19:1,5,8\n  23:11 36:1,11,15    survive 102:12      testified 7:20 10:4     123:13,14             20:10 124:15\n  36:20 71:20 73:16   swear 7:14            12:17 73:9 89:6     three 8:13 9:18,18    today's 6:11 126:9\n  75:4 76:6,11 78:2   Swiss 25:1 55:16      96:10 107:22          24:12 53:11 83:20   told 45:10 47:17\n  80:7,12 82:18         56:15 57:7,9        114:1,4               106:8                 49:1 75:18 100:5\n  83:4,6 88:17,19     sworn 7:19 73:8     testify 11:14 111:6   three-paragraph         101:12 102:15\n  89:4,8,10,15 90:1     128:6               114:12                86:17,22            Tom 120:11,12,13\n  90:3,7                                  testimony 11:4,7      thriving 67:19        ton 104:4\nStreet 2:11 3:4,13              T           19:1,5 84:3,12      Thurgood 25:6         top 36:8 61:17\n  6:10 8:8,16 22:6    T 73:1                86:21 95:22           60:18               tortious 102:8,11\n  91:21 92:17 93:5    take 43:21 87:15      113:12 127:7,9      Tim 24:6 59:12        totally 100:1\n  93:13,18 94:7         102:10              128:5,7,10            67:11               track 87:20\n  104:10 129:3        taken 6:4 95:8      theory 71:4           time 6:12 8:20 9:1    tranche 34:13\n  131:1                 128:4,7,14        thick 45:14             11:13 13:11,16      transaction 63:6\nstructure 26:12       takes 62:19         thing 37:18 45:12       14:7 16:9 17:8,14     83:22 119:22\n  34:11 53:13,15      talk 41:6,10 46:20    52:17 54:3 61:11      17:14 23:5 24:14    transactions 27:4\n  68:18 69:15 105:2     58:2 65:8 68:11     86:17 96:6 110:21     24:15,20 27:14        31:17 54:10 68:13\nstructures 71:5         74:20 118:12,13     122:5                 28:13 29:3,3,14       68:14 102:22\nstudies 15:19         talked 40:21 116:3 things 29:4 46:15        29:19 30:16,18        103:8 106:12\nstuff 74:17 85:20       121:19 122:20,22    71:17 75:20 93:2      31:19 37:3,8,12       115:16 124:2\n  92:22 93:2 116:21     123:6 124:12        93:16 101:17          37:14,21 38:6       transcript 129:8,12\nstupid 45:11          talking 35:13 73:15   115:16 116:2          39:11,14,17,19        129:13,16,21\nsubmit 105:16           110:1               121:3 124:12          41:21,22 42:22        130:1,2\nsubsequently          tall 47:5             125:7,15              44:7 45:15 48:12    transcription 127:8\n  129:21              tape 6:2 82:5,7,10  think 8:22 9:10,19      52:3 54:13 55:21    transcripts 96:2\nsubstantial 99:1      tapes 85:20           11:1,2 12:7 14:15     56:18 57:1,6 58:7   transferred 40:6\nsubstantive 112:10    task 129:10           15:11 18:8 22:6       61:18 62:7,19       traveling 51:18\nsuddenly 56:1         Tawa 103:21           22:12 23:4 25:16      63:21 64:14 65:15     92:18\nsue 11:18             tax 88:20 89:2,7      25:18 40:5 42:10      69:4,16 72:6 73:3   tried 31:15,16\n\n\nEsquire Deposition Services                                           MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                 VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB            Document 33-4      Filed 06/21/2007     Page 49 of 54\n\n                                    Marialice Williams\n                                                                                                   Page 14\n\ntrip 65:2             understand 33:8        viable 123:12          116:12 118:6,8,9      129:13,15 131:6\ntriple 100:12           45:18 67:18 68:1     vice 23:16 74:2        118:14               woman 120:16\ntrue 60:11 67:5         69:17 84:16 98:14    video 6:16            ways 32:18 56:4,12    Women 18:11\n  69:7 74:14 110:18     105:12               Videographer 4:9       63:9 70:14 129:11    words 38:20 102:4\n  113:15,21 123:16    understanding            6:2 7:13 39:11,14   Webb 24:6 59:12        104:11\n  127:8 128:10          74:1 79:1 87:12        72:6 73:3 82:4,9    Wednesday 1:16        work 17:21 21:22\ntrust 107:8             91:5                   99:6,10 126:5,8      2:3                   26:5 33:2 38:10\ntruth 80:15,16,17     underwriting           videos 96:15          week 57:2 119:14       47:7,11 54:15\ntruthful 18:22          105:21 106:16        videotaped 1:14        119:14 121:20,20      56:3 61:4 70:15\n  102:15              unique 53:12,15          2:7 6:3             welcome 77:22          70:21 73:21 83:21\ntry 27:17 29:11       unit 55:21 92:17       Vineyard 116:6        Wendell 103:20         85:4 94:15 98:16\n  64:13 65:14         United 1:1 6:6         Virginia 15:20        went 14:10 15:6        104:4,5\n  101:16                100:12               vis-a-vis 29:5         16:5,14 40:3,3       worked 15:14 16:5\ntrying 10:18 18:14    units 70:8             Volume 1:20            50:15 51:8,14         16:6 17:16,17\n  32:18 33:10 38:11   University 18:11       vs 1:8                 59:3,12 98:8          18:2,3 24:6,17,19\n  52:7 57:17 85:9     unsigned 5:9,13                               101:1,2,2 103:13      24:19,21,22 25:1\n  117:1 120:19          80:2                         W             weren't 70:19          25:2,3,3,4,4,5,6,7\nturn 109:21 110:5     updates 29:3           waived 126:12          118:16 121:3          25:9,11,16,17,21\nturned 74:5           Urban 16:6             Wall 104:10           west 10:21             47:8 54:14 57:16\nturns 98:4 101:18     use 44:4 66:16         want 21:14 27:2       we're 31:11 39:12      57:20 71:10 85:5\ntwo 8:12 14:4 18:9    usually 41:12           50:7 66:16 80:11      39:15 62:5 72:7       101:3 103:18,20\n  28:12 32:2 52:21      101:10                89:13 111:11          73:4 82:6,11          106:10 115:16\n  73:18 85:2,2 86:9   utilization 121:10      118:13,14 124:5       99:11 115:6          working 17:9 21:12\n  86:11 102:3         utilize 66:9           wanted 69:14 85:13     116:20 119:18         37:7,16 38:11,18\n  107:22 110:14,16    utilized 69:9          wants 44:2             126:6                 45:13 52:6,8\n  113:5,7,10 114:16   utilizing 59:5         warm 31:11            white 101:9            70:13 101:4\n  114:18 115:3        U.S 15:15 17:10        Washington 1:17       Williams 1:6,15 2:8    120:22\n  129:10 130:2                                2:13 3:5,14 4:3       3:2 5:3,6,9,11,14    works 26:12 66:20\ntwo-year 106:7                  V             6:10 8:9,17 9:6       5:20 6:4,5 7:12,16    118:15\ntype 14:17 21:16      v 129:5 131:5           24:20 44:18,19        8:1,6 39:17 73:6     worth 27:15\n  31:13 47:12 53:8    vague 111:16            45:4,8 120:9,9        77:6 78:14 80:3      wouldn't 100:9\n  58:10,13            validity 60:5           129:4 131:2           82:13 84:9,14,20      124:5,13\ntypes 52:9 53:14,20   value 12:8             wasn't 13:22 49:5      87:22 92:6 94:14     WPFW 10:10\ntypewriting 128:9     van 41:12               62:9 76:11 80:16      94:20 96:7 107:21    write 26:4 65:12\ntypical 89:19         variation 44:3          91:9 101:13 103:9     127:5 129:5,6         74:8 103:12\n                      various 56:6 91:8       120:9                 131:5,6              writing 62:7\n         U              118:7                watching 96:14        wind 83:19            written 35:1 78:19\nU 92:17 93:5,13,18    vegetarian 47:5        Watergate 22:4,11     Wisconsin 4:2          100:21,22 103:10\n  94:7                vehicle 56:13 59:5      108:6,8,9 110:2      witness 7:14,17       wrote 60:7 74:13\nUh-huh 81:8,21        venture 74:16          way 27:8 38:12         12:18 26:20 27:1      75:17 77:9 78:10\n  84:5 88:11 110:4      78:12 82:16 83:3      45:22 50:3 53:20      33:15 73:7 87:21      100:19\nultimately 27:20        83:10,12 84:13        56:10,15,22 59:1      103:5 105:20\n  67:12               venue 66:21             66:14 70:17,22        111:20 112:1,5,17             X\nun 100:1              versions 101:1          78:10 84:11 85:21     112:18 119:12        X 1:4,12 5:1\nuncovered 27:21       versus 6:5              93:19 97:10 104:9     122:7 128:4,7,11\n\n\nEsquire Deposition Services                                              MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                    VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB         Document 33-4     Filed 06/21/2007         Page 50 of 54\n\n                                    Marialice Williams\n                                                                                                Page 15\n\n         Y            12:26 72:7            50:22 52:4 54:22    33 5:8                87 5:17\nyear 11:16 22:15      1300 92:18            55:12 56:15 57:12   383-5300 3:15\n                      131 1:19              58:3,7,18 59:16     3900 4:2                       9\n  45:6 51:20,21\n  124:12              14 128:21             60:14 61:12,20                            9 12:9 65:6\n                      15 34:17 62:12        62:1,4,6,9,12                4            9/11 57:8,10,11\nyears 8:12 9:1,10\n  9:21 14:4 18:6        66:12 129:19        63:19 64:1,3,7,10   4 5:13 79:18,22         58:12 108:9,12,14\n  21:12 24:12 28:12   1625 2:11 3:13 6:10   64:16,17 66:9,13      130:1               90 5:19\n  32:2 57:17,19       17 109:19 113:16      68:20 70:17,22      42 109:22\n  60:9 85:2 106:8     179392 1:21 131:7     71:6,14 78:21       429-0014 129:12\nYesterday 20:6        18 15:10 17:5 18:3    79:15 108:10,18       131:3\nYMCA 61:3             19 11:17 21:6 110:7   113:19 115:12       43 110:6\nYork 65:3 68:11       19th 131:1            116:1 119:6         468-7737 3:6\n                      1922 8:8 91:21        121:16 122:14       47 82:1\n         Z            1980 8:20 13:13       123:4,17 124:4,17\n                      1981 102:5            125:14                        5\nzero 89:4\nZurich 25:7 34:9      1981s 102:4         20011 3:5 8:17        5 5:15 32:3 70:8\n  61:8,10,15,19       1987 11:17            129:4                 80:21 81:6 82:14\n  62:3,11,15,22       1988 17:16 21:6     20016 4:3               116:4\n  66:13               1998 28:14,15       2002 30:20 55:1       5/15/01 5:8\n                        37:14 45:1,17       57:21,22 59:13      5/3/01 5:12\n         $              46:8 49:12 50:20    62:1 64:19 65:1,4   50 70:8 101:1 107:2\n$10 92:19               50:21 52:4,17       65:9 78:21            107:2,2\n$10,000 12:9            56:22 57:21 62:1  2003 109:16,19        5511 3:4 129:3\n$90 27:15               85:1 98:4           113:16              5722 8:16 22:5\n                      1999 48:14          20036 131:2                     6\n          1                               20037 9:7\n1 1:19,20 5:7 6:3               2                               6 5:17 80:1 81:6\n                                          2004 32:2 116:4\n  33:21 34:3 35:7     2 5:9 75:11,14 82:7 2005 116:5,6,7,10       87:5,6,20\n  52:17 58:3 82:5       82:10,15,15                             6/14/02 5:16\n                                            116:17 117:12\n1:05CV01483 1:7       2:12 99:8,11                              61 9:19\n                                            118:2,17 119:4\n  6:8                 2:46 126:6,9,13                           620 131:2\n                                          2007 1:16 2:3 6:11\n1:34 73:2,4           2000 28:15,22         24:13 129:1 130:1             7\n1:47 82:5               29:17 48:15 58:15   131:7\n1:49 82:10                                                      7 5:4,18 90:9,13\n                        78:20 80:1        2008 128:21\n10 52:6 129:1                                                   700 9:5\n                      20001 8:9           202 3:6,15 4:4\n10D 2:12                                                        75 5:10\n                      20006 2:13            129:12 131:3\n10:30 2:4 6:13                                                  752-6167 4:4\n                      20006-4001 3:14     21 110:1\n1020 131:1                                                      79 5:12,14\n                      2001 22:12 23:8     28 1:16 2:3 6:11\n104 82:14               28:19,22 29:17,22   131:7                         8\n10547 81:19 82:14       30:1,19,22 33:8                         8 5:20 109:8,12\n109 5:21                33:14 34:17 35:10           3\n                                                                  129:19\n11 52:6 57:11 58:7      35:15 36:14,22    3 5:11 79:6,10,16     8/6/00 5:14\n11:25 39:12             37:5 40:16 41:19    79:17               80 5:16\n11:36 39:15             42:4,9,15 43:5,12 3/17/03 5:21          81 13:13\n12 52:7                 48:15 49:12 50:20 30 129:9              82 13:14\n\n\nEsquire Deposition Services                                           MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                 VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB   Document 33-4   Filed 06/21/2007   Page 51 of 54\n\n\n\n\n                                1\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB   Document 33-4   Filed 06/21/2007   Page 52 of 54\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB   Document 33-4   Filed 06/21/2007   Page 53 of 54\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB   Document 33-4   Filed 06/21/2007   Page 54 of 54\n\f","ocr_status":2,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:41:27-07:00","document_number":"33","attachment_number":3,"pacer_doc_id":"04501888540","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":2,"description":"Exhibit Exhibit B - 3-28-2007 Williams Dep and Exhibit","acms_document_guid":""},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686744/","id":2686744,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/33/4/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.671825-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:09.735863-08:00","sha1":"53bb5a83aeefeaa113f6302cd444867cee770e08","page_count":16,"file_size":508303,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.4.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.4.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":"Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-5 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 1 of 16\n\nEXHIBIT C\n\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB ~ Document 33-5 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 2 of 16\n\nIN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\nFOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA\n\nMARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS, : __Civil Action No. 1:05CV01483\nPlaintiff, : Judge John D. Bates\nVS.\n\nFEDERAL NATIONAL MORTGAGE\nASSOCIATION, ef ai.\n\nDefendants.\n\nDEFENDANT FEDERAL NATIONAL MORTGAGE ASSOCIATION\u2019S\nRESPONSE TO PLAINTIFF\u2019S FIRST SET OF INTERROGATORIES\n\nPursuant to Rules 33 and 34 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, defendant Federal\nNational Mortgage Association (\u201cFannie Mae\u201d) responds to Plaintiff Marialice Bathrus\nWilliams\u2019s (\u201cplaintiff\u201d) First Set Of Interrogatories (\u201cInterrogatories\u201d) as follows:\n\nGENERAL OBJECTIONS\n\n1. Fannie Mae has made diligent and reasonable efforts to respond to each and every\nInterrogatory, to the extent it has not been objected to, as Fannie Mae understands and interprets\nthe Interrogatory. If plaintiff subsequently asserts an interpretation of any Interrogatory that\ndiffers from that of Fannie Mae, Fannie Mae reserves the right to supplement its objection and/or\nresponses.\n\n2. Fannie Mae generally objects to plaintiff's Interrogatories to the extent they seek\ninformation or documents protected from discovery by the attorney-client privilege, the work\n\nproduct doctrine, and/or any other applicable privilege, immunity, or exemption from disclosure.\n\nCONFIDENTIAL/\nSUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER\n\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-5 \u2014-Filed-06/21/2007 Page 3 of 16\n\n3. Fannie Mae generally objects to plaintiff's Interrogatories to the extent they are\noverbroad, vague, ambiguous or unduly burdensome or call for the disclosure of information or\ndocuments that is not relevant to the subject matter of this action and which is not reasonably\ncalculated to lead to the discovery of admissible evidence.\n\n4. Fannie Mae generally objects to plaintiff\u2019s Interrogatories as overbroad or calling\nfor the disclosure of information or documents that is not relevant to the subject matter of this\naction and which is not reasonably calculated-to lead to the discovery of admissible evidence to\nthe extent she seeks information beyond the July 1998 through December 2003 timeframe\nrelevant to this action.\n\n5. Fannie Mae generally objects to plaintiff's Interrogatories as unduly burdensome\n\n\u201cto the extent she seek\u00e9 information that is available from public sources, is already known by\nplaintiff, or is equally as accessible to plaintiff as it is to Fannie Mae.\n\n6. Fannie Mae generally objects to-plaintiff\u2019s Interrogatories to the extent they may\nbe read as requiring the use of unreasonable data recovery processes.\n\n7. Fannie Mae generally objects to plaintiff's Interrogatories to the extent she seeks\nthe production of documents, which might otherwise be responsive, obtained by Fannie Mae\u2019s\nattomeys in connection with, or in furtherance of, their representation of Defendants in this\naction, or any other civil action or governmental or regulatory investigation or proceeding.\n\n8. Fannie Mae generally objects to plaintiff's Interrogatories to the extent she seeks\nthe production of documents, which might otherwise by responsive, protected from discovery by\nthe attorney-client privilege and/or the work product doctrine contained in counsel files in\nconnection with, or in furtherance of, the representation of Defendants in this action, or any other\n\ncivil action or governmental or regulatory investigation or proceeding. \u2014\n\nCONFIDENTIAL/\nSUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER\n\n\fa ie ete lk len\n\nibe\n\nNiall il el\n\nCase 1:05-cv-01483-UDB ~ Document 33-5 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 4 of 16\n\n9. To the extent that Fannie Mae provides information or documents in response to |\nplaintiff's Interrogatories, such production shall not constitute a waiver of any objection to the\nrelevance or admissibility of such information or documents, all such objections being expressly\n\nreserved,\n10. Fannie Mae objects to the Interrogatories to the extent they contain more than one\n\nunique question and seek to impose a burden on Fannie Mae greater than that required by Fed. R.\n\nCiv. P. 33.\nRESPONSES TO SPECIFIC INTERROGATORIES\nINTERROGATORY NO. 1; For the period July 1, 1998 to July 1, 2006, identify\n\nthe names, race, qualifications, addresses, and telephone numbers of the insurance brokers that\nFannie Mae has used for its multifamily programs; and any other commercial insurance brokers\nand agents that Fannie Mae uses to provide insurance to its directors and officers or with any\nother product such as securitization of mortgage loans or credit enhancement. _\n\nRESPONSE TO INTERROGATORY NO. 1; In addition to the General Objections\n\nidentified above, Fannie Mae specifically objects to Interrogatory No. 1 to the extent it is overly\nbroad and unduly burdensome and not reasonably calculated to lead to the discovery of -\nadmissible evidence. In particular, the interrogatory seeks information concerning \u201cany\u201d\ncommercial insurance broker that Fannie Mae used, regardless of whether it relates to the\nproposed transaction at issue in this lawsuit (the May 2001 proposal referred to or referenced in\nthe Amended Complaint or this Court\u2019s Order filed on or about June 26, 2006). In addition, the\nInterrogatory seeks information beyond the time period relevant to this litigation. Subject to and\nwithout waiving the foregoing objections, Fannie Mae states that the only insurance broker or\nagent that Fannie Mae used for the procurement of multifamily credit risk insurance (\u201cMCRI\u201d)\nbetween July 1, 1998 and December 2003 was CAM Financial Services, Inc. (\u201cCAM\u201d). Upon\ninformation and belief, Fannie Mae states that CAM is a corporation whose Registered Agent is\n\nCharles Rumsey, who is located at 259 Alexander Road, Long Beach, MS, 39560. Information\n\nCONFIDENTIAL/\nSUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER\n\n\fala a alia itll lial all\n\na neeaaeeeepeerianinenneneen ene\n\nCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-5 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 5 of 16\n\n\u2018concerning CAM\u2019s ownership, qualifications and other identifying information can be found in\n\nthe documents produced in and other litigation materials from this litigation, including but not\n\nlimited to the deposition of Robert G. Jones. Answering further, Fannie Mae states that Crump\n\nInsurance Services represented CAM as its wholesale broker in a number of these transactions.\n\nFannie Mae further states that it entered into several additional MCRI transactions within\n\nthe relevant time period, but none of these transactions involved Fannie Mae\u2019s DUS program,\n\nand thus they are not relevant to the subject matter of this action and are not reasonably\n\ncalculated to lead to the discovery of admissible evidence. Fannie Mae states, in those instances,\nit purchased insurance directly from an insurance carrier rather than through a broker.\n\nAnswering further, Fannie Mae states that it worked on those transactions with, among others,\n\nCraig Ott, whose role was to serve as an underwriter for the carrier.\n\nINTERROGATORY NQ. 2: Describe how consulting and insurance services are\nprocured. What methods, practices and policy, including but not limited to written manuals,\ninstructions, and directives, does Fannie Mae utilize and or has used since January 1998 to insure\nthat minorities are utilized in the procurement process?\n\nRESPONSE TO INTERROGATORY NO. 2: In addition to the General Objections\n\ndescribed above, Fannie Mae specifically objects 10 Interrogatory No. 2 because it is overbroad,\nvague, ambiguous or unduly burdensome or calls for the disclosure of information or documents\nthat is not relevant to the subject matter of this action and which is not reasonably calculated to\nlead to the discovery of admissible evidence. For example, the Instructions and Interrogatory are\nvague because they do not define \u201cconsulting and insurance services\u201d or \u201cprocure{],\u201d and the -\nInterrogatory is overbroad and unduly burdensome to the extent that it is not limited to the\nproposed transaction at issue in this lawsuit (the May 2001 proposal referred to or referenced in\nthe Amended Complaint or this Court\u2019s Order filed on or about June 26, 2006), or to the time\n\nperiod relevant to this litigation. Subject to and without waiving the foregoing objections,\n\nCONFIDENTIAL/\nSUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER\n\n\fbao\n\ngh tilt\n\nCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-5 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 6 of 16\n\nFannie Mae states that between July 1, 1998 and December 2003 it did not purchase consulting .\nor insurance services related to MCRI. Fannie Mae further states it entered into a number of\nmultifamily insurance transactions with insurance carriers either directly or through an insurance\nbroker. Answering further, Fannie Mae incorporates its response to Interrogatory No. 1 as if\nfully stated herein.\n\nINTERROGATORY NO. 3: If Fannie Mae utilizes minority contractors, please\u00bb\ndescribe the overall amount of business and what percentage of business procured by Fannie\n\nMae is provided by minority contractors by dollar amount as well as percentage of business, by.\nname, company, date, address, telephone number, and so on by year since January 1998.\n\nRESPONSE TO INTERROGATORY NO. 3: In addition to the General Objections\ndescribed above, Fannie Mae specifically objects to Interrogatory No. 3 because it is overbroad,\nvague, ambiguous or unduly burdensome or calls for the disclosure of information or documents\nthat is not relevant to the subject matter of this action and which is not reasonably calculated to.\nlead to the discovery of admissible evidence. For example, the Instructions and Interrogstory are\nvague because they do not define \u201ccontractors,\u201d and the Interrogatory is overbroad and unduly\nburdensome to the extent that it is not limited to the proposed transaction at issue in this lawsuit\n(the May 2001 proposal referred to or referenced in the Amended Complaint or this Court\u2019s\nOrder filed on or about June 26, 2006), or to the time period relevant to this litigation. Subject to\n\nand without waiving the foregoing objections, Fannie Mae states that between July 1, 1998 and\n\n. December 2003 it did not utilize contractors for MCRI. Answering further, Fannie Mae states\n\nthat it did negotiate a Memorandum of Understanding with CAM (see document Bates labeled\nFNMA.MBW.006294-6296) while the plaintiff was working for Fannie Mae, and entered into a\nnumber of multifamily insurance transactions with insurance carriers either directly or through\n\nan insurance broker. Answering further, Fannie Mae incorporates its response to Interrogatory \u2014\n\nNo. 1 as if fully stated herein.\n\n3 CONFIDENTIAL/\nSUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER\n\n[ee ee a\n\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-5 Filed. 06/21/2007 Page 7 of 16\n\nFinally, Fannie Mae states that, in the years 1998 through 2003, Minority Women-Owned\nBusinesses (\u201cMWOB\u201d) made up between 18 and 21% of its discretionary spending.\n\nINTERROGATORYNO.4: Did Fannie Mae make any efforts to contract for the\nprofessional services of Marialice Williams from June 1998 to the present? If not, why not?\n\nRESPONSE TO INTERROGATORY NO. 4: In addition to the General Objections\ndescribed above, Fannie Mae specifically objects to Interrogatory No. 4 because it is overbroad,\nvague, ambiguous or unduly burdensome or calls for the disclosure of information or documents\nthat is not relevant to the subject matter of this action and which is not reasonably caloulated io\nlead to the discovery of admissible evidence. For example, the Instructions and Interrogatory are\n\nvague because they do not define \u201cprofessional services,\u201d and the Interrogatory is overbroad and\n\nunduly burdensome to the extent that it is not limited to the proposed transaction at issue in this\nlawsuit (the May 2001 proposal referred to or referenced in the Amended Complaint or this\nCourt\u2019s Order filed on or about June 26, 2006), or to the time period relevant to this litigation.\nSubject to and without waiving the foregoing objections, Fannie Mae states that at times between _\nJuly 1, 1998 and August 2001 it communicated with Ms. Williams concerning preliminary\nconcepts she proposed. Answering further, Fannie Mae states that it did not pursue the May,\n2001 proposal because the concept proposed was inconsistent with Fannie Mae\u2019s business model\nthat required risk-sharing between Fannie Mae and its DUS lenders, and the Risk-Based Capital\nRules issued by the Office of Federal Housing Oversight (\u201cOFHEO\u201d) in July 200] obviated any\nneed to pursue the proposal.\n\nINTERROGATORY NO.5: = Was Fannie Mae aware that Marialice Williams was\nnot getting any insurance business from CAM Financial? If so, when did Fannie Mae discover\nthis? Did Fannie Mae inquire of CAM Financial why Marialice Williams was not getting any\n\nbusiness from them? Set forth the time, date, manner, substance, and identify the documentation .\nof any discussion among defendants.\n\nRESPONSE TO INTERROGATORY NO. 5: In addition to the General Objections\n\n6 CONFIDENTIAL/\nSUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER\n\nre\n\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB | Document 33-5 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 8 of 16\n\nidentified above, Fannie Mae specifically objects to Interrogatory No. 5 because it is overbroad,\nvague, ambiguous or unduly burdensome. For example, the Interrogatory is overbroad and .\nunduly burdensome to the extent that it is not limited to the time period relevant to this litigation.\nSubj ect to and without waiving the foregoing objections, Fannie Mae states that between July 1,\n1998 and December 2003. it was not specifically aware of the business relationship between\nplaintiff and CAM, nor of the extent of any business dealings between plaintiff and CAM.\nFannie Mae states that, at times between 1998 and August 2001, plaintiff mentioned in\ndiscussions with Fannie Mae that she was not getting any insurance business from CAM. Fannie\nMae further states that it did not \u201cinquire of CAM Financial why Marialice Williams was not\ngetting any business from them.\u201d\n\nINTERROGATORY NO. 6: Why did Fannie Mae ask Marialice Williams to\n\nprovide them [sic] with a letter indicating that she was not \u201cdoing business\u201d with CAM Financial\nas a prerequisite for doing business with Fannie Mae?\n\nRESPONSE TO INTERROGATORY NO. 6: In addition to the General Objections\nidentified above, Fannie Mae specifically objects to Interrogatory No. 6 because it is Vague or -\nambiguous. Fannie Mae also objects to the extent this Interrogatory improperly asserts or\nimplies that Fannie Mae sought the above-referenced letter as a \u201cprerequisite\u201d for doing business\nwith plaintiff. For the purpose of this response, Fannie Mae assumes that the above-referenced\nletter is the letter attached to plaintiff's May 3, 2001 e-mail to defendant Huebscher, Rhoda\nNewman and CAM (see FNMA.MBW.008002-8004). Subject to and without waiving the\nforegoing objections, Fannie Mae states that to the extent it requested that plaintiff provide such\nletter, it did so to understand the relationship between plaintiff's company and CAM, and to\nensure that all the parties agreed that Fannie Mae\u2019s agreement with CAM did not preclude\nFannie Mae from engaging in any proposed DUS transactions that plaintiff might present to\nFannie Mae.\n\nCONFIDENTIAL/\nSUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER\n\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-5. Filed 06/21/2007 Page 9 of 16\n\nINTERROGATORY NO. 7: Why did Fannie Mae refuse to respond to two or\nthree simple questions related to DUS business that were.asked by Marialice Williams in 2001?\nWas Fannie Mae ever intending to answer these questions? Did Fannie Mae not answer the\nquestions because Fannie Mae was not interested in laying off DUS risk? Was Fannie Mae not\ninterested in providing relief to DUS lenders through laying off risk through an insurance\nmechanism? Does Fannie Mae have now or did it ever have an interest in laying off the primary,\nsecondary, or tertiary risk associated with their DUS portfolio?\n\nRESPONSE TO INTERROGATORY NO. 7: In addition to the General Objections\n\nidentified above, Fannie Mae specifically objects to Interrogatory No. 7 because it is vague or\nambiguous. For example, the Interrogatory is vague or ambiguous because it does not cite to a\nspecific document that contains the \u201ctwo or three simple questions related to DUS business that\nwere asked by Marialice Williams in 2001.\u201d Fannie Mae also objects to the extent this\nInterrogatory improperly asserts or implies that Fannie Mae \u201crefused\u201d to answer questions posed\n- by plaintiff. For the purpose of this response, Fannie Mae assumes that such document is the\nMay 23, 2001 e-mail from plaintiff to defendant Huebscher and Rhoda Newman (see\nFNMA.MBW.008031). Subject to and without waiving the foregoing objections, Fannie Mae\nstates that it did not refuse to respond to the questions posed by plaintiff in the aforementioned e-\nmail. Answering further, Fannie Mae states that it determined that it should not pursue the\ntransaction at issue in this lawsuit -- the May 2001 proposal referred to or referenced in the\nAmended Complaint and/or this Court\u2019s Order filed on or about June 26, 2006 -- because the\n_ concept proposed was inconsistent with Fannie Mae\u2019s business model that required risk-sharing\nbetween Fannie Mae and its DUS lenders, and the Risk-Based Capital Rules issued by OFHEO\nin July 2001 obviated any need to pursue the proposal. In response to the last question in\nInterrogatory No. 7, Fannie Mae states that such question is 100 vague to answer in the abstract\nand absent a specific proposal. Answering further, Fannie Mae states that its DUS business\n\nmodel generally requires risk-sharing between Fannie Mae and its DUS lenders.\n\nCONFIDENTIAL/\nSUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER\n\nlr\n\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-5 \u2014_ Filed 06/21/2007 Page 10 of 16\n\nINTERROGATORY NO. 8: Did Fannie Mae utilize insurance while securitizing \u2014\nand purchasing loans in its \u201cAggregation\u201d program? What type of insurance product was used?\nWhat policy was used for this program? Did the insurance concept differ in any way from what\nMs. Williams recommended to Fannie Mae for the Aggregation program prior to her departure?\n\nRESPONSE TO INTERROGATORY NO. 8: In addition to the General Objections\nidentified above, Fannie Mae specifically objects to Interrogatory No. 8 to the extent it is overly\nbroad and unduly burdensome and not reasonably calculated to lead to the discovery of\nadmissible evidence. Specifically, where the proposed transaction at issue in this lawsuit (the\nMay 2001 proposal referred to or referenced in the Amended Complaint or this Court\u2019s Order\nfiled on or about June 26, 2006) relates to Fannie Mae\u2019s DUS program, the Interrogatory seeks\ninformation concerning Fannie Mae\u2019s Aggregation program.\n\nINTERROGATORY NO. 9: Who is the \u201cinternational\u201d broker, including name,\naddress; telephone number that Richard Lawch indicated was hired by Fannie Mae for the\n\nmultifamily division\u2019s securitization and other loan programs? What qualifications does that\nperson have? What is the racial identity of that person or persons?\n\nRESPONSE TO INTERROGATORY NO. 9: In addition to the General Objections\n\n_ jdentified above, Fannie Mae specifically: objects to Interrogatory No. 9 to the extent itis .\noverbroad, vague, ambiguous or unduly burdensome or calls for the disclosure of information or |\ndocuments that is not relevant to the subject matter of this action and which is not reasonably\ncalculated to lead to the discovery of admissible evidence. For example, the Interrogatory is\noverbroad and unduly burdensome to the extent it is not limited to the proposed transaction at\nissue in this lawsuit (the May 2001 proposal referred to or referenced in the Amended Complaint .\nor this Court's Order filed on or about June 26, 2006), or to the time period relevant to this\nlitigation. Subject and without waiving the foregoing objections, Fannie Mae states that it never\nhired an \u201cinternational broker\u201d for the multifamily division\u2019s securitization and other loan\nprograms. Answering further, Fannie Mae states that the only insurance broker or agent that\n\nFannie Mae used for the procurement of MCRI between July 1, 1998 and December 2003 was\n\nCONFIDENTIAL/\nSUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER\n\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-5 \u2014 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 11 of 16\n\nCAM.\n\nINTERROGATORY NO.10: Why didn\u2019t Fannie Mae give insurance business\ndirectly to Marialice Williams?\n\nRESPONSE TO INTERROGATORY NO. 10: in addition to the General Objections _\n\ndescribed above, Fannie Mae specifically objects to Interrogatory No. 10 because it is overbroad,\nvague, ambiguous or unduly burdensome or calls for the disclosure of information or documents\n_ that is not relevant to the subject matter of this action and which is not reasonably calculated to\nlead to the discovery of admissible evidence. For example, the Interrogatory is overbroad and\nunduly burdensome to the extent that it is not limited to the proposed transaction at issue in this\nlawsuit (the May 2001 proposal referred to or referenced in the Amended Complaint or this\n~ Court\u2019s Order filed on or about June 26, 2006), or to the time period relevant to this litigation.\nSubject to and without waiving the foregoing objections, Fannie Mae states that at times between\nJuly 1, 1998 and August 2001 it communicated with Ms. Williams conceming preliminary\nconcepts she proposed. Answering further, Fannie Mae states that it did not pursue the May\n2001 proposal because the concept proposed was inconsistent with Fannie Mae\u2019s business model\nthat required risk-sharing between Fannie Mae and its DUS lenders, and the Risk-Based Capital\nRules issued by OFHEO in July 2001 obviated any need to pursue the proposal.\nINTERROGATORY NO. 11; Why did Fannie Mae assign Rhoda Newman to\nwork with Ms. Williams on projects involving various forms of insurance coverage for the\n\nmultifamily programs? Why didn\u2019t Ms. Newman continue to work with Ms. Williams after CAM\nfiled its lawsuit?\n\nRESPONSE TO INTERROGATORY NO. 11: In addition to the Genera!\n\nObjections described above, Fannie Mae specifically objects to Interrogatory No. 11 because it is\noverbroad, vague, ambiguous or unduly burdensome or calls for the disclosure of information or\ndocuments that is not relevant to the subject matter of this action and which is not reasonably\n\ncalculated to lead to the discovery of admissible evidence. For example, the Interrogatory is\n\nCONFIDENTIAL/\n\n10\nSUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER\n\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-5 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 12 of 16\n\noverbroad and unduly burdensome to the extent that it is not limited to the proposed transaction\nat issue in this lawsuit {the May 2001 proposal referred to or referenced in the Amended\n-Complaint or this Court\u2019s Order filed on or about June 26, 2006), or to the time period relevant\nto this litigation. Subj ect to and without waiving the foregoing objections, Fannie Mae states\nthat Ms. Newman reported to plaintiff when plaintiff worked at Fannie Mae. Fannie Mae further\nstates s that plaintiff at times communicated with Ms. Newman after plant left the company, as\nthe documents produced by defendants i in this litigation show. Shortly after Fannie Mae\ndetermined that it should not pursue the transaction at issue in this lawsuit because the concept\nproposed was inconsistent with Fannie Mae\u2019s business model that required risk-sharing between\nFannie Mae and its DUS lenders, and the Risk-Based Capital Rules issued by OFHEO in July\n2001 obviated any need to pursue the proposal, plaintiff stopped communicating with Ms.\nNewman concerning preliminary, potential or actual business opportunities.\n\nINTERROGATORY NO. 12: Did Fannie Mae ever have any intention of utilizing\nthe services of Ms. Williams, the creator of the multifamily credit risk insurance program for\n\nprograms involving the use of insurance? Did Fannie Mae hire some other more qualified .\npersons to do this business with Fannie Mae?\n\nRESPONSE TO INTERROGATORY NO. 12; In addition to the General Objections\ndescribed above, Fannie Mae specifically objects to Interrogatory No. 12 because it is overbroad,\nvague, ambiguous or unduly burdensome or calls for the disclosure of information or documents .\nthat is not relevant to the subject matter of this action and which is not reasonably calculated to\nlead to the discovery of admissible evidence. For example, the Interrogatory is overbroad and\nunduly burdensome to the extent that it is not limited to the proposed transaction at issue in this\nlawsuit (the May 2001 proposal referred to or referenced in the Amended Complaint or this\nCourt\u2019s Order filed on or about June 26, 2006), or to the time period relevant to this litigation.\n\nSubject to and without waiving the foregoing objections, Fannie Mae states that at times between\n\n11 _CONFIDENTIAL/\nSUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER\n\n\fCase 1:05-cv- -JDB\ne 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-5 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 13 of 16\n\nJuly |, 1998 and August 2001 it communicated with Ms. Williams concerning preliminary\nconcepts she proposed. Fannie Mae further states that it did not pursue the May 2001 proposal\nbecause the concept proposed was \u2018inconsistent with Fannie Mae\u2019s business model that required\nrisk-sharing between Fannie Mae and its DUS lenders, and the Risk- Based Capital Rules issued\nby OFHEO i in July 2001 obviated any need to pursue the proposal. Answering further, Fannie\nMae incorporates its responses to Interrogatory Nos. 1-3 as if fully incorporated herein.\n\nINTERROGATORY NO. 13: Please provide all documents identified in your\nresponses OF used to prepare these responses.\n\nRESPONSE TO INTERROGATORY NO. 43: In addition to the General Objections\n\ndescribed above, Fannie Mae objects to Interrogatory No. 13 because it is not an interrogatory.\nSubject to and without waiving its obj ections, Fannie Mae states that it referred to or identified\ndocuments produced in and other litigation materials from this litigation to answer plaintiff's\ninterrogatory requests. Fannie Mae states that it referred to or identified three documents not\npreviously produced to prepare these responses: OFHEO\u2019s Final Risk-Based Capital Regulation,\n\nwhich 1s publicly available at nitp://worw.ofheo.gov/media/archive/docs/regs/RBCFinal pdf, and\n\ninformation concerning Fannie Mae\u2019s MWOB activities, which is being produced at Bates Nos.\n\nFNMA.MBW.008613-861 4.\n\nMay 10, 2007 Respectfully Submitted,\n\nSeo bss\n\nEvelyn L. Becker (D. C. Bar No. 451163)\nSarah A. Goldfrank (D.C. Bar \u2018No. 482382)\nKyra A. Grundeman (D.C. Bar No. 493622)\nO\u2019Melveny & Myers LLP\n\n1625 Eye Street, N. W.\nWashington, D.C. 20006\n\n(202) 383-5300 (phone)\n\n\\2 CONFIDENTIAL\nSUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER\n\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-5 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 14 of 16\n\n(202) 383-5414 (fax)\n\nCounsel for Defendants Federal National\nMortgage Association, Richard Lawch and\nGrace Huebscher\n\nJonathan L. Griffith (D.C. Bar No. 456080)\nFannie Mae .\n\n3900 Wisconsin Avenue, N. W.\nWashington, D.C. 20016\n\n(202) 752-6167 (phone)\n\n(202) 752-4948 (fax)\n\nCounsel for Defendant Fi ederal National\nMortgage Association\n\n3 ~\u2014 CONFIDENTIAL/\nSUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER\n\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-5 \u2014_ Filed 06/21/2007 Page 15 of 16\n\nCERTIFICATE OF SERVICE\n\nI HEREBY CERTIFY that a true and correct copy of the foregoing was furnished by\nFederal Express this 10th day of May 2007 upon:\n\nMichael W. Beasley, Esq. Brian Lederer, Esq.\n\n200 Park Avenue, Suite 106 3003 Van Ness Street, N.W.\n\nFalls Church, VA 22046 Suite #W228\nWashington, D.C. 20008\n\nHarley Jay Daniels\n\n_ 5511 Second Street, NW\nWashington, D.C. 20011\n\nSarah A. Goldfrank\n\n14 CONFIDENTIAL/\nSUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER\n\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB -Document 33-5 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 16 of 16\n\nIN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\nFOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA\n\nMARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS,\n\nPlaintiff,\nCivil Action No. 1:05CV01483 -\nVS.\nJudge John D. Bates\nFEDERAL NATIONAL MORTGAGE\nASSOCIATION, et al.\n\n: DECLARATION OF RICHARD\nDefendants. : LAWCH\n\nI, Richard Lawch, hereby declare as follows:\n\nI verified the attached responses to Plaintiff Marialice B. Williams\u2019 First Set of\nInterrogatories on behalf of Federal National Mortgage Association; said responses were\nprepared with the assistance and advice of counsel; the responses to Plaintiff's First Set of\ninterrogatories, subject to inadvertent or undiscovered error, are based on and therefore\nnecessarily limited by the records and information still in existence, presently recollected, and\nthus far discovered; Federal National Mortgage Association reserves the right.to make any\nchanges to the response, to designate additional or different witnesses, or to introduce additional\nor other evidence at trial if it appears at any time that omissions or errors have been made or that\nmore accurate information is available; and subject to the limitations set forth above, the above\nresponses are true to the best of my knowledge, information, and belief.\n\n| declare under penaity of perjury that the foregoing is true and correct. Executed on this __th of\n\nbLLED\n\nRichard Laweh\n\nMay 2007 at\n\n","ocr_status":1,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:43:54-07:00","document_number":"33","attachment_number":4,"pacer_doc_id":"04501888879","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":2,"description":"Exhibit Exhibit C - Fannie Mae&#039;s Interrogatory Responses","acms_document_guid":""},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686745/","id":2686745,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/33/5/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.679920-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:09.893470-08:00","sha1":"7728f7f89485d157f22236b83f5fa7646b951a39","page_count":3,"file_size":143568,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.5.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.5.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":"Case 1:05-cv-01483-UDB Document 33-6 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 1of3\n\nEXHIBIT D\n\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document33-6 Filed 06/21/2007 Page2of3\n\nIN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\nFOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA\n\nMARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS,\n\nPlaintiff,\nCivil Action No. 1:05CV01483\nVS.\nJudge John D. Bates\nFEDERAL NATIONAL MORTGAGE\nASSOCIATION, et al.\n: DECLARATION OF RICHARD\nDefendants. : LAWCH\n\nI, Richard Lawch, hereby declare as follows:\n\n1. I have been employed by the Federal National Mortgage Association (\u201cFannie\n\nMae\u201d) since 1991. I currently hold the position of Senior Vice President of Community\n\nInvestments.\n2. I did not promise Ms. Williams contract business at any time.\n3. I did not have any business interactions with Ms. Williams after December 20,\n\n2001, when CAM Financial Services, Inc. (\u201cCAM Financial\u201d) amended the complaint in the\nlawsuit entitled CAM Financial Services, Inc. v. General Star Nat\u2019! Insurance Co., et al., Civil\nAction No. 01-314 (S.D. Miss.) to add Fannie Mae as a party.\n\n4. I did not have any business interactions with any officer, director or other\nrepresentative from CAM Financial after December 20, 2001.\n\n5. I never made false and defamatory comments regarding Ms. Williams to any\nofficer, director or other representative from CAM Financial.\n\n6. [never discouraged CAM Financial from doing business with Ms. Williams.\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document33-6 Filed 06/21/2007 Page3of3\n\nI declare under penalty of perjury that the foregoing is true and correct. Executed on this \\S th of\n\n\\ op\nJune 2007 at Bethrads Wa\n\nRICHARD LAWC\n\nv\n\nbo\n","ocr_status":1,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:40:37-07:00","document_number":"33","attachment_number":5,"pacer_doc_id":"04501888996","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":2,"description":"Exhibit Exhibit D - Declaration of Richard Lawch","acms_document_guid":""},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686746/","id":2686746,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/33/6/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.687892-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:09.935350-08:00","sha1":"ecafbbd2a3058b02dc06af03cc1fa24a363a9d97","page_count":4,"file_size":87801,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.6.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.6.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":"Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-7 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 1 of 4\n\nEXHIBIT E\n\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-7 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 2 of 4\n\noe IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\n2 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF MISSISSIPPI\n3 SOUTHERN DIVISION\n4 2-02-2222 eee x\n\n5 CAM FINANCIAL SERVICES, INC., :\n\n6 Plaintiff, : Case No.1:01cv314BrR\n\n7 Vv.\n\n8 GENERAL STAR NATIONAL INSURANCE :\n\n9 COMPANY; GENERAL STAR INDEMNITY :\n\n10 COMPANY; GENERAL STAR MANAGEMENT:\n11 COMPANY, GENERAL RE CORPORATION;:\n12 GENERAL REINSURANCE CORPORATION;:\n13 CRUMP INSURANCE SERVICES OF : VOLUME II\n14 MEMPHIS, INC.; CRAIG OTT,\n\n15 INDIVIDUALLY AND IN HIS\n\n16 REPRESENTATIVE CAPACITY AS VICE:\n\n17 PRESIDENT OF GENERAL STAR\n\n18 MANAGEMENT COMPANY\n\n19 FEDERAL NATIONAL MORTGAGE\n\n20 ASSOCIATION\n\n21 (FANNIE MAB),\n\n22 Defendants.\n\n23 ---------------- x\n\n24 Washington, D.C.\n\n25 Friday, March 21, 2003\n\nMarch 21, 2003 FM of MAW Page 1\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.002104\n\f0000\n1\n\n2\n3\n\nA\n\n8\n\n9\n\n10\nli\n12\n13\n14\n15\n16\n17\n18\n19\n20\n21\n22\n23\n24\n25\n\nCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-7 \u2014 Filed 06/21/2007\n\n2\nContinued Videotape Deposition of\n\nMARIALICE WILLIAMS, a witness herein, called for\nexamination by counsel for Defendant Fannie Mae, in\nthe above-entitled matter, pursuant to subpoena, the\nwitness being duly sworn by SUSAN L. CIMINELLLI, a\nNotary Public in and for the District of Columbia,\ntaken at the offices of Steptoe & Johnson, 1330\nConnecticut Avenue, N.W., Washington, D.C., at\n9:41:17 a.m., Friday, March 21, 2003, and the\nproceedings being taken down by Stenotype by SUSAN L.\nCIMINELLI, CRR, RPR, and transcribed under her\ndirection.\n\nAPPEARANCES:\n\nOn behalf of the Defendant Fannie Mae:\nGERARD E. WIMBERLY, JR.,\nMcGlinchey Stafford PLLC\n643 Magazine Street\nNew Orleans, LA 70130\n(504) 586-1200\n\nMarch 21, 2003 FM of MAW\n\nPage 3 of 4\n\nPage 2\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.002105\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-7 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 4 of 4\n\n00226\n1 THE WITNESS: No, he never told me not to\n\n2 and I continued to until I left.\n\n3 BY MR. WIMBERLY:\n\n4 QQ. What did you do after you left?\n\n5 A. After [left, I attempted to work out\n\n6 employment arrangements with CAM Financial, who\n7 indicated an interest in bringing me on board shortly\n8 before I left Fannie Mae. But that did not work out.\n9 It did not result in an agreement between us. Sol\n10 then opened my own office.\n\n11 Q. When did you first discuss with CAM the\n12 possibility of joining them after you left Fannie\n\n13 Mae?\n\n14 A. In May of 1998.\n\n15 Q. Can you describe the occasions of that,\n\n16 the circumstances of that discussion in May 1998?\n17 A. The circumstances were that Bob asked me\n18 if [had any interest in working with CAM Financial.\n19 Q. And tell me everything you can remember\n20 about that discussion, please.\n\n21 A. believe it was fairly short. He simply\n\n22 asked me if I had an interest and I said I certainly\n23 did.\n\n24 Q. Did he call you up and ask you that or\n\n25 were you meeting face to face?\n\nMarch 21, 2003 FM of MAW Page 226\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.002329\n","ocr_status":1,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:47:59-07:00","document_number":"33","attachment_number":6,"pacer_doc_id":"04501888599","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":2,"description":"Exhibit Exhibit E - 3-21-2003 Williams Deposition Excerpts","acms_document_guid":""},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686747/","id":2686747,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/33/7/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.694460-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:09.952190-08:00","sha1":"c776a4f74af26149639e9a1138c032d941d0060a","page_count":74,"file_size":378128,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.7.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.7.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":"Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB   Document 33-8   Filed 06/21/2007   Page 1 of 74\n\n\n\n\n                         EXHIBIT F\n\f        Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB       Document 33-8    Filed 06/21/2007   Page 2 of 74\n\n                                Marialice Williams\n\n                                                                                    Page 132\n                UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\n\n                FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA\n\n   -------------------------x\n\n   MARIALICE BATHRUS             :\n\n   WILLIAMS,                     :\n\n               Plaintiff         : Civil Action No.\n\n                                 : 1:05CV01483\n\n   v.                            : Judge John Bates\n\n                                 : PAGES 132 through 312\n\n   FEDERAL NATIONAL              :\n\n   MORTGAGE ASSOCIATION, et :\n\n   al.,                          :\n\n               Defendants        :\n\n   -------------------------x VOLUME II\n\n             Continued Videotaped Deposition of\n\n                  Marialice Bathrus Williams\n\n                          Washington, DC\n\n                        Monday, May 7, 2007\n\n\n\n   Reported by:     Joanne Liverani, RMR\n\n   JOB NO.     180771\n\n\n\n\nEsquire Deposition Services                                   MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                         VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                           a77cbcf5-7ff0-478d-a5f4-3a9a93751c41\n\f           Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB       Document 33-8           Filed 06/21/2007                   Page 3 of 74\n\n                                    Marialice Williams\n                                          Page 133                                                                Page 135\n 1                                                         1      -and-\n 2                                                         2  Fannie Mae\n 3                                                         3    3900 Wisconsin Avenue, Northwest\n 4                       May 7, 2007                       4    Washington, DC 20016\n 5                       10:29 A.m.                        5    (202)752-6167\n 6                                                         6 BY: Jonathan Griffith, Esq.\n 7   Continued Videotaped Deposition of Marialice Bathrus 7\n 8   Williams, held at the offices of:                     8 Also Present:\n 9                                                         9    Edward Diggs, Videographer\n10      O'Melveny & Myers LLP                             10\n11      1625 Eye Street                                   11\n12      Washington, DC 20006                              12\n13                                                        13\n14   Pursuant to notice, before Joanne Liverani, RMR, a   14\n15   Notary Public of the District of Columbia.           15\n16                                                        16\n17                                                        17\n18                                                        18\n19                                                        19\n20                                                        20\n21                                                        21\n22                                                        22\n                                          Page 134                                                                Page 136\n 1   APPEARANCES:                                     1             CONTENTS\n                                                      2   EXAMINATION OF THE WITNESS:                      PAGE\n 2   For the Plaintiff, MARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS    3   Examination By Ms. Becker          138\n 3    Law Offices of Harley Jay Daniels               4   MARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS\n                                                      5   Deposition Exhibits          PAGE\n 4      303 Van Ness Street, Northwest                6   9    Bates stamp FNMA.MBW.008129 through         139\n 5      Suite W228                                            8133\n                                                      7\n 6      Washington, DC 20008                              10    one-page e-mail, Subject: Your 147\n 7      (202)468-7737                                 8        January 25, 2007 correspondence\n                                                      9   11    Bates stamp FNMA.MBW.008139 through         150\n 8   BY: Harley Jay Daniels, Esq.                              8144\n 9           -and-                                   10\n                                                          12    Amended Complaint                  185\n10      Brian Lederer, Esq.                          11\n11      3003 Van Ness Street, Northwest                 13      Plaintiff's Answers to Defendants'  198\n                                                     12        Interrogatories\n12      Washington, DC 20008                         13 14      Statement of Financial Affairs from 248\n13      (202)244-1715                                          the United States Bankruptcy Court,\n                                                     14        District of Columbia\n14                                                   15 15      Notice of Chapter 7 Bankruptcy Case, 254\n15   For the Defendants, FEDERAL NATIONAL MORTGAGE             Meeting of Creditors & Deadlines,\n                                                     16        United States Bankruptcy Court,\n16   ASSOCIATION, ET AL.                                       District of Columbia (DC)\n17    O'Melveny & Myers, LLP                         17\n                                                        16      2001 Form 1040, U.S.Individual Income 262\n18      1625 Eye Street, Northwest                   18        Tax Return for the witness\n19      Washington, DC 20006-4001                    19 17      2002 Form 1040, U.S.Individual Income 281\n                                                               Tax Return for the witness\n20      (202)383-5300                                20\n21   BY: Evelyn L. Becker, Esq.                           18    2003 Form 1040, U.S. Individual      298\n                                                     21        Income Tax Return for the witness\n22      Kyra A. Grundeman, Esq.                      22\n\n                                                                                      2 (Pages 133 to 136)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                                   MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                         VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                                     a77cbcf5-7ff0-478d-a5f4-3a9a93751c41\n\f                Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB             Document 33-8       Filed 06/21/2007      Page 4 of 74\n\n                                                 Marialice Williams\n                                                    Page 137                                                 Page 139\n 1                 VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning.                  1   here today?\n 2    Here begins videotape number one, Volume II of the        2       A Yes.\n 3    deposition of Marialice Bathrus Williams in the           3       Q If at any time during the day you feel\n 4    matter of Marialice Bathrus Williams versus Federal       4   that you're no longer able to give full and\n 5    National Mortgage Association, et al., in the             5   truthful testimony, will you please let me know\n 6    United States District Court for the District of          6   that?\n 7    Columbia. Case No. 1:05CV01483.                           7       A Yes.\n 8            Today's date is May 7th, 2007. The                8                MS. BECKER: 'd like to hand you\n 9    time is 10:29:14 a.m. This deposition is being            9   what will be marked by the court reporter as\n10    taken at the law firm O'Melveny & Myers at 1625 I        10   Exhibit 9.\n11    Street, Northwest, Washington, DC and is made at         11          Thank you.\n12    the request of Evelyn Becker of the law offices of       12       (Deposition Exhibit No. 9 - Bates stamp\n13    O'Melveny & Myers.                                       13       FNMA.MBW.008129 through 8133 - was marked for\n14            The videographer is Edward Diggs. The            14       identification.)\n15    court reporter is Joanne Liverani, here on behalf        15   BY MS. BECKER:\n16    of Esquire Deposition Services located at 1020 19th      16       Q Can you identify Exhibit 9?\n17    Street, Northwest, Washington, DC.                       17       A Exhibit 9 is a subpoena issued by the\n18            Would counsel and all present please             18   United States District Court in the matter of Cam\n19    identify yourselves and state whom you represent.        19   Financial Services, Incorporated versus General\n20                 MR. DANIELS: My name is Harley              20   Star National Insurance Company.\n21    Daniels. I represent the plaintiff.                      21       Q Who's the subpoena directed to?\n22                 MR. LEDERER: My name is Brian               22       A It is to me.\n                                                    Page 138                                                 Page 140\n1    Lederer. I represent the plaintiff.                      1         Q What is the date of the subpoena?\n2                MS. BECKER: Evelyn Becker, on                2         A The date is April 24th, 2002.\n3    behalf of Fannie Mae, Richard Lawch, and Grace           3         Q Do you recall receiving this subpoena?\n4    Huebscher.                                               4         A Yes.\n5                 MS. GRUNDEMAN: Kyra Grundeman,              5         Q Did you search for documents in response\n6    on behalf of Fannie Mae, Richard Lawch, and Grace        6     to this subpoena?\n7    Huebscher.                                               7         A Yes.\n8                 MR. GRIFFITH: Jonathan                      8         Q Did you produce documents in response to\n9    Griffith, on behalf of Fannie Mae.                       9     this subpoena?\n10       Thereupon,                                          10         A Yes.\n11           MARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS,                     11         Q I'd like to turn your attention to\n12   the Witness, called for examination by counsel for the  12     Page 8131 of this exhibit, which is the third page\n13   Defendants, and, after having been sworn by the notary, 13     in the exhibit.\n14   was examined and testified as follows:                  14             Under where it says \"documents\n15   EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE DEFENDANTS, FEDERAL 15          requested,\" can you tell me what the third category\n16   NATIONAL MORTGAGE ASSOCIATION, ET AL.                   16     of documents requested is?\n17   BY MS. BECKER:                                          17         A All documents that refer to or relate to\n18       Q Good morning, Ms. Williams.                       18     Fannie Mae.\n19       A Good morning.                                     19         Q Did you search for documents in response\n20       Q This is a continuation of your                    20     to document request number three?\n21   deposition from March 28, 2007. Do you feel that        21         A Yes, I did.\n22   you are able to give full and truthful testimony        22         Q Did you produce any documents that you\n                                                                                      3 (Pages 137 to 140)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                                      MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                            VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                                a77cbcf5-7ff0-478d-a5f4-3a9a93751c41\n\f           Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 33-8          Filed 06/21/2007       Page 5 of 74\n\n                                      Marialice Williams\n                                             Page 141                                                   Page 143\n 1   had in your possession relating to document request    1        Q Are you saying that you did less than an\n 2   number three?                                          2   exhaustive search in response to a subpoena issued\n 3       A I believe I did.                                 3   in the Cam litigation on April 24, 2002?\n 4       Q What is document request number six?             4        A If you notice -- if you notice the -- it\n 5       A All documents that constitute,                   5   says \"April 24, 2002.\" And it asks that this\n 6   represent, refer to, or relate to communications       6   information be retrieved by Friday, May 10th,\n 7   between you and anyone else regarding Fannie Mae.      7   2002. And I am certain that I searched very hard\n 8       Q Did you search for documents responsive          8   at that time, but I had documents in a -- in a\n 9   to document request number six?                        9   storage area. I had them in boxes in a garage. I\n10       A Yes, I did.                                     10   had them in my office. I'd had a computer crash\n11       Q Did you produce any documents that you          11   earlier.\n12   had in your possession in response to document        12           So I -- I -- I can tell you that I\n13   request number six?                                   13   searched through what I thought I had, and I\n14       A I believe I did.                                14   thought I'd given -- I gave whatever I could find\n15       Q What is document request number seven?          15   in that time frame.\n16       A All documents that constitute,                  16        Q What did you search for -- let me\n17   represent, refer to, or relate to communications      17   rephrase the question.\n18   between you and anyone employed or retained by        18           Where did you search for documents in\n19   Fannie Mae following the termination of your          19   response to the subpoena issued to you on -- on\n20   employment with Fannie Mae.                           20   April 24th, 2002?\n21       Q Did you search for documents in response        21        A Oh, I don't -- I -- I can't -- I can't\n22   to document request number seven?                     22   recall precisely.\n                                             Page 142                                                   Page 144\n 1        A Yes, I did.                                     1       Q Did you search in all the places that\n 2        Q Did you produce any documents that you          2   you just identified, including your --\n 3   had in your possession responsive to document          3       A I believe I did.\n 4   request number seven?                                  4       Q I'm sorry, if I could just finish my\n 5        A I -- I believe I did. I know that I             5   question. It'll make the record a little bit\n 6   delivered a doc -- a box of documents to Fannie Mae    6   easier.\n 7   which were never returned to me so I really can't      7           Did you search for documents that you\n 8   say what was in it and which of these it was           8   had on your computer?\n 9   specifically related to. So you're asking me about     9       A Yes, I did.\n10   these specifics, but I can't tell you whether or      10       Q Did you search for any documents you had\n11   not they were marked for these or whatever.           11   in storage?\n12        Q Would it be fair to say, though, that to       12       A Yes, I did.\n13   the extent you had documents in your possession       13       Q Did you search for any documents you had\n14   responsive to any of the documents requested in the   14   in your office?\n15   subpoena, dated April 24, 2002, that you produced     15       A Yes.\n16   those documents in the Cam litigation?                16       Q And did you produce any responsive\n17        A In April of 2002, I had a great deal of        17   documents that you found?\n18   mat -- things, boxes and materials in storage. And    18       A I produced a box of documents that I\n19   it was a very -- it was a transitional time in my     19   took to 3900 Wisconsin Avenue, Northwest, by the\n20   life, and I probably gave whatever I had at the       20   time it was requested. I cannot tell you precisely\n21   time that I could put my hands on. I can't tell       21   what was in that box, and those materials were\n22   you if it was exhaustive of what I possessed.         22   never returned to me.\n                                                                                  4 (Pages 141 to 144)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                                 MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                       VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                           a77cbcf5-7ff0-478d-a5f4-3a9a93751c41\n\f           Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 33-8          Filed 06/21/2007       Page 6 of 74\n\n                                      Marialice Williams\n                                             Page 145                                                    Page 147\n 1       Q Can you tell me whether you produced any         1           I only now understand how to back up\n 2   documents that you found that were responsive to       2   that information so you don't lose it.\n 3   the documents requested in the April 24, 2002          3       Q You testified that you had three\n 4   subpoena?                                              4   computer crashes. Can you tell me what the dates\n 5       A I believe they were all responsive to            5   of those three crashes were?\n 6   whatever the request was, but I cannot tell you        6       A One was approximately two years ago.\n 7   specifically what they were. I cannot tell you. I      7   One was approximately nin -- 2000, I believe, and\n 8   don't have them.                                       8   then I think one was in 2002 or '3. But I -- I\n 9       Q Do you have any reason to believe that           9   cannot say that for absolute certainty but those --\n10   there were documents in your possession as of April   10   that's what I'm remembering.\n11   or May of 2002 responsive to the documents            11                MS. BECKER: I'm handing you\n12   requested in the subpoena issued April 24, 2002       12   what I'll ask the court reporter to mark as\n13   that you did not produce in the Cam litigation?       13   Exhibit 10.\n14       A I think there may have been some records        14       (Deposition Exhibit No. 10 - one-page e-mail,\n15   that I may have found later.                          15       Subject: Your January 25, 2007\n16       Q Do you remember what those records were?        16       correspondence - was marked for\n17       A Whatever the balance of materials that I        17       identification.)\n18   produced in response to the defendants' request for   18                MS. BECKER: Exhibit 10 is an\n19   documents in this particular matter.                  19   e-mail sent to me, Kyra Grundeman, and Sarah\n20       Q So at some point in time you found              20   Goldfrank.\n21   additional documents beyond the documents that you    21                THE WITNESS: Mm-hmm.\n22   found when you searched in the April 2002 time        22   BY MS. BECKER:\n                                             Page 146                                                    Page 148\n 1   frame; is that correct?                                1       Q Do you recognize this e-mail?\n 2       A I believe that is correct.                       2       A Yes, it says what I just said except it\n 3       Q And did you produce those documents?             3   says two crashes instead of three.\n 4       A I produced those documents in response           4       Q Does this e-mail refresh your\n 5   to defendants' request for documents in this           5   recollection as to the date of the -- of two of the\n 6   matter.                                                6   crashes?\n 7       Q Between the two productions that you             7       A Yes, 2004 and 2001, I think I said that\n 8   made to Fannie Mae, did you produce all documents      8   pretty much. Close to that.\n 9   in your possession responsive to the April 24, 2002    9       Q So 2004 and 2001 are -- are two of the\n10   subpoena that you had in your possession as of        10   accurate dates; is that correct?\n11   April or May of 2002?                                 11       A I believe they are.\n12       A No. Well, yes and no.                           12       Q What was the third crash?\n13          Yes, I produced what I had. But there          13       A There may only have been two. I\n14   were many other e-mails, telephone records or         14   think -- I think there were two. 2001 and 2004. I\n15   whatever that I was not able to retrieve at two       15   think that's correct. I did have a laptop that\n16   different points in which -- actually, I've had       16   crashed but that was not as serious.\n17   three computer crashes in the last ten years, but     17       Q Did you keep documents on your laptop\n18   two of them during the time that I was working on     18   relating to Fannie Mae?\n19   this Fannie Mae product. So there would be e-mails    19       A Yes.\n20   I would not be able to retrieve, as well as           20       Q When did your laptop crash?\n21   documents that I would not be able to retrieve        21       A Let's see. Oh, gosh, actually there\n22   because they were only on that particular computer.   22   were two com -- two crashes. One was last year,\n                                                                                  5 (Pages 145 to 148)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                                  MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                        VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                            a77cbcf5-7ff0-478d-a5f4-3a9a93751c41\n\f           Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 33-8           Filed 06/21/2007      Page 7 of 74\n\n                                      Marialice Williams\n                                             Page 149                                                    Page 151\n 1   which would be 2006. And one would be, I think,        1   question --\n 2   around 2003 or '4. Yes --                              2                THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, are you\n 3       Q What documents --                                3   waiting for me?\n 4       A -- 2004.                                         4   BY MS. BECKER:\n 5       Q What documents relating to Fannie Mae            5       Q Can you identify Exhibit 11?\n 6   were stored on your laptop?                            6       A It's a subpoena for me to be deposed in\n 7       A I -- I can't say precisely but whatever          7   the Fannie Mae -- excuse me, in the Cam Financial\n 8   e-mails or materials that I had prepared for           8   Services and GenStar Insurance matter.\n 9   presentations to prospective insurance companies or    9       Q Did a deposition in fact take place on\n10   to various and large cross-section of potential       10   March 17, 2003?\n11   clients. And there would've been newsletters that     11       A I don't recall, but if that's the date\n12   I did explaining what type of structure we were       12   that's in here, it must have been the correct date.\n13   looking at for credit enhancement and that type of    13       Q Were you asked to produce documents in\n14   thing.                                                14   connection with that deposition?\n15       Q In response to the subpoena issued              15       A I didn't remember that I was, but I\n16   April 24, 2002, did you search for documents on       16   guess I was. Says here you as well as documents.\n17   your laptop?                                          17   Right. That's what it says.\n18       A I believe I did.                                18       Q Would you have searched for documents\n19       Q Did you produce any documents responsive        19   responsive to document -- documents requested in\n20   to the subpoena of April 24, 2002, that were on       20   the subpoena dated January 6th, 2003?\n21   your laptop, in the Cam litigation?                   21       A I really don't remember.\n22       A I -- I suspect those were generally             22       Q Do you have any reason to believe that\n                                             Page 150                                                    Page 152\n 1   duplicates of whatever was on my larger computer.      1   you didn't search for documents responsive to this\n 2   I generally didn't print from my laptop. I used it     2   subpoena?\n 3   largely for traveling.                                 3       A I'm sure I did. I just don't recall.\n 4       Q Between the documents on your laptop and         4       Q I'd like to direct your attention to\n 5   the documents on your main computer, would you have    5   Page 8142, which is Page 4 of Exhibit 11.\n 6   produced any documents relating to the April 24,       6           Do you see under number eight where it\n 7   2002 subpoena that were stored on either of those      7   defines the term \"MCRI\"?\n 8   computers?                                             8       A Yes.\n 9       A Oh, I'm sure that I would've used both           9       Q How does this subpoena define MCRI?\n10   of those sources to look for documents in response    10       A It says: Multifamily credit risk\n11   to the sus -- subpoena.                               11   insurance, multifamily collateral replacement\n12       Q And you would've produced any that you          12   insurance or similar devices.\n13   had in your possession; is that correct?              13           I know what MCRI is 'cause I created it.\n14       A I would have produced what I had on             14       Q Can you explain to me what MCRI is?\n15   those two computers at that time.                     15       A Certainly. It is a form of credit\n16                MS. BECKER: I'd like to hand             16   enhancement which enables a -- an -- a company that\n17   you what I will ask the court reporter to mark as     17   is selling a portfolio of mortgage loans to Fannie\n18   Exhibit 11.                                           18   Mae in exchange for -- well, excuse me, as\n19       (Deposition Exhibit No. 11 - Bates stamp          19   exchanging mortgage loans for mortgage-backed\n20       FNMA.MBW.008139 through 8144 - was marked for     20   securities. And in those transactions, Fannie Mae\n21       identification.)                                  21   generally requires, once those loans are reviewed\n22                MR. DANIELS: Is there a                  22   and those properties are reviewed, a certain level\n                                                                                  6 (Pages 149 to 152)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                                   MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                         VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                            a77cbcf5-7ff0-478d-a5f4-3a9a93751c41\n\f           Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 33-8           Filed 06/21/2007      Page 8 of 74\n\n                                      Marialice Williams\n                                             Page 153                                                    Page 155\n 1   of -- of credit risk is assessed, not just credit      1   in those transactions where affordable housing\n 2   risk, other real estate risk and other risk is         2   deals were being done with market -- with tax\n 3   assessed against that portfolio. And once it is        3   credits. So we were going to use it on everything,\n 4   determined how much that risk is, there's a certain    4   including the May 2001 DUS proposal.\n 5   percentage with respect to the actual amount of the    5       Q I'd like to ask you to turn to the next\n 6   mortgage loans themselves which must be set aside      6   page of the document, under document request number\n 7   traditionally to cover the losses on those loans       7   seven. Can you identify document request number\n 8   during the lifetime of those mortgage-backed           8   seven?\n 9   securities.                                            9       A All documents that refer to or relate to\n10           What I created was, for the first time        10   any type of mortgage collateral insurance,\n11   in the multifamily securitization marketplace, as I   11   including but not limited to, MCRI, environmental\n12   had done with other things I had created for Fannie   12   hazard insurance, single family credit risk\n13   Mae, in this particular instance what I did was I     13   insurance, single family collateral replacement\n14   was able to take the responsibility for the loss      14   insurance, or captive insurance.\n15   coverage outside of the pool of mortgages so that     15       Q As you sit here today do you believe\n16   when Fannie Mae actually issued the securities, all   16   that you searched for documents in response to\n17   of the securities were issued at AAA plus, and the    17   document request number seven in connection with\n18   credit enhancement or the loss coverage piece was     18   the January 6, 2003 subpoena?\n19   an independent insurance policy, which was designed   19       A I believe I did look for information on\n20   to cover any losses on those loans during the         20   all of those things.\n21   lifetime of that mortgage-backed security.            21       Q Would you have produced those documents\n22           And so that's why we called it                22   if you had them in your possession?\n                                             Page 154                                                    Page 156\n 1   \"multifamily,\" meaning pools of multifamily            1       A Whatever was in my possession I would\n 2   mortgage loans, credit risk insurance, because it      2   have produced. Which was not everything I did,\n 3   was in fact insuring against the losses that would     3   just what I had in my possession.\n 4   be associated with any of those mortgage loans         4       Q What would you have done that you did\n 5   during the lifetime of the security, which would be    5   not have in your possession?\n 6   occasioned -- those losses would be occasioned by      6       A As I stated earlier in this deposition,\n 7   the parameters of what's described within the          7   there were considerable number of e-mails,\n 8   Fannie Mae credit model, which I had a fortunate       8   telephone calls I would not have had in my\n 9   opportunity to have a great deal of input on.          9   possession. There would even have been strategy\n10       Q You'll recall in your last deposition we        10   papers and other things which would have been\n11   talked about your May 2001 proposal. Do you -- do     11   created and put in the computer, which I would not\n12   you remember that?                                    12   necessarily have had access to. And again, I think\n13       A Yes, we did talk about that. That was a         13   there were a number of places in storage where I\n14   DUS-related proposal.                                 14   may not have seen that there were boxes that may\n15       Q Does MCRI, as you've described it,              15   have related to Fannie Mae.\n16   relate to your May 2001 proposal?                     16          So there -- there are any number of ways\n17       A MCRI relates to every single type of            17   in which whatever I gave in response to this may\n18   proposal that I took to Fannie Mae, including the     18   not have been an exhaustive, although I attempted\n19   DUS proposal, affordable housing, even the            19   to locate everything, it may not have been as\n20   insurance of environmental losses; it ran the whole   20   exhaustive as it might have been.\n21   gamut, even in the terms of their equity program,     21       Q With respect to the e-mails and strategy\n22   substituting an insurance policy rather than cash     22   papers that you believe you may have had, is the\n                                                                                  7 (Pages 153 to 156)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                                  MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                        VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                            a77cbcf5-7ff0-478d-a5f4-3a9a93751c41\n\f           Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 33-8          Filed 06/21/2007       Page 9 of 74\n\n                                      Marialice Williams\n                                             Page 157                                                    Page 159\n 1   reason that you would not have had those in your       1   so forth, and it was packed to the rafters.\n 2   possession relating to the computer crashes that       2           My mother died. I had all of her things\n 3   you've already testified about?                        3   that I had moved in there. It was just very\n 4        A Computer crashes, yes, and loss of              4   difficult to see what was in that garage and to\n 5   storage documents. I had a storage bin on U Street     5   really get -- find one box.\n 6   which -- and I was doing a lot of traveling at the     6           Because of that situation, records were\n 7   time because of personal reasons and -- to help out    7   ruined, a -- a $10,000 rug of my mother's was\n 8   someone in my family, and somehow in there my          8   ruined. All kinds of things happened in that\n 9   possessions were taken into custody by the storage     9   garage, but that was the deterioration that\n10   people and sold at some auction which I did not       10   occurred in that garage.\n11   know anything about. And I was unable to retrieve     11           Okay. So then I moved from there into\n12   anything from that.                                   12   where I'm moving -- where I'm living now, and I\n13        Q When were your possessions taken from          13   store boxes in a storage area. Meanwhile, it's\n14   the storage unit?                                     14   very difficult to keep up with what's -- so what\n15        A In 2006, I believe it was. Or maybe it         15   you keep close to you is what you're work --\n16   was 2005. August of 2005 or 2006, early June --       16   working on currently, which is a great deal of\n17   January, February, March, in that area.               17   what -- is what I produced when it was time to\n18        Q So those documents in your storage unit        18   respond to defendants' request for documents in\n19   on U Street would have been there in the 2002 and     19   this case.\n20   2003 time frames; is that correct?                    20           I did have an opportunity then to pull a\n21        A Some of them might have been. Well,            21   lot of things out that I had not seen before. But\n22   I'll go into great detail so you will understand      22   then I also did lose that storage area. So that's\n                                             Page 158                                                    Page 160\n 1   the complexity of my storage situation.                1   the -- the story of my storage and boxes, and\n 2           When I left Fannie Mae in 1998, I took         2   that's as well as I can put it.\n 3   an office at the Watergate office building. I          3       Q In response to the 2002 and 2003\n 4   began working in earnest to do a project with          4   subpoenas, did you search the storage area?\n 5   Fannie Mae and kept documents and everything in        5       A Yes, I did.\n 6   that office for some length of time. In 2001,          6       Q And did you produce any documents that\n 7   right after 9/11, the -- I remember having a           7   were in the storage area?\n 8   computer crash, then 2001, a number of documents       8       A I don't recall.\n 9   that we might have ordinarily stored, due to the       9       Q Do you have any reason to believe you\n10   fact that we were all aware that the insurance        10   didn't produce the documents that were in the\n11   market had dried up a number of things that I was     11   storage area?\n12   working on, we disposed of at the time we moved out   12       A No, I don't. No.\n13   of the office building at the Watergate.              13       Q As far as e-mails that you would've had\n14           When I was living at the Watergate as         14   with Fannie Mae, would those have been generally\n15   well, during that time, I had a storage area,         15   kept on your computers?\n16   because I was living in a co-op, and I had moved      16       A Yes.\n17   out of a house.                                       17       Q Is the only reason that you would not\n18           So I had huge numbers of boxes at that        18   have had those e-mails in your possession based on\n19   storage area. I had boxes in my office. I had --      19   the computer crashes that you've already described?\n20   then I -- then I moved and I tried to consolidate     20       A Yes.\n21   in -- back into a house and had a huge garage there   21       Q When did you move out of the Watergate?\n22   in which I put a great deal of papers and boxes and   22       A I believe it was -- I have -- I -- I\n                                                                                  8 (Pages 157 to 160)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                                  MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                        VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                            a77cbcf5-7ff0-478d-a5f4-3a9a93751c41\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 33-8           Filed 06/21/2007      Page 10 of 74\n\n                                      Marialice Williams\n                                             Page 161                                                    Page 163\n 1   don't have it with me. Either 2001 or 2002. I          1   Watergate?\n 2   believe it was 2001.                                   2        A Yes, I did.\n 3        Q Do you remember when in 2001?                   3        Q Did you have a home in the Watergate?\n 4        A I filed bankruptcy. I had to sell my            4        A Yes, I did.\n 5   property and pay off my business debts I had           5        Q Did you vacate both the -- both the home\n 6   acquired from trying to do business with Fannie        6   and the office at the same time?\n 7   Mae. I think it was around 2000 -- 2001 or 2002.       7        A Yes, I did.\n 8           I just cannot remember precisely when it       8        Q Do you recall when the Cam litigation\n 9   was. I just can't.                                     9   was filed?\n10        Q How did --                                     10        A No, I don't.\n11        A It's on -- should be on my tax records,        11        Q Do you have any recollection of when you\n12   I think. It should be on my forms I gave to           12   first knew about the Cam litigation?\n13   somebody here.                                        13        A Let's see. It would have to have been\n14        Q How does the timing of your bankruptcy         14   prior to May -- April 24th, 2002.\n15   relate to when you moved out of the Watergate?        15        Q Was the subpoena that you received in\n16        A Well, I could no longer afford to live         16   the Cam litigation the first that you had heard of\n17   there. I could no longer afford to have an office     17   the Cam litigation?\n18   in the Watergate. I didn't get any of the business    18        A Of the litigation, yes.\n19   I thought I was going to get from Fannie Mae, and     19        Q What was your involvement in the Cam\n20   so I had to move.                                     20   litigation?\n21        Q Did you move before or after you filed         21        A I didn't have any involvement in the Cam\n22   bankruptcy?                                           22   litigation except as a -- as a person who was\n                                             Page 162                                                    Page 164\n 1        A I moved after I filed bankruptcy.               1   deposed because I probably had more information\n 2        Q How long after?                                 2   about the product that was under -- in question\n 3        A No. I moved before I filed bankruptcy.          3   than anyone else. It was five, I think, five or\n 4   I think I moved in 2001 and filed bankruptcy in        4   six or seven very grueling days.\n 5   2002. I spent the -- the balance of my retirement      5       Q Did anyone from Fannie Mae ever contact\n 6   funds from Fannie Mae just eking out a living          6   you about the Cam litigation?\n 7   through the next year and then filed bankruptcy.       7       A No. Yes -- well, Fannie Mae's\n 8            When I sold my unit at the Watergate, I       8   representative, yes.\n 9   had to pay off a $200,000 business debt I had          9       Q Who was that?\n10   acquired which became -- meant that I virtually had   10       A His name was Gerard Wimberly.\n11   no -- nothing left on the sale because I had to       11       Q And Mr. Wimberly is with the McGlinchey\n12   split it with my mother who was the joint owner of    12   Stafford firm; is that correct?\n13   the apartment with me.                                13       A Correct.\n14        Q Did you move out of the Watergate after        14       Q What was the reason that Mr. Wimberly\n15   September 11, 2001?                                   15   contacted you, as you recall?\n16        A Yes. I believe so.                             16       A He contacted me prior to serving me with\n17        Q Was it shortly thereafter or --                17   any documentation, having me served, about\n18        A I just don't recall and I -- I would           18   defending Fannie Mae -- Fannie Mae's position\n19   like to tell you. I'm trying to think if I have       19   against Bob Jones from Cam Financial.\n20   anything in my possession that would let me know.     20       Q Was he asking for your cooperation in\n21   I just don't recall when it was.                      21   defending Fannie Mae's position against Bob Jones?\n22        Q Did you have office space in the               22       A Yes.\n                                                                                  9 (Pages 161 to 164)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                                 MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                       VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                            a77cbcf5-7ff0-478d-a5f4-3a9a93751c41\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 33-8           Filed 06/21/2007      Page 11 of 74\n\n                                      Marialice Williams\n                                             Page 165                                                    Page 167\n 1        Q What was your response?                         1   whatever it took to try to keep Bob Jones from\n 2        A My attorney at the time, Julia Williams,        2   getting the business he might have deserved.\n 3   spoke to him and I -- I'm not certain exactly what     3        Q Why would Mr. Lawch have done that, in\n 4   she said, but I believe she told him that -- I         4   your view?\n 5   don't remember what she told him.                      5        A Because he didn't like Bob Jones and he\n 6        Q Were you willing to cooperate in                6   didn't -- and I think Richard was very torn because\n 7   defending Fannie Mae's position against Bob Jones?     7   he had pad -- virtually paid no attention to the\n 8        A I did not believe that Fannie Mae               8   development of this entire product, and then once\n 9   treated Bob Jones in a fair manner based on my         9   it turned out that it was something really good, he\n10   personal involvement in Bob Jones's development of    10   was very reluctant not to try to take, you know,\n11   MCRI along with me.                                   11   credit for it. He wanted the -- you know, to be\n12        Q Did you make that known to Fannie Mae?         12   the -- the lead person, but he didn't have any\n13        A I made that known to Fannie Mae before I       13   knowledge about how it was done. So he basically\n14   left Fannie Mae because I had been asked about the    14   just went at the whole thing all wrong, but --\n15   exact same issue before I left, as well as being      15                 MR. DANIELS: Speak up.\n16   asked about it in the deposition.                     16                 THE WITNESS: Mm?\n17        Q Do you remember the time frame in which        17                 MR. DANIELS: Speak up. You\n18   you were contacted by Mr. Wimberly?                   18   were trailing off in your answer. Please.\n19        A It was just prior to this subpoena being       19                 THE WITNESS: Yes, he -- Richard\n20   issued, I believe.                                    20   was -- it was common knowledge how Richard felt\n21        Q So that would've been in the winter or         21   about Cam, and it was pretty common knowledge how\n22   early spring of 2002?                                 22   he felt about me generally, too. But in this --\n                                             Page 166                                                    Page 168\n 1       A Correct.                                         1   that instance, I was working there and since I had\n 2       Q And did you make it known to Fannie Mae          2   been consistently producing products that enabled\n 3   that you were not willing to cooperate in --           3   Fannie Mae to compete effectively in the secondary\n 4       A I told Fannie Mae I would cooperate with         4   marketplace, Richard wasn't really able to do\n 5   them as -- as it was required by me of the law. I      5   anything more than simply limit my compensation,\n 6   believe that's what we said, and I did cooperate.      6   et cetera.\n 7       Q Do you remember whether Fannie Mae               7           So -- but he did call Bob Jones several\n 8   wanted to meet with you?                               8   times a redneck, quite a few times. He just really\n 9       A Yes.                                             9   had great contempt for him.\n10       Q Did you meet with Fannie Mae?                   10   BY MS. BECKER:\n11       A No.                                             11        Q You said it was common knowledge how he\n12       Q Why not?                                        12   felt about you?\n13       A Because they made it clear that, you            13        A Mm-hmm.\n14   know, that -- you know, they didn't have anything     14        Q And how did he feel about you?\n15   to offer me. They weren't -- still weren't            15        A Yes.\n16   attempting to, you know, do the right thing with      16           Richard and I did not have a good\n17   me, so I didn't see what there was to -- to gain      17   relationship after a time at Fannie Mae. He was\n18   except to be honest and truthful about what I         18   fond of telling people that I had withheld\n19   remembered and what I knew. And I knew that Fannie    19   information from him when he arrived, and I never\n20   Mae had acted in a certain manner toward Bob Jones,   20   understood what he meant. But I did unfortunately\n21   and I knew that they were going to -- as long as      21   meet one of his prior employers and I mentioned to\n22   Richard Lawch was in charge, he was going to do       22   him that I didn't, and from that day forward,\n                                                                                 10 (Pages 165 to 168)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                                  MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                        VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                            a77cbcf5-7ff0-478d-a5f4-3a9a93751c41\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 33-8           Filed 06/21/2007      Page 12 of 74\n\n                                      Marialice Williams\n                                             Page 169                                                    Page 171\n 1   Richard was very unkind to me.                         1   that information to anyone else.\n 2        Q And that was while you were at --               2       Q Was --\n 3   working at Fannie Mae?                                 3       A It was a corporate environment.\n 4        A Yes.                                            4       Q Who's the prior employer that you're\n 5           But I always thought he respected my           5   referring to?\n 6   ability. But he didn't really.                         6       A A law firm that he worked for.\n 7        Q At what point did you believe that he           7       Q What's the name of the law firm?\n 8   respected your ability?                                8       A I don't recall the name of it.\n 9        A I believe he respected my ability when I        9       Q When did Mr. Lawch become aware that you\n10   was able to convince Rob Levin, who was at that       10   were aware of his relationship with this law firm?\n11   time the -- responsible for the business side of      11       A I spoke at a -- at a -- an American Bar\n12   Fannie Mae, when I convinced him to assign someone    12   Association conference to a session that was -- a\n13   from the REMIC office to the multifamily division     13   panel that was put together by an African-American\n14   so that we could jointly have Fannie Mae issue the    14   man who was attempting to do business at Fannie Mae\n15   first senior subordinate securities ever. And at      15   at the time in the affordable housing area. And\n16   that time, I -- Richard was still relatively new,     16   while I was at that conference, I virtually ran\n17   and he was a little more cooperative. And product     17   into this other person whom I had known when he was\n18   development at Fannie Mae takes a very long time,     18   a freshman at Harvard. And he asked me what I was\n19   and we were on a very fast track and we were able     19   doing and I told him I'm -- was working at Fannie\n20   to do it and able to accomplish that particular       20   Mae and that I had a new vice president and -- gave\n21   task.                                                 21   him his name. And he said, oh, he used to work for\n22           And then over time, I think, it -- the        22   me.\n                                             Page 170                                                    Page 172\n 1   personal side of the relationship, based on, you       1          And when I left that conference and went\n 2   know, your typical dog-eat-dog kind of environment,    2   back to my office, I said to Richard, oh, I met,\n 3   I had several people working for me and Richard        3   you know, someone you used to work for. And that's\n 4   managed to change that working relationship, and       4   when I think things started to go downhill.\n 5   those people then began to report directly to          5       Q Who was this person?\n 6   Richard and that was fine, you know. I still -- I      6       A Chuck Hamilton.\n 7   still created and -- and developed new products for    7       Q And when was the conference?\n 8   Fannie Mae to make a lot more money, so I was happy    8       A Oh, I really -- sometime after Richard\n 9   to be able to do that and to bring in the -- the       9   arrived at Fannie Mae, and I can't really recall\n10   kind of product I thought Fannie Mae ought to be      10   when that was. Let's see.\n11   securitizing.                                         11          I can't recall when that was.\n12        Q Do you believe that Mr. Lawch's view of        12       Q Was this while you were still working at\n13   you changed at some point in time?                    13   Fannie Mae?\n14        A I think it changed at some point in            14       A It was -- oh, absolutely. Yes.\n15   time, and I think it was exactly when I mentioned     15       Q Did Mr. Hamilton express to you\n16   it; when he was made aware that I knew his prior      16   something negative about Mr. Lawch?\n17   employer, and he knew if I knew his prior employer,   17       A Yes.\n18   what his prior employer was going to say about him.   18       Q What was that?\n19   And therefore I think he felt somewhat concerned      19       A I guess I could summarize it by saying\n20   that I would know that information. And I'm           20   he didn't think he was a very good lawyer.\n21   certain he would be concerned like everyone else      21       Q Did he express anything else negative\n22   would in their job whether or not I would impart      22   about Mr. Lawch?\n\n                                                                                 11 (Pages 169 to 172)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                                  MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                        VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                            a77cbcf5-7ff0-478d-a5f4-3a9a93751c41\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 33-8           Filed 06/21/2007       Page 13 of 74\n\n                                      Marialice Williams\n                                             Page 173                                                    Page 175\n 1       A No. Just that he was let go by that              1   town, something important is going to happen at the\n 2   comp -- by that firm.                                  2   conference.\n 3       Q Why did you tell Mr. Lawch about your            3           I happen to run into Deborah McKinnon,\n 4   meeting with Mr. Hamilton?                             4   and Deborah was a director also and responsible in\n 5       A Because I had been to a conference that          5   the multifamily division for the disposal of\n 6   Fannie Mae had authorized me to go to, and knowing     6   properties. And I said to Deborah I was excited\n 7   how small the world is, it would've gotten back to     7   that I was going out of town, and she said you\n 8   Richard one way or the other that I had met Chuck,     8   can't go out of town, and I said why not. And she\n 9   so I decided to tell him that I met Chuck. He was      9   said because you're getting an award for your MCRI\n10   very familiar with Richard, his family -- he knew     10   product. I said, oh, gee, I just told Richard I\n11   his wife, you know. It wasn't a casual                11   was leaving town.\n12   relationship.                                         12           And so when I got to the -- I -- I did\n13       Q Did Mr. Lawch have any reaction to being        13   go to the ceremony, and as Bob Jones stated in his\n14   told about your meeting with Mr. Hamilton?            14   deposition and as everyone at Fannie Mae will tell\n15       A Not initially, no.                              15   you, I pretty much created that product by myself,\n16       Q Did he have a reaction at some point            16   with a lot of people's help, but I clearly was the\n17   later?                                                17   person who worked on it on a day-to-day basis. And\n18       A I believe he did.                               18   Mr. Lawch arranged it so that I would not get an\n19       Q What was that reaction?                         19   individual award, which would probably have been\n20       A I believe he simply started to treat me         20   about $10,000. Instead, he made it a team award.\n21   in a less respectful manner.                          21   And when I rose to get the team award when it was\n22       Q When did that begin?                            22   announced, the people at my table yelled in unison,\n                                             Page 174                                                    Page 176\n 1       A After I told him about Chuck Hamilton.           1   what team? Which I found rather interesting that I\n 2   And I don't recall, as I said, the year that that      2   wasn't the only person who took offense that -- but\n 3   occurred, but it was after the time that Mr. Lawch     3   I did not mention anything to Mr. Lawch about it,\n 4   came to Fannie Mae and before I left there in 1998.    4   but I did get my $1,500 reward.\n 5   And I was in the multifamily division from 1990        5           And then Mr. Lawch began to give me\n 6   until 1998.                                            6   reviews that were not reflective of my productivity\n 7       Q Did Mr. Lawch's treatment of you in a            7   at Fannie Mae. And I don't think there's anyone at\n 8   less respectful manner start while you were still      8   Fannie Mae who knew my productivity who would agree\n 9   working at Fannie Mae?                                 9   with Mr. Lawch's assessment. He virtually said I\n10       A Yes.                                            10   could not write. That I thought more of myself\n11       Q Can you describe what he did to treat           11   than anyone else. And such mean and unbecoming\n12   you in a less respectful manner?                      12   things of a vice president of Fannie Mae as I've\n13       A Yes. The -- probably the biggest thing,         13   ever seen. And this was all while I was producing\n14   which was really very hurtful, was that there was     14   products that were enabling Fannie Mae to play a\n15   no question when I created MCRI that I was going to   15   substantial role in the secondary market in a\n16   get some kind of award.                               16   productive and competitive way.\n17           Well, at the sales and marketing              17           So it just became a personal matter.\n18   conference at Fannie Mae, it's a really big deal      18   And I loved my job so much at Fannie Mae, I was not\n19   when you get an award there. Number one, I was        19   going to let his feelings and his issues affect me\n20   getting ready to go out of town the particular        20   and my productivity. And I would not have left\n21   weekend of that conference and Mr. Lawch was aware    21   there had I not thought Fannie Mae was not going to\n22   of that. He did not say to me, don't go out of        22   ultimately live up to her commitment to me to give\n\n                                                                                 12 (Pages 173 to 176)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                                  MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                        VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                            a77cbcf5-7ff0-478d-a5f4-3a9a93751c41\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 33-8           Filed 06/21/2007       Page 14 of 74\n\n                                      Marialice Williams\n                                             Page 177                                                    Page 179\n 1   me the business that I had developed.                  1        A I don't think I was the only\n 2       Q Why do you think that Mr. Lawch turned           2   African-American person at Fannie Mae who felt that\n 3   against you and decided to make your business          3   he had an issue with African-American people. We\n 4   relationship with him personal?                        4   knew -- we knew, for example, that certain\n 5       A I believe he's human, like any other             5   attitudes had to exist within his home, because his\n 6   person, and I believe that personal embarrassment      6   children expressed very interesting thoughts about\n 7   that he may have felt at someone actually knowing      7   black people and slaves and so forth. And if you\n 8   his history may have caused him to do whatever he      8   ask Betty Dance, I'm sure she'll give you the whole\n 9   did.                                                   9   litany on what it was like being there with him and\n10       Q Do you believe that he treated you              10   his children being so disrespectful. And there --\n11   differently while you were at Fannie Mae based on     11   and I would say any other black person that was\n12   your race?                                            12   there at the time could tell you.\n13       A Yes.                                            13        Q Did you talk to other African-Americans\n14       Q And what's that based on?                       14   while you were at Fannie Mae about Mr. Lawch?\n15       A That's based on, number one, what he did        15        A I talked to a lot of African-Americans\n16   about my award; number two, the way that he treated   16   and a lot of women who gravitated to my office\n17   me with respect to my supervisory responsibilities;   17   frequently about EEO issues. And my recommendation\n18   number three, when he -- Mr. -- Mr. Lawch, for        18   was always to people, talk to the person that\n19   example, was such a poor manager that he had -- was   19   you're involved in the situation with because you\n20   required to go to classes that involved him           20   have to remember that if you file an EEO complaint,\n21   becoming more sensitive to employees and with         21   you better be sure you're going to win it because\n22   respect to women and racial issues.                   22   otherwise your career is going to be over here.\n                                             Page 178                                                    Page 180\n 1           And he -- if -- if somebody's not doing        1   And that had been proven time and time again.\n 2   well in a position, if I wasn't doing well as a        2           And it was not easy for\n 3   supervisor, I would've thought I should've been        3   African-Americans and women in the levels at Fannie\n 4   given the same courtesy as everybody else; well,       4   Mae where I was to survive unless you had a mentor\n 5   give me some training that would make me a better      5   who was at a much higher level who was willing to\n 6   one, not just, you know, invite my staff into your     6   help you and -- and push your career along. It did\n 7   office and pal around with them and play golf in       7   not matter whether you were productive, smart,\n 8   your office, putt in your office with them.            8   intelligent or anything. It only mattered who your\n 9           And -- you know, and I mean it was a           9   mentor was and if you had someone to -- to champion\n10   real -- and I was the one excluded from the           10   your cause.\n11   knowledge of whatever was going on in the office.     11       Q Do you feel that you had a mentor or\n12   He excluded me from discussions about the business,   12   someone to champion your cause at Fannie Mae?\n13   and I was the director for capital markets. And he    13       A No. At Fannie Mae the tasks were given\n14   had his little cronies and his pets and that's the    14   out for assignments that could either make or break\n15   way it worked, and that's the way it works in         15   your career. And there was no question who was\n16   corporate America and there's nothing anybody can     16   getting the good assignments.\n17   do about that. But he definitely had a preference     17           I made my mark at Fannie Mae because I\n18   for certain people, and they certainly weren't        18   created the concepts that I developed, and\n19   black.                                                19   therefore was fortunate enough to -- to have some\n20       Q Why do you attribute this to the race of        20   impact on -- in -- in the sense of change at Fannie\n21   the people that he was dealing with as opposed to     21   Mae. But I was not given the assignments that --\n22   him simply being a poor manager?                      22   that were the achievements of my career, from day\n\n                                                                                 13 (Pages 177 to 180)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                                  MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                        VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                            a77cbcf5-7ff0-478d-a5f4-3a9a93751c41\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 33-8           Filed 06/21/2007      Page 15 of 74\n\n                                      Marialice Williams\n                                             Page 181                                                    Page 183\n 1   one, including creating the first data -- database     1   certainly lured me by saying they were going to put\n 2   that gave you consistent information on pools of       2   me on their board, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera,\n 3   multifamily mortgages. I mean that was my -- you       3   but you know, it wasn't going to matter one way or\n 4   know, I created that with $65,000. Show me             4   the other. I knew that there was a great deal more\n 5   anybody's system that can be done for that price       5   to be done in the marketplace on this product, and\n 6   now. Took them $3 million to upgrade it.               6   that I had the capability of doing it and would do\n 7          So I know I had to have some kind of --         7   it with Cam or with ever -- whomever else had the\n 8   of capacity there. But I did not get assignments       8   ability to finance the -- the amount of time that\n 9   because I was get -- they were handed to me. I         9   it would take to do the product development.\n10   made my way at Fannie Mae.                            10       Q Did you file an internal complaint of\n11       Q Why did you leave Fannie Mae?                   11   discrimination while you were at Fannie Mae?\n12       A I left Fannie Mae because I had a long          12       A I certainly did not.\n13   conversation with Lou Hoyes, and told him that I      13       Q Why not?\n14   was so happy that we had issued the first             14       A Because I had watched what happened to\n15   securities based on this MCRI concept, and that it    15   people who did file complaints. Been there for a\n16   was going to make a huge difference for the           16   long time.\n17   communities I was concerned about, which were the     17       Q Did you tell anybody at Fannie Mae that\n18   inner cities, or the rural areas where mortgages      18   you believed that Mr. Lawch treated you differently\n19   tended to be smaller and less -- less than standard   19   based on your race?\n20   according to Fannie Mae's underwriting, and that I    20       A Certainly.\n21   thought that I would take that opportunity, become    21       Q Did you tell anybody at Fannie Mae that?\n22   an insurance broker and do the MCRI business. And     22       A Certainly.\n                                             Page 182                                                    Page 184\n 1   he assured me that, you know, that would not be an     1       Q Who did you tell at Fannie Mae?\n 2   issue, that we would continue to work together.        2       A I had that conversation frequently with\n 3   And that is why I left Fannie Mae.                     3   one of the vice president -- one of the -- I can't\n 4           And he specifically said to me, are you        4   remember what level he was. In credit policy there\n 5   leaving Fannie Mae for something or are you leaving    5   were quite a few people that I was very close to\n 6   because you don't want to be here? And he then         6   there. I also discussed it with people within the\n 7   also said to me, if you do want to stay here, I can    7   multifamily division who were African-American.\n 8   change your supervisory person to be Wendell Johns     8           I don't believe I mentioned it to anyone\n 9   tomorrow. I can do that. To which I said to him,       9   white, but -- yes, I did, Stuart Levy. Who was\n10   I have been trying to explain to you about Richard    10   also in credit policy.\n11   Lawch for a long time. I'm sorry that you waited      11       Q Who's the most senior person that you\n12   until this moment, but my mind's made up. I have      12   told at Fannie Mae?\n13   the opportunities. I really want to go out and see    13       A I think I told vice president for\n14   that this product gets out into the marketplace,      14   diversity, Maria Johnson.\n15   that Fannie Mae can start to do the kind of           15       Q What was Ms. Johnson's reaction?\n16   affordable housing program on the capital markets     16       A Same as mine; well, don't file a\n17   side that I felt it should be doing according to      17   complaint because that's the end of your career.\n18   its charter. And so I left.                           18       Q Were those Ms. Johnson's exact words?\n19        Q Did you leave understanding you would          19       A Or something to that effect, yes. I've\n20   have a position with Cam Financial?                   20   known her a long time. I introduced her to Rob\n21        A I wasn't certain that I was going to           21   Levin. He hired her because I introduced him to\n22   have a position with Cam Financial. They had          22   her.\n                                                                                 14 (Pages 181 to 184)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                                  MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                        VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                            a77cbcf5-7ff0-478d-a5f4-3a9a93751c41\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB         Document 33-8           Filed 06/21/2007      Page 16 of 74\n\n                                     Marialice Williams\n                                            Page 185                                                    Page 187\n 1       Q When did you have this conversation with        1       A Yes, it is.\n 2   Ms. Johnson?                                          2       Q And your understanding is this is the\n 3       A I don't recall. Probably all the way            3   operative complaint in the case; is that correct?\n 4   through 'til 1998 when I left. From the time she      4       A Correct.\n 5   arrived until the time I left.                        5       Q I'd like to ask you to look at\n 6                MS. BECKER: Can we go off the            6   Paragraph 19 of the complaint on Page 7.\n 7   record for a few minutes.                             7       A Mm-hmm.\n 8                VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record at          8       Q Can you read that?\n 9   11:38:36.                                             9       A In June 1998 Plaintiff Williams left the\n10       (Thereupon, a recess was taken.)                 10   employment of Fannie Mae pursuant to a negotiated\n11                VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record at          11   settlement agreement which ostensibly resolved\n12   11:54:19.                                            12   issues of alleged unlawful discrimination and\n13   BY MS. BECKER:                                       13   retaliation on the bases of race and sex charges\n14       Q I'm handing you what will be marked as         14   which have been stated by Plaintiff Williams prior\n15   Exhibit 12.                                          15   to her departure from Fannie Mae employment in\n16       (Deposition Exhibit No. 12 - Amended             16   which constituted protected activities as defined\n17       Complaint - was marked for identification.)      17   by the civil rights laws of the United States.\n18                MR. DANIELS: May I take up a            18       Q Did you make allegations of unlawful\n19   preliminary matter before you continue your          19   discrimination and retaliation on the basis of race\n20   questioning? Today we handed you certain copies      20   and sex prior to leaving Fannie Mae?\n21   of -- of Ms. Williams' tax records, and I want to    21       A Yes, I did.\n22   be certain that we are giving them to you under a    22       Q Who did you make those allegations to?\n                                            Page 186                                                    Page 188\n 1   confidentiality agreement. Will they be used only     1       A I made them to Tom Nieds (ph), I believe\n 2   in connection with this litigation and not            2   was his name, who was the first person who was\n 3   shared -- the same confidentiality agreement we       3   charged with working out my settlement agreement\n 4   signed when we -- when you gave us your documents?    4   for my departure from Fannie Mae.\n 5                MS. BECKER: I'm going to need            5       Q Who is Tom Nieds?\n 6   to consult with my client before we make a final      6       A That's a good question. I don't really\n 7   decision on that. We will -- we'll discuss that       7   know who he is, what -- where he came from or what\n 8   later in the deposition before we take up those       8   his claim to fame is. He certainly didn't ever do\n 9   records.                                              9   anything I ever thought was particularly\n10                MR. DANIELS: Okay. But I -- I           10   significant. He was just an officer and somebody's\n11   handed them over in good faith that we would agree   11   friend. What kind of -- I think he was Jim\n12   to this confidentiality. I should've raised it       12   Johnson's friend. Or Jim Johnson's wife's friend\n13   before I gave them to Sarah earlier today.           13   or something like that.\n14   BY MS. BECKER:                                       14       Q What were the allegations of\n15       Q Ms. Williams, can you identify                 15   discrimination and retaliation on the basis of race\n16   Exhibit 12?                                          16   and sex that you made to Mr. Nieds?\n17       A Yes, it is the amended complaint in the        17       A I told him that I thought that the\n18   civil action of Marialice Bathrus Williams versus    18   settlement agreement that they were offering me was\n19   the -- Fannie Mae, Richard Lawch, and Grace          19   absolutely not reflective of my contributions to\n20   Huebscher.                                           20   Fannie Mae, and that the offer was basically the --\n21       Q This is the complaint that you filed; is       21   what was -- if you were getting ready to be\n22   that correct?                                        22   terminated for cause from Fannie Mae, you pretty\n                                                                                15 (Pages 185 to 188)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                                 MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                       VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                           a77cbcf5-7ff0-478d-a5f4-3a9a93751c41\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB         Document 33-8           Filed 06/21/2007       Page 17 of 74\n\n                                     Marialice Williams\n                                            Page 189                                                    Page 191\n 1   much got the settlement that I got, whether you'd     1        Q Who did you call?\n 2   ever produced anything or not. And at that point I    2        A I called Brian Lederer.\n 3   just simply said to him, you know, I -- you know,     3        Q Did Mr. Lederer represent you in\n 4   white people leave here and they don't get this       4   relation to the settlement agreement that you\n 5   kind of settlement. You know, they get an enhanced    5   negotiated with Fannie Mae in June of 1998?\n 6   settlement and all I'm getting is this. And number    6        A Yes.\n 7   two, you wouldn't even extend the time for me to      7        Q Other than Mr. Lederer, did you talk to\n 8   exercise my options, which meant I was -- I was       8   anybody else about your settlement agreement?\n 9   going to have a huge taxable event. You know, I       9        A I think I called Tom White, who had been\n10   mean just little petty crap they could've been       10   a senior vice president for multifamily. I -- I\n11   nicer about.                                         11   believe I called him because I was just so stunned\n12          But again, you know, I'm sure Mr. Nieds       12   at the offer, but I -- I -- I can't tell you\n13   was taking his instructions from Mr. Lawch, and he   13   honestly what -- I thought I had called Tom White.\n14   sure didn't care. And didn't care about my           14        Q Did you talk to anybody else about your\n15   accomplishments and eventually was taken off the     15   settlement agreement?\n16   negotiations. Someone else was put on it.            16        A I don't think so.\n17       Q Do you believe that Mr. Lawch was behind       17        Q I'd like to turn your attention to\n18   the original settlement offer?                       18   Paragraph 51 of the complaint. Do you remember a\n19       A Yes.                                           19   meeting on the subject of captive insurance\n20       Q And you believe that that original             20   companies?\n21   settlement offer was the product of discrimination   21        A Yes. Had several. Before and after I\n22   and retaliation by Mr. Lawch?                        22   left Fannie Mae.\n                                            Page 190                                                    Page 192\n 1        A Yes.                                           1        Q What meetings did you have before you\n 2        Q Did Fannie Mae subsequently make you a         2   left Fannie Mae?\n 3   different offer?                                      3        A Before I left Fannie Mae I had meetings\n 4        A No. They modified it to some extent but        4   with the credit officers in credit policy with the\n 5   not much.                                             5   division, Fannie Mae members of the multifamily\n 6        Q Was the modification an enhancement of         6   division, with -- I brought in -- prior to the\n 7   your compensation under the settlement agreement?     7   merger with Marsh Mac, oh, Lord, I forgot the name.\n 8        A Modest amendment, mod -- modest.               8   There was another major insurance brokerage which\n 9        Q My question is: Was the modest                 9   merged with Marsh Mac and we brought in very, very,\n10   amendment giving you more money than you had         10   very high-level officials from Marsh Mac, GenStar,\n11   originally been offered?                             11   and other place and a couple of other places, very\n12        A It was giving me a little more than           12   high-level individuals, to discuss the basic\n13   someone who was about to be terminated from the      13   concept of captive insurance. And then I wrote a\n14   company.                                             14   proposal following that meeting to Fannie Mae. I\n15        Q Do you remember when these negotiations       15   was still an employee at the time.\n16   with Mr. Nieds took place, in relation to when you   16          Then over the next few years, a\n17   left Fannie Mae?                                     17   significant number of developments occurred which\n18        A In June of 1998.                              18   made it far more feasible for corporations like\n19        Q Do you remember when in June?                 19   Fannie Mae to form captive insurance companies\n20        A No, I think it took the whole month of        20   because an Internal Revenue Service opinion came\n21   June. I met with him several times and then I had    21   out that in fact captive insurance companies are\n22   to call a lawyer.                                    22   true insurance companies, and therefore the\n\n                                                                                16 (Pages 189 to 192)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                                 MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                       VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                           a77cbcf5-7ff0-478d-a5f4-3a9a93751c41\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 33-8           Filed 06/21/2007      Page 18 of 74\n\n                                      Marialice Williams\n                                             Page 193                                                    Page 195\n 1   expenses of operating that insurance company were      1   securities and banking. And Kate is an\n 2   deductible by the owner. Even though it might've       2   international expert on captives and was discussing\n 3   been a subsidiary of Fannie Mae, it could -- it        3   the concept that we had that either Fannie Mae\n 4   could still deduct those expenses, et cetera,          4   could own a captive and rent out cells to various\n 5   et cetera.                                             5   individuals so that they use their own individual\n 6           And because of that -- my friend Harvey        6   captive cell as a credit enhancement or Fannie Mae\n 7   Hartsfield and I had been extremely active with the    7   would simply have the option of utilizing credit --\n 8   DC office of insurance, securities, and -- DISB,       8   the -- the captive for credit enhancement for\n 9   insurance, securities, and banking, and I had          9   itself and charging the customers for that service.\n10   explained the concept to them. I'd gone back to       10       Q Were there any materials handed out at\n11   Fannie Mae and explained that the DC had the -- a     11   the meeting?\n12   new captive law and that we would prefer to use the   12       A Yes, I know that we did di -- diagrams\n13   captive in DC if we were going to pursue this.        13   because it's a -- a somewhat complicated --\n14           We had a gentleman from Atlanta, whose        14   somewhat complex structure in that you have\n15   name is escaping me, plus Bob Jones, all of us were   15   several, quite a few parties. You have a\n16   pursuing this concept of captive insurance            16   reinsurer, you have -- and -- and we had done\n17   companies, either being located in the Cayman         17   diagrams with arrows and so forth indicating the\n18   Islands, the Virgin Islands, which also had a new     18   actual process of securitization utilizing this\n19   captive insurance law, and the District of            19   captive insurance as -- as a credit enhancement\n20   Columbia. And those discussions continued, my         20   vehicle.\n21   discussions on that still continuing to the           21       Q Was that done in something like a\n22   present, but with Fannie Mae certainly until, as      22   PowerPoint presentation?\n                                             Page 194                                                    Page 196\n 1   far as I can remember, into 2002 and beyond.           1       A I think we used a PowerPoint as well\n 2       Q You reference a particular meeting here          2   as -- no, I think we had hard copy in that meeting.\n 3   in Washington, DC?                                     3   And -- but they were depictions of our whole -- our\n 4       A Mm-hmm.                                          4   whole concept. Our whole captive insurance\n 5       Q Who was -- who was at that meeting?              5   concept. And we talked about the various parties\n 6       A The individuals listed there: Harvey             6   and clients of ours whom we had discussed the\n 7   Hartsfield, Kate Westover, Grace Huebscher, Rhoda      7   concept with.\n 8   Newman. There was an attorney whom I did not know.     8           Because again, you know, you can't just\n 9   I thought her name was Carol or Carolyn. She was       9   come to Fannie Mae with an idea, you have to come\n10   new to Fannie Mae at that time, relatively new, and   10   with the whole package. So you've got a lot of\n11   she was serving as counsel. And I had been            11   product development to do prior to -- to going to\n12   instructed to work through Rhoda Newman as the        12   Fannie Mae and certainly prior to presenting any\n13   staff contact person for any business I had. And      13   transaction utilizing a particular structure.\n14   those were the people who were at the meeting.        14       Q I'd like to turn your attention to\n15       Q What occurred at the meeting?                   15   Paragraph 53 of the complaint.\n16       A Kate Westover and Harvey Hartsfield and         16           What happened after that meeting to make\n17   I made an add -- an additional presentation to        17   you believe that you had been blackballed by Fannie\n18   Fannie Mae about the feasibility of using the DC as   18   Mae?\n19   a captive jurisdiction, largely because the           19       A I really didn't get any further com --\n20   implementing regulations for DC were being written    20   communication or correspondence from them after\n21   by Kate. We had recommended her to Larry Mirel,       21   attempting to contact them. I still continued to\n22   who at the time was the commissioner for insurance    22   cc Fannie Mae on e-mails regarding the development\n                                                                                 17 (Pages 193 to 196)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                                  MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                        VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                            a77cbcf5-7ff0-478d-a5f4-3a9a93751c41\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 33-8           Filed 06/21/2007       Page 19 of 74\n\n                                     Marialice Williams\n                                             Page 197                                                    Page 199\n 1   of that concept. But I think by then Bob Jones had     1        A I believe they are.\n 2   amended his complaint to include Fannie Mae,           2        Q I'd like to direct your attention to\n 3   because as I recall, initially Fannie Mae was not a    3   your answer to interrogatory number one. Is your\n 4   party to the Cam litigation. Initially it was only     4   answer to interrogatory number one complete or is\n 5   GenStar and GenRe, which were failing to -- to         5   there any additional information that you believe\n 6   honor the confidentiality agreement and exclusivity    6   is responsive to the question posed in interrog --\n 7   agreement that he had with them.                       7   interrogatory number one?\n 8           But then I believe the judge said that         8        A You said is that my --\n 9   Fannie Mae was an indispensable party, given that      9        Q Is your answer to interrogatory number\n10   she was actually distributing the funds that were     10   one complete or is there any additional information\n11   going to these various places and -- and were --      11   that you would like to add to your answer?\n12   and had knowledge of the agreements that Bob and      12        A In the second paragraph of my answer on\n13   Cam had with these companies.                         13   Page 1, it says: It was the actions, not the\n14                MS. BECKER: Let's go off the             14   statements, that made me aware that Fannie Mae was\n15   record for just a minute.                             15   excluding me from the pool of insurance brokers.\n16                VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record at          16          And I'd have to say that based on that,\n17   12:13:57.                                             17   the actions, right, it was the actions that made me\n18       (Thereupon, at this point in the proceedings      18   know.\n19       a luncheon recess was taken.)                     19        Q You referred to a statement by Richard\n20                VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record at           20   Lawch that he was, quote, working with an\n21   1:16:18.                                              21   international broker for doing some insurance\n22                MS. BECKER: Ms. Williams, I'm            22   business for the MBS pools.\n                                             Page 198                                                    Page 200\n 1   handing you what I'll ask the court reporter to        1          Do you see that?\n 2   mark as Exhibit 13.                                    2       A Mm-hmm. Yes.\n 3        (Deposition Exhibit No. 13 - Plaintiff's          3       Q How does that support your claims in\n 4        Answers to Defendants' Interrogatories - was      4   this case?\n 5        marked for identification.)                       5       A Mr. Lawch was fully aware that I was\n 6                MR. DANIELS: Before we -- did             6   capable of doing the business that Fannie Mae\n 7   you get an answer on the tax returns? Did you --       7   wanted to do, using the insurance concept that I\n 8                MS. BECKER: Let -- let's cover            8   had developed. He was fully aware that I had left\n 9   it -- when -- before we get to the tax returns.        9   Fannie Mae in order to pursue the insurance\n10                MR. DANIELS: Okay.                       10   business, with respect to MCRI, and therefore when\n11   BY MS. BECKER:                                        11   I approached him and he said that he had hired a,\n12        Q Do you recognize that document?                12   quote/unquote, international broker, I knew that\n13        A Yes.                                           13   what he was saying was that he was looking at\n14        Q What is it?                                    14   someone other than me for doing that business, and\n15        A Plaintiff's Answers to Defendants'             15   I knew that the person was Craig Ott, who is a\n16   Interrogatories in the case of Marialice Bathrus      16   white man, and I am a black woman. And I know that\n17   Williams versus Fannie Mae, et al.                    17   I knew much more than Craig Ott will ever know\n18        Q Did you prepare these interrogatory            18   about anything related to Fannie Mae or ins -- or\n19   responses?                                            19   the MCRI business, and therefore I knew that that\n20        A With my attorney. Attorneys.                   20   was a discriminatory remark. That he was selecting\n21        Q Are these interrogatory responses              21   a white man with no experience or knowledge over\n22   accurate?                                             22   me, a black person, to do the aggregation business.\n\n                                                                                 18 (Pages 197 to 200)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                                  MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                        VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                            a77cbcf5-7ff0-478d-a5f4-3a9a93751c41\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 33-8           Filed 06/21/2007      Page 20 of 74\n\n                                      Marialice Williams\n                                             Page 201                                                    Page 203\n 1        Q How many insurance deals did you do             1   was asked to write this letter was that Fannie Mae\n 2   while you were at Fannie Mae?                          2   was continuing to do business with Cam Financial,\n 3        A I closed the very first deal at Fannie          3   not just old business, but new business with Cam\n 4   Mae, was working on a second one when I left. I        4   Financial. And it's business that they could have\n 5   closed my deal with Metropolitan just before I left    5   done with me, which I did not know then. I thought\n 6   Fannie Mae.                                            6   Fannie Mae was asking me to write this letter to\n 7        Q So you closed one deal while you were at        7   say that I was not in business with Bob Jones in\n 8   Fannie Mae?                                            8   order to -- because they were concerned that Bob\n 9        A One deal using MCRI, while I was at             9   would get business through me, when in reality Bob\n10   Fannie Mae, yes.                                      10   was already getting business through Fannie Mae\n11        Q When did you start working on that deal?       11   that I was not included in.\n12        A Three years before it closed, and I left       12       Q How does that demonstrate that Fannie\n13   in '98, so it was probably be -- about '95, '94,      13   Mae tortiously interfered with your relationship\n14   maybe even '93.                                       14   with Cam?\n15        Q When did you first become a mortgage           15       A Well, if they're telling me I'm can't --\n16   broker?                                               16   I'm not to do business with Cam, they're giving me\n17        A I'm not a mortgage broker.                     17   the impression that Cam is undesirable and someone\n18        Q When did you first get your insurance          18   with whom they would not want to do business, when\n19   broker's license?                                     19   in reality they were doing business with Cam,\n20        A The summer after I left Fannie Mae. I          20   business that at that point I would be completely\n21   believe it was around August of 1998.                 21   excluded from because the relationship was between\n22        Q Do you still have that license?                22   Cam and Fannie Mae.\n                                             Page 202                                                    Page 204\n 1       A No, I don't.                                     1       Q How did that affect your relationship\n 2       Q When did the license expire?                     2   with Cam?\n 3       A I think it was about two years ago.              3       A It meant that I could not do business\n 4       Q So that would've been 2005?                      4   with Cam if I wanted to continue to work with\n 5       A I believe it was 2005. I'm not                   5   Fannie Mae, which turned out to be a joke anyway,\n 6   absolutely certain.                                    6   since Fannie Mae never did anything with me. It\n 7       Q How many insurance transactions have you         7   was just one more stalling technique, one more\n 8   brokered since you left Fannie Mae?                    8   tactic that Richard and his crew designed to\n 9       A None.                                            9   exclude me from the business that I had created,\n10       Q I'd like to turn your attention to              10   which is one more obfuscation of the real point,\n11   interrogatory number two and your answer.             11   which was we're not going to do this business with\n12           I'd like to ask you to refer to what was      12   Marialice; we are just going to lead her on. And,\n13   previously marked as Exhibit 2, which I believe the   13   oh, today we'll get her -- to write a letter that\n14   court reporter has.                                   14   she doesn't work with Cam. Oh, tomorrow we'll ask\n15       A This says Exhibit 1.                            15   her some -- to do something else.\n16       Q If you turn to Exhibit 2. Is Exhibit 2          16           And that's the way it went. On and on\n17   the letter that you're referring to in your answer    17   and on 'til I was broke. And no business. And you\n18   to interrogatory number two?                          18   can look in my tax returns and see that I relied on\n19       A Yes.                                            19   them, that I spent my entire settlement trying to\n20       Q How does this -- how does Exhibit 2             20   do this business with Fannie Mae.\n21   support your tortious interference claim?             21       Q Does Exhibit 2 accurately describe your\n22       A What I did not know at the time that I          22   relationship with Cam?\n                                                                                 19 (Pages 201 to 204)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                                  MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                        VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                            a77cbcf5-7ff0-478d-a5f4-3a9a93751c41\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB         Document 33-8           Filed 06/21/2007      Page 21 of 74\n\n                                     Marialice Williams\n                                            Page 205                                                   Page 207\n 1        A Yes, it does. At that point.                   1   don't know how much of it -- I don't know how much\n 2        Q I'd like to ask you to look at                 2   went to Craig Ott. I just don't know.\n 3   interrogatory number three. And in particular,        3           I guess we could go to Bond Buyer and\n 4   your response on Page 3. Are you calculating your     4   find out, find out how many aggregation pools.\n 5   damages at $22 million?                               5       Q I'd like you to look at your answer to\n 6        A No. That's -- I didn't ask for                 6   interrogatory number seven.\n 7   $22 million. I believe I asked for more than that.    7       A Mm-hmm.\n 8   That was just on the DUS program. After I read all    8       Q Was your co-brokerage agreement with Cam\n 9   the documents that Fannie Mae provided, you know,     9   Financial ever reduced to writing?\n10   it turned out that they did a great deal of          10       A Ever?\n11   business other than DUS business. They did not do    11       Q Reduced to writing?\n12   the DUS business; they did other business with       12       A I believe we did have a one-pager that\n13   insurance. And I believe when I get the answers      13   said simply exactly what was in here. We'll just\n14   from Fannie Mae I'll know how much that is, and it   14   split the insurance if we do a deal together.\n15   certainly is a lot more than 22 million.             15       Q Did you produce that one-pager?\n16        Q So your understanding is that Fannie Mae      16       A I -- I don't remember. I think I did.\n17   did not do DUS business; is that correct?            17   Yes, yes, I did produce I think a number of\n18        A My understanding is that they didn't.         18   iterations of it, and I think I produced it in the\n19   But I wouldn't know. They never told me the truth    19   document request from Fannie Mae.\n20   about anything.                                      20           And I believe it's the same thing I\n21        Q I'd like to ask you to look at                21   described in here, in this other Exhibit 2 over\n22   interrogatory number five. Do you stand by that      22   here.\n                                            Page 206                                                   Page 208\n 1   answer or -- or do you wish to amend your response    1       Q You're referring to Exhibit 2?\n 2   in any way?                                           2       A Yes.\n 3        A I believe that that is an accurate             3       Q We've been unable to locate a written\n 4   response because I don't know how much business       4   document that would be a co-brokerage agreement\n 5   Fannie Mae gave -- gave to Craig Ott precisely. I     5   between you and Cam in your discovery responses.\n 6   don't know how much business they gave to Bob         6   Would you be willing to allow your attorneys to\n 7   Jones. I don't know the complete answer to that.      7   direct us to the production number of the document\n 8           All I know is there's an aggregation          8   that you're referring to?\n 9   product on the market. It is anonymous as to who      9       A I believe the last -- my last deposition\n10   the broker may have been on the deals, and           10   you gave me as an exhibit a co-brokerage agreement\n11   therefore I cannot say how much business was given   11   between Cam and myself. You handed it to me and\n12   to Craig Ott, but Fannie Mae certainly knows how     12   marked it as an exhibit.\n13   much they gave to Craig Ott, and they certainly      13       Q Can you identify it?\n14   know how much they gave to Bob Jones. And in the     14                MR. DANIELS: You think it was\n15   information that was given to me or, excuse me,      15   Bob Jones's deposition that that happened?\n16   that Mr. Daniels and Mr. Lederer's law clerk gave    16                THE WITNESS: No, it was the\n17   to them regard -- from -- that was taken from the    17   last time I was here.\n18   Bob Jones/Cam Financial case, there were certain     18                MR. DANIELS: Okay.\n19   indications as to how much business Fannie Mae was   19                THE WITNESS: There was a\n20   doing in both aggregation and on the regular MCRI    20   document that someone handed me. It was -- and\n21   business, and it -- indications were that it was     21   said --\n22   a -- a very substantial amount of money. And I       22                MR. DANIELS: I think the\n                                                                               20 (Pages 205 to 208)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                                MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                      VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                          a77cbcf5-7ff0-478d-a5f4-3a9a93751c41\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 33-8           Filed 06/21/2007       Page 22 of 74\n\n                                      Marialice Williams\n                                             Page 209                                                    Page 211\n 1   question was whether --                                1        A No, if -- if it's not here then -- and I\n 2   BY MS. BECKER:                                         2   didn't give it to you in the other -- then -- then\n 3        Q I'm sorry. Ms. Williams, can you review         3   maybe it's not. Maybe it's lost. But I thought\n 4   the exhibits from your -- the previous day of your     4   there was one signed and I thought we had given it\n 5   deposition and see if you can identify that            5   to you. But I could be mistaken.\n 6   document?                                              6           And by that time Bob was giving me the\n 7        A Those are here?                                 7   runaround just like Fannie Mae was 'cause they were\n 8        Q Yes.                                            8   all lying and stealing and not paying me anything,\n 9        A Well, here's one right here at                  9   and I had created the whole thing. So I guess\n10   Exhibit 4, unsigned. And then here's one I think      10   maybe we didn't sign one in final. It's all just a\n11   that Harvey mailed to them, that's exhibit --         11   big runaround. I was the only one that took it\n12   excuse me, it's Page 10546 to Danny Groves from       12   seriously.\n13   Harvey Hartsfield. These were -- and that's           13        Q Are you able to identify the exact terms\n14   January 14th, 2002. And that's -- you know, we        14   of the co-brokerage agreement that you allegedly\n15   kept trying to go at it to try and get something      15   had with Cam?\n16   that we could all agree with.                         16        A In Exhibit 2 I have described it, and I\n17           And let's see, there's another one here       17   don't think there's any better description. I've\n18   at 10548/49. That one's unsigned as well. I           18   also shown you in Exhibit 3 and 4 that there were\n19   thought we had a one -- perhaps we never did sign     19   several instances, and I told you that the\n20   a -- a final one, but I -- I thought we had.          20   agreement is pretty much exactly what Exhibit 4\n21   Perhaps I'm mistaken.                                 21   says: That if we do any business together, there\n22                 MR. DANIELS: What was the               22   will be a 50/50 split between the two of us. And\n                                             Page 210                                                    Page 212\n 1   question that was on the table, please. Could you      1   that was pretty much the extent of the agreement.\n 2   go back?                                               2           And you could have that agreement with\n 3                 MADAM REPORTER: Sure. The                3   any broker, anywhere, any day of the week, any\n 4   original question?                                     4   time. It's just a very simple, plain, clear 50/50\n 5                 MR. DANIELS: Yes. The one                5   split on commissions.\n 6   that --                                                6       Q So in the event that you did a deal with\n 7        (The reporter read the record as requested.)      7   Fannie Mae, the co-brokerage agreement meant that\n 8                 MR. DANIELS: And the answer.             8   you would have to split any proceeds with Cam\n 9                 THE WITNESS: The --                      9   50/50?\n10        (The reporter read the record as requested.)     10       A If I did what?\n11                 THE WITNESS: And that's pretty          11                MS. BECKER: Can you read back\n12   much what these agreements say, with some other       12   the question.\n13   language. But I -- if there was a signed one and      13       (The reporter read the record as requested.)\n14   it's not in here, then it's probably that I can't     14                THE WITNESS: Not necessarily.\n15   locate the signed copy. I thought we did actually     15   Depended on who the insurance company was. If it\n16   have a signed agreement. Because as late as 2002,     16   was an insurance company that I had an exclusive\n17   Bob Jones and I went to Baltimore to meet with a --   17   arrangement with, no, I wouldn't have to split\n18   a major rated insurance company to talk more about    18   anything with Bob. If Bob located the insurance\n19   both MCRI as well as captive insurance/reinsurance.   19   company, certainly I would have to split that with\n20   BY MS. BECKER:                                        20   him, and that's -- it's just a standard kind of a\n21        Q Do you have any evidence of a signed           21   co-brokerage agreement, which I explained in here\n22   co-brokerage agreement between you and Cam?           22   to Fannie Mae: It's just a plain co-brokerage\n                                                                                 21 (Pages 209 to 212)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                                  MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                        VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                            a77cbcf5-7ff0-478d-a5f4-3a9a93751c41\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 33-8           Filed 06/21/2007       Page 23 of 74\n\n                                      Marialice Williams\n                                             Page 213                                                    Page 215\n 1   agreement.                                             1   years, spending every dime I had doing product\n 2           You could sometimes in the insurance           2   development, in order to see that Fannie Mae\n 3   business split commission with somebody you never      3   adhered to its chartered obligation by doing\n 4   seen or heard of in your entire life. It'd just        4   affordable housing loans, which was what my whole\n 5   depend on who -- would depend on who was the           5   point was of my whole program. But they weren't\n 6   procurer of the actual insurance itself.               6   particularly interested in doing that business\n 7   BY MS. BECKER:                                         7   anyway.\n 8       Q In what way did Fannie Mae interfere             8           So that's where I am on this. You\n 9   with your co-brokerage agreement with Cam?             9   can -- I'm sure you can imagine my frustration. I\n10       A Fannie Mae interfered with my                   10   don't understand it any more than you do. I don't\n11   relationship with Cam Financial by saying that they   11   understand why they had me write the letter. I\n12   sen -- essentially did not want me doing business     12   don't understand why Bob Jones lied. I don't\n13   with them. That is why I was asked to write this      13   understand why Fannie Mae lied about what they were\n14   letter, which I wrote, which is in here, which        14   doing. I don't understand it either. I just know\n15   basically says to Cam Financial, you know, Fannie     15   that I'm the one that wound up being hurt and\n16   Mae doesn't want you doing business with Cam          16   having no money and no business.\n17   Financial.                                            17       Q So fundamentally your claim related to\n18           And for two people who had been working       18   the co-brokerage agreement is that Fannie Mae\n19   together for five years, it was a little bit          19   didn't do any business with you; is that fair to\n20   strange to have somebody come out of left field and   20   say?\n21   ask you to write that kind of letter. I don't know    21       A That's right.\n22   what their motivation was. But it certainly did       22       Q I'd like to ask you to look at your\n                                             Page 214                                                    Page 216\n 1   destroy what -- whatever relationship I had with       1   answer to interrogatory number nine.\n 2   Cam at that point, because obviously Fannie Mae --     2                VIDEOGRAPHER: Excuse me,\n 3   and then Fannie Mae wasn't even being truthful then    3   Ms. Becker, but we are about to run out of tape.\n 4   because they weren't going to give me any business     4           This is the end of videotape number one\n 5   whether I was doing it with Bob or not. But I did      5   of the testimony of Marialice Bathrus Williams, May\n 6   not know that at the time, and I also did not know     6   7th, 2007. Off the record at 1:45:40.\n 7   they were still doing business with Bob, which is      7       (Discussion held off the record.)\n 8   why it doesn't all make sense at all.                  8                VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the\n 9          So you wonder what kind of subterfuge or        9   videotape tape number two, Volume II, of the\n10   crap they are handing you when you -- you know,       10   testimony of Marialice Bathrus Williams, May 7th,\n11   you're told to do one thing and then you discover     11   2007. On the record at 1:50:54.\n12   later on, well, they told you not to do business      12   BY MS. BECKER:\n13   with them, but then they weren't doing business       13       Q I'd like to ask you to look at your\n14   with you, but then they were doing business with      14   answer to interrogatory number nine. What phone\n15   him. And -- so was it that they didn't want you to    15   conversations between you and Bob Jones are you\n16   do business with him 'cause you'd get part of what    16   referring to?\n17   they're getting. Or did they not want Bob to get      17       A Conversations with Bob Jones regarding\n18   something you might get. Well, obviously that         18   business he was doing with Fannie Mae that I was\n19   wasn't true because they weren't giving you           19   not aware of. And he indicated in one of those\n20   anything.                                             20   conversations that, you know, he evidently had the\n21          So, you know, it was -- it was me              21   same kind of discussion with Fannie Mae that I had\n22   spinning around like a whirling dervish for several   22   about not doing business with him, but for some\n                                                                                 22 (Pages 213 to 216)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                                  MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                        VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                            a77cbcf5-7ff0-478d-a5f4-3a9a93751c41\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 33-8           Filed 06/21/2007      Page 24 of 74\n\n                                      Marialice Williams\n                                             Page 217                                                    Page 219\n 1   reason he was still getting business, and I was        1   they were trying to convince insurers or reinsurers\n 2   not.                                                   2   to participate in this particular type of insurance\n 3       Q What did he tell you that led you to             3   program. And likewise, if -- if there was\n 4   believe that Fannie Mae was discouraging Cam           4   something that I needed on the insurance side,\n 5   Financial from doing business with you?                5   the -- one of the consultants that we worked with\n 6       A He said, I don't think Fannie Mae wants          6   on the -- in -- on the captive insurance was a\n 7   to do business with you.                               7   personal friend of Cam Financial, so we started\n 8       Q Did he say that Fannie Mae was                   8   using Cam Financial in order to access this\n 9   discouraging Cam from doing business with you?         9   particular individual. It was prior to the time\n10       A Yes.                                            10   that we started working with Kate Westover.\n11       Q What did he say in that regard?                 11   BY MS. BECKER:\n12       A Cam didn't want Fannie -- him to do             12       Q Do you remember when your conversation\n13   business with me.                                     13   with Bob Jones took place?\n14       Q I'm sorry, can you repeat that?                 14       A I can't remember the exact dates, but it\n15       A Fannie -- Fannie Mae did not want Cam           15   was 2002/2003. Late into the game, after we\n16   Financial to do business with me.                     16   were -- late into the game, 2002/2003.\n17       Q What specifically did he say about that?        17       Q How do you recall that?\n18       A Fannie Mae did not want Cam Financial to        18       A Because it didn't -- I didn't know\n19   do business with me.                                  19   really until that time that -- well, really\n20       Q What business were you doing with Cam           20   honestly, 2005/2006, and 2006 I really learned the\n21   Financial at that time?                               21   extent of Cam's relationship with Fannie Mae. And\n22       A I -- I think we've gone through this            22   I repeated to Mr. Jones that I was just absolutely\n                                             Page 218                                                    Page 220\n 1   whole litany of things that I tried to do with Cam     1   shocked at the amount of business that they had\n 2   Financial and Fannie Mae and then I was asked not      2   done with Fannie Mae, at which time he reiterated\n 3   to do business with Cam Financial, Cam Financial       3   that, well, you know, Fannie Mae just didn't want\n 4   was asked not to do business with me. I still had      4   to do business with you, didn't want us to do\n 5   to continue to try to do business. I -- I mean I'm     5   business with you.\n 6   not sure of what answer you want or are looking for    6       Q You said that he reiterated that?\n 7   because I can't remember what your question was,       7       A Mm-hmm.\n 8   really.                                                8       Q That's Mr. Jones?\n 9               MS. BECKER: Can you read back              9       A Mr. Jones, yes.\n10   the question.                                         10       Q And when is the first time that he said\n11       (The reporter read the record as requested.)      11   that?\n12               THE WITNESS: I was -- Cam                 12       A We had the discussions initially when I\n13   Financial and I were visiting various insurance       13   received the e -- e-mail from Betty Dance in 2001\n14   companies together, depending upon who had the        14   about the DUS proposal. But we had so many other\n15   contact. It was often that I had the knowledge.       15   things on the table, of course, I just assumed that\n16   It was known that I had the knowledge of the          16   that was only about the DUS proposal and that\n17   secondary market and that I had the knowledge of      17   perhaps Fannie Mae still was sincere since it did\n18   the processes and functions at Fannie Mae and was     18   in fact meet with me and have lunch with me after\n19   familiar with the process that one goes through in    19   that time about doing some other business other\n20   order to do securitization at Fannie Mae.             20   than the DUS business. Or the -- I mean I -- I\n21   Therefore, it was important to Fam -- to Cam in       21   forgot the question.\n22   many instances that I be present at meetings where    22       (The reporter read the record as requested.)\n                                                                                 23 (Pages 217 to 220)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                                  MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                        VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                            a77cbcf5-7ff0-478d-a5f4-3a9a93751c41\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 33-8           Filed 06/21/2007       Page 25 of 74\n\n                                      Marialice Williams\n                                             Page 221                                                    Page 223\n 1               THE WITNESS: Right. The first              1       Q Do you know what any of these unpleasant\n 2   time was right after the receipt of the e-mail from    2   or terrible things were?\n 3   Betty Dance, indicating that Grace Huebscher was       3       A That I was stupid, that I didn't know\n 4   going to use Craig Ott rather than me for her          4   anything about the business. Et cetera.\n 5   aggregation program.                                   5       Q What other statements other than that\n 6               MR. DANIELS: Is there a                    6   you were stupid and that you didn't know the\n 7   question pending? Where are we?                        7   business?\n 8               MS. BECKER: No. I'm waiting                8       A I don't know. I think people sometimes\n 9   for an exhibit.                                        9   don't like to tell you the specific words, but he\n10               MR. DANIELS: Do you need a                10   told me Fannie Mae said some pretty terrible things\n11   break to get this together?                           11   about you. I don't think I'd tell Bob Jones, for\n12               MS. BECKER: It'll just be a               12   example, that Richard called him a redneck -- no, I\n13   second.                                               13   think I did tell him that. But that's, you know,\n14               MR. DANIELS: Is it something we           14   that's the way Richard Lawch is.\n15   can come back to? I have never seen anything --       15           If you know him as a person he -- he\n16   huh?                                                  16   makes cutting and sarcastic and cynical and\n17   BY MS. BECKER:                                        17   defamatory and false statements about lots of\n18       Q I'd like to turn your attention to your         18   people. But he particularly says them about people\n19   answer to interrogatory number ten.                   19   that he doesn't like, like me.\n20               MR. DANIELS: Thank you.                   20       Q Is it accurate that you don't recall the\n21   BY MS. BECKER:                                        21   dates of these conversations?\n22       Q What false and defamatory information           22       A I don't recall the dates, no.\n                                             Page 222                                                    Page 224\n 1   was communicated to Cam about you?                     1        Q Turning your attention to interrogatory\n 2       A I had several conversations with Bob             2   number 11, do you know when the co-brokerage\n 3   Jones where I was told of negative and defamatory      3   agreement with Cam that you allege existed expired?\n 4   things that were said about me. Did he tell me         4        A No, I really don't know. I don't recall\n 5   what they were precisely? No. But we know they         5   when it expired. I'm not sure if it had a term in\n 6   were said. He knows they were said. Richard Lawch      6   here. Let's see. Does this say?\n 7   knows they were said. You have to ask them.            7           This doesn't say so I don't know.\n 8       Q Is it fair to say you don't know what            8           Well, it certainly had to expire when I\n 9   was said?                                              9   was no longer a broker. I haven't been a broker\n10       A I know it was false and defamatory.             10   for two years. I don't believe it's -- I think\n11       Q How do you know that?                           11   it's been two years now.\n12       A Because I was told that it was.                 12        Q Turning your attention to interrogatory\n13       Q Did Mr. Jones use the words \"false\" and         13   number 13. Can you explain to me how you calculate\n14   \"defamatory\"?                                         14   your damages in this case?\n15       A Maybe not the words false and                   15        A The losses were calculated based upon\n16   defamatory, but he certainly said unpleasant and      16   the amount of potential business that Fannie Mae\n17   terrible things were said about me to Washington      17   did using structures developed by me. Generally\n18   Mortgage and, let's see, in one instance I know of    18   speaking, the fees ranged about 25 basis points\n19   specifically, and to Red Mortgage Capital. And        19   annually for the insurance. In some instances the\n20   there was just a lot of negative things that          20   fees were as high as 56 basis points. And the\n21   Richard would say about me to various people, Bob     21   broker's fee is approximately 10 percent of the\n22   Jones being one of them.                              22   premium fee.\n\n                                                                                 24 (Pages 221 to 224)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                                  MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                        VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                            a77cbcf5-7ff0-478d-a5f4-3a9a93751c41\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 33-8           Filed 06/21/2007      Page 26 of 74\n\n                                      Marialice Williams\n                                             Page 225                                                    Page 227\n 1           Annual reports from Fannie Mae reflect         1   me, which would be 50 percent of the 10 percent of\n 2   about $2 billion of MBS, one-off transactions which    2   the actual fee charged. And then I don't have any\n 3   were closed andually -- an -- annually,                3   idea how much the aggregation program did, and I\n 4   substantially more MBS were issued with the DUS        4   don't know if that's the extent of it. As I said,\n 5   portfolio. I would have no way of knowing exactly      5   here again, because I don't know how much the DUS\n 6   what the credit enhancement arrangements were for      6   portfolio was credit enhanced with any kind of\n 7   all those transactions and the extent to which the     7   insurance project -- product. So --\n 8   insurance was used, but Fannie Mae would know all      8        Q So is the 5.1 million that you're\n 9   of that including how much was closed under the        9   alleging, does that have anything to do with DUS\n10   aggregation program, how much was closed under the    10   deals?\n11   one-off transaction specifically. Only Fannie Mae     11        A No, I don't know how much the DUS deals\n12   would be able to answer that.                         12   were. This was only one small part that was\n13           However, in looking at the documents          13   recorded, said 2 billion -- annual reports from\n14   that were filed in the court in Mississippi, it was   14   Fannie Mae reflect that 2 billion -- that's just\n15   pretty apparent that several hundred million          15   for one year. So let's see, '98, '99, '2000, '1,\n16   dollars, more than a billion, actually, I think, of   16   '2, '3, '4, '5. When did I file in '5? So that's\n17   business was done with using some form of the         17   seven times five, that's 35 million right there\n18   insurance concept, all of which were knockoffs of     18   without me knowing the balance of what else\n19   the concept that I developed, and all of the          19   would've been there.\n20   relationships were those which I brought to Fannie    20        Q And that amount that you're identifying\n21   Mae with Bob under signed confidentiality             21   is unrelated to DUS deals; is that correct?\n22   agreements. So it would be fairly simple I guess      22        A Right. I didn't leave there just to do\n                                             Page 226                                                    Page 228\n 1   for Fannie Mae to track that.                          1   DUS deals. I left there to do MCRI. MCRI could've\n 2           But the only tracking I could do was           2   been used on the equity program, could've been used\n 3   through, as I said, looking at their annual reports    3   on aggregation, affordable housing, DUS, the\n 4   to see how much they did, and then looking at Bob      4   standard one-off negotiated transactions, the DUS\n 5   Jones's account when he was assessing his              5   securitization transactions as well. I don't -- I\n 6   calculations for damages in his case. And that         6   don't know how much they did on that.\n 7   information you have as well.                          7           I can only tell you based on what was in\n 8        Q Based on the calculations that you have         8   this particular thing and what's in Bob's notes\n 9   done, using the annual reports and information         9   that we're talking about at least 35 million for\n10   relating to Bob Jones, how do you calculate your      10   those few years.\n11   damages in this case?                                 11       Q Have you calculated any damages relating\n12        A Ten percent of the premium fee that was        12   to DUS deals?\n13   charged for the insurance would be what the insurer   13       A I don't know that any DUS deals were\n14   would receive minus -- oh, no, 10 percent was the     14   done, but we know what the fees would've been, yes.\n15   premium. So if I was entitled to 50 percent of        15   And the only reason Fan -- and Fannie Mae didn't do\n16   that, then we're looking at, let's see -- I can       16   the DUS deals because she didn't feel like it, not\n17   tell you real fast what that would be. It would       17   that it wasn't needed in the marketplace and\n18   be -- well, I can only tell you what it would be on   18   wouldn't have opened it up to other people. She\n19   the 2 billion -- 112, 1.2, 12, 11.2. It would be      19   just decided whether or not -- I don't know whether\n20   5.1 million in actual fees that would be derived      20   she decided to do it or not. It had to do with\n21   from that particular package.                         21   accounting for its own customers, but, you know,\n22           I believe that's what it would be for         22   Fannie Mae does what it wants to do. And she\n                                                                                 25 (Pages 225 to 228)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                                  MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                        VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                            a77cbcf5-7ff0-478d-a5f4-3a9a93751c41\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 33-8           Filed 06/21/2007       Page 27 of 74\n\n                                      Marialice Williams\n                                             Page 229                                                    Page 231\n 1   wouldn't even permit as -- and as long as I knew,      1   mean I had extraordinary expenses, living expenses.\n 2   she wouldn't even permit her own people to use it.     2       Q Do you have any documents reflecting the\n 3   So I don't know who that was hurting except the        3   rent that you paid to the Watergate on the business\n 4   American public.                                       4   offices?\n 5           Remember, the proposal for the meeting,        5       A Yes, it's on my tax return. And I have\n 6   the captive concept, that was not necessarily to be    6   a lease.\n 7   used for dusk -- DUS people. That was to be used       7       Q Did you produce that lease?\n 8   in their standard program, securitization program,     8       A I don't know whether I did or not. I\n 9   and then negotiated transactions program. Or           9   don't know if I could find it. I don't think it\n10   one-off deals is what they called them.               10   would be too difficult to find it or to have an\n11       Q I'd like to turn your attention to your         11   affidavit done by Gigi Winston and her father who\n12   answer to interrogatory number 14. You've             12   rented the -- found the space for me and rented it\n13   identified certain expenses in response to this       13   to me and all the people that came to visit me\n14   interrogatory. Can you tell me how you calculate      14   there. I don't think it was any secret that I\n15   rent at $1,450 a month?                               15   actually rented the apartment, so I don't think\n16       A That's what my lease was.                       16   there would be any problem getting documentation to\n17       Q This was your lease at the Watergate?           17   prove that I actually had a space there. And the\n18       A Watergate.                                      18   fact that Harvey Hartsfield and Rob Robinson worked\n19       Q Was that the lease on your personal             19   there on a daily basis, so.\n20   apartment or on your business --                      20           And Bob Johns -- Jones came to visit\n21       A No, I had an office. It had three               21   there, and people from Fannie Mae came to visit\n22   offices. It had an office for someone who came in     22   there, Washington Mortgage came there, Red Mortgage\n                                             Page 230                                                    Page 232\n 1   occasionally and did secretarial work. It had an       1   Capital came there, Chris Tawa came there. I mean\n 2   office for first Rob Robinson and then Harvey          2   it's -- you know, obviously I was there.\n 3   Hartsfield. And then I had my own office and then      3        Q Was that office the headquarters for\n 4   the outer office was a conference area. And it was     4   RMS?\n 5   a unit number 701 in the Watergate office building     5        A It was the headquarters for Marialice\n 6   itself.                                                6   Williams & Associates; it was the headquarters for\n 7           My apartment was in the south building         7   RMS, LLC and the headquarters for RMS without the\n 8   at the Watergate. And although I did use a portion     8   LLC.\n 9   of my apartment for my -- for office, I did not --     9        Q How did you calculate phone and office\n10   I worked every day in my office in the Watergate      10   equipment at $1,000 a month?\n11   office building.                                      11        A That's what it cost. I just went to the\n12           And that does not include what I had to       12   bills. I had three telephone lines since there\n13   pay in order to make the office suitable for use.     13   were three people in the office. I had fax\n14   I had it reconfigured slightly, to the tune of        14   machines, copiers; I had everything that you would\n15   quite a few thousand dollars. And it also doesn't     15   have in a typical office. And the -- and the\n16   reflect that, you know, I had to live during that     16   commercial phone lines and -- and the cell phones'\n17   period, and I basically lived off of my money that    17   cost, I'm sure that's not even -- that's probably a\n18   I got from Fannie Mae at retirement and a $200,000    18   gross understatement of what it cost.\n19   loan I took out on my apartment with Bank of          19        Q Do you still have those bills?\n20   America that had to be paid off when I did my         20        A No, but I have a tax return and the\n21   apartment -- you know, when I left my apartment. I    21   backup documentation, yes. I think one year I had\n22   mean when I paid off my -- sold my apartment. So I    22   $140,000 -- she has my tax re -- you have my tax\n\n                                                                                 26 (Pages 229 to 232)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                                  MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                        VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                            a77cbcf5-7ff0-478d-a5f4-3a9a93751c41\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 33-8           Filed 06/21/2007      Page 28 of 74\n\n                                      Marialice Williams\n                                             Page 233                                                    Page 235\n 1   returns, just look at them and you can see how much    1       Q How long did you have an office\n 2   it cost me.                                            2   assistant?\n 3       Q My question is do you have the bills             3       A That's really not quite accurate in\n 4   that reflect --                                        4   terms of \"office assistant.\" It's really a person\n 5       A Of course I have them. I had to prepare          5   who was working as a consultant, doing a lot of the\n 6   my tax returns; therefore, I have all my backup        6   marketing work and so forth with me; and I had them\n 7   documentation and it's all on my tax returns.          7   from the day I started until the day I left the\n 8       Q So you do have those bills?                      8   Watergate and even really beyond that time, I\n 9       A Yes.                                             9   believe.\n10       Q How did you calculate 15,000 -- I'm             10       Q Who is this individual?\n11   sorry, 1500 a month in travel costs?                  11       A There were two different individuals;\n12       A By the expenses that I used to travel           12   one is Rob Robinson, Robert Robinson, was the first\n13   to -- I mean the same way you have phone and          13   person. I paid him two grand a month. And the\n14   office -- yes, I have those receipts as well.         14   second person was Harvey Hartsfield, who was paid\n15       Q Did you have expense reports that you           15   $3,000 a month. We went on all of our -- we went\n16   prepared for these trips or did you simply keep       16   on all of our business calls together and business\n17   receipts somewhere?                                   17   trips, conferences.\n18       A I just kept receipts. I was just an             18                MR. DANIELS: Marialice, do you\n19   individual.                                           19   have to put more quarters in the --\n20       Q And where did you keep these receipts?          20                THE WITNESS: Yeah, in about 20\n21       A Oh, Jesus. In a file.                           21   minutes.\n22       Q Do you still have that file?                    22   BY MS. BECKER:\n                                             Page 234                                                    Page 236\n 1       A Yes, I did my tax returns and I have my          1       Q What was the time frame in which\n 2   backup documentation.                                  2   Mr. Robinson worked for you?\n 3       Q When did these travel expenses start?            3       A From -- I believe it was from 1998 until\n 4       A The day I left Fannie Mae.                       4   19 -- until 2000, I think, almost 2000.\n 5       Q And they were consistently 1500 a month          5       Q What was the time frame during which --\n 6   every month?                                           6       A The balance of the time from about 1999\n 7       A That was an average. In a -- in a                7   or 2000 through till 2002, '3, something like that,\n 8   typical month, I would go to New York two or three     8   because he was still working with me when I moved\n 9   times to meet with Marsh Mac. I would go to            9   out of the Watergate and moved to 5722 First\n10   Dallas, Texas to meet with Lend Lease. I would go     10   Street.\n11   to California to meet with Countrywide Mortgage.      11       Q Just so that the record is clear, we're\n12   These were not inexpensive travel trips at all.       12   talking about Harvey Hartsfield here?\n13       Q Did you calculate this based on an              13       A Correct.\n14   average or did you look at the actual receipts and    14       Q And what were the dates he was employed\n15   add them up?                                          15   with you?\n16       A I prepared my tax returns from actual           16       A I don't recall the exact dates.\n17   receipts. When this question was responded to, I'm    17       Q What's your best estimate?\n18   certain I gave an average number. I could have        18       A He started when Rob Robinson stopped and\n19   given an exact number on all of these things. And     19   then he stopped in 2003, I believe it was. And\n20   I believe you will see the exact numbers on my tax    20   we're still working together.\n21   returns that are backed up by large manila            21       Q When did you stop paying him 3,000 a\n22   envelopes filled with receipts.                       22   month?\n                                                                                 27 (Pages 233 to 236)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                                  MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                        VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                            a77cbcf5-7ff0-478d-a5f4-3a9a93751c41\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 33-8           Filed 06/21/2007      Page 29 of 74\n\n                                      Marialice Williams\n                                             Page 237                                                    Page 239\n 1        A I don't recall.                                 1   Mississippi and got the records and does certain\n 2        Q Do you have any records that would              2   legal research at Mr. Daniels' and Mr. Lederer's\n 3   indicate that?                                         3   direction.\n 4        A I'm sure that the exact amount would be         4        Q Has he ever represented you?\n 5   on my tax returns and that's how we could estimate     5        A No.\n 6   when it would've been. Mr. Hartsfield and I are        6        Q Who else represents you in this\n 7   still working together. I do not pay him myself;       7   litigation -- or who does represent you in this\n 8   we're paid out of other funds from a contractor.       8   litigation?\n 9               MS. BECKER: Do you want to take            9        A Michael Beasley, Brian Lederer, and\n10   a short break so you can go put money in the meter?   10   Harley Daniels.\n11               THE WITNESS: Mm-hmm.                      11        Q Did you also have a personal\n12               MS. BECKER: Okay.                         12   relationship with Mr. Daniels?\n13               VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record at           13        A I was married to Mr. Daniels from 1980\n14   2:22:54.                                              14   to 1990.\n15        (Thereupon, a recess was taken.)                 15        Q So you were married to Mr. Daniels when\n16               VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record at            16   you were working at Fannie Mae; is that correct?\n17   2:40.                                                 17        A Yes, for part of the time, yes.\n18   BY MS. BECKER:                                        18        Q Did you ever discuss with Mr. Daniels\n19        Q Ms. Williams, directing your attention         19   your working relationship with Richard Lawch?\n20   to your response to interrogatory number 15, who is   20        A Absolutely.\n21   Conway Downing?                                       21        Q What did you tell him about that\n22        A Conway Downing is -- has been the sort         22   relationship?\n                                             Page 238                                                    Page 240\n 1   of law -- law clerk for this transaction with us,      1       A I told him Richard was the worst boss\n 2   works with Mr. Daniels and Mr. Lederer. And he --      2   I've ever had and that he was a miserable son of a\n 3   I was married to him -- I'm marr -- still married      3   gun and that he did not like me and treated me\n 4   to him, although we've been separated for some         4   poorly and that I would -- that I was being taken\n 5   time, but we still have a number of business           5   advantage of, that I was being treated unfairly,\n 6   transactions together. And he worked in the office     6   et cetera.\n 7   at the Watergate, one of the three offices, over       7       Q Did you tell Mr. Daniels that you\n 8   the time that we were trying to do this business       8   believed that Mr. Lawch discriminated against you\n 9   with Fannie Mae.                                       9   on basis of your race?\n10            And as recently as two weeks ago on          10       A Yes, I did.\n11   Friday, I think I mentioned it to you in the last     11       Q Did Mr. Daniels provide you with any\n12   part of the deposition, we have -- he's still         12   advice on how to deal with Fannie Mae?\n13   arranging meetings with people to talk about          13       A No, not at that time.\n14   potential business, with Fannie Mae, using a con --   14       Q Did he provide you with any advice in\n15   a -- another concept that's not mentioned in this     15   connection with your settlement agreement with\n16   document.                                             16   Fannie Mae?\n17        Q Is he a licensed attorney?                     17       A I did discuss it with him to some extent\n18        A In the state of Virginia.                      18   but I -- Brian Lederer actually represented me.\n19        Q Does he represent you in connection with       19       Q What was the nature of your discussions\n20   this litigation?                                      20   with Mr. Daniels regarding your settlement\n21        A No, doesn't represent me. He's serving         21   agreement?\n22   as a clerk. He's the person that went to              22       A How unfair, how could they do this. All\n                                                                                28 (Pages 237 to 240)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                                 MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                       VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                            a77cbcf5-7ff0-478d-a5f4-3a9a93751c41\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 33-8           Filed 06/21/2007      Page 30 of 74\n\n                                      Marialice Williams\n                                             Page 241                                                    Page 243\n 1   those years I put in. All that money I made for        1       Q Does December 16, 2003 sound like the\n 2   them. How could they treat me like I'm just some       2   last date that you were deposed in connection with\n 3   piece of crap that's leaving there under pressure.     3   the Cam litigation?\n 4   I can't believe they're only paying me this and I      4       A It could've been.\n 5   made them all that money.                              5       Q When in relation to that last deposition\n 6           Let's see, what else did I discuss with        6   did Mr. Williams first represent -- I'm sorry, did\n 7   him? Just general matters that -- that we              7   Mr. Daniels first represent you?\n 8   discussed -- that I discussed earlier. The             8       A When in relation to it?\n 9   unfairness, how awful Richard Lawch was. How he        9       Q Yes.\n10   stepped in the middle of my negotiations and          10       A He went to that deposition with me.\n11   probably caused Tom Nieds to treat me like crap,      11       Q Was that the first time that he\n12   which he did. He was really nasty and crappy to       12   represented you in connection with Fannie Mae?\n13   me.                                                   13       A As far as I know.\n14       Q What was Mr. Daniels' reaction to the           14       Q At the time that you were negotiating\n15   situation?                                            15   your settlement agreement with Fannie Mae, what was\n16                MR. DANIELS: I'm going to                16   Mr. Daniels reaction to the situation?\n17   object to that. At that point we were no longer       17       A I don't know.\n18   married, and I was speaking to her in the capacity    18                MR. DANIELS: Yeah, I'm -- I'm\n19   as an attorney and I gave her advice at that time,    19   going to ask you not to answer that question.\n20   so I ask her not to answer that question.             20                THE WITNESS: Okay.\n21   BY MS. BECKER:                                        21                MR. DANIELS: It involves legal\n22       Q What was the date of your divorce?              22   advice.\n                                             Page 242                                                    Page 244\n 1       A I don't remember.                                1                MS. BECKER: On what basis?\n 2                MR. DANIELS: August 1993.                 2                MR. DANIELS: Lawyer-client\n 3   BY MS. BECKER:                                         3   privilege.\n 4       Q When did Mr. Daniels first represent you         4                 MS. BECKER: The witness has\n 5   in a legal capacity?                                   5   just testified that there was no attorney-client\n 6       A In 1987, in Hobbs, New Mexico, in a              6   relationship at that time.\n 7   matter involving an automobile that was defective.     7                 MR. DANIELS: 1988?\n 8       Q When did Mr. Daniels first represent you         8                 MR. LEDERER: 1998 --\n 9   in connection with Fannie Mae?                         9                 MR. DANIELS: '98. I -- I still\n10       A I don't recall the exact date. But it           10   invoke client -- attorney-client relationship.\n11   would have been the same time I met with              11                 THE WITNESS: You did\n12   Mr. Lederer, Mr. Beasley, and Mr. Daniels at the      12   represent -- yes, right, I did seek his counsel\n13   same time. And I believe it was before the            13   first. I -- I misspoke. He did represent me.\n14   depositions were concluded because they attended      14   BY MS. BECKER:\n15   the final deposition after the death of Julia         15        Q When did Mr. Daniels first represent you\n16   Williams, my -- my attorney prior to that time. So    16   in connection with Fannie Mae?\n17   at the last deposition in the Cam Financial matter,   17        A Prior to my departure. That's right. I\n18   where I was deposed, Mr. -- all three of my counsel   18   do remember that now.\n19   were present at that time.                            19                 MR. DANIELS: Mm-hmm.\n20       Q What was the date of that last                  20   BY MS. BECKER:\n21   deposition?                                           21        Q Are you going to follow Mr. Daniels'\n22       A I don't remember.                               22   instruction and not answer my question?\n                                                                                 29 (Pages 241 to 244)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                                  MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                        VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                            a77cbcf5-7ff0-478d-a5f4-3a9a93751c41\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 33-8           Filed 06/21/2007      Page 31 of 74\n\n                                      Marialice Williams\n                                             Page 245                                                    Page 247\n 1       A Right.                                           1   him and his predecessor, Larry Mirel, who's the\n 2       Q About Mr. Daniels?                               2   former commissioner of the DC Department of\n 3       A No, I'm not going to answer the                  3   Insurance, Securities and Banking. Met with him\n 4   question.                                              4   several times. They hired Kate Westover as our --\n 5       Q If I could just finish my question, then         5   our representative to write the actual implementing\n 6   you can answer. Are you going to follow                6   regulations for the Department of Insurance,\n 7   Mr. Daniels' instruction and not answer the            7   Securities and Banking with respect to captive\n 8   question that I posed to you about Mr. Daniels'        8   insurance.\n 9   reaction to your settlement agreement with Fannie      9       Q Other than the individuals on the list\n10   Mae?                                                  10   that you've identified in response to interrogatory\n11       A Are you going to -- I'm sorry. I'm              11   number 15, are there any other individuals who have\n12   totally lost on the question.                         12   information relating to your claims?\n13                MR. DANIELS: I asked you not to          13       A I believe those were the persons that\n14   answer the question. She wants to know whether        14   we -- that I was able to identify by going through\n15   you're going to follow my advice.                     15   the records that I sent to Fannie Mae in response\n16                THE WITNESS: I'm not going to            16   to their request for interrogatories. There may\n17   answer the question.                                  17   have been some others but these were the majority\n18   BY MS. BECKER:                                        18   of the ones, I believe, that we sent to you as\n19       Q If I were to ask you any other questions        19   response to your request for information.\n20   about your communications with Mr. Daniels relating   20       Q Is there anybody else that you can think\n21   to Fannie Mae, would you also decline to answer       21   of who has information relating to your claims?\n22   those questions?                                      22       A Not -- not at this time, I cannot say\n                                             Page 246                                                    Page 248\n 1       A Yes, as far as him representing me, yes.         1   who else would have.\n 2   He would've been my counsel and I would -- right.      2       Q When did you file for bankruptcy?\n 3   That would be privileged.                              3       A You know, I can't remember. I think it\n 4       Q Who's Jane Harrison?                             4   was 2001 or 2002.\n 5       A She is a close associate of Bob Jones,           5               MS. BECKER: I'm going to ask\n 6   and she was with two or three different DUS lenders    6   the court reporter to mark this as Exhibit 14, I\n 7   while I knew her.                                      7   believe.\n 8       Q When is the last conversation that you           8               MADAM REPORTER: Thank you.\n 9   had with Ms. Harrison?                                 9               MS. BECKER: Mm-hmm.\n10       A I don't remember.                               10       (Deposition Exhibit No. 14 - Statement of\n11       Q Can you give me a ballpark?                     11       Financial Affairs from the United States\n12       A No.                                             12       Bankruptcy Court, District of Columbia - was\n13       Q Was it in the last two years?                   13       marked for identification.)\n14       A Maybe.                                          14               THE WITNESS: Boy, everybody\n15       Q Was it in the last year?                        15   messes up the spelling of my name, don't they?\n16       A I don't think so.                               16   BY MS. BECKER:\n17       Q Who at the DC Department of Insurance,          17       Q Do you recognize this document?\n18   Securities and Banking has information relevant to    18       A No.\n19   this case?                                            19       Q I'd like to ask you to turn to the last\n20       A Tom Hampton is the new commissioner at          20   page of the document.\n21   the department, and he's fully aware of the           21       A Mm-hmm.\n22   concepts that we were trying to do. We met with       22       Q Do you see where it says \"signature of\n                                                                                 30 (Pages 245 to 248)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                                  MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                        VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                            a77cbcf5-7ff0-478d-a5f4-3a9a93751c41\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 33-8          Filed 06/21/2007      Page 32 of 74\n\n                                     Marialice Williams\n                                            Page 249                                                    Page 251\n 1   debtor\"?                                              1        A Mm-hmm.\n 2       A Mm-hmm.                                         2        Q Do you see where it says \"none,\" and\n 3       Q Is that your signature?                         3   there's a box checked there?\n 4       A It sure is.                                     4        A Mm-hmm.\n 5       Q Did you prepare this document?                  5        Q Did you check none in response to the\n 6       A No.                                             6   question in Section 18?\n 7       Q Did you review it?                              7        A Identify any business listed in response\n 8       A I think I did.                                  8   that is a single asset real estate. Yeah, I -- I\n 9       Q Who prepared it?                                9   didn't have any business that was a single asset\n10       A My bankruptcy attorney, Richard Gins.          10   real estate.\n11       Q Did your signature indicate under              11        Q Do you see where it says: If the debtor\n12   penalty of perjury that you'd read the answers       12   is an individual list the names, addresses,\n13   contained in the foregoing statement of financial    13   taxpayer identification numbers, nature of the\n14   affairs and any attachments thereto and that         14   businesses, and beginning and ending dates of all\n15   they're true and correct?                            15   businesses in which the debtor was an officer,\n16       A I'm sorry, you lost me in your question.       16   director, partner, or managing executive of a\n17   It was too long.                                     17   corporation, partnership, or sole proprietorship?\n18                THE WITNESS: Could you tell me          18        A If -- I'm sorry, was -- was that the\n19   what her question because I don't know what I'm      19   first, second, or third paragraph you read?\n20   answering?                                           20        Q The first paragraph.\n21           Do you want to know did I sign this and      21        A If the debtor's an individual, mm-hmm.\n22   say that I believe that what's in here is true?      22   Okay. Yes, I see that.\n                                            Page 250                                                    Page 252\n 1   BY MS. BECKER:                                        1        Q Why didn't you identify RMS?\n 2       Q Yes.                                            2        A I don't know. I thought I did.\n 3       A Yes, I do.                                      3        Q Can you explain that?\n 4       Q Does this refresh your recollection as          4        A This isn't even -- I don't know what\n 5   to when you filed for bankruptcy?                     5   copy this is, but this doesn't have everything on\n 6       A No, it doesn't because I don't see it on        6   here that it should have on here. So I don't know\n 7   here. And there's no date on here either.             7   where you got this, but it doesn't look to me like\n 8       Q In Section 1, income from employment or         8   it's complete or final. Because my attorney\n 9   operation of business, it says: To state the gross    9   certainly knew that I was -- he certainly knew\n10   amounts received during the two years immediately    10   everything about me, saw my tax returns and\n11   preceding this calendar year; do you see that?       11   everything.\n12       A Mm-hmm.                                        12        Q You signed this document; correct?\n13       Q And here there's information listed for        13        A Mm-hmm. Yes.\n14   2000, 2001, and 2002. Do you see that?               14        Q Do you agree that indicating \"none\"\n15       A Mm-hmm.                                        15   under Section 18 is incorrect?\n16       Q So would it be fair to assume that this        16        A No, I don't agree because it says:\n17   document was filed in 2002 or 2003?                  17   Identify any business listed in response to\n18       A Yes, I think it was filed in 2002, which       18   subdivision A. And there is no response to\n19   is what I said from the beginning. It was either     19   subdivision A here, so wherever the response to\n20   to 2001 or 2002. It appears that it was 2002.        20   subdivision A is must be where all that information\n21       Q I'd like to turn your attention to the         21   is located, and it's not on here.\n22   last page of this document under Section 18.         22        Q You're looking at B; is that correct?\n                                                                               31 (Pages 249 to 252)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                                 MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                       VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                           a77cbcf5-7ff0-478d-a5f4-3a9a93751c41\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 33-8           Filed 06/21/2007       Page 33 of 74\n\n                                      Marialice Williams\n                                             Page 253                                                    Page 255\n 1       A Mm-hmm.                                          1   holding -- you said E?\n 2       Q Look up under 18A.                               2       Q F?\n 3       A Right. You know, I don't know. My                3       A Yes, it says: Schedule F, creditors\n 4   attorney prepared this, Richard Gins. You can ask      4   holding unsecured non-priority claims.\n 5   him why he didn't put it on there. I'm sure that I     5       Q Did you have an American Express card?\n 6   looked at it just as I'm looking at it now, saw        6       A Yes, I did.\n 7   this B section, said none, and signed it.              7       Q Did you use that for personal or for\n 8           But again, like I said, it's not dated,        8   business expenses?\n 9   and he certainly had knowledge of exactly what I       9       A Business.\n10   was doing. So I guess you have to call my             10       Q Did you use it exclusively for business\n11   bankruptcy attorney and ask him why he didn't put     11   expenses?\n12   it on there.                                          12       A Yes. Pretty much.\n13       Q Do you agree that RMS was a business in         13       Q Does that mean that you also used it for\n14   which you were an officer, director, partner, or      14   some personal expenses?\n15   managing executive?                                   15       A I -- I don't recall. This is really a\n16       A I was the owner of RMS.                         16   long time ago, and I'm sure that I used my American\n17                MS. BECKER: I'd like to hand             17   Express travel largely for travel for business. I\n18   you what I'll ask the court reporter to mark as       18   may have used my American Express card for personal\n19   Exhibit 15.                                           19   but not my travel part of it, no.\n20       (Deposition Exhibit No. 15 - Notice of            20          Oh, also I might have been going to\n21       Chapter 7 Bankruptcy Case, Meeting of             21   American Bar Association conferences be -- a lot\n22       Creditors & Deadlines, United States              22   because I was chairman of one of the -- of a\n                                             Page 254                                                    Page 256\n 1       Bankruptcy Court, District of Columbia (DC) -      1   subcommittee for the ABA at that time, I believe.\n 2       was marked for identification.)                    2   Or at least active on Affordable Housing Committee.\n 3                THE WITNESS: Maybe he didn't              3   And I was also going to places like Mortgage\n 4   put it on there because there's no -- I didn't make    4   Bankers Association conferences to meet with Fannie\n 5   any money from it. And had a negative cash flow.       5   Mae and clients.\n 6   I don't know why he didn't put it on there.            6           So a lot of that travel was on -- it --\n 7   BY MS. BECKER:                                         7   it was mostly business travel. I didn't have any\n 8       Q Do you recognize this document?                  8   extra money. I was spending it all trying to\n 9       A No.                                              9   develop this business with Fannie Mae.\n10       Q Have you ever seen this document before?        10       Q Your work as ABA conference chairperson,\n11       A I don't know.                                   11   was that related in any way to expenses that you\n12           Yes, I've seen this document.                 12   incurred related to Fannie Mae?\n13       Q What is it?                                     13       A Fannie Mae. Sure, I talked about Fannie\n14       A It's my petition for bankruptcy.                14   Mae while I was in those conferences and, you know,\n15       Q I'd like to turn your attention to              15   the potential solutions I had found that -- to\n16   Schedule F, which is creditors holding unsecured      16   problems. It was affordable housing. I mean\n17   non-priority claims.                                  17   that's the whole thrust of what I've been trying to\n18       A Mm-hmm.                                         18   do with Fannie Mae and everyplace else was\n19       Q Is this a statement of the outstanding          19   affordable housing. How to get access to the\n20   credit card debts that you had at the time that you   20   secondary market for individuals who were not\n21   filed bankruptcy?                                     21   middle class or white, and therefore I was always\n22       A That's what it says. Un -- creditors            22   trying to come up with concepts for how to provide\n\n                                                                                 32 (Pages 253 to 256)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                                  MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                        VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                            a77cbcf5-7ff0-478d-a5f4-3a9a93751c41\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 33-8           Filed 06/21/2007       Page 34 of 74\n\n                                      Marialice Williams\n                                             Page 257                                                    Page 259\n 1   housing for inner city, disabled individuals.          1   taxes. So I have receipts for what I claimed on my\n 2           I'm still doing that. Right now I'm            2   tax returns.\n 3   working on a project for affordable housing for        3   BY MS. BECKER:\n 4   people recovering from mental illness. That's --       4       Q Can you tell me what the business --\n 5   that's what I do. It's all related.                    5       A And that doesn't have anything to do\n 6       Q Do you have any documentation that would         6   with what's on a bankruptcy petition, so I don't\n 7   indicate that your business expenses from American     7   understand the relevance of your question. Because\n 8   Express travel related to Fannie Mae?                  8   you're asking me about this particular exhibit\n 9       A If they -- if they're on a particular --         9   which has nothing to do with my tax return.\n10   sure. If they're -- if it was an expense, it was      10       Q I'm asking you about receipts that you\n11   on an American Express bill. And if it was on an      11   have that would back up the notion that --\n12   Express bill and I did -- deducted it from my --      12       A The notion?\n13   used it as an expense, then there would be a record   13       Q The notion that the American Express\n14   in my tax records, as there is for every year that    14   travel expenses that you're identifying here were\n15   I prepared my tax returns. I have all my receipts,    15   related to Fannie Mae. Are you willing to turn\n16   pretty much.                                          16   over those receipts or not?\n17       Q Are you willing to turn those receipts          17       A No.\n18   over in this litigation?                              18       Q Your Bank of America card that's listed\n19       A No.                                             19   here, did you use that for business expenses or for\n20       Q Why not?                                        20   personal expenses?\n21       A Because it's none of your business. I           21       A For both. I've answered this question.\n22   mean I have my tax returns, they're signed. I mean    22   The answer's going to be the same for every credit\n                                             Page 258                                                    Page 260\n 1   if you want to go to the IRS and ask them for the      1   card that's in here. For many of these credit\n 2   information, I'm sure they might give it to you.       2   cards, the reason I had the credit card was to\n 3   They do anything else they want to do.                 3   write a check so that I could pay my bills for my\n 4        Q Do you have the information in your             4   office because I wasn't getting any business from\n 5   possession?                                            5   Fannie Mae. So I ran up credit card ch -- writing\n 6        A Yes, I do.                                      6   checks. I ran up credit card bills with American\n 7        Q Are you refusing to turn it over?               7   Express.\n 8        A I'm sorry, is this -- is this okay?             8            You see all of these individuals here\n 9                MR. DANIELS: Yeah.                        9   that are listed, that is largely what I used my\n10                THE WITNESS: Yeah, you know,             10   money for, was in order to survive to keep myself\n11   I -- I prepared my tax returns just the way you do.   11   going, because I was convinced any day I was going\n12   From receipts, it goes onto a schedule, and it gets   12   to get this in -- this business from Fannie Mae.\n13   filed with the IRS. That is the way tax returns       13   And as it turned out, I didn't get it soon enough\n14   are prepared.                                         14   so I had to file bankruptcy.\n15            How do you get the receipts? You have        15        Q It lists under Bank of America bankcard\n16   them in a package. You save them from your trips.     16   services, did you use that for business expenses or\n17   You save them from your luncheons. You save them      17   for personal expenses?\n18   from whatever you have. You put them in a package.    18        A Both. If you ask me that question about\n19   When it's time to do your taxes, you add up those     19   every single thing in here, I'm going to give you\n20   receipts and you put them into your tax return.       20   the same answer. So if you want to waste all of\n21   And that's how it is done and that is how I do it     21   our time asking me, go right ahead and I'll answer\n22   and that is how I believe most people do their        22   it all, but I have to be out of here at 4:00.\n                                                                                 33 (Pages 257 to 260)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                                  MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                        VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                            a77cbcf5-7ff0-478d-a5f4-3a9a93751c41\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 33-8           Filed 06/21/2007       Page 35 of 74\n\n                                      Marialice Williams\n                                             Page 261                                                    Page 263\n 1       Q For each of these credit cards, is -- is         1       Q Yeah.\n 2   it your testimony that you used them partly for        2       A This is a copy. I did not keep copies\n 3   business expenses and partly for personal expenses?    3   of the ones that were signed. But these were in my\n 4       A Yes.                                             4   computer. My accountant sent them to me in the\n 5       Q Can you tell me how much --                      5   computer. When I printed them out, Mr. Dan --\n 6       A No.                                              6   Mr. Down -- Downing and I signed them and sent them\n 7       Q -- you used for business expenses --             7   in. I did not make a copy of the -- of the return\n 8       A No, I cannot.                                    8   with the signatures.\n 9       Q -- and how much you used for personal            9       Q Is this the original tax return that you\n10   expenses?                                             10   filed for the year 2001 or is this an amended tax\n11       A No, I cannot.                                   11   return?\n12          My business expenses are listed on my          12       A This is the only tax return I have filed\n13   tax returns and all that information comes from       13   for 2001.\n14   receipts that were provided to my accountant.         14       Q And when was this tax return prepared?\n15                MS. BECKER: I'm going to ask             15       A In 2004.\n16   the court reporter to mark this is as Exhibit 15 or   16       Q Why wasn't the tax return filed at the\n17   16?                                                   17   time that it was prepared?\n18                MADAM REPORTER: Sixteen.                 18                THE WITNESS: Do I answer this?\n19                MS. BECKER: Sixteen.                     19                MR. DANIELS: No, I'm going to\n20       (Deposition Exhibit No. 16 - 2001 Form 1040,      20   direct you not to answer that. Not relevant to\n21       U.S.Individual Income Tax Return for the          21   this lawsuit.\n22       witness - was marked for identification.)         22                MS. BECKER: Is there any other\n                                             Page 262                                                    Page 264\n 1   BY MS. BECKER:                                         1   basis --\n 2        Q Is this a copy of your 2001 tax return?         2                 MR. DANIELS: Can we have a\n 3        A Yes, it is.                                     3   proffer as to what you intend to prove by this?\n 4        Q When was this filed with the IRS?               4                 MS. BECKER: Is there any other\n 5        A In September of 2006.                           5   basis for your objection?\n 6        Q Why didn't you file before September of         6                 MR. DANIELS: Do you have a\n 7   2006?                                                  7   proffer?\n 8        A Becau --                                        8                 MS. BECKER: Is there any other\n 9                 MR. DANIELS: I'm going to                9   basis for your objection?\n10   direct her not to answer that question.               10                 MR. LEDERER: Yeah, it's\n11                 MS. BECKER: On what grounds?            11   intrusive, it's immaterial.\n12                 MR. DANIELS: On the ground that         12                 MR. DANIELS: And it's\n13   it's not relevant to this lawsuit.                    13   irrelevant.\n14                 MS. BECKER: Is that the only            14                 MR. LEDERER: It's irrelevant.\n15   basis of your objection?                              15   If fact, if you want to --\n16                 MR. DANIELS: For the moment,            16                 MR. DANIELS: That's okay.\n17   yes.                                                  17                 MS. BECKER: Is there any other\n18   BY MS. BECKER:                                        18   basis for your objection?\n19        Q If you turn to Page 2 of this tax              19                 MR. DANIELS: No, ma'am.\n20   return, you'll see where there's a place for your     20                 MR. LEDERER: At the moment.\n21   signature. Is this tax return signed?                 21   BY MS. BECKER:\n22        A Yes, it was signed when it was filed.          22        Q Are you going to decline to answer the\n                                                                                 34 (Pages 261 to 264)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                                  MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                        VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                            a77cbcf5-7ff0-478d-a5f4-3a9a93751c41\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 33-8          Filed 06/21/2007      Page 36 of 74\n\n                                      Marialice Williams\n                                              Page 265                                                   Page 267\n 1   question?                                              1                MS. BECKER: Do you have any\n 2       A I am going to follow my attorney's               2   other basis for your objection?\n 3   advice.                                                3                MR. DANIELS: Do you have any\n 4                MR. DANIELS: I direct you to              4   more to proffer?\n 5   not answer that question.                              5                MS. BECKER: I don't know what\n 6                MR. LEDERER: You asked for a              6   her testimony would be so I can't tell you what it\n 7   proffer.                                               7   be --\n 8                MR. DANIELS: Are you going to             8                MR. DANIELS: I don't know what\n 9   give me your proffer, or you decline to give me        9   you're looking for so I have to say from my point\n10   your --                                               10   of view it looks irrelevant, immaterial,\n11                MS. BECKER: I believe that her           11   oppressive, and none of your business for the\n12   tax returns are directly relevant to her statement    12   purposes of this lawsuit.\n13   of damages in this case and directly relevant to      13                MS. BECKER: Again, I believe it\n14   the proof --                                          14   goes to her damages and to her credibility.\n15                MR. DANIELS: But she's given             15                MR. DANIELS: Okay.\n16   you those tax returns.                                16   BY MS. BECKER:\n17                MS. BECKER: -- that she would            17       Q I would like to direct your attention to\n18   offer relating to those -- those damages. I'm         18   page --\n19   entitled --                                           19       A Well, you can pay me what it says on\n20                MR. DANIELS: When it was filed           20   here is my losses for each one of those years\n21   has nothing to do with her damages.                   21   and --\n22                MS. BECKER: It -- it also goes           22       Q I'd like to turn --\n                                              Page 266                                                   Page 268\n 1   to -- to her credibility in this case.                 1        A -- and then we won't have any more\n 2                 THE WITNESS: My credibility?             2   discussion. 'Cause it's only because of Fannie Mae\n 3   This is my tax return.                                 3   that I had those losses, so they can pay me those\n 4                 MR. LEDERER: Can you make a              4   losses there and I will forfeit the 35 million they\n 5   proffer on that -- how that goes to her                5   owe me.\n 6   credibility?                                           6        Q You have backup documentation,\n 7                 MR. DANIELS: Yes.                        7   Ms. Williams, is that correct, relating to your\n 8                 MS. BECKER: I don't know what            8   2001 tax return?\n 9   her testimony would be so I can't tell you what the    9        A Of course I do.\n10   testimony would be. But --                            10        Q And you're not -- not willing to produce\n11                 MR. LEDERER: Yeah, but what             11   those; is that correct?\n12   makes you think inquiring into how she filed her      12        A No, I'm not.\n13   tax returns, when she filed her tax returns, why      13        Q Okay. Looking to Page 4 of your tax\n14   she filed them then instead of later has anything     14   return, you identify under expenses in line 17\n15   to do with her credibility? These are financial       15   legal and professional services in the amount of\n16   figures going to damages. They are signed, filed      16   $36,000. Do you see that?\n17   returns.                                              17        A Yes, I do see it and I showed you where\n18           So we're just asking for your proffer,        18   it came from. I showed you that I paid someone\n19   other than an inquiry into her financial affairs.     19   $2,000 a year and someone 3,000. Twelve times\n20                 MR. DANIELS: We've -- we've got         20   three is 36.\n21   a record on it. Let's go on.                          21                MR. DANIELS: A month. A month.\n22                 MR. LEDERER: Yeah.                      22   You said a year.\n                                                                                 35 (Pages 265 to 268)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                                  MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                        VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                            a77cbcf5-7ff0-478d-a5f4-3a9a93751c41\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 33-8           Filed 06/21/2007      Page 37 of 74\n\n                                      Marialice Williams\n                                             Page 269                                                    Page 271\n 1               THE WITNESS: Huh?                          1   going from receipts and that's largely where it\n 2               MR. DANIELS: You said a year.              2   came from. Some receipts perhaps weren't there.\n 3   You meant a month.                                     3           There's nothing inconsistent with my tax\n 4               THE WITNESS: A year. $36,000 I             4   return, my bankruptcy petition, and my statements\n 5   paid.                                                  5   in my interrogatories. It is 100 percent\n 6               MR. DANIELS: But you said                  6   consistent.\n 7   2,000.                                                 7       Q Did you add up the amount of your\n 8               THE WITNESS: Two thousand                  8   travel, meal, and entertainment expenses based on\n 9   versus 3,000 per -- month, right, which totals then    9   the receipts that you had from the year 2001?\n10   the 36,000. That's completely consistent with what    10       A I didn't add them up. The -- someone\n11   I put in my thing there.                              11   who worked for my accountant added them up.\n12   BY MS. BECKER:                                        12       Q Did you review those receipts yourself?\n13       Q Who did you pay for legal and                   13       A No, I put them in the file. She re --\n14   professional services?                                14   she added them up. You're not required to\n15       A I paid Harvey Hartsfield. In this               15   independently add up your own receipts as far as I\n16   particular year.                                      16   know. I thought it was the job of the accountant\n17       Q What was the nature of his legal and            17   and their bookkeeper. I thought they were better\n18   professional services?                                18   at adding than I was.\n19       A Professional services. For that he was          19       Q Do you have any basis to say whether you\n20   a marketing consultant; he was also an insurance      20   actually incurred $10,000 in travel, meals, and\n21   broker. We jointly went out to look at projects       21   entertainment expenses?\n22   together. He did a great deal of research, a great    22       A I probably incurred more than that. And\n                                             Page 270                                                    Page 272\n 1   deal of marketing stuff. He was constantly in          1   some of it may not even be recorded.\n 2   contact because he was -- had been in the insurance    2       Q Do you have any basis to say that you\n 3   business longer than I had. He was constantly in       3   definitely incurred $10,000 in travel, meal, and\n 4   contact with the various sources we were trying to     4   entertainment --\n 5   use, like Swiss Re, Aon, White Mountain, Risk          5       A I have receipts. I have told you on\n 6   Mountains, Goldman Sachs, Bear Stearns. You name       6   every single return I have filed, I have backup\n 7   it. Forbes, Alexander Forbes in Europe. He was         7   receipts which my accountant used to add up to come\n 8   constantly in touch with these people in order to      8   to the decisions about what should be placed on my\n 9   come up with the -- the type of insurance that we      9   return. I do not have one entry on my tax returns\n10   would need for whatever execution might be            10   that does not have corresponding receipts.\n11   necessary.                                            11           I have just spent almost $10,000 trying\n12           We did presentations to Fannie Mae, we        12   to get all of my tax returns filed accurately, and\n13   did presentations to everybody you can think of.      13   I am now --\n14   In this business.                                     14                 MR. DANIELS: Marialice, I don't\n15       Q You identify $10,000 in travel meals and        15   think you need to go on.\n16   entertainment expenses. Do you see that?              16                 THE WITNESS: I'm just so sick\n17       A That would be consistent with the 1500          17   of this.\n18   that I talked about per month on an average in my     18                 MR. DANIELS: I mean this\n19   response in the interrogatory that you referred me    19   question's been asked and asked and asked and\n20   to earlier. And as you can see that's even less       20   asked. I think she gave a generic answer to --\n21   than what I believe the actual amount might have      21   to -- to your questions: Yes, she has receipts.\n22   been. It was probably more than that. But we were     22   BY MS. BECKER:\n\n                                                                                 36 (Pages 269 to 272)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                                  MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                        VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                            a77cbcf5-7ff0-478d-a5f4-3a9a93751c41\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB            Document 33-8           Filed 06/21/2007      Page 38 of 74\n\n                                       Marialice Williams\n                                              Page 273                                                     Page 275\n 1       Q Did you independently review those                 1       A No. Temporary services. It's an -- a\n 2   receipts to verify whether you had incurred $10,000      2   term of art. I believe it's defined as people who\n 3   of expenses in meals, travel, and entertainment for      3   do work on a temporary basis.\n 4   the year 2001?                                           4       Q Who are the individuals that you\n 5       A I don't remember. I don't remember.                5   retained for temporary services?\n 6          I provided the information to my                  6       A I can't tell you their names right now.\n 7   accountant, and my accountant used a calculator and      7   I have the receipts.\n 8   added it up and put it on the return. I do not           8       Q Are you willing to produce those\n 9   recall whether I independently sat down and added        9   receipts?\n10   up each receipt. Do you do that? I don't gen --         10       A No.\n11   generally do that on my tax returns. I rely on a        11       Q Can you give me any more information\n12   professional person to do it.                           12   about what expenses that you're claiming in\n13       Q What's the name of the person who                 13   temporary services on your 2001 tax return?\n14   prepared your tax returns?                              14       A They went to individuals who performed\n15       A It's right here on the return. Just               15   temporary services for me, such as administrative\n16   look at it and see. It's right here on the return.      16   typing, filing, and that kind of thing. I was\n17   The DMP Group, LLC, 5600 Colorado Avenue,               17   running a -- a very -- a very serious business and\n18   Northwest.                                              18   making no money. I could not hire someone\n19       Q What's the --                                     19   full-time. I had to hire some different people at\n20       A Washington, DC 20011. Employer ID                 20   different times to perform those services which\n21   number 68-049-7011. I believe her -- her social         21   were necessary to keep me on track so that I could\n22   security number is                  and her telephone   22   keep my eye on the prize, which I never got.\n                                              Page 274                                                     Page 276\n 1   number is (202)726-2630.                                 1       Q Can you explain the $7,200 in telephone\n 2                MS. BECKER: Move to strike as               2   expenses and what those were based on?\n 3   non-responsive.                                          3       A What was it based on? It was based on\n 4   BY MS. BECKER:                                           4   the usage of my telephones.\n 5       Q Who's the individual at the DMP Group              5       Q How many telephones did you have?\n 6   who prepared this return?                                6       A Several. I don't know. Maybe seven,\n 7       A The DMP Group prepared my return. I                7   maybe five. They were commercial lines. Anybody\n 8   cannot tell you whether it was Schlimb (ph) or           8   who runs any kind of business, including a law\n 9   Schlomb (ph). It was the DMP Group who prepared          9   firm, should know that commercial phone costs are\n10   the return.                                             10   higher than residential. And if you also have\n11       Q You referred to a she? Was there a                11   services for computers, that gets added in. If you\n12   person you were referring to --                         12   have a fax machine that gets added in.\n13       A Dana Lucas was the person who was there           13       Q Were you paying a flat rate?\n14   who did some of the work, and there were other          14       A Is there an issue here about whether or\n15   people who worked on it.                                15   not I was running a bona fide business, whether or\n16       Q On Page 5 of your tax return, you                 16   not I was actually at the Watergate? This seems to\n17   identified $12,000 in temporary services. Do you        17   be coming up consistently from you. If -- if you\n18   see that?                                               18   want to know, I have filed a tax return. That is\n19       A Yes. Uh-huh.                                      19   the evidence that I had the expense.\n20       Q And what is that for?                             20           Where did the tax return come from?\n21       A Temporary services.                               21   I've told you over and over again I have receipts.\n22       Q Can you explain what that means?                  22   I've told you over and over again that the receipts\n                                                                                   37 (Pages 273 to 276)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                                    MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                          VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                              a77cbcf5-7ff0-478d-a5f4-3a9a93751c41\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 33-8           Filed 06/21/2007       Page 39 of 74\n\n                                      Marialice Williams\n                                             Page 277                                                    Page 279\n 1   are the basis for this. Do you think that I just       1   somebody's crazy or the law is really crazy,\n 2   sat around and made some stuff up to put in a tax      2   because this is outrageous. There's nothing I'm\n 3   return because it -- it would satisfy my desire        3   going to say to you on any one of those returns\n 4   to -- whatever? I mean I -- I don't understand         4   that's any different from what I've said to you\n 5   your questioning and it's dragging on and on, and      5   about 2001. I have my backup.\n 6   it is the worst interrogation I've ever had in my      6           You can see -- I guess what you're upset\n 7   life over something that's completely irrelevant.      7   about is that it really shows that I paid all this\n 8            If you can't take my tax return that I        8   stuff and that you all didn't pay me and therefore\n 9   filed with the Internal Revenue Service and use it     9   I went bankrupt. And nearly lost my mind. All\n10   and look at it and say, okay, do you have receipts    10   because of lying and cheating and backstabbing and\n11   for this, yes, well, what else do you want me to      11   everything else that Fannie Mae does to cover\n12   tell you? There's nothing else to say. Here's my      12   itself up. So if you want to go through all that,\n13   tax return. I have the receipts. Dana Lucas and       13   that's fine, and I'll go through it if my attorney\n14   the DMP Group prepared the return. I filed it with    14   tells me I have to. But I think you're wasting\n15   the IRS. Don't you think it's the IRS's job to        15   everybody's money and time.\n16   look into it?                                         16           I'm not going to give you any different\n17        Q Did you have a flat rate with your             17   answer on any question you give me on my tax\n18   telephone companies or were you paying based on --    18   returns, other than the ones you've just gotten.\n19        A I don't remember what it was. That was         19   Now I'm sorry that I gave you my tax returns.\n20   so long ago. Do you have a flat rate? Do you know     20   Because obviously you don't even know what to do\n21   whether or not in 2001 you had a flat rate on your    21   with them.\n22   commercial telephone? I don't remember. I'm           22                 MS. BECKER: Have you marked\n                                             Page 278                                                    Page 280\n 1   sorry. But we can certainly call Verizon or            1   this as exhibit --\n 2   whoever it was, and we can get the answer to that      2                MADAM REPORTER: Haven't seen\n 3   for you.                                               3   it --\n 4       Q Are you willing to provide your receipts         4                THE WITNESS: Do I have to sit\n 5   relating to your telephone costs?                      5   here and do this with every one of these tax\n 6       A No.                                              6   returns?\n 7                MS. BECKER: I'd like to ask the           7                MR. DANIELS: You have to bear\n 8   court reporter to mark this as --                      8   under the way she does things.\n 9                THE WITNESS: Are we going to go           9                THE WITNESS: Well, she can't\n10   through this on every return? I can't do this         10   cause me to lose my -- my livelihood. She's --\n11   today. I'm sorry, I can't give you any more           11   that's not fair. I mean they didn't give me --\n12   answers. I've got to go. You did not tell me I        12                MR. DANIELS: Four -- 4:00 --\n13   was going to be here for seven hours today. I was     13                THE WITNESS: -- a livelihood to\n14   told it was going to be a couple of hours, that you   14   begin with and now they want to take away the one I\n15   only had a couple hours more to do. And you're now    15   have.\n16   into five and a half hours.                           16                MR. DANIELS: Well, what I would\n17           And I work for a living and the reason I      17   propose is that we go until four and reconvene.\n18   have any income at all is because I have to work      18                THE WITNESS: I can't go until\n19   for a living on an hourly basis. And I really         19   four. I have to go 'til ten minutes of four.\n20   can't go through this crap. And if my lawyer tells    20                MR. DANIELS: Ten minutes of\n21   me I have to sit here and go through the same thing   21   four and then we reconvene to finish what they want\n22   on every one of these returns, I'm going to say       22   to do and for our redirect. 'Cause there's no way\n                                                                                 38 (Pages 277 to 280)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                                  MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                        VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                            a77cbcf5-7ff0-478d-a5f4-3a9a93751c41\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 33-8           Filed 06/21/2007       Page 40 of 74\n\n                                      Marialice Williams\n                                             Page 281                                                    Page 283\n 1   I'm going to finish my redirect, giving where we       1   amended returns that were prepared by this same\n 2   are right now.                                         2   individual but they were amended. So -- that's the\n 3                MADAM REPORTER: I don't have              3   same question. You're going to ask me the same\n 4   that --                                                4   question. Go ahead. How do you know these are\n 5                MS. BECKER: I'd like to ask the           5   your receipts, how do you know you had this?\n 6   court reporter to mark this as Exhibit 17.             6   Because I had the receipts.\n 7                THE WITNESS: I would never hire           7       Q When did you provide information to the\n 8   this law firm. All this wasting time --                8   DPM Group in connection with your 2002 tax return?\n 9       (Deposition Exhibit No. 17 - 2002 Form 1040,       9       A In 2003. Or '4. Or maybe it was '5.\n10       U.S.Individual Income Tax Return for the          10   I'm not sure.\n11       witness - was marked for identification.)         11       Q When was this filed with the IRS?\n12                MR. DANIELS: Let me ask -- I             12       A Same time I told you I filed them. I've\n13   mean I -- are we going to have -- can we proceed to   13   already answered that question, 2000 -- zero, 2001,\n14   quarter to four -- ten to four and reset it for       14   2002, '3, '4, and '5 were filed in September of\n15   another date to finish this and to do my redirect?    15   2005 -- '6.\n16                MS. BECKER: I'd like to finish           16                 MR. DANIELS: Six.\n17   today if we can.                                      17   BY MS. BECKER:\n18                THE WITNESS: I cannot stay               18       Q You've not provided us with any tax\n19   here.                                                 19   returns for 2004; is that correct?\n20                MR. DANIELS: We can -- she says          20       A I explained that to you when I gave you\n21   she can't. And I -- I'm going to need time for        21   the returns. I said the 2004 is being reviewed and\n22   my --                                                 22   will be finalized by the end of this week. I gave\n                                             Page 282                                                    Page 284\n 1                THE WITNESS: You told me two              1   you the original of 2005 which will be filed\n 2   hours and it's not fair for you to keep me five and    2   tomorrow. 2000 is being reworked because there's\n 3   a half. So if you can't be honest about what           3   some questions about whether or not my spouse filed\n 4   you're doing, then I don't see why I have to be        4   an independent return in that year; therefore,\n 5   responsive to you. I think you need to accommodate     5   another return may have to be prepared.\n 6   me. You have a job.                                    6                 MR. DANIELS: Did you get back\n 7                MR. DANIELS: Marialice --                 7   your originals, Marialice?\n 8                THE WITNESS: I don't have a               8                 THE WITNESS: Yes, she gave me\n 9   job.                                                   9   back the original.\n10   BY MS. BECKER:                                        10   BY MS. BECKER:\n11       Q Are you looking at your 2002 tax return?        11        Q Do you have an original return that you\n12       A I don't have it.                                12   filed for 2004?\n13       Q When was this document prepared?                13        A I just told you that 2004 is being\n14       A I don't know.                                   14   reviewed and reworked and will be filed before the\n15       Q Was it prepared in 2003?                        15   end of the week, and I will send you a copy. 2005\n16       A I don't know.                                   16   is in its original form, which I gave you this\n17       Q Who prepared this document?                     17   morning, which has been returned to me. 2003, '2,\n18       A The DMP Group. Dana Lucas, I imagine.           18   and '1 you have been given copies of.\n19       Q When did you provide --                         19            And 2000 -- listen carefully because\n20       A All of my tax returns were prepared by          20   you're going to ask me again -- 2000 is not -- has\n21   the same individual for the years 2000, 2001, 2002,   21   been filed and will be amended because there's some\n22   and 2003. 2004 and 2005 were prepared -- were         22   question as to whether or not my husband filed a\n                                                                                 39 (Pages 281 to 284)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                                  MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                        VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                            a77cbcf5-7ff0-478d-a5f4-3a9a93751c41\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 33-8           Filed 06/21/2007       Page 41 of 74\n\n                                      Marialice Williams\n                                             Page 285                                                    Page 287\n 1   separate return in that year.                          1   been asked and answered. Please, Evelyn, please.\n 2               MR. DANIELS: In the                        2                 MS. BECKER: What -- what is it\n 3   communication concerning these tax returns we said     3   about -- what is it about the -- that was --\n 4   we wouldn't have all the tax returns today, that we    4                 MR. DANIELS: I mean she's --\n 5   would provide the rest of them as soon as they're      5   she's -- she's explained it three times to you\n 6   available and give you an opportunity to ex --         6   already, four times.\n 7   examine her on them in this deposition. On Friday      7                 MS. BECKER: What is it about --\n 8   that was communication.                                8                 THE WITNESS: Because my\n 9   BY MS. BECKER:                                         9   attorney said, give them the tax returns. I gave\n10       Q Have you already filed the tax return           10   them to you, told you why you didn't have the ones\n11   for 2004?                                             11   you didn't have, then I come in here, you want to\n12       A No -- yes. And I just told you it is            12   ask me every detail again.\n13   being reworked and amended. Did you understand        13           I've told you four times why you have\n14   that?                                                 14   exactly what you do and what you don't have. I've\n15       Q Are you willing to provide the original         15   explained to you when you're going to have them.\n16   2004 return that you filed?                           16   But you keep asking me the same thing over and over\n17       A No.                                             17   again. And I can't answer it any other way.\n18       Q Why not?                                        18           I mean what's more important? I could\n19       A Because it's incorrect and I needed to          19   give you some questions to ask me about the tax\n20   amend it; that's why I had to go pay another $5,000   20   returns, like, gee, you had $170,000 loss in 2002.\n21   to another accountant.                                21   I bet that was because Fannie Mae didn't give you\n22       Q What's incorrect about it?                      22   any business and you had to spend your entire\n                                             Page 286                                                    Page 288\n 1        A I don't know. It's incorrect. I'm not           1   retirement in that little pissy package they gave\n 2   an accountant. My name is not CPA, it's JD.            2   you to stay alive and do this business until Fannie\n 3        Q Is your testimony that you don't know           3   Mae did some with you, which they ultimately never\n 4   what's incorrect --                                    4   did, and therefore you had to find another means of\n 5        A I don't know what's incorrect on the            5   making a living. If you want to ask me that, I can\n 6   return.                                                6   answer those questions. But you're going through\n 7        Q -- on your 2004 tax return?                     7   nonsense.\n 8        A No, I don't know what's incorrect on the        8            I mean the return is here. I told you\n 9   aturn [sic]. I had to hire a second -- a -- a CPA      9   it was filed and signed and that this is a copy\n10   to fix the first one. If I knew, I would've done      10   that I printed off of my computer this morning. I\n11   it myself.                                            11   did not save a copy of the signed return. Now, if\n12        Q Did you know what's incorrect about your       12   you want me to get a verification from IRS that\n13   2000 tax return?                                      13   this is in fact a correct return, that's fine, but\n14        A I just told you that it appears that my        14   it's all clear as a bell to me. And if I tell you\n15   husband filed separately.                             15   that I have backup documentation for each one of\n16           Don't you listen? I am so tired of            16   these numbers, what is the issue? Other than\n17   repeating this over and over again. You are so        17   harassment.\n18   irritating. Want to ask me again?                     18   BY MS. BECKER:\n19        Q Yes. I'd -- I'd like to know --                19        Q I'm asking about your 2000 tax return.\n20        A You can ask me as many times as you            20        A And I told you --\n21   like.                                                 21                  MR. DANIELS: What's your\n22                 MR. DANIELS: All right. It's            22   question, Evelyn, on the 2000 tax return?\n                                                                                 40 (Pages 285 to 288)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                                  MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                        VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                            a77cbcf5-7ff0-478d-a5f4-3a9a93751c41\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 33-8          Filed 06/21/2007      Page 42 of 74\n\n                                     Marialice Williams\n                                            Page 289                                                    Page 291\n 1   BY MS. BECKER:                                        1           Now, you want me to say it again?\n 2       Q My question is: What is it about the            2   BY MS. BECKER:\n 3   2000 tax return as it was filed that's inaccurate?    3       Q Directing your attention to your 2002\n 4       A I --                                            4   tax return and looking specifically at Page 2 of\n 5                MR. DANIELS: Marialice, I                5   this return, you did sign a copy of this return at\n 6   direct you not to answer the question.                6   some time; is that correct?\n 7                THE WITNESS: Okay.                       7       A As I've stated previously, I signed all\n 8                MR. DANIELS: You've answered it          8   of these returns when I filed them.\n 9   four -- four or five times already. And Evelyn can    9       Q What's the date on which you signed this\n10   look at the --                                       10   return?\n11                THE WITNESS: Records and see.           11       A I don't recall.\n12                MR. DANIELS: -- transcript and          12       Q Turning your attention to page --\n13   see what the answer is.                              13       A As I also told you, they were all filed\n14                MS. BECKER: What's the basis            14   in September of 2006. I have said that four times\n15   for your instruction?                                15   also.\n16                MR. DANIELS: Asked and                  16       Q Is that when you would've signed them?\n17   answered. The same exact question. The same exact    17                MR. DANIELS: Just answer yes\n18   question.                                            18   or no.\n19                MS. BECKER: That's not a                19                THE WITNESS: I -- yes.\n20   legitimate basis for an instruction not to answer.   20                MR. DANIELS: Good.\n21   If you want to follow --                             21                THE WITNESS: God.\n22                MR. DANIELS: Well, I mean if --         22   BY MS. BECKER:\n                                            Page 290                                                    Page 292\n 1   if you were -- you were asking probing questions      1       Q Turning your attention to Page 4 of this\n 2   which -- which went to -- to question her             2   return. You're identifying your business as Risk\n 3   response --                                           3   Mitigation Strategist, LLC; is that correct?\n 4                 THE WITNESS: Well, let's just           4       A That is on there. That may or may not\n 5   tell her one more time because --                     5   be correct.\n 6                 MR. DANIELS: Well, go ahead and         6       Q What may be incorrect about it?\n 7   answer --                                             7       A The LLC may be incorrect for 2002. I\n 8                 THE WITNESS: -- obviously she           8   would have to go back and check.\n 9   has an issue with her hearing.                        9       Q Can you explain why you identified your\n10                 MR. DANIELS: Okay. Ask her one         10   business or profession as legal consultant?\n11   more time.                                           11       A That's actually -- it should be legal,\n12                 THE WITNESS: And her memory.           12   comma, consultant.\n13   Because she can't even remember what questions she   13       Q You indicate in part one of this return\n14   asks me.                                             14   $13,272 in income. Do you see that?\n15                 MR. DANIELS: Go ahead.                 15       A Yes.\n16   Tell her -- tell her the answer.                     16       Q Where does that $13,272 in income come\n17                 THE WITNESS: My 2000 return is         17   from?\n18   not filed because I filed it originally with -- as   18       A I don't know because I'm not looking at\n19   a joint tax return with my husband. As I've told     19   the backup information.\n20   you five times now, it appears he may have filed     20       Q Do you know whether you received income\n21   his own return individually for that year. As a      21   in 2002 from any source?\n22   result, I think I have to file a different return.   22       A I know what's listed on my tax retet --\n                                                                               41 (Pages 289 to 292)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                                MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                      VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                           a77cbcf5-7ff0-478d-a5f4-3a9a93751c41\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB         Document 33-8           Filed 06/21/2007      Page 43 of 74\n\n                                     Marialice Williams\n                                            Page 293                                                    Page 295\n 1   return is a reflection of what is in my records.      1   amount of $389; do you see that?\n 2       Q Can you give me any -- more information         2        A Yes -- no, I don't -- yes, I see that,\n 3   about --                                              3   mm-hmm.\n 4       A No, I can't.                                    4        Q Do you know what that was for?\n 5       Q -- the source -- the source --                  5        A No. It's in my records.\n 6       A No.                                             6        Q In 2002 you identify $10,000 in travel,\n 7       Q -- of your income in 2002?                      7   meal, and entertainment expenses. Do you see that?\n 8       A I can't. No, I can't. And I'm not               8        A Yes, I do.\n 9   looking at the records.                               9        Q Does it strike you as unusual that your\n10       Q And the only place --                          10   travel, meal, and entertainment expenses in 2001\n11       A It was not from Fannie Mae.                    11   and 2002 were identical?\n12       Q Is the only place that I would know            12        A No.\n13   where that income came from by looking at your       13        Q Why not?\n14   backup documentation?                                14        A I don't know. I don't know. I'm sorry.\n15       A For $13,000? I don't --                        15   I don't know. If you look at the backup, maybe\n16                MR. DANIELS: I don't -- I don't         16   we'll know, but I don't have the backup with me.\n17   see the relevance of that at all. I mean if she      17   I'm sorry.\n18   received money from Fannie Mae, that -- you'd all    18        Q And you're not willing to provide it?\n19   know about that. Other than that, her sources of     19        A And I'm not going to show it to you.\n20   income have nothing to do with this whatsoever.      20   It's my stated tax return that I've agreed in\n21   BY MS. BECKER:                                       21   writing, that I signed. So every question you ask\n22       Q Do you know what your sources of income        22   me, you're asking me did you sign this tax return,\n                                            Page 294                                                    Page 296\n 1   were in 2002?                                         1   did you look at those numbers and are they correct?\n 2                MR. DANIELS: Marialice, don't            2   And all I can say to you is I don't know what any\n 3   answer the question any further.                      3   of these numbers.\n 4   BY MS. BECKER:                                        4           So you can ask me all of them\n 5       Q Are you going to follow your counsel's          5   individually, which I'm sure you will, but I'm\n 6   instruction?                                          6   telling you right now unless I'm looking at the\n 7       A I have nothing to say.                          7   backup, I'm not going to have an answer for you. I\n 8       Q You identify in part two under expenses         8   apologize but I just don't. I don't memorize my\n 9   $40,930 in legal and professional services. Do you    9   expenses for a year.\n10   see that?                                            10        Q Looking to the next page of your tax\n11       A Yes.                                           11   return in 2002, you identify $1,150 in dues and\n12       Q Do you know what that's for?                   12   subscriptions. Do you see that?\n13       A No. It's in my records.                        13        A Yes, I do.\n14       Q Other than looking at your records, is         14        Q Do you know what that's for?\n15   there any way that I can determine what your         15        A No. I don't. I'm sure it's in my\n16   expenses for legal and professional services in      16   expenses but I just don't know.\n17   2002 were?                                           17   BY MS. BECKER:\n18       A No.                                            18        Q Do you know what the conference that you\n19       Q Are you willing to provide those               19   list under part five other expenses is?\n20   records?                                             20        A I don't remember.\n21       A No.                                            21        Q You don't know what that conference was?\n22       Q You identify office expenses in the            22        A I don't remember. It was 2002. I just\n                                                                                42 (Pages 293 to 296)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                                 MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                       VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                           a77cbcf5-7ff0-478d-a5f4-3a9a93751c41\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 33-8          Filed 06/21/2007       Page 44 of 74\n\n                                    Marialice Williams\n                                          Page 297                                                    Page 299\n 1   don't remember, I'm sorry.                          1   L -- RMS was an LLC in 2002 either. RMS is a -- is\n 2       Q Do you know what the temporary services       2   the name of a part of the business that I do. I do\n 3   are that you claimed?                               3   four different or five different things. RMS is\n 4       A I'm sure they're the same ones I had          4   one of them.\n 5   from the year before. That I explained to you. I    5       Q Is there a reason that you don't list\n 6   had someone come in and do administrative stuff     6   RMS here on your 2003 tax return?\n 7   and -- from time to time.                           7       A Yes, because it's not an independent\n 8       Q Do you remember the name of any of those      8   entity so I didn't list it.\n 9   individuals?                                        9       Q What do you mean by \"it's not an\n10       A No, I don't remember anybody from 2002.      10   independent entity\"?\n11   I'd have to look in my records.                    11       A Just what I said. And it didn't have\n12       Q Did you work with a temporary service        12   any income, so therefore I put down where I had the\n13   agency?                                            13   income from. And that's what's under my income for\n14       A No, I did not.                               14   that year. RMS didn't have any income.\n15       Q How did you hire the individuals that        15       Q Why --\n16   you identified --                                  16       A It only existed -- it had some\n17       A I don't remember.                            17   tangential income because of some work I might've\n18       Q Are these individuals different from the     18   done for somebody in the mortgage industry. But --\n19   office assistant that you identified in your       19   you know, my RMS business was formed to do business\n20   interrogatory responses?                           20   with Fannie Mae. Do you know of any business\n21       A I don't know. I don't remember.              21   Fannie Mae gave me? I don't know of any.\n22                MS. BECKER: I'd like to ask the       22   Therefore, there was no reason to keep RMS as a --\n                                          Page 298                                                    Page 300\n 1   court reporter to mark this as Exhibit 18.          1   and -- and if it had no income, there was no reason\n 2       (Deposition Exhibit No. 18 - 2003 Form 1040,    2   in 2003 to put it on the tax return.\n 3       U.S. Individual Income Tax Return for the       3        Q Why did you list Risk Mitigation\n 4       witness - was marked for identification.)       4   Strategists, LLC on your 2002 tax return?\n 5   BY MS. BECKER:                                      5        A I didn't list it. My accountant listed\n 6       Q Turning your attention to Page 4 of this      6   it and it's probably incorrect.\n 7   exhibit --                                          7        Q Do you intend to go back and amend your\n 8               MR. LEDERER: What year is that          8   2002 tax return?\n 9   return?                                             9        A I don't know.\n10               MS. BECKER: 2003.                      10        Q You identify in your 2003 tax return\n11               MR. DANIELS: 2003.                     11   $108,343 in income. Do you see that?\n12               MR. LEDERER: Thank you.                12        A I certainly do.\n13   BY MS. BECKER:                                     13        Q And what's the source of that income?\n14       Q You identify again under business name,      14        A Non-Fannie Mae work.\n15   M. Williams and Associates; do you see that?       15        Q Can you be more specific?\n16       A That's right, and it doesn't have LLC        16        A No, I can't. It's consulting fees. I\n17   next to it.                                        17   think that's what it says here. Consultant,\n18       Q And is this accurate for 2003?               18   consulting fees.\n19       A Yes, it is.                                  19        Q Who paid you the consulting fees in\n20       Q Is that because RMS was dissolved as of      20   2003?\n21   2003?                                              21        A The DC Department of Mental Health and\n22       A No. RMS, as I said, and I don't believe      22   others. And I don't recall the others.\n                                                                              43 (Pages 297 to 300)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                               MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                     VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                         a77cbcf5-7ff0-478d-a5f4-3a9a93751c41\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 33-8           Filed 06/21/2007      Page 45 of 74\n\n                                      Marialice Williams\n                                             Page 301                                                    Page 303\n 1        Q Do you remember how much the DC                 1   number?\n 2   Department of Mental Health paid you in consulting     2       A I did -- it was not my job to verify the\n 3   fees?                                                  3   number. My job is to provide an accountant with\n 4        A No, I don't remember what it was                4   receipts. When the accountant adds up the\n 5   specifically.                                          5   receipts, they put them on this form.\n 6        Q Do you remember whether they were the           6       Q What steps did you take to make sure\n 7   majority of this amount?                               7   that the tax returns that you filed with the IRS\n 8        A Probably so.                                    8   were accurate?\n 9        Q How would I determine what your income          9       A I hired an accountant who was licensed\n10   was from consulting fees in 2003?                     10   by the state of Washington, DC, whose\n11        A By what I put on my tax return, what I         11   responsibility was to complete returns based on\n12   turned into the Internal Revenue Service, and from    12   information provided by the customer. I then hired\n13   the receipts I have in my own files.                  13   someone who was former head of the tax division for\n14            Are you saying I'm a liar and that this      14   the United States Internal Revenue, and he went\n15   is -- I did not make this money? I don't get what     15   back and redid 2004 and 2005. I gave him the same\n16   your point is if it's sitting right here in front     16   receipts. So I guess they must be accurate.\n17   of you. And it has a specific number and it says:     17       Q What's the name of the individual who\n18   Reported to you on Form W-2 on the                    18   redid your 2004 and 2005 tax returns?\n19   statutory employee -- blah -- blah, blah, blah,       19       A It's on the tax return I gave you for\n20   blah, blah, blah.                                     20   2005. You can get the correct spelling of his\n21            Well, this is my gross receipts. My          21   name. It's Daniel Black, CPA.\n22   gross receipts were 108,000 in 2003. My accountant    22                THE WITNESS: I have to go. I\n                                             Page 302                                                    Page 304\n 1   obviously added it up from numbers that I gave her     1   cannot stay any longer. You told me you were going\n 2   from receipts and so forth. I have the receipts.       2   to be two hours, and I'm sorry, I -- I can't -- I\n 3   That's what it is.                                     3   can't do this anymore. Because I -- I have things\n 4           What else? It's not from Fannie Mae.           4   I have to do.\n 5   It's not from Bob Jones.                               5                 MR. DANIELS: You have to do --\n 6        Q You're not willing to provide those             6                 THE WITNESS: So this is -- I've\n 7   receipts; is that correct?                             7   given you now four hours more than you said it was\n 8        A No, I'm not giving you that. If it's            8   going to take, and had you told me it was going to\n 9   not from you, what do you care? Fannie Mae didn't      9   be six hours, I could've prepared for that. But\n10   pay it.                                               10   I'm really sorry. I do have to make a living, and\n11        Q Looking at your expenses in part two           11   I can't let you keep me --\n12   under legal and professional services expenses, you   12                 MR. DANIELS: Can we -- can we\n13   identified $19,793; do you see that?                  13   set another date to finish up?\n14        A Right, mm-hmm.                                 14                 MS. BECKER: What is the basis\n15        Q What is that for?                              15   for your statement that we told you that this would\n16        A I can't remember. It's paid to                 16   be two hours?\n17   individuals. The receipts are in the file.            17                 THE WITNESS: You told me two\n18        Q And again, you identified $10,000 in           18   hours the last -- when we left here the last time,\n19   travel, meals, and entertainment expenses; do you     19   you said a couple of hours.\n20   see that?                                             20                 MS. BECKER: That's not what I\n21        A Yes, I do.                                     21   said, ma'am.\n22        Q Did you do anything to verify that             22                 THE WITNESS: Well --\n                                                                                 44 (Pages 301 to 304)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                                  MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                        VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                            a77cbcf5-7ff0-478d-a5f4-3a9a93751c41\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 33-8          Filed 06/21/2007      Page 46 of 74\n\n                                      Marialice Williams\n                                              Page 305                                                   Page 307\n 1                 MR. DANIELS: Marialice --                1   original exhibits, by the way.\n 2                 THE WITNESS: -- you can think            2                MR. DANIELS: Is she taking --\n 3   that's not what you said; that is what you said to     3                MS. GRUNDEMAN: Yeah.\n 4   me. And if you didn't mean to say that, then you       4                MR. LEDERER: Marialice --\n 5   said it inadvertently, which I will accept, but you    5                MR. DANIELS: I -- I'd say the\n 6   have to understand that I was --                       6   23rd or the 24th and we can finish up -- that --\n 7                 MR. DANIELS: We can do this              7   that'd be the end of everything.\n 8   again.                                                 8                THE WITNESS: These are not for\n 9                 THE WITNESS: -- led to believe           9   me?\n10   that it was two hours by you --                       10                MR. LEDERER: There -- there --\n11                 MR. LEDERER: You're supposed            11   their original marked exhibits. We have copies.\n12   to --                                                 12                MR. DANIELS: And I -- I'll have\n13                 THE WITNESS: -- and if it was           13   an hour, hour and a half of cross-examination.\n14   not two hours, you should have let me know.           14                MS. BECKER: We will check the\n15                 MR. LEDERER: You're going to            15   schedule and our calendars and make a determination\n16   get the 2005 return.                                  16   as to whether we'll continue --\n17                 MR. DANIELS: How can we finish          17                MR. DANIELS: Fair enough.\n18   up without -- reasonably. I know he's anxious to      18                MS. BECKER: -- the deposition\n19   file his -- his stuff, but --                         19   on those dates --\n20                 MS. BECKER: When is --                  20                MR. DANIELS: Okay. Thank you\n21                 MR. DANIELS: Lawyers are                21   very much.\n22   supposed to work this out.                            22                MS. BECKER: -- or propose other\n                                              Page 306                                                   Page 308\n 1               VIDEOGRAPHER: Excuse me.               1 dates. Thank you.\n 2               MS. BECKER: When is your client        2             MR. LEDERER: Or -- or propose\n 3   available?                                         3 other dates and then -- that's fine.\n 4                MR. DANIELS: June --                  4             VIDEOGRAPHER: This testimony is\n 5                VIDEOGRAPHER: Do you want to 5 con -- ended for the day at 3:51:35.\n 6   stay on the record?                                6     (Thereupon, at 3:52 p.m. the deposition was\n 7                MS. BECKER: Yes.                      7     adjourned sine die.)\n 8                MR. DANIELS: Yeah, I think so.        8     (The witness reserved signature.)\n 9                MS. BECKER: When is your client       9\n10   available for deposition to continue --           10\n11                MR. DANIELS: Well, my client's       11\n12   available but I'm not. I -- I'll be back -- I'll  12\n13   be back the 19th, so -- and we've got a status    13\n14   conference on the 22nd. I -- I could do it --     14\n15   what is your schedule, Marialice?                 15\n16                THE WITNESS: I'm -- whenever         16\n17   you all are available as long as you give me some 17\n18   idea of the amount of time it's going to take.    18\n19                MR. DANIELS: Okay. I -- you --       19\n20   you're my ride so hold on. And I don't know your 20\n21   car --                                            21\n22                MS. GRUNDEMAN: We need the           22\n                                                                                 45 (Pages 305 to 308)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                                  MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                        VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                            a77cbcf5-7ff0-478d-a5f4-3a9a93751c41\n\f           Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB             Document 33-8             Filed 06/21/2007          Page 47 of 74\n\n                                         Marialice Williams\n                                                 Page 309                                                          Page 311\n 1                                                              1\n                                                                   Harley Jay Daniels, Esq.\n 2                                                               2 Law Offices of Harley Jay Daniels\n 3           *     *      *                                        3003 Van Ness Street, Northwest\n 4                                                               3 Suite W228\n                                                                   Washington, DC 20008\n 5          ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF DEPONENT                           4\n 6                                                                    IN RE: WILLIAMS V. FNMA, ET AL.\n                                                                 5          CONTINUED DEPO OF: MARIALICE B. WILLIAMS\n 7       I, Marialice Bathrus Williams, do hereby                6\n 8   acknowledge I have read and examined the foregoing pages    7 Dear Mr. Daniels:\n                                                                 8 Enclosed for review is your copy of the above referenced\n 9   of testimony, and the same is a true, correct and             deposition. Please have the deponent read the copy of\n10   complete transcription of the testimony given by me, and    9 the transcript and sign the enclosed certificate of\n11   any changes and/or corrections, if any, appear in the         deponent. Also enclosed is an errata sheet which the\n                                                                10 deponent should use to note corrections and the reasons\n12   attached errata sheet signed by me.                           for such corrections. This and any additional errata\n13                                                              11 sheets should be signed and dated by the deponent.\n                                                                12 The deponent has thirty days in which to read and sign\n14   ____________________ _______________________                  the transcript. After the deponent has reviewed the\n15   Date          Marialice Bathrus Williams                   13 copy of the transcript, please return the certificate of\n16                                                                 deponent and any errata sheets to 1020 19th Street,\n                                                                14 Northwest, Suite 620, Washington, D.C. 20036.\n17                                                              15 Sincerely,\n18                                                              16 Joanne Liverani\n                                                                17\n19                                                              18\n20                                                              19\n                                                                20\n21                                                              21\n22                                                              22\n\n                                                 Page 310                                                          Page 312\n 1           CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC                      1    ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES\n 2      I, Joanne Liverani, the officer before whom the             1020 19TH STREET, NORTHWEST\n 3   foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby certify that    2    SUITE 620\n                                                                    WASHINGTON, D.C. 20036\n 4   the witness whose testimony appears in the foregoing      3\n 5   deposition was duly sworn by me; that the testimony of                    ERRATA SHEET\n 6   said witness was taken by me in stenotype and thereafter 4\n 7   reduced to typewriting under my direction; that said           Case Name: WILLIAMS V. FNMA, ET AL.\n 8   deposition is a true record of the testimony given by     5    Witness Name: MARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS\n 9   said witness; that I am neither counsel for, related to,       Deposition Date: 5/7/07\n10   nor employed by any of the parties to the action in       6    Job No.: 180771\n11   which this deposition was taken; and, further, that I am  7    Page No. Line No. Change\n                                                               8\n12   not a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel\n                                                               9\n13   employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or       10\n14   otherwise interested in the outcome of this action.      11\n15                                                              12\n16                                                              13\n               Joanne Liverani,                                 14\n17             Registered Merit Reporter                        15\n               and Notary Public for the                        16\n                                                                17\n18             District of Columbia\n                                                                18\n   My Commission expires:                                       19\n19 July 31, 2010                                                20\n20                                                              21 _____________________________        ____________\n21                                                                   Signature          Date\n22                                                              22\n\n                                                                                         46 (Pages 309 to 312)\nEsquire Deposition Services                                                         MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                               VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                                      a77cbcf5-7ff0-478d-a5f4-3a9a93751c41\n\f        Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 33-8       Filed 06/21/2007    Page 48 of 74\n\n                                 Marialice Williams\n                                                                                               Page 1\n\n          A         acted 166:20            184:7               185:16 186:17         290:7,16 291:17\nAAA 153:17          action 132:6          African-America...    197:2 263:10          294:3 296:7\nABA 256:1,10          186:18 310:10,14      179:13,15 180:3     283:1,2 284:21      answered 259:21\nability 169:6,8,9   actions 199:13,17     agency 297:13         285:13                283:13 287:1\n  183:8               199:17              aggregation 200:22   amendment 190:8        289:8,17\nable 138:22 139:4   active 193:7 256:2      206:8,20 207:4      190:10              answering 249:20\n  146:15,20,21      activities 187:16       221:5 225:10       America 178:16       answers 136:11\n  153:14 168:4      actual 153:5            227:3 228:3         230:20 259:18         198:4,15 205:13\n  169:10,19,20        195:18 213:6        ago 147:6 202:3       260:15                249:12 278:12\n  170:9 211:13        226:20 227:2          238:10 255:16      American 171:11      answer's 259:22\n  225:12 247:14       234:14,16 247:5       277:20              229:4 255:5,16,18   anxious 305:18\nabsolute 147:9        270:21              agree 176:8 186:11    255:21 257:7,11     anybody 178:16\nabsolutely 172:14   add 194:17 199:11       209:16 252:14,16    259:13 260:6          183:17,21 191:8\n  188:19 202:6        234:15 258:19         253:13             amount 153:5           191:14 247:20\n  219:22 239:20       271:7,10,15 272:7   agreed 295:20         183:8 206:22          276:7 297:10\naccept 305:5        added 271:11,14       agreement 186:1,3     220:1 224:16        anybody's 181:5\naccess 156:12         273:8,9 276:11,12     187:11 188:3,18     227:20 237:4        anymore 304:3\n  219:8 256:19        302:1                 190:7 191:4,8,15    268:15 270:21       anyway 204:5\naccommodate         adding 271:18           197:6,7 207:8       271:7 295:1 301:7     215:7\n  282:5             additional 145:21       208:4,10 210:16     306:18              Aon 270:5\naccomplish 169:20     194:17 199:5,10       210:22 211:14,20   amounts 250:10       apartment 162:13\naccomplishments       311:10                212:1,2,7,21       andually 225:3         229:20 230:7,9,19\n  189:15            addresses 251:12        213:1,9 215:18     and/or 309:11          230:21,21,22\naccount 226:5       adds 303:4              224:3 240:15,21    announced 175:22       231:15\naccountant 261:14   adhered 215:3           243:15 245:9       annual 225:1 226:3   apologize 296:8\n  263:4 271:11,16   adjourned 308:7       agreements 197:12     226:9 227:13        apparent 225:15\n  272:7 273:7,7     administrative          210:12 225:22      annually 224:19      appear 309:11\n  285:21 286:2        275:15 297:6        ahead 260:21 283:4    225:3               APPEARANCES\n  300:5 301:22      advantage 240:5         290:6,15           anonymous 206:9        134:1\n  303:3,4,9         advice 240:12,14      al 132:12 134:16     answer 167:18        appears 250:20\naccounting 228:21     241:19 243:22         137:5 138:16        198:7 199:3,4,9       286:14 290:20\naccurate 148:10       245:15 265:3          198:17 311:4        199:11,12 202:11      310:4\n  198:22 206:3      affairs 136:13          312:4               202:17 206:1,7      approached 200:11\n  223:20 235:3        248:11 249:14       Alexander 270:7       207:5 210:8 216:1   approximately\n  298:18 303:8,16     266:19              alive 288:2           216:14 218:6          147:6,7 224:21\naccurately 204:21   affect 176:19 204:1   allegations 187:18    221:19 225:12       April 140:2 142:15\n  272:12            affidavit 231:11        187:22 188:14       229:12 241:20         142:17 143:3,5,20\nachievements        afford 161:16,17      allege 224:3          243:19 244:22         145:3,10,12,22\n  180:22            affordable 154:19     alleged 187:12        245:3,6,7,14,17       146:9,11 149:16\nacknowledge 309:8     155:1 171:15        allegedly 211:14      245:21 260:20,21      149:20 150:6\nACKNOWLED...          182:16 215:4        alleging 227:9        262:10 263:18,20      163:14\n  309:5               228:3 256:2,16,19   allow 208:6           264:22 265:5        area 143:9 157:17\nacquired 161:6        257:3               amend 206:1           272:20 278:2          158:15,19 159:13\n  162:10            African-American        285:20 300:7        279:17 287:17         159:22 160:4,7,11\n                      171:13 179:2,3      amended 136:10        288:6 289:6,13,20     171:15 230:4\n\n\nEsquire Deposition Services                                         MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                               VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB      Document 33-8       Filed 06/21/2007   Page 49 of 74\n\n                                  Marialice Williams\n                                                                                            Page 2\n\nareas 181:18         assumed 220:15      award 174:16,19     136:15,16 161:4       138:2,2,17 139:8\narranged 175:18      assured 182:1         175:9,19,20,21    161:14,22 162:1,3     139:15 147:11,18\narrangement          Atlanta 193:14        177:16            162:4,7 248:2,12      147:22 150:16\n  212:17             attached 309:12     aware 158:10        249:10 250:5          151:4 168:10\narrangements         attachments           170:16 171:9,10   253:11,21 254:1       185:6,13 186:5,14\n  225:6                249:14              174:21 199:14     254:14,21 259:6       197:14,22 198:8\narranging 238:13     attempted 156:18      200:5,8 216:19    260:14 271:4          198:11 209:2\narrived 168:19       attempting 166:16     246:21           Bar 171:11 255:21      210:20 212:11\n  172:9 185:5          171:14 196:21     awful 241:9        based 160:18 165:9     213:7 216:3,12\narrows 195:17        attended 242:14     a.m 133:5 137:9     170:1 177:11,14       218:9 219:11\nart 275:2            attention 140:11                        177:15 181:15         221:8,12,17,21\naside 153:6            152:4 167:7                B          183:19 199:16         235:22 237:9,12\nasked 151:13           191:17 196:14     B 252:22 253:7      224:15 226:8          237:18 241:21\n  165:14,16 171:18     199:2 202:10       311:5              228:7 234:13          242:3 244:1,4,14\n  203:1 205:7          221:18 224:1,12   back 147:1 158:21   271:8 276:2,3,3       244:20 245:18\n  213:13 218:2,4       229:11 237:19      172:2 173:7        277:18 303:11         248:5,9,16 250:1\n  245:13 265:6         250:21 254:15      193:10 210:2      bases 187:13           253:17 254:7\n  272:19,19,19,20      267:17 291:3,12    212:11 218:9      basic 192:12           259:3 261:15,19\n  287:1 289:16         292:1 298:6        221:15 259:11     basically 167:13       262:1,11,14,18\nasking 142:9         attitudes 179:5      284:6,9 292:8      188:20 213:15         263:22 264:4,8,17\n  164:20 203:6       attorney 165:2       300:7 303:15       230:17                264:21 265:11,17\n  259:8,10 260:21      194:8 198:20       306:12,13         basis 175:17           265:22 266:8\n  266:18 287:16        238:17 241:19     backed 234:21       187:19 188:15         267:1,5,13,16\n  288:19 290:1         242:16 249:10     backstabbing        224:18,20 231:19      269:12 272:22\n  295:22               252:8 253:4,11     279:10             240:9 244:1           274:2,4 278:7\nasks 143:5 290:14      279:13 287:9      backup 232:21       262:15 264:1,5,9      279:22 281:5,16\nassessed 153:1,3       310:12             233:6 234:2 268:6  264:18 267:2          282:10 283:17\nassessing 226:5      attorneys 198:20     272:6 279:5        271:19 272:2          284:10 285:9\nassessment 176:9       208:6              288:15 292:19      275:3 277:1           287:2,7 288:18\nasset 251:8,9        attorney's 265:2     293:14 295:15,16   278:19 289:14,20      289:1,14,19 291:2\nassign 169:12        attorney-client      296:7              304:14                291:22 293:21\nassignments            244:5,10          balance 145:17     Bates 132:8 136:6,9    294:4 296:17\n  180:14,16,21       attribute 178:20     162:5 227:18       139:12 150:19         297:22 298:5,10\n  181:8              aturn 286:9          236:6             Bathrus 132:4,16       298:13 304:14,20\nassistant 235:2,4    auction 157:10      ballpark 246:11     133:7 134:2 136:4     305:20 306:2,7,9\n  297:19             August 157:16       Baltimore 210:17    137:3,4 138:11        307:14,18,22\nassociate 246:5        201:21 242:2      Bank 230:19         186:18 198:16        becoming 177:21\nassociated 154:4     authorized 173:6     259:18 260:15      216:5,10 309:7,15    began 158:4 170:5\nAssociates 232:6     automobile 242:7    bankcard 260:15     312:5                 176:5\n  298:15             available 285:6     Bankers 256:4      bear 270:6 280:7      beginning 250:19\nAssociation 132:11     306:3,10,12,17    banking 193:9      Beasley 239:9          251:14\n  134:16 137:5       Avenue 135:3         195:1 246:18       242:12               begins 137:2\n  138:16 171:12        144:19 273:17      247:3,7           Becau 262:8           behalf 137:15\n  255:21 256:4       average 234:7,14    bankrupt 279:9     Becker 134:21          138:3,6,9\nassume 250:16          234:18 270:18     bankruptcy 136:13   136:3 137:12         believe 141:3,14\n\n\nEsquire Deposition Services                                       MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                             VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB         Document 33-8       Filed 06/21/2007      Page 50 of 74\n\n                                   Marialice Williams\n                                                                                                   Page 3\n\n  142:5 144:3 145:5   bit 144:5 213:19       212:3 224:9,9         299:19,20              224:3 242:17\n  145:9 146:2 147:7   black 178:19 179:7     269:21               businesses 251:14       243:3\n  148:11 149:18         179:11 200:16,22    brokerage 192:8        251:15               Cam's 219:21\n  151:22 155:15,19      303:21              brokered 202:8        Buyer 207:3           capability 183:6\n  156:22 157:15       blackballed 196:17    brokers 199:15                              capable 200:6\n  160:9,22 161:2      blah 301:19,19,19     broker's 201:19               C             capacity 181:8\n  162:16 165:4,8,20     301:19,20,20,20      224:21               C 136:1                 241:18 242:5\n  166:6 169:7,9       board 183:2           brought 192:6,9       calculate 224:13      capital 178:13\n  170:12 173:18,20    Bob 164:19,21          225:20                 226:10 229:14         182:16 222:19\n  177:5,6,10 184:8      165:7,9,10 166:20   building 158:3,13       232:9 233:10          232:1\n  188:1 189:17,20       167:1,5 168:7        230:5,7,11             234:13              captive 155:14\n  191:11 196:17         175:13 193:15       business 161:5,6,18   calculated 224:15       191:19 192:13,19\n  197:8 199:1,5         197:1,12 203:7,8     162:9 167:2            228:11                192:21 193:12,13\n  201:21 202:5,13       203:9 206:6,14,18    169:11 171:14        calculating 205:4       193:16,19 194:19\n  205:7,13 206:3        208:15 210:17        177:1,3 178:12       calculations 226:6      195:4,6,8,19\n  207:12,20 208:9       211:6 212:18,18      181:22 194:13          226:8                 196:4 210:19\n  217:4 224:10          214:5,7,17 215:12    199:22 200:6,10      calculator 273:7        219:6 229:6 247:7\n  226:22 234:20         216:15,17 219:13     200:14,19,22         calendar 250:11       captives 195:2\n  235:9 236:3,19        222:2,21 223:11      203:2,3,3,4,7,9,10   calendars 307:15      car 306:21\n  241:4 242:13          225:21 226:4,10      203:16,18,19,20      California 234:11     card 254:20 255:5\n  247:13,18 248:7       231:20 246:5         204:3,9,11,17,20     call 168:7 190:22       255:18 259:18\n  249:22 256:1          302:5                205:11,11,12,12        191:1 253:10          260:1,2,5,6\n  258:22 265:11       Bob's 228:8            205:17 206:4,6,11      278:1               cards 260:2 261:1\n  267:13 270:21       bona 276:15            206:19,21 211:21     called 138:12         care 189:14,14\n  273:21 275:2        Bond 207:3             213:3,12,16 214:4      153:22 191:2,9,11     302:9\n  298:22 305:9        bookkeeper 271:17      214:7,12,13,14,16      191:13 223:12       career 179:22\nbelieved 183:18       boss 240:1             215:6,16,19            229:10                180:6,15,22\n  240:8               box 142:6 144:18       216:18,22 217:1,5    calls 156:8 235:16      184:17\nbell 288:14             144:21 159:5         217:7,9,13,16,19     Cam 139:18 142:16     carefully 284:19\nbest 236:17             251:3                217:20 218:3,4,5       143:3 145:13        Carol 194:9\nbet 287:21            boxes 142:18 143:9     220:1,4,5,19,20        149:21 151:7        Carolyn 194:9\nbetter 178:5 179:21     156:14 158:18,19     223:4,7 224:16         163:8,12,16,17,19   case 136:15 137:7\n  211:17 271:17         158:22 159:13        225:17 229:20          163:21 164:6,19       159:19 187:3\nBetty 179:8 220:13      160:1                231:3 235:16,16        167:21 182:20,22      198:16 200:4\n  221:3               Boy 248:14             238:5,8,14 250:9       183:7 197:4,13        206:18 224:14\nbeyond 145:21         break 180:14           251:7,9 252:17         203:2,3,14,16,17      226:6,11 246:19\n  194:1 235:8           221:11 237:10        253:13 255:8,9,10      203:19,22 204:2,4     253:21 265:13\nbig 174:18 211:11     Brian 134:10           255:17 256:7,9         204:14,22 207:8       266:1 312:4\nbiggest 174:13          137:22 191:2         257:7,21 259:4,19      208:5,11 210:22     cash 154:22 254:5\nbill 257:11,12          239:9 240:18         260:4,12,16 261:3      211:15 212:8        casual 173:11\nbillion 225:2,16      bring 170:9            261:7,12 267:11        213:9,11,15,16      category 140:15\n  226:19 227:13,14    broke 204:17           270:3,14 275:17        214:2 217:4,9,12    cause 152:13\nbills 232:12,19       broker 181:22          276:8,15 287:22        217:15,18,20          180:10,12 188:22\n  233:3,8 260:3,6       199:21 200:12        288:2 292:2,10         218:1,3,3,12,21       211:7 214:16\nbin 157:5               201:16,17 206:10     298:14 299:2,19        219:7,8 222:1         268:2 280:10,22\n\n\nEsquire Deposition Services                                             MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                   VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\f        Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB         Document 33-8       Filed 06/21/2007     Page 51 of 74\n\n                                   Marialice Williams\n                                                                                                 Page 4\n\ncaused 177:8         charges 187:13          133:15 136:14,16   compensation            173:5 174:18,21\n  241:11             charging 195:9          137:7 193:20         168:5 190:7           175:2 230:4\nCayman 193:17        charter 182:18          248:12 254:1       compete 168:3           256:10 296:18,21\ncc 196:22            chartered 215:3         310:18             competitive 176:16      306:14\ncell 195:6 232:16    cheating 279:10       com 148:22 196:19    complaint 136:10      conferences 235:17\ncells 195:4          check 251:5 260:3     come 196:9,9           179:20 183:10         255:21 256:4,14\nceremony 175:13        292:8 307:14          213:20 221:15        184:17 185:17       confidentiality\ncertain 143:7        checked 251:3           256:22 270:9         186:17,21 187:3,6     186:1,3,12 197:6\n  152:22 153:4       checks 260:6            272:7 276:20         191:18 196:15         225:21\n  165:3 166:20       children 179:6,10       287:11 292:16        197:2               connection 151:14\n  170:21 178:18      Chris 232:1             297:6              complaints 183:15       155:17 186:2\n  179:4 182:21       Chuck 172:6 173:8     comes 261:13         complete 199:4,10       238:19 240:15\n  185:20,22 202:6      173:9 174:1         coming 276:17          206:7 252:8           242:9 243:2,12\n  206:18 229:13      cities 181:18         comma 292:12           303:11 309:10         244:16 283:8\n  234:18 239:1       city 257:1            commercial 232:16    completely 203:20     considerable 156:7\ncertainly 152:15     civil 132:6 186:18      276:7,9 277:22       269:10 277:7        consistent 181:2\n  178:18 183:1,12      187:17              commission 213:3     complex 195:14          269:10 270:17\n  183:20,22 188:8    claim 188:8 202:21      310:18             complexity 158:1        271:6\n  193:22 196:12        215:17              commissioner         complicated           consistently 168:2\n  205:15 206:12,13   claimed 259:1           194:22 246:20        195:13                234:5 276:17\n  212:19 213:22        297:3                 247:2              computer 143:10       consolidate 158:20\n  222:16 224:8       claiming 275:12       commissions 212:5      144:8 146:17,22     constantly 270:1,3\n  252:9,9 253:9      claims 200:3          commitment             147:4 150:1,5         270:8\n  278:1 300:12         247:12,21 254:17      176:22               156:11 157:2,4      constitute 141:5,16\ncertainty 147:9        255:4               Committee 256:2        158:8 160:19        constituted 187:16\ncertificate 310:1    class 256:21          common 167:20,21       263:4,5 288:10      consult 186:6\n  311:9,13           classes 177:20          168:11             computers 150:8       consultant 235:5\ncertify 310:3        clear 166:13 212:4    communicated           150:15 160:15         269:20 292:10,12\ncetera 168:6 183:2     236:11 288:14         222:1                276:11                300:17\n  183:2,2 193:4,5    clearly 175:16        communication        con 238:14 308:5      consultants 219:5\n  223:4 240:6        clerk 206:16 238:1      196:20 285:3,8     concept 181:15        consulting 300:16\nch 260:5               238:22              communications         192:13 193:10,16      300:18,19 301:2\nchairman 255:22      client 186:6 244:10     141:6,17 245:20      195:3 196:4,5,7       301:10\nchairperson 256:10     306:2,9             communities            197:1 200:7         contact 164:5\nchampion 180:9,12    clients 149:11          181:17               225:18,19 229:6       194:13 196:21\nchange 170:4           196:6 256:5         comp 173:2             238:15                218:15 270:2,4\n  180:20 182:8       client's 306:11       companies 149:9      concepts 180:18       contacted 164:15\n  312:7              close 148:8 159:15      191:20 192:19,21     246:22 256:22         164:16 165:18\nchanged 170:13,14      184:5 246:5           192:22 193:17      concerned 170:19      contained 249:13\nchanges 309:11       closed 201:3,5,7,12     197:13 218:14        170:21 181:17       contempt 168:9\nChapter 136:15         225:3,9,10            277:18               203:8               continuation\n  253:21             collateral 152:11     company 139:20       concerning 285:3        138:20\ncharge 166:22          155:10,13             152:16 190:14      concluded 242:14      continue 182:2\ncharged 188:3        Colorado 273:17         193:1 210:18       conference 171:12       185:19 204:4\n  226:13 227:2       Columbia 132:2          212:15,16,19         171:16 172:1,7        218:5 306:10\n\n\nEsquire Deposition Services                                           MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                 VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 33-8        Filed 06/21/2007         Page 52 of 74\n\n                                   Marialice Williams\n                                                                                                     Page 5\n\n  307:16                236:13 239:16         207:8 208:4,10        307:13               265:15,20 266:7\ncontinued 132:15        249:15 252:12,22      210:22 211:14       cross-section          266:20 267:3,8,15\n  133:7 193:20          268:7,11 283:19       212:7,21,22 213:9     149:10               268:21 269:2,6\n  196:21 311:5          288:13 291:6          215:18 224:2        currently 159:16       272:14,18 280:7\ncontinuing 193:21       292:3,5 296:1       co-op 158:16          custody 157:9          280:12,16,20\n  203:2                 302:7 303:20        CPA 286:2,9           customer 303:12        281:12,20 282:7\ncontractor 237:8        309:9                 303:21              customers 195:9        283:16 284:6\ncontributions         corrections 309:11    Craig 200:15,17         228:21               285:2 286:22\n  188:19                311:10,10             206:5,12,13 207:2   cutting 223:16         287:4 288:21\nconversation          correspondence          221:4               cynical 223:16         289:5,8,12,16,22\n  181:13 184:2          136:8 147:16        crap 189:10 214:10                           290:6,10,15\n  185:1 219:12          196:20                241:3,11 278:20              D             291:17,20 293:16\n  246:8               corresponding         crappy 241:12         d 139:8                294:2 298:11\nconversations           272:10              crash 143:10          daily 231:19           304:5,12 305:1,7\n  216:15,17,20        cost 232:11,17,18       148:12,20 158:8     Dallas 234:10          305:17,21 306:4,8\n  222:2 223:21          233:2               crashed 148:16        damages 205:5          306:11,19 307:2,5\nconvince 169:10       costs 233:11 276:9    crashes 146:17          224:14 226:6,11      307:12,17,20\n  219:1                 278:5                 147:4,5 148:3,6       228:11 265:13,18     311:1,2,7\nconvinced 169:12      could've 189:10         148:22 157:2,4        265:21 266:16       Danny 209:12\n  260:11                228:1,2 243:4         160:19                267:14              data 181:1\nConway 237:21,22        304:9               crazy 279:1,1         Dan 263:5             database 181:1\ncooperate 165:6       counsel 137:18        created 152:13        Dana 274:13           date 137:8 140:1,2\n  166:3,4,6             138:12,15 194:11      153:10,12 156:11      277:13 282:18        148:5 151:11,12\ncooperation 164:20      242:18 244:12         170:7 174:15        Dance 179:8            241:22 242:10,20\ncooperative 169:17      246:2 310:9,12        175:15 180:18         220:13 221:3         243:2 250:7\ncopiers 232:14        counsel's 294:5         181:4 204:9 211:9   Daniel 303:21          281:15 291:9\ncopies 185:20         Countrywide           creating 181:1        Daniels 134:3,8        304:13 309:15\n  263:2 284:18          234:11              credibility 266:1,2     137:20,21 150:22     312:5,21\n  307:11              couple 192:11           266:6,15 267:14       167:15,17 185:18    dated 142:15\ncopy 196:2 210:15       278:14,15 304:19    credit 149:13           186:10 198:6,10      151:20 253:8\n  252:5 262:2 263:2   course 220:15           152:10,15 153:1,1     206:16 208:14,18     311:11\n  263:7 284:15          233:5 268:9           153:18 154:2,8        208:22 209:22       dates 147:4 148:10\n  288:9,11 291:5      court 132:1 136:13      155:12 167:11         210:5,8 221:6,10     219:14 223:21,22\n  311:8,8,13            136:16 137:6,15       184:4,10 192:4,4      221:14,20 235:18     236:14,16 251:14\ncorporate 171:3         139:9,18 147:12       195:6,7,8,19          238:2 239:2,10,12    307:19 308:1,3\n  178:16                150:17 198:1          225:6 227:6           239:13,15,18        day 139:3 168:22\ncorporation 251:17      202:14 225:14         254:20 259:22         240:7,11,20          180:22 209:4\ncorporations            248:6,12 253:18       260:1,2,5,6 261:1     241:14,16 242:2,4    212:3 230:10\n  192:18                254:1 261:16        creditors 136:15        242:8,12 243:7,16    234:4 235:7,7\ncorrect 146:1,2         278:8 281:6 298:1     253:22 254:16,22      243:18,21 244:2,7    260:11 308:5\n  148:10,15 150:13    courtesy 178:4          255:3                 244:9,15,19,21      days 164:4 311:12\n  151:12 157:20       cover 153:7,20        credits 155:3           245:2,7,8,13,20     day-to-day 175:17\n  164:12,13 166:1       198:8 279:11        crew 204:8              258:9 262:9,12,16   DC 132:17 133:12\n  186:22 187:3,4      coverage 153:15,18    cronies 178:14          263:19 264:2,6,12    134:6,12,19 135:4\n  205:17 227:21       co-brokerage          cross-examination       264:16,19 265:4,8    136:16 137:11,17\n\n\nEsquire Deposition Services                                             MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                   VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\f        Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB       Document 33-8        Filed 06/21/2007      Page 53 of 74\n\n                                  Marialice Williams\n                                                                                                 Page 6\n\n 193:8,11,13 194:3    146:5 159:18          310:11 311:8          279:4,16 290:22       240:19\n 194:18,20 246:17     198:4,15              312:1,5               297:18 299:3,3      disposal 175:5\n 247:2 254:1         defending 164:18     depositions 242:14    differently 177:11    disposed 158:12\n 273:20 300:21        164:21 165:7        derived 226:20          183:18              disrespectful\n 301:1 303:10        define 152:9         dervish 214:22        difficult 159:4,14      179:10\n 311:3               defined 187:16       describe 174:11         231:10              dissolved 298:20\nDeadlines 136:15      275:2                 204:21              Diggs 135:9 137:14    distributing 197:10\n 253:22              defines 152:7        described 154:7,15    dime 215:1            District 132:1,2\ndeal 142:17 154:9    definitely 178:17      160:19 207:21       direct 152:4 199:2      133:15 136:14,16\n 158:22 159:16        272:3                 211:16                208:7 262:10          137:6,6 139:18\n 174:18 183:4        delivered 142:6      description 211:17      263:20 265:4          193:19 248:12\n 201:3,5,7,9,11      demonstrate          deserved 167:2          267:17 289:6          254:1 310:18\n 205:10 207:14        203:12              designed 153:19       directed 139:21       diversity 184:14\n 212:6 240:12        department 246:17      204:8               directing 237:19      division 169:13\n 269:22 270:1         246:21 247:2,6      desire 277:3            291:3                 174:5 175:5 184:7\ndealing 178:21        300:21 301:2        destroy 214:1         direction 239:3         192:5,6 303:13\ndeals 155:2 201:1    departure 187:15     detail 157:22           310:7               divorce 241:22\n 206:10 227:10,11     188:4 244:17          287:12              directly 170:5        DMP 273:17 274:5\n 227:21 228:1,12     depend 213:5,5       deterioration 159:9     265:12,13             274:7,9 277:14\n 228:13,16 229:10    Depended 212:15      determination         director 175:4          282:18\nDear 311:7           depending 218:14       307:15                178:13 251:16       doc 142:6\ndeath 242:15         depictions 196:3     determine 294:15        253:14              document 140:20\nDeborah 175:3,4,6    DEPO 311:5             301:9               disabled 257:1          141:1,4,9,12,15\ndebt 162:9           deponent 309:5       determined 153:4      DISB 193:8              141:22 142:3\ndebtor 249:1          311:8,9,10,11,12    develop 256:9         discouraging 217:4      151:19 155:6,6,7\n 251:11,15            311:12,13           developed 170:7         217:9                 155:17 198:12\ndebtor's 251:21      deposed 151:6          177:1 180:18        discover 214:11         207:19 208:4,7,20\ndebts 161:5 254:20    164:1 242:18          200:8 224:17        discovery 208:5         209:6 238:16\nDecember 243:1        243:2                 225:19              discriminated           248:17,20 249:5\ndecided 173:9        deposition 132:15    development             240:8                 250:17,22 252:12\n 177:3 228:19,20      133:7 136:5 137:3     165:10 167:8        discrimination          254:8,10,12\ndecision 186:7        137:9,16 138:21       169:18 183:9          183:11 187:12,19      282:13,17\ndecisions 272:8       139:12 147:14         196:11,22 215:2       188:15 189:21       documentation\ndecline 245:21        150:19 151:9,14     developments          discriminatory          164:17 231:16\n 264:22 265:9         154:10 156:6          192:17                200:20                232:21 233:7\ndeduct 193:4          165:16 175:14       devices 152:12        discuss 186:7           234:2 257:6 268:6\ndeducted 257:12       185:16 186:8        di 195:12               192:12 239:18         288:15 293:14\ndeductible 193:2      198:3 208:9,15      diagrams 195:12         240:17 241:6        documents 140:5,8\ndefamatory 221:22     209:5 238:12          195:17              discussed 184:6         140:14,16,17,19\n 222:3,10,14,16       242:15,17,21        die 308:7               196:6 241:8,8         140:22 141:5,8,11\n 223:17               243:5,10 248:10     died 159:2            discussing 195:2        141:16,21 142:2,6\ndefective 242:7       253:20 261:20       difference 181:16     discussion 216:7,21     142:13,14,16\ndefendants 132:13     281:9 285:7 298:2   different 146:16        268:2                 143:8,18 144:7,10\n 134:15 136:11        306:10 307:18         190:3 235:11        discussions 178:12      144:13,17,18\n 138:13,15 145:18     308:6 310:3,5,8       246:6 275:19,20       193:20,21 220:12      145:2,3,10,11,19\n\n\nEsquire Deposition Services                                           MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                 VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\f        Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 33-8       Filed 06/21/2007     Page 54 of 74\n\n                                  Marialice Williams\n                                                                                                Page 7\n\n 145:21,21 146:3,4             E            149:13 152:16       eventually 189:15    exhibit 139:10,12\n 146:5,8,21 148:17   e 136:1 220:13         153:18 190:6        everybody 178:4        139:16,17 140:12\n 149:3,5,16,19         255:1                195:6,8,19 225:6      248:14 270:13        140:13 147:13,14\n 150:4,5,6,10        earlier 143:11       entertainment         everybody's 279:15     147:18 150:18,19\n 151:13,16,18,19       156:6 186:13         270:16 271:8,21     everyplace 256:18      151:5 152:5\n 152:1 155:9,16,21     241:8 270:20         272:4 273:3 295:7   evidence 210:21        185:15,16 186:16\n 157:5,18 158:5,8    early 157:16           295:10 302:19         276:19               198:2,3 202:13,15\n 159:18 160:6,10       165:22             entire 167:8 204:19   evidently 216:20       202:16,16,20\n 186:4 205:9         earnest 158:4          213:4 287:22        ex 285:6               204:21 207:21\n 225:13 231:2        easier 144:6         entitled 226:15       exact 165:15           208:1,10,12\ndog-eat-dog 170:2    easy 180:2             265:19                184:18 211:13        209:10,11 211:16\ndoing 157:6 171:19   Edward 135:9         entity 299:8,10         219:14 234:19,20     211:18,20 221:9\n 178:1,2 182:17        137:14             entry 272:9             236:16 237:4         248:6,10 253:19\n 183:6 199:21        EEO 179:17,20        envelopes 234:22        242:10 289:17,17     253:20 259:8\n 200:6,14 203:19     effect 184:19        environment 170:2     exactly 165:3          261:16,20 280:1\n 206:20 213:12,16    effectively 168:3      171:3                 170:15 207:13        281:6,9 298:1,2,7\n 214:5,7,13,14       eight 152:6          environmental           211:20 225:5       exhibits 136:5\n 215:1,3,6,14        either 150:7 161:1     154:20 155:11         253:9 287:14         209:4 307:1,11\n 216:18,22 217:5,9     180:14 193:17      equipment 232:10      examination 136:2    exist 179:5\n 217:20 220:19         195:3 215:14       equity 154:21           136:3 138:12,15    existed 224:3\n 235:5 253:10          250:7,19 299:1       228:2               examine 285:7          299:16\n 257:2 282:4         eking 162:6          errata 309:12         examined 138:14      expense 233:15\ndollars 225:16       embarrassment          311:9,10,13 312:3     309:8                257:10,13 276:19\n 230:15                177:6              escaping 193:15       example 177:19       expenses 193:1,4\ndownhill 172:4       employed 141:18      Esq 134:8,10,21,22      179:4 223:12         229:13 231:1,1\nDowning 237:21,22      236:14 310:10,13     135:6 311:1         exchange 152:18        233:12 234:3\n 263:6               employee 192:15      Esquire 137:16        exchanging 152:19      255:8,11,14\nDPM 283:8              301:19 310:12        312:1               excited 175:6          256:11 257:7\ndragging 277:5       employees 177:21     essentially 213:12    exclude 204:9          259:14,19,20\ndried 158:11         employer 170:17      estate 153:2 251:8    excluded 178:10,12     260:16,17 261:3,3\ndue 158:9              170:17,18 171:4      251:10                203:21               261:7,10,12\ndues 296:11            273:20             estimate 236:17       excluding 199:15       268:14 270:16\nduly 310:5           employers 168:21       237:5               exclusive 212:16       271:8,21 273:3\nduplicates 150:1     employment           et 132:11 134:16      exclusively 255:10     275:12 276:2\nDUS 154:19 155:4       141:20 187:10,15     137:5 138:16        exclusivity 197:6      294:8,16,22 295:7\n 205:8,11,12,17        250:8                168:6 183:2,2,2     excuse 151:7           295:10 296:9,16\n 220:14,16,20        enabled 168:2          193:4,5 198:17        152:18 206:15        296:19 302:11,12\n 225:4 227:5,9,11    enables 152:16         223:4 240:6 311:4     209:12 216:2         302:19\n 227:21 228:1,3,4    enabling 176:14        312:4                 306:1              experience 200:21\n 228:12,13,16        enclosed 311:8,9,9   Europe 270:7          execution 270:10     expert 195:2\n 229:7 246:6         ended 308:5          Evelyn 134:21         executive 251:16     expire 202:2 224:8\ndusk 229:7           enhanced 189:5         137:12 138:2          253:15             expired 224:3,5\nDUS-related            227:6                287:1 288:22        exercise 189:8       expires 310:18\n 154:14              enhancement            289:9               exhaustive 142:22    explain 152:14\nD.C 311:14 312:2                          event 189:9 212:6       143:2 156:18,20      182:10 224:13\n\n\nEsquire Deposition Services                                          MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB       Document 33-8       Filed 06/21/2007       Page 55 of 74\n\n                                  Marialice Williams\n                                                                                                  Page 8\n\n  252:3 274:22      Fam 218:21              204:20 205:9,14        226:20 228:14         207:9 213:11,15\n  276:1 292:9       fame 188:8              205:16 206:5,12        300:16,18,19          213:17 217:5,16\nexplained 193:10    familiar 173:10         206:19 207:19          301:3,10              217:18,21 218:2,3\n  193:11 212:21       218:19                211:7 212:7,22      felt 167:20,22           218:3,13 219:7,8\n  283:20 287:5,15   family 155:12,13        213:8,10,15 214:2      168:12 170:19         242:17 248:11\n  297:5               157:8 173:10          214:3 215:2,13,18      177:7 179:2           249:13 266:15,19\nexplaining 149:12   Fan 228:15              216:18,21 217:4,6      182:17              financially 310:13\nexpress 172:15,21   Fannie 135:2 138:3      217:8,12,15,15,18   fide 276:15            find 143:14 159:5\n  255:5,17,18 257:8   138:6,9 140:18        218:2,18,20         field 213:20             207:4,4 231:9,10\n  257:11,12 259:13    141:7,19,20 142:6     219:21 220:2,3,17   figures 266:16           288:4\n  260:7               146:8,19 148:18       223:10 224:16       file 179:20 183:10     fine 170:6 279:13\nexpressed 179:6       149:5 151:7           225:1,8,11,20          183:15 184:16         288:13 308:3\nextend 189:7          152:17,20 153:12      226:1 227:14           227:16 233:21,22    finish 144:4 245:5\nextent 142:13         153:16 154:8,18       228:15,22 230:18       248:2 260:14          280:21 281:1,15\n  190:4 212:1         156:15 158:2,5        231:21 234:4           262:6 271:13          281:16 304:13\n  219:21 225:7        160:14 161:6,19       238:9,14 239:16        290:22 302:17         305:17 307:6\n  227:4 240:17        162:6 164:5,7,18      240:12,16 242:9        305:19              firm 137:10 164:12\nextra 256:8           164:18,21 165:7,8     243:12,15 244:16    filed 161:4,21           171:6,7,10 173:2\nextraordinary         165:12,13,14          245:9,21 247:15        162:1,3,4,7 163:9     276:9 281:8\n  231:1               166:2,4,7,10,19       256:4,9,12,13,13       186:21 225:14       first 153:10 163:12\nextremely 193:7       168:3,17 169:3,12     256:18 257:8           250:5,17,18           163:16 169:15\neye 133:11 134:18     169:14,18 170:8       259:15 260:5,12        254:21 258:13         181:1,14 188:2\n  275:22              170:10 171:14,19      268:2 270:12           262:4,22 263:10       201:3,15,18\ne-mail 136:7          172:9,13 173:6        279:11 287:21          263:12,16 265:20      220:10 221:1\n  147:14,19 148:1,4   174:4,9,18 175:14     288:2 293:11,18        266:12,13,14,16       230:2 235:12\n  220:13 221:2        176:7,8,12,14,18      299:20,21 302:4,9      272:6,12 276:18       236:9 242:4,8\ne-mails 146:14,19     176:21 177:11       far 160:13 192:18        277:9,14 283:11       243:6,7,11 244:13\n  149:8 156:7,21      179:2,14 180:3,12     194:1 243:13           283:12,14 284:1,3     244:15 251:19,20\n  160:13,18 196:22    180:13,17,20          246:1 271:15           284:12,14,21,22       286:10\n                      181:10,11,12,20     fast 169:19 226:17       285:10,16 286:15    five 164:3,3 205:22\n          F           182:3,5,15 183:11   father 231:11            288:9 289:3           213:19 227:17\nF 254:16 255:2,3      183:17,21 184:1     fax 232:13 276:12        290:18,18,20          276:7 278:16\nfact 151:9 154:3      184:12 186:19       feasibility 194:18       291:8,13 303:7        282:2 289:9\n  158:10 192:21       187:10,15,20        feasible 192:18       files 301:13             290:20 296:19\n  220:18 231:18       188:4,20,22 190:2   February 157:17       filing 275:16            299:3\n  264:15 288:13       190:17 191:5,22     Federal 132:10        filled 234:22          fix 286:10\nfailing 197:5         192:2,3,5,14,19       134:15 137:4        final 186:6 209:20     flat 276:13 277:17\nfair 142:12 165:9     193:3,11,22           138:15                211:10 242:15          277:20,21\n  215:19 222:8        194:10,18 195:3,6   fee 224:21,22           252:8                flow 254:5\n  250:16 280:11       196:9,12,17,22        226:12 227:2        finalized 283:22       FNMA 311:4 312:4\n  282:2 307:17        197:2,3,9 198:17    feel 138:21 139:3     finance 183:8          FNMA.MBW.00...\nfairly 225:22         199:14 200:6,9,18     168:14 180:11       financial 136:13         136:6 139:13\nfaith 186:11          201:2,3,6,8,10,20     228:16                139:19 151:7         FNMA.MBW.00...\nfalse 221:22 222:10   202:8 203:1,6,10    feelings 176:19         164:19 182:20,22       136:9 150:20\n  222:13,15 223:17    203:12,22 204:5,6   fees 224:18,20          203:2,4 206:18       follow 244:21\n\n\nEsquire Deposition Services                                           MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                 VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\f        Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 33-8      Filed 06/21/2007      Page 56 of 74\n\n                                  Marialice Williams\n                                                                                                Page 9\n\n  245:6,15 265:2     friend 188:11,12,12   176:5,22 178:5        197:11 204:11,12    grounds 262:11\n  289:21 294:5         193:6 219:7         179:8 211:2 214:4     214:4 221:4         Group 273:17\nfollowing 141:19     front 301:16          246:11 258:2          241:16 243:19         274:5,7,9 277:14\n  192:14             frustration 215:9     260:19 265:9,9        244:21 245:3,6,11     282:18 283:8\nfollows 138:14       full 138:22 139:4     275:11 278:11         245:15,16 247:14    Groves 209:12\nfond 168:18          fully 200:5,8         279:16,17 280:11      248:5 255:20        grueling 164:4\nForbes 270:7,7         246:21              285:6 287:9,19,21     256:3 259:22        Grundeman\nforegoing 249:13     full-time 275:19      293:2 306:17          260:11,11,19          134:22 138:5,5\n  309:8 310:3,4      functions 218:18    given 143:14 178:4      261:15 262:9          147:19 306:22\nforfeit 268:4        fundamentally         180:13,21 197:9       263:19 264:22         307:3\nforgot 192:7           215:17              206:11,15 211:4       265:2,8 266:16      guess 151:16\n  220:21             funds 162:6 197:10    234:19 265:15         271:1 278:9,13,14     172:19 207:3\nform 136:17,19,20      237:8               284:18 304:7          278:22 279:3,16       211:9 225:22\n  152:15 192:19      further 196:19        309:10 310:8          281:1,13,21 283:3     253:10 279:6\n  225:17 261:20        294:3 310:11      giving 185:22           284:20 287:15         303:16\n  281:9 284:16                             190:10,12 203:16      288:6 294:5         gun 240:3\n  298:2 301:18                G            211:6 214:19          295:19 296:7\n  303:5              gain 166:17           281:1 302:8           304:1,8,8 305:15             H\nformed 299:19        game 219:15,16      go 157:22 172:4         306:18              half 278:16 282:3\nformer 247:2         gamut 154:21          173:1,6 174:20,22   Goldfrank 147:20       307:13\n  303:13             garage 143:9          175:8,13 177:20     Goldman 270:6         Hamilton 172:6,15\nforms 161:12           158:21 159:4,9,10   182:13 185:6        golf 178:7             173:4,14 174:1\nforth 159:1 179:7    gee 175:10 287:20     197:14 207:3        good 137:1 138:18     Hampton 246:20\n  195:17 235:6       gen 273:10            209:15 210:2          138:19 167:9        hand 139:8 150:16\n  302:2              general 139:19        234:8,9,10 237:10     168:16 172:20        253:17\nfortunate 154:8        241:7               258:1 260:21          180:16 186:11       handed 181:9\n  180:19             generally 149:22      266:21 272:15         188:6 291:20         185:20 186:11\nforward 168:22         150:2 152:21        278:9,12,20,21      gosh 148:21            195:10 208:11,20\nfound 144:17 145:2     160:14 167:22       279:12,13 280:17    gotten 173:7          handing 147:11\n  145:15,20,22         224:17 273:11       280:18,19 283:4       279:18               185:14 198:1\n  176:1 231:12       generic 272:20        285:20 290:6,15     Grace 138:3,6          214:10\n  256:15             GenRe 197:5           292:8 300:7           186:19 194:7        hands 142:21\nfour 280:12,17,19    GenStar 151:8         303:22                221:3               happen 175:1,3\n  280:19,21 281:14     192:10 197:5      God 291:21            grand 235:13          happened 159:8\n  281:14 287:6,13    gentleman 193:14    goes 218:19 258:12    gravitated 179:16      183:14 196:16\n  289:9,9 291:14     Gerard 164:10         265:22 266:5        great 142:17 154:9     208:15\n  299:3 304:7        getting 167:2         267:14                157:22 158:22       happy 170:8\nframe 143:15 146:1     174:20 175:9      going 155:3 161:19      159:16 168:9         181:14\n  165:17 236:1,5       180:16 188:21       166:21,22 170:18      183:4 205:10        harassment 288:17\nframes 157:20          189:6 203:10        174:15 175:1,7        269:22,22           hard 143:7 196:2\nfrequently 179:17      214:17 217:1        176:19,21 178:11    Griffith 135:6        Harley 134:3,8\n  184:2                231:16 260:4        179:21,22 181:16      138:8,9              137:20 239:10\nfreshman 171:18      Gigi 231:11           182:21 183:1,3      gross 232:18 250:9     311:1,2\nFriday 143:6         Gins 249:10 253:4     186:5 189:9           301:21,22           Harrison 246:4,9\n  238:11 285:7       give 138:22 139:4     193:13 196:11       ground 262:12         Hartsfield 193:7\n\n\nEsquire Deposition Services                                          MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\f        Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 33-8        Filed 06/21/2007      Page 57 of 74\n\n                                  Marialice Williams\n                                                                                                 Page 10\n\n  194:7,16 209:13    hourly 278:19           155:7 186:15        Incorporated            170:20 171:1\n  230:3 231:18       hours 278:13,14,15      208:13 209:5          139:19                181:2 199:5,10\n  235:14 236:12       278:16 282:2           211:13 247:14       incorrect 252:15        206:15 221:22\n  237:6 269:15        304:2,7,9,16,18        251:7 252:1,17        285:19,22 286:1,4     226:7,9 246:18\nHarvard 171:18        304:19 305:10,14       268:14 270:15         286:5,8,12 292:6      247:12,19,21\nHarvey 193:6         house 158:17,21         294:8,22 295:6        292:7 300:6           250:13 252:20\n  194:6,16 209:11    housing 154:19          296:11 298:14       incurred 256:12         258:2,4 261:13\n  209:13 230:2        155:1 171:15           300:10                271:20,22 272:3       273:6 275:11\n  231:18 235:14       182:16 215:4        identifying 227:20       273:2                 283:7 292:19\n  236:12 269:15       228:3 256:2,16,19      259:14 292:2        independent             293:2 303:12\nhazard 155:12         257:1,3             II 132:14 137:2          153:19 284:4        initially 173:15\nhead 303:13          Hoyes 181:13            216:9                 299:7,10              197:3,4 220:12\nheadquarters         Huebscher 138:4,7    illness 257:4          independently         inner 181:18 257:1\n  232:3,5,6,7         186:20 194:7        imagine 215:9            271:15 273:1,9      input 154:9\nHealth 300:21         221:3                  282:18              indicate 237:3        inquiring 266:12\n  301:2              huge 158:18,21       immaterial 264:11        249:11 257:7        inquiry 266:19\nheard 163:16 213:4    181:16 189:9           267:10                292:13              ins 200:18\nhearing 290:9        huh 221:16 269:1     immediately            indicated 216:19      instance 153:13\nheld 133:8 216:7     human 177:5             250:10              indicating 195:17       168:1 222:18\nhelp 157:7 175:16    hundred 225:15       impact 180:20            221:3 252:14        instances 211:19\n  180:6              hurt 215:15          impart 170:22          indications 206:19      218:22 224:19\nhereto 310:13        hurtful 174:14       implementing             206:21              instructed 194:12\nhigh 224:20          hurting 229:3           194:20 247:5        indispensable         instruction 244:22\nhigher 180:5         husband 284:22       important 175:1          197:9                 245:7 289:15,20\n  276:10              286:15 290:19          218:21 287:18       individual 136:20       294:6\nhigh-level 192:10                         impression 203:17        175:19 195:5        instructions 189:13\n  192:12                       I          inaccurate 289:3         219:9 233:19        insurance 139:20\nhire 275:18,19       ID 273:20            inadvertently            235:10 251:12,21      149:9 151:8\n  281:7 286:9        idea 196:9 227:3        305:5                 274:5 282:21          152:11,12 153:19\n  297:15               306:18             include 197:2            283:2 298:3           154:2,20,22\nhired 184:21         identical 295:11        230:12                303:17                155:10,12,13,14\n  200:11 247:4       identification       included 203:11        individually 290:21     155:14 158:10\n  303:9,12             139:14 147:17      including 144:2          296:5                 181:22 191:19\nhistory 177:8          150:21 185:17         154:18 155:4,11     individuals 192:12      192:8,13,19,21,22\nHobbs 242:6            198:5 248:13          181:1 225:9 276:8     194:6 195:5           193:1,8,9,16,19\nhold 306:20            251:13 254:2       income 136:17,19         235:11 247:9,11       194:22 195:19\nholding 254:16         261:22 281:11         136:21 250:8          256:20 257:1          196:4 199:15,21\n  255:1,4              298:4                 261:21 278:18         260:8 275:4,14        200:7,9 201:1,18\nhome 163:3,5 179:5   identified 144:2        281:10 292:14,16      297:9,15,18           202:7 205:13\nhonest 166:18          229:13 247:10         292:20 293:7,13       302:17                207:14 210:18\n  282:3                274:17 292:9          293:20,22 298:3     industry 299:18         212:15,16,18\nhonestly 191:13        297:16,19 302:13      299:12,13,13,14     inexpensive 234:12      213:2,6 218:13\n  219:20               302:18                299:17 300:1,11     information 143:6       219:2,4,6 224:19\nhonor 197:6          identify 137:19         300:13 301:9          147:2 155:19          225:8,18 226:13\nhour 307:13,13         139:16 151:5       inconsistent 271:3       164:1 168:19          227:7 246:17\n\n\nEsquire Deposition Services                                            MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                  VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB         Document 33-8       Filed 06/21/2007   Page 58 of 74\n\n                                   Marialice Williams\n                                                                                            Page 11\n\n  247:3,6,8 269:20    involvement             303:2,3 312:6    299:22 304:11        231:8,9 232:2\n  270:2,9               163:19,21 165:10    John 132:8       kept 158:5 160:15      243:13,17 245:14\ninsurance/reinsu...   involves 243:21       Johns 182:8 231:20 209:15 233:18        248:3 249:19,21\n  210:19              involving 242:7       Johnson 184:14   kind 170:2,10          252:2,4,6 253:3,3\ninsurer 226:13        irrelevant 264:13       185:2            174:16 181:7         254:6,11 256:14\ninsurers 219:1          264:14 267:10       Johnson's 184:15   182:15 188:11        258:10 266:8\ninsuring 154:3          277:7                 184:18 188:12,12 189:5 212:20         267:5,8 271:16\nintelligent 180:8     irritating 286:18     joint 162:12 290:19213:21 214:9         276:6,9,18 277:20\nintend 264:3 300:7    IRS 258:1,13 262:4    jointly 169:14     216:21 227:6         279:20 282:14,16\ninterested 215:6        277:15 283:11         269:21           275:16 276:8         283:4,5 286:1,3,5\n  310:14                288:12 303:7        joke 204:5       kinds 159:8            286:8,12,19\ninteresting 176:1     IRS's 277:15          Jonathan 135:6   knew 163:12            292:18,20,22\n  179:6               Islands 193:18,18       138:8            166:19,19,21         293:12,19,22\ninterfere 213:8       issue 165:15 169:14   Jones 164:19,21    170:16,17,17         294:12 295:4,14\ninterfered 203:13       179:3 182:2           165:7,9 166:20   173:10 176:8         295:14,15,16\n  213:10                276:14 288:16         167:1,5 168:7    179:4,4 183:4        296:2,14,16,18,21\ninterference            290:9                 175:13 193:15    200:12,15,17,19      297:2,21 299:19\n  202:21              issued 139:17           197:1 203:7 206:7229:1 246:7 252:9    299:20,21 300:9\ninternal 183:10         143:2,19 145:12       206:14 210:17    252:9 286:10         305:14,18 306:20\n  192:20 277:9          149:15 153:16,17      215:12 216:15,17\n                                                             knockoffs 225:18      knowing 173:6\n  301:12 303:14         165:20 181:14         219:13,22 220:8,9\n                                                             know 139:5 142:5       177:7 225:5\ninternational 195:2     225:4                 222:3,13,22      152:13 157:11        227:18\n  199:21 200:12       issues 176:19           223:11 226:10    162:20 166:14,14    knowledge 167:13\ninterrog 199:6          177:22 179:17         231:20 246:5     166:16 167:10,11     167:20,21 168:11\ninterrogation           187:12                302:5            170:2,6,20 172:3     178:11 197:12\n  277:6               iterations 207:18     Jones's 165:10     173:11 178:6,9       200:21 218:15,16\ninterrogatories       It'd 213:4              208:15 226:5     181:4,7 182:1        218:17 253:9\n  136:12 198:4,16     It'll 144:5 221:12    Jones/Cam 206:18   183:3 188:7 189:3   known 165:12,13\n  247:16 271:5                              judge 132:8 197:8  189:3,5,9,12         166:2 171:17\ninterrogatory                  J            Julia 165:2 242:15 194:8 195:12         184:20 218:16\n  198:18,21 199:3,4   Jane 246:4            July 310:19        196:8 199:18        knows 206:12\n  199:7,9 202:11,18   January 136:8         June 157:16 187:9  200:16,17 202:22     222:6,7\n  205:3,22 207:6        147:15 151:20         190:18,19,21     203:5 205:9,14,19   Kyra 134:22 138:5\n  216:1,14 221:19       155:18 157:17         191:5 306:4      206:4,6,7,8,14       147:19\n  224:1,12 229:12       209:14              jurisdiction 194:19207:1,1,2 209:14\n  229:14 237:20       Jay 134:3,8 311:1,2                      213:15,21 214:6,6            L\n  247:10 270:19       JD 286:2                    K            214:10,21 215:14    L 134:21 299:1\n  297:20              Jesus 233:21        Kate 194:7,16,21     216:20 219:18       language 210:13\nintroduced 184:20     Jim 188:11,12        195:1 219:10        220:3 222:5,8,10    laptop 148:15,17\n  184:21              Joanne 132:20        247:4               222:11,18 223:1,3     148:20 149:6,17\nintrusive 264:11        133:14 137:15     keep 148:17 159:14   223:6,8,13,15         149:21 150:2,4\ninvite 178:6            310:2,16 311:16    159:15 167:1        224:2,4,7 225:8     large 149:10\ninvoke 244:10         job 132:21 170:22    233:16,20 260:10    227:4,5,11 228:6      234:21\ninvolved 177:20         176:18 271:16      263:2 275:21,22     228:13,14,19,21     largely 150:3\n  179:19                277:15 282:6,9     282:2 287:16        229:3 230:16,21       194:19 255:17\n\n\nEsquire Deposition Services                                          MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB         Document 33-8        Filed 06/21/2007     Page 59 of 74\n\n                                   Marialice Williams\n                                                                                                  Page 12\n\n  260:9 271:1           137:22 138:1        Levin 169:10          lived 230:17          looked 253:6\nlarger 150:1            191:2,3,7 238:2        184:21             livelihood 280:10     looking 149:13\nLarry 194:21 247:1      239:9 240:18        Levy 184:9              280:13                200:13 218:6\nlate 210:16 219:15      242:12 244:8        liar 301:14           Liverani 132:20         225:13 226:3,4,16\n  219:16                264:10,14,20        license 201:19,22       133:14 137:15         252:22 253:6\nlaw 134:3 137:10        265:6 266:4,11,22      202:2                310:2,16 311:16       267:9 268:13\n  137:12 166:5          298:8,12 305:11     licensed 238:17       living 158:14,16        282:11 291:4\n  171:6,7,10 193:12     305:15 307:4,10        303:9                159:12 162:6          292:18 293:9,13\n  193:19 206:16         308:2               lied 215:12,13          231:1 278:17,19       294:14 296:6,10\n  238:1,1 276:8       Lederer's 206:16      life 142:20 213:4       288:5 304:10          302:11\n  279:1 281:8 311:2     239:2                  277:7              LLC 232:7,8           looks 267:10\nLawch 138:3,6         left 158:2 162:11     lifetime 153:8,21       273:17 292:3,7      Lord 192:7\n  166:22 167:3          165:14,15 172:1        154:5                298:16 299:1        lose 147:2 159:22\n  171:9 172:16,22       174:4 176:20        likewise 219:3          300:4                 280:10\n  173:3,13 174:3,21     181:12 182:3,18     limit 168:5           LLP 133:10 134:17     loss 153:14,18\n  175:18 176:3,5        185:4,5 187:9       limited 155:11        loan 230:19             157:4 287:20\n  177:2,18 179:14       190:17 191:22       line 268:14 312:7     loans 152:17,19,21    losses 153:7,20\n  182:11 183:18         192:2,3 200:8       lines 232:12,16         153:6,7,20 154:2      154:3,6,20 224:15\n  186:19 189:13,17      201:4,5,12,20          276:7                154:4 215:4           267:20 268:3,4\n  189:22 199:20         202:8 213:20        list 247:9 251:12     locate 156:19 208:3   lost 211:3 245:12\n  200:5 222:6           228:1 230:21           296:19 299:5,8       210:15                249:16 279:9\n  223:14 239:19         234:4 235:7            300:3,5            located 137:16        lot 157:6 159:21\n  240:8 241:9           304:18              listed 194:6 250:13     193:17 212:18         170:8 175:16\nLawch's 170:12        legal 239:2 242:5        251:7 252:17         252:21                179:15,16 196:10\n  174:7 176:9           243:21 268:15          259:18 260:9       long 162:2 166:21       205:15 222:20\nlaws 187:17             269:13,17 292:10       261:12 292:22        169:18 181:12         235:5 255:21\nlawsuit 262:13          292:11 294:9,16        300:5                182:11 183:16         256:6\n  263:21 267:12         302:12              listen 284:19           184:20 229:1        lots 223:17\nlawyer 172:20         legitimate 289:20        286:16               235:1 249:17        Lou 181:13\n  190:22 278:20       Lend 234:10           lists 260:15            255:16 277:20       loved 176:18\nLawyers 305:21        lenders 246:6         litany 179:9 218:1      306:17              Lucas 274:13\nLawyer-client         length 158:6          litigation 142:16     longer 139:4            277:13 282:18\n  244:2               letter 202:17 203:1      143:3 145:13         161:16,17 224:9     lunch 220:18\nlead 167:12 204:12      203:6 204:13           149:21 163:8,12      241:17 270:3        luncheon 197:19\nlearned 219:20          213:14,21 215:11       163:16,17,18,20      304:1               luncheons 258:17\nlease 229:16,17,19    let's 148:21 163:13      163:22 164:6       look 150:10 155:19    lured 183:1\n  231:6,7 234:10        172:10 197:14          186:2 197:4          187:5 204:18        lying 211:8 279:10\nleave 181:11            198:8 209:17           238:20 239:7,8       205:2,21 207:5\n  182:19 189:4          222:18 224:6           243:3 257:18         215:22 216:13              M\n  227:22                226:16 227:15       little 144:5 169:17     233:1 234:14        M 298:15\nleaving 175:11          241:6 266:21           178:14 189:10        252:7 253:2         Mac 192:7,9,10\n  182:5,5 187:20        290:4                  190:12 213:19        269:21 273:16        234:9\n  241:3               level 152:22 180:5       288:1                277:10,16 289:10    machine 276:12\nled 217:3 305:9         184:4               live 161:16 176:22      295:15 296:1        machines 232:14\nLederer 134:10        levels 180:3             230:16               297:11              MADAM 210:3\n\n\nEsquire Deposition Services                                             MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                   VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\f        Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 33-8       Filed 06/21/2007    Page 60 of 74\n\n                                  Marialice Williams\n                                                                                             Page 13\n\n 248:8 261:18         216:18,21 217:4,6   Marialice 132:4,16    149:8 195:10        168:20 189:8\n 280:2 281:3          217:8,15,18 218:2    133:7 134:2 136:4   matter 137:4         204:3 212:7 269:3\nMae 135:2 138:3,6     218:18,20 219:21     137:3,4 138:11       139:18 145:19      meet 166:8,10\n 138:9 140:18         220:2,3,17 223:10    186:18 198:16        146:6 151:8         168:21 210:17\n 141:7,19,20 142:6    224:16 225:1,8,11    204:12 216:5,10      176:17 180:7        220:18 234:9,10\n 146:8,19 148:18      225:21 226:1         232:5 235:18         183:3 185:19        234:11 256:4\n 149:5 151:7          227:14 228:15,22     272:14 282:7         242:7,17           meeting 136:15\n 152:18,20 153:13     230:18 231:21        284:7 289:5 294:2   mattered 180:8       173:4,14 191:19\n 153:16 154:8,18      234:4 238:9,14       305:1 306:15        matters 241:7        192:14 194:2,5,14\n 156:15 158:2,5       239:16 240:12,16     307:4 309:7,15      ma'am 264:19         194:15 195:11\n 160:14 161:7,19      242:9 243:12,15      311:5 312:5          304:21              196:2,16 229:5\n 162:6 164:5,18       244:16 245:10,21    mark 147:12          MBS 199:22 225:2     253:21\n 165:8,12,13,14       247:15 256:5,9,12    150:17 180:17        225:4              meetings 192:1,3\n 166:2,4,7,10,20      256:13,14,18         198:2 248:6         McGlinchey           218:22 238:13\n 168:3,17 169:3,12    257:8 259:15         253:18 261:16        164:11             members 192:5\n 169:14,18 170:8      260:5,12 268:2       278:8 281:6 298:1   McKinnon 175:3      memorize 296:8\n 170:10 171:14,20     270:12 279:11       marked 139:9,13      MCRI 152:7,9,13     memory 290:12\n 172:9,13 173:6       287:21 288:3         142:11 147:16        152:14 154:15,17   mental 257:4\n 174:4,9,18 175:14    293:11,18 299:20     150:20 185:14,17     155:11 165:11       300:21 301:2\n 176:7,8,12,14,18     299:21 300:14        198:5 202:13         174:15 175:9       mention 176:3\n 176:21 177:11        302:4,9              208:12 248:13        181:15,22 200:10   mentioned 168:21\n 179:2,14 180:4,12   Mae's 164:7,18,21     254:2 261:22         200:19 201:9        170:15 184:8\n 180:13,17,21         165:7 181:20         279:22 281:11        206:20 210:19       238:11,15\n 181:10,11,12        mailed 209:11         298:4 307:11         228:1,1            mentor 180:4,9,11\n 182:3,5,15 183:11   main 150:5           market 155:2         meal 271:8 272:3    merged 192:9\n 183:17,21 184:1     major 192:8           158:11 176:15        295:7,10           merger 192:7\n 184:12 186:19        210:18               206:9 218:17        meals 270:15        Merit 310:17\n 187:10,15,20        majority 247:17       256:20               271:20 273:3       messes 248:15\n 188:4,20,22 190:2    301:7               marketing 174:17      302:19             met 172:2 173:8,9\n 190:17 191:5,22     making 275:18         235:6 269:20        mean 176:11 178:9    190:21 242:11\n 192:2,3,5,14,19      288:5                270:1                181:3 189:10        246:22 247:3\n 193:3,11,22         man 171:14 200:16    marketplace           218:5 220:20       meter 237:10\n 194:10,18 195:3,6    200:21               153:11 168:4         230:22 231:1       Metropolitan\n 196:9,12,18,22      managed 170:4         182:14 183:5         232:1 233:13        201:5\n 197:2,3,9 198:17    manager 177:19        228:17               255:13 256:16      Mexico 242:6\n 199:14 200:6,9,18    178:22              markets 178:13        257:22,22 272:18   Michael 239:9\n 201:2,4,6,8,10,20   managing 251:16       182:16               277:4 280:11       middle 241:10\n 202:8 203:1,6,10     253:15              marr 238:3            281:13 287:4,18     256:21\n 203:13,22 204:5,6   manila 234:21        married 238:3,3       288:8 289:22       might've 193:2\n 204:20 205:9,14     manner 165:9          239:13,15 241:18     293:17 299:9        299:17\n 205:16 206:5,12      166:20 173:21       Marsh 192:7,9,10      305:4              million 181:6 205:5\n 206:19 207:19        174:8,12             234:9               meaning 154:1        205:7,15 225:15\n 211:7 212:7,22      March 138:21         mat 142:18           means 274:22         226:20 227:8,17\n 213:8,10,16 214:2    151:10 157:17       materials 142:18      288:4               228:9 268:4\n 214:3 215:2,13,18   Maria 184:14          144:21 145:17       meant 162:10        mind 279:9\n\n\nEsquire Deposition Services                                         MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                               VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\f        Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB       Document 33-8      Filed 06/21/2007     Page 61 of 74\n\n                                  Marialice Williams\n                                                                                             Page 14\n\nmind's 182:12         268:21,21 269:3,9  193:15 194:9          234:8 242:6          237:20 238:5\nmine 184:16           270:18             248:15 270:6          246:20               247:11 273:21,22\nminus 226:14         morning 137:1       273:13 286:2        Newman 194:8,12        274:1 301:17\nminute 197:15         138:18,19 284:17   297:8 298:14        newsletters 149:11     303:1,3\nminutes 185:7         288:10             299:2 303:17,21     nicer 189:11          numbers 158:18\n 235:21 280:19,20    mortgage 132:11     312:4,5             Nieds 188:1,5,16       234:20 251:13\nMirel 194:21 247:1    134:15 137:5      names 251:12           189:12 190:16        288:16 296:1,3\nmiserable 240:2       138:16 152:17,19   275:6                 241:11               302:1\nMississippi 225:14    153:6 154:2,4     nasty 241:12         nin 147:7\n 239:1                155:10 201:15,17  National 132:10      nine 216:1,14                 O\nmisspoke 244:13       222:18,19 231:22   134:15 137:5        nonsense 288:7        O 136:1\nmistaken 209:21       231:22 234:11      138:16 139:20       Non-Fannie 300:14     obfuscation 204:10\n 211:5                256:3 299:18      nature 240:19        non-priority          object 241:17\nMitigation 292:3     mortgages 153:15    251:13 269:17         254:17 255:4        objection 262:15\n 300:3                181:3,18          nearly 279:9         non-responsive          264:5,9,18 267:2\nMm 167:16            mortgage-backed    necessarily 156:12     274:3               obligation 215:3\nmm-hmm 147:21         152:19 153:8,21    212:14 229:6        Northwest 134:4       obviously 214:2,18\n 168:13 187:7        mother 159:2       necessary 270:11       134:11,18 135:3       232:2 279:20\n 194:4 200:2 207:7    162:12             275:21                137:11,17 144:19      290:8 302:1\n 220:7 237:11        mother's 159:7     need 186:5 221:10      273:18 311:2,14     occasionally 230:1\n 244:19 248:9,21     motivation 213:22   270:10 272:15         312:1               occasioned 154:6,6\n 249:2 250:12,15     Mountain 270:5      281:21 282:5        notary 133:15         occurred 159:10\n 251:1,4,21 252:13   Mountains 270:6     306:22                138:13 310:1,17       174:3 192:17\n 253:1 254:18        move 160:21        needed 219:4         note 311:10             194:15\n 295:3 302:14         161:20,21 162:14   228:17 285:19       notes 228:8           offense 176:2\nmod 190:8             274:2             negative 172:16,21   notice 133:14         offer 166:15 188:20\nmodel 154:8          moved 158:12,16     222:3,20 254:5        136:15 143:4,4        189:18,21 190:3\nmodest 190:8,8,9      158:20 159:3,11   negotiated 187:10      253:20                191:12 265:18\nmodification 190:6    161:15 162:1,3,4   191:5 228:4 229:9   notion 259:11,12      offered 190:11\nmodified 190:4        236:8,9           negotiating 243:14     259:13              offering 188:18\nmoment 182:12        moving 159:12      negotiations         number 137:2          office 143:10\n 262:16 264:20       multifamily 152:10  189:16 190:15         140:20 141:2,4,9      144:14 158:3,3,6\nMonday 132:18         152:11 153:11      241:10                141:13,15,22          158:13,19 161:17\nmoney 170:8           154:1,1 169:13    neither 310:9          142:4 152:6 155:6     162:22 163:6\n 190:10 206:22        174:5 175:5 181:3 Ness 134:4,11          155:7,17 156:7,13     169:13 172:2\n 215:16 230:17        184:7 191:10       311:2                 156:16 158:8,11       178:7,8,8,11\n 237:10 241:1,5       192:5             never 142:7 144:22     174:19 177:15,16      179:16 193:8\n 254:5 256:8         Myers 133:10        168:19 204:6          177:18 189:6          229:21,22 230:2,3\n 260:10 275:18        134:17 137:10,13   205:19 209:19         192:17 199:3,4,7      230:4,5,9,10,11\n 279:15 293:18                           213:3 221:15          199:9 202:11,18       230:13 232:3,9,13\n 301:15                       N          275:22 281:7          205:3,22 207:6,17     232:15 233:14\nmonth 190:20         N 136:1,1           288:3                 208:7 216:1,4,9       235:1,4 238:6\n 229:15 232:10       name 137:20,22     new 169:16 170:7       216:14 221:19         260:4 294:22\n 233:11 234:5,6,8     164:10 171:7,8,21  171:20 193:12,18      224:2,13 229:12       297:19\n 235:13,15 236:22     188:2 192:7        194:10,10 203:3       230:5 234:18,19     officer 188:10\n\n\nEsquire Deposition Services                                        MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                              VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 33-8     Filed 06/21/2007    Page 62 of 74\n\n                                   Marialice Williams\n                                                                                             Page 15\n\n  251:15 253:14       oppressive 267:11   292:1 296:10         302:10                255:18 259:20\n  310:2               option 195:7        298:6 312:7         paying 211:8           260:17 261:3,9\nofficers 192:4        options 189:8      pages 132:9 309:8     236:21 241:4        persons 247:13\noffices 133:8 134:3   order 200:9 203:8  paid 167:7 230:20     276:13 277:18       petition 254:14\n  137:12 229:22         215:2 218:20      230:22 231:3        penalty 249:12         259:6 271:4\n  231:4 238:7 311:2     219:8 230:13      235:13,14 237:8     pending 221:7        pets 178:14\nofficials 192:10        260:10 270:8      268:18 269:5,15     people 157:10        petty 189:10\noh 143:21 148:21      ordinarily 158:9    279:7 300:19         168:18 170:3,5      ph 188:1 274:8,9\n  150:9 171:21        original 189:18,20  301:2 302:16         175:22 178:18,21    phone 216:14\n  172:2,8,14 175:10     210:4 263:9 284:1pal 178:7             179:3,7,18 183:15     232:9,16 233:13\n  192:7 204:13,14       284:9,11,16      panel 171:13          184:5,6 189:4         276:9\n  226:14 233:21         285:15 307:1,11  papers 156:10,22      194:14 213:18       phones 232:16\n  255:20              originally 190:11   158:22               222:21 223:8,18     piece 153:18 241:3\nokay 159:11 186:10      290:18           paragraph 187:6       223:18 228:18       pissy 288:1\n  198:10 208:18       originals 284:7     191:18 196:15        229:2,7 231:13,21   place 151:9 190:16\n  237:12 243:20       ostensibly 187:11   199:12 251:19,20     232:13 238:13         192:11 219:13\n  251:22 258:8        Ott 200:15,17      parameters 154:7      257:4 258:22          262:20 293:10,12\n  264:16 267:15         206:5,12,13 207:2part 214:16 227:12    270:8 274:15        placed 272:8\n  268:13 277:10         221:4             238:12 239:17        275:2,19            places 144:1\n  289:7 290:10        ought 170:10        255:19 292:13       people's 175:16        156:13 192:11\n  306:19 307:20       outcome 310:14      294:8 296:19        percent 224:21         197:11 256:3\nold 203:3             outer 230:4         299:2 302:11         226:12,14,15        plain 212:4,22\nonce 152:21 153:3     outrageous 279:2   participate 219:2     227:1,1 271:5       plaintiff 132:6\n  167:8               outside 153:15     particular 145:19    percentage 153:5       134:2 137:21\nones 247:18 263:3     outstanding 254:19  146:22 153:13       perform 275:20         138:1 187:9,14\n  279:18 287:10       owe 268:5           169:20 174:20       performed 275:14     Plaintiff's 136:11\n  297:4               owner 162:12        194:2 196:13        period 230:17          198:3,15\none's 209:18            193:2 253:16      205:3 219:2,9       perjury 249:12       play 176:14 178:7\none-off 225:2,11      O'Melveny 133:10    226:21 228:8        permit 229:1,2       please 137:18\n  228:4 229:10          134:17 137:10,13  257:9 259:8         person 163:22          139:5 167:18\none-page 136:7                            269:16               167:12 171:17         210:1 287:1,1\n  147:14                      P          particularly 188:9    172:5 175:17          311:8,13\none-pager 207:12      package 196:10      215:6 223:18         176:2 177:6 179:2   plus 153:17 193:15\n  207:15               226:21 258:16,18 parties 195:15         179:11,18 182:8     point 145:20 169:7\nopened 228:18          288:1              196:5 310:10,13      184:11 188:2          170:13,14 173:16\noperating 193:1       packed 159:1       partly 261:2,3        194:13 200:15,22      189:2 197:18\noperation 250:9       pad 167:7          partner 251:16        223:15 235:4,13       203:20 204:10\noperative 187:3       page 136:2,5        253:14               235:14 238:22         205:1 214:2 215:5\nopinion 192:20         140:12,12 152:5,5 partnership 251:17    273:12,13 274:12      241:17 267:9\nopportunities          155:6 187:6       party 197:4,9         274:13                301:16\n  182:13               199:13 205:4      pay 161:5 162:9      personal 157:7       points 146:16\nopportunity 154:9      209:12 248:20      230:13 237:7         165:10 170:1          224:18,20\n  159:20 181:21        250:22 262:19      260:3 267:19         176:17 177:4,6      policy 153:19\n  285:6                267:18 268:13      268:3 269:13         219:7 229:19          154:22 184:4,10\nopposed 178:21         274:16 291:4,12    279:8 285:20         239:11 255:7,14       192:4\n\n\nEsquire Deposition Services                                        MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                              VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\f        Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB       Document 33-8       Filed 06/21/2007     Page 63 of 74\n\n                                 Marialice Williams\n                                                                                             Page 16\n\npool 153:15 199:15    282:13,15,17,20    probing 290:1        proffer 264:3,7       push 180:6\npools 154:1 181:2     282:22 283:1       problem 231:16        265:7,9 266:5,18     put 142:21 156:11\n 199:22 207:4         284:5 304:9        problems 256:16       267:4                  158:22 160:2\npoor 177:19 178:22   present 135:8       proceed 281:13       program 154:21          171:13 183:1\npoorly 240:4          137:18 193:22      proceedings 197:18    182:16 205:8           189:16 235:19\nportfolio 152:17      218:22 242:19      proceeds 212:8        215:5 219:3 221:5      237:10 241:1\n 153:3 225:5 227:6   presentation        process 195:18        225:10 227:3           253:5,11 254:4,6\nportion 230:8         194:17 195:22       218:19               228:2 229:8,8,9        258:18,20 269:11\nposed 199:6 245:8    presentations       processes 218:18     project 158:4 227:7     271:13 273:8\nposition 164:18,21    149:9 270:12,13    procurer 213:6        257:3                  277:2 299:12\n 165:7 178:2         presenting 196:12   produce 140:8,22     projects 269:21         300:2 301:11\n 182:20,22           president 171:20     141:11 142:2        proof 265:14            303:5\npossessed 142:22      176:12 184:3,13     144:16 145:13       properties 152:22     putt 178:8\npossession 141:1      191:10              146:3,8 149:19       175:6                p.m 308:6\n 141:12 142:3,13     pressure 241:3       151:13 160:6,10     property 161:5\n 145:10 146:9,10     pretty 148:8         207:15,17 231:7     proposal 154:11,14             Q\n 150:13 155:22        167:21 175:15       268:10 275:8         154:16,18,19         quarter 281:14\n 156:1,3,5,9 157:2    188:22 210:11      produced 142:15       155:4 192:14         quarters 235:19\n 160:18 162:20        211:20 212:1        144:18 145:1,18      220:14,16 229:5      question 143:17\n 258:5                223:10 225:15       146:4,13 150:6,12   propose 280:17         144:5 151:1 164:2\npossessions 157:9     255:12 257:16       150:14 155:21        307:22 308:2          174:15 180:15\n 157:13              previous 209:4       156:2 159:17        proprietorship         188:6 190:9 199:6\npotential 149:10     previously 202:13    189:2 207:18         251:17                209:1 210:1,4\n 224:16 238:14        291:7              producing 168:2      prospective 149:9      212:12 218:7,10\n 256:15              price 181:5          176:13              protected 187:16       220:21 221:7\nPowerPoint 195:22    print 150:2         product 146:19       prove 231:17 264:3     233:3 234:17\n 196:1               printed 263:5        164:2 167:8         proven 180:1           241:20 243:19\npreceding 250:11      288:10              169:17 170:10       provide 240:11,14      244:22 245:4,5,8\nprecisely 143:22     prior 163:14         175:10,15 182:14     256:22 278:4          245:12,14,17\n 144:20 149:7         164:16 165:19       183:5,9 189:21       282:19 283:7          249:16,19 251:6\n 161:8 206:5 222:5    168:21 170:16,17    196:11 206:9         285:5,15 294:19       259:7,21 260:18\npredecessor 247:1     170:18 171:4        215:1 227:7          295:18 302:6          262:10 265:1,5\nprefer 193:12         187:14,20 192:6    production 208:7      303:3                 279:17 283:3,4,13\npreference 178:17     196:11,12 219:9    productions 146:7    provided 205:9         284:22 288:22\npreliminary 185:19    242:16 244:17      productive 176:16     261:14 273:6          289:2,6,17,18\npremium 224:22       privilege 244:3      180:7                283:18 303:12         290:2 294:3\n 226:12,15           privileged 246:3    productivity 176:6   public 133:15          295:21\nprepare 198:18       prize 275:22         176:8,20             229:4 310:1,17       questioning 185:20\n 233:5 249:5         probably 142:20     products 168:2       pull 159:20            277:5\nprepared 149:8        164:1 174:13        170:7 176:14        purposes 267:12       questions 245:19\n 233:16 234:16        175:19 185:3       profession 292:10    pursuant 133:14        245:22 272:21\n 249:9 253:4          201:13 210:14      professional          187:10                284:3 287:19\n 257:15 258:11,14     232:17 241:11       268:15 269:14,18    pursue 193:13          288:6 290:1,13\n 263:14,17 273:14     270:22 271:22       269:19 273:12        200:9                question's 272:19\n 274:6,7,9 277:14     300:6 301:8         294:9,16 302:12     pursuing 193:16       quite 168:8 184:5\n\n\nEsquire Deposition Services                                         MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                               VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB       Document 33-8       Filed 06/21/2007      Page 64 of 74\n\n                                  Marialice Williams\n                                                                                                Page 17\n\n 195:15 230:15        304:10              recognize 148:1       referenced 311:8      relationship 168:17\n 235:3              reason 145:9            198:12 248:17       referred 199:19         170:1,4 171:10\nquote 199:20          151:22 157:1          254:8                 270:19 274:11         173:12 177:4\nquote/unquote         160:9,17 164:14     recollection 148:5    referring 171:5         203:13,21 204:1\n 200:12               217:1 228:15          163:11 250:4          202:17 208:1,8        204:22 213:11\n                      260:2 278:17        recommendation          216:16 274:12         214:1 219:21\n         R            299:5,22 300:1        179:17              reflect 225:1           239:12,19,22\nrace 177:12 178:20 reasonably 305:18      recommended             227:14 230:16         244:6,10\n  183:19 187:13,19 reasons 157:7            194:21                233:4               relationships\n  188:15 240:9        311:10              reconfigured          reflecting 231:2        225:20\nracial 177:22       recall 140:3 143:22     230:14              reflection 293:1      relative 310:12\nrafters 159:1         151:11 152:3        reconvene 280:17      reflective 176:6      relatively 169:16\nraised 186:12         154:10 160:8          280:21                188:19                194:10\nran 154:20 171:16     162:18,21 163:8     record 144:5 185:7    refresh 148:4 250:4   relevance 259:7\n  260:5,6             164:15 171:8          185:8,11 197:15     refusing 258:7          293:17\nranged 224:18         172:9,11 174:2        197:16,20 210:7     regard 206:17         relevant 246:18\nrate 276:13 277:17    185:3 197:3           210:10 212:13         217:11                262:13 263:20\n  277:20,21           219:17 223:20,22      216:6,7,11 218:11   regarding 141:7         265:12,13\nrated 210:18          224:4 236:16          220:22 236:11         196:22 216:17       relied 204:18\nreaction 173:13,16    237:1 242:10          237:13,16 257:13      240:20              reluctant 167:10\n  173:19 184:15       255:15 273:9          266:21 306:6        Registered 310:17     rely 273:11\n  241:14 243:16       291:11 300:22         310:8               regular 206:20        remark 200:20\n  245:9             receipt 221:2         recorded 227:13       regulations 194:20    remember 145:16\nread 187:8 205:8      273:10                272:1                 247:6                 151:15,21 154:12\n  210:7,10 212:11   receipts 233:14,17    records 145:14,16     reinsurer 195:16        158:7 161:3,8\n  212:13 218:9,11     233:18,20 234:14      146:14 159:6        reinsurers 219:1        165:5,17 166:7\n  220:22 249:12       234:17,22 257:15      161:11 185:21       reiterated 220:2,6      179:20 184:4\n  251:19 309:8        257:17 258:12,15      186:9 237:2 239:1   relate 140:17 141:6     190:15,19 191:18\n  311:8,12            258:20 259:1,10       247:15 257:14         141:17 154:16         194:1 207:16\nready 174:20          259:16 261:14         289:11 293:1,9        155:9 161:15          218:7 219:12,14\n  188:21              271:1,2,9,12,15       294:13,14,20        related 142:9           229:5 242:1,22\nreal 153:2 178:10     272:5,7,10,21         295:5 297:11          156:15 200:18         244:18 246:10\n  204:10 226:17       273:2 275:7,9       recovering 257:4        215:17 256:11,12      248:3 273:5,5\n  251:8,10            276:21,22 277:10    Red 222:19 231:22       257:5,8 259:15        277:19,22 290:13\nreality 203:9,19      277:13 278:4        redid 303:15,18         310:9                 296:20,22 297:1,8\nreally 142:7 151:21   283:5,6 301:13,21   redirect 280:22       relates 154:17          297:10,17,21\n  159:5 167:9 168:4   301:22 302:2,2,7      281:1,15            relating 141:1          301:1,4,6 302:16\n  168:8 169:6 172:8   302:17 303:4,5,16   redneck 168:8           148:18 149:5        remembered\n  172:9 174:14,18   receive 226:14          223:12                150:6 157:2           166:19\n  182:13 188:6      received 163:15       reduced 207:9,11        226:10 228:11       remembering\n  196:19 218:8        220:13 250:10         310:7                 245:20 247:12,21      147:10\n  219:19,19,20        292:20 293:18       refer 140:17 141:6      265:18 268:7        REMIC 169:13\n  224:4 235:3,4,8   receiving 140:3         141:17 155:9          278:5               rent 195:4 229:15\n  241:12 255:15     recess 185:10           202:12              relation 190:16         231:3\n  278:19 279:1,7      197:19 237:15       reference 194:2         191:4 243:5,8       rented 231:12,12\n\n\nEsquire Deposition Services                                           MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                 VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 33-8        Filed 06/21/2007      Page 65 of 74\n\n                                   Marialice Williams\n                                                                                                  Page 18\n\n  231:15                151:19 210:7,10       152:1 199:6 282:5     234:1,16,21 237:5     273:15,16 275:6\nrepeat 217:14           212:13 218:11       rest 285:5              252:10 257:15,22      281:2 286:22\nrepeated 219:22         220:22              result 290:22           258:11,13 259:2       296:6 298:16\nrepeating 286:17      required 166:5        retained 141:18         261:13 265:12,16      301:16 302:14\nrephrase 143:17         177:20 271:14         275:5                 266:13,13,17        rights 187:17\nreplacement           requires 152:21       retaliation 187:13      272:9,12 273:11     risk 152:10 153:1,2\n  152:11 155:13       research 239:2          187:19 188:15         273:14 278:22         153:2,2,4 154:2\nreport 170:5            269:22                189:22                279:3,18,19 280:6     155:12 270:5\nReported 132:20       reserved 308:8        retet 292:22            282:20 283:1,19       292:2 300:3\n  301:18              reset 281:14          retirement 162:5        283:21 285:3,4      RMR 132:20\nreporter 137:15       residential 276:10      230:18 288:1          287:9,20 291:8        133:14\n  139:9 147:12        resolved 187:11       retrieve 146:15,20      303:7,11,18         RMS 232:4,7,7\n  150:17 198:1        respect 153:5           146:21 157:11       Revenue 192:20          252:1 253:13,16\n  202:14 210:3,7,10     156:21 177:17,22    retrieved 143:6         277:9 301:12          298:20,22 299:1,1\n  212:13 218:11         200:10 247:7        return 136:18,19        303:14                299:3,6,14,19,22\n  220:22 248:6,8      respected 169:5,8,9     136:21 231:5        review 209:3 249:7    Rob 169:10 184:20\n  253:18 261:16,18    respectful 173:21       232:20 258:20         271:12 273:1          230:2 231:18\n  278:8 280:2 281:3     174:8,12              259:9 261:21          311:8                 235:12 236:18\n  281:6 298:1         respond 159:18          262:2,20,21 263:7   reviewed 152:21,22    Robert 235:12\n  310:17              responded 234:17        263:9,11,12,14,16     283:21 284:14       Robinson 230:2\nreports 225:1         response 140:5,8        266:3 268:8,14        311:12                231:18 235:12,12\n  226:3,9 227:13        140:19 141:12,21      271:4 272:6,9       reviews 176:6           236:2,18\n  233:15                143:2,19 145:18       273:8,15,16 274:6   reward 176:4          role 176:15\nrepresent 137:19        146:4 149:15          274:7,10,16         reworked 284:2,14     rose 175:21\n  137:21 138:1          150:10 155:16         275:13 276:18,20      285:13              rug 159:7\n  141:6,17 191:3        156:17 160:3          277:3,8,13,14       Rhoda 194:7,12        ruined 159:7,8\n  238:19,21 239:7       165:1 205:4 206:1     278:10 281:10       Richard 138:3,6       run 175:3 216:3\n  242:4,8 243:6,7       206:4 229:13          282:11 283:8          166:22 167:6,19     runaround 211:7\n  244:12,13,15          237:20 247:10,15      284:4,5,11 285:1      167:20 168:4,16       211:11\nrepresentative          247:19 251:5,7        285:10,16 286:6,7     169:1,16 170:3,6    running 275:17\n  164:8 247:5           252:17,18,19          286:13 288:8,11       172:2,8 173:8,10      276:15\nrepresented 239:4       270:19 290:3          288:13,19,22          175:10 182:10       runs 276:8\n  240:18 243:12       responses 198:19        289:3 290:17,19       186:19 199:19       rural 181:18\nrepresenting 246:1      198:21 208:5          290:21,22 291:4,5     204:8 222:6,21\nrepresents 239:6        297:20                291:5,10 292:2,13     223:12,14 239:19            S\nrequest 137:12        responsibilities        293:1 295:20,22       240:1 241:9         S 136:1\n  140:20 141:1,4,9      177:17                296:11 298:3,9        249:10 253:4        Sachs 270:6\n  141:13,15,22        responsibility          299:6 300:2,4,8     ride 306:20           sale 162:11\n  142:4 145:6,18        153:14 303:11         300:10 301:11       right 151:17 158:7    sales 174:17\n  146:5 155:6,7,17    responsible 169:11      303:19 305:16         166:16 199:17       Sarah 147:19\n  159:18 207:19         175:4                 311:13                209:9 215:21          186:13\n  247:16,19           responsive 141:8      returned 142:7          221:1,2 227:17,22   sarcastic 223:16\nrequested 140:15        142:3,14 144:16       144:22 284:17         244:12,17 245:1     sat 273:9 277:2\n  140:16 142:14         145:2,5,11 146:9    returns 198:7,9         246:2 253:3 257:2   satisfy 277:3\n  144:20 145:3,12       149:19 151:19         204:18 233:1,6,7      260:21 269:9        save 258:16,17,17\n\n\nEsquire Deposition Services                                             MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                   VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB         Document 33-8       Filed 06/21/2007      Page 66 of 74\n\n                                    Marialice Williams\n                                                                                                 Page 19\n\n  288:11                246:18 247:3,7      separated 238:4       shortly 162:17        situation 158:1\nsaw 252:10 253:6      securitization        separately 286:15     should've 178:3         159:6 179:19\nsaying 143:1            153:11 195:18       September 162:15        186:12                241:15 243:16\n  172:19 183:1          218:20 228:5          262:5,6 283:14      show 181:4 295:19     six 141:4,9,13\n  200:13 213:11         229:8                 291:14              showed 268:17,18        164:4 283:16\n  301:14              securitizing 170:11   serious 148:16        shown 211:18            304:9\nsays 140:14 143:5     security 153:21         275:17              shows 279:7           Sixteen 261:18,19\n  148:2,3 151:16,17     154:5 273:22        seriously 211:12      sic 286:9             slaves 179:7\n  152:10 199:13       see 148:21 152:6      served 164:17         sick 272:16           slightly 230:14\n  202:15 211:21         159:4 163:13        service 192:20        side 169:11 170:1     small 173:7 227:12\n  213:15 223:18         166:17 172:10         195:9 277:9           182:17 219:4        smaller 181:19\n  248:22 250:9          182:13 200:1          297:12 301:12       sign 209:19 211:10    smart 180:7\n  251:2,11 252:16       204:18 209:5,17     services 137:16         249:21 291:5        social 273:21\n  254:22 255:3          215:2 222:18          139:19 151:8          295:22 311:9,12     sold 157:10 162:8\n  267:19 281:20         224:6 226:4,16        260:16 268:15       signature 248:22        230:22\n  300:17 301:17         227:15 233:1          269:14,18,19          249:3,11 262:21     sole 251:17\nschedule 254:16         234:20 241:6          274:17,21 275:1,5     308:8 312:21        solutions 256:15\n  255:3 258:12          248:22 250:6,11       275:13,15,20        signatures 263:8      somebody 161:13\n  306:15 307:15         250:14 251:2,11       276:11 294:9,16     signed 186:4            213:3,20 299:18\nSchlimb 274:8           251:22 260:8          297:2 302:12          210:13,15,16,21     somebody's 178:1\nSchlomb 274:9           262:20 268:16,17      312:1                 211:4 225:21          188:10 279:1\nsearch 140:5,19         270:16,20 273:16    serving 164:16          252:12 253:7        somewhat 170:19\n  141:8,21 143:2,16     274:18 279:6          194:11 238:21         257:22 262:21,22      195:13,14\n  143:18 144:1,7,10     282:4 289:11,13     session 171:12          263:3,6 266:16      son 240:2\n  144:13 149:16         292:14 293:17       set 153:6 304:13        288:9,11 291:7,9    soon 260:13 285:5\n  152:1 160:4           294:10 295:1,2,7    settlement 187:11       291:16 295:21       sorry 144:4 151:2\nsearched 143:7,13       296:12 298:15         188:3,18 189:1,5      309:12 311:11         182:11 209:3\n  145:22 151:18         300:11 302:13,20      189:6,18,21 190:7   significant 188:10      217:14 233:11\n  155:16              seek 244:12             191:4,8,15 204:19     192:17                243:6 245:11\nsecond 199:12         seen 156:14 159:21      240:15,20 243:15    similar 152:12          249:16 251:18\n  201:4 221:13          176:13 213:4          245:9               simple 212:4            258:8 278:1,11\n  235:14 251:19         221:15 254:10,12    seven 141:15,22         225:22                279:19 295:14,17\n  286:9                 280:2                 142:4 155:7,8,17    simply 168:5            297:1 304:2,10\nsecondary 168:3       selecting 200:20        164:4 207:6           173:20 178:22       sort 237:22\n  176:15 218:17       sell 161:4              227:17 276:6          189:3 195:7         sound 243:1\n  256:20              selling 152:17          278:13                207:13 233:16       source 292:21\nsecret 231:14         sen 213:12            sex 187:13,20         sincere 220:17          293:5,5 300:13\nsecretarial 230:1     send 284:15             188:16              Sincerely 311:15      sources 150:10\nsection 250:8,22      senior 169:15         shared 186:3          sine 308:7              270:4 293:19,22\n  251:6 252:15          184:11 191:10       sheet 309:12 311:9    single 154:17         south 230:7\n  253:7               sense 180:20 214:8      312:3                 155:12,13 251:8,9   space 162:22\nsecurities 152:20     sensitive 177:21      sheets 311:11,13        260:19 272:6          231:12,17\n  153:9,16,17         sent 147:19 247:15    she'll 179:8          sit 155:15 278:21     Speak 167:15,17\n  169:15 181:15         247:18 263:4,6      shocked 220:1           280:4               speaking 224:18\n  193:8,9 195:1       separate 285:1        short 237:10          sitting 301:16          241:18\n\n\nEsquire Deposition Services                                             MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                   VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 33-8        Filed 06/21/2007      Page 67 of 74\n\n                                   Marialice Williams\n                                                                                                Page 20\n\nspecific 223:9          265:12 304:15         279:8 297:6           232:17 237:4        155:2 161:11\n  300:15 301:17       statements 199:14       305:19                249:4 253:5         185:21 198:7,9\nspecifically 142:9      223:5,17 271:4      stunned 191:11          255:16 256:13       204:18 231:5\n  145:7 182:4         States 132:1 136:13   stupid 223:3,6          257:10 258:2        232:20,22,22\n  217:17 222:19         136:16 137:6        subcommittee            283:10 296:5,15     233:6,7 234:1,16\n  225:11 291:4          139:18 187:17         256:1                 297:4 303:6         234:20 237:5\n  301:5                 248:11 253:22       subdivision 252:18    survive 180:4         252:10 257:14,15\nspecifics 142:10        303:14                252:19,20             260:10              257:22 258:11,13\nspelling 248:15       status 306:13         subject 136:7         sus 150:11            258:20 259:2,9\n  303:20              statutory 301:19        147:15 191:19       suspect 149:22        261:13,21 262:2\nspend 287:22          stay 182:7 281:18     subordinate 169:15    Swiss 270:5           262:19,21 263:9\nspending 215:1          288:2 304:1 306:6   subpoena 139:17       sworn 138:13 310:5    263:10,12,14,16\n  256:8               stealing 211:8          139:21 140:1,3,6    system 181:5          265:12,16 266:3\nspent 162:5 204:19    Stearns 270:6           140:9 142:15                              266:13,13 268:8\n  272:11              stenotype 310:6         143:2,19 145:4,12            T            268:13 271:3\nspinning 214:22       stepped 241:10          146:10 149:15,20    T 136:1,1             272:9,12 273:11\nsplit 162:12 207:14   steps 303:6             150:7,11 151:6,20   table 175:22 210:1    273:14 274:16\n  211:22 212:5,8,17   stop 236:21             152:2,9 155:18        220:15              275:13 276:18,20\n  212:19 213:3        stopped 236:18,19       163:15 165:19       tactic 204:8          277:2,8,13 279:17\nspoke 165:3 171:11    storage 142:18        subpoenas 160:4       take 151:9 153:14     279:19 280:5\nspouse 284:3            143:9 144:11        subscriptions           167:10 181:21       281:10 282:11,20\nspring 165:22           156:13 157:5,5,9      296:12                183:9 185:18        283:8,18 285:3,4\nstaff 178:6 194:13      157:14,18 158:1     subsequently 190:2      186:8 237:9 277:8   285:10 286:7,13\nStafford 164:12         158:15,19 159:13    subsidiary 193:3        280:14 303:6        287:9,19 288:19\nstalling 204:7          159:22 160:1,4,7    substantial 176:15      304:8 306:18        288:22 289:3\nstamp 136:6,9           160:11                206:22              taken 137:10 157:9    290:19 291:4\n  139:12 150:19       store 159:13          substantially 225:4     157:13 185:10       292:22 295:20,22\nstand 205:22          stored 149:6 150:7    substituting 154:22     189:15 197:19       296:10 298:3\nstandard 181:19         158:9               subterfuge 214:9        206:17 237:15       299:6 300:2,4,8\n  212:20 228:4        story 160:1           suitable 230:13         240:4 310:3,6,11    300:10 301:11\n  229:8               strange 213:20        Suite 134:5 311:3     takes 169:18          303:7,13,18,19\nStar 139:20           Strategist 292:3        311:14 312:2        talk 154:13 179:13 taxable 189:9\nstart 174:8 182:15    Strategists 300:4     summarize 172:19        179:18 191:7,14   taxes 258:19 259:1\n  201:11 234:3        strategy 156:9,21     summer 201:20           210:18 238:13     taxpayer 251:13\nstarted 172:4         Street 133:11 134:4   supervisor 178:3      talked 154:11       team 175:20,21\n  173:20 219:7,10       134:11,18 137:11    supervisory 177:17      179:15 196:5        176:1\n  235:7 236:18          137:17 157:5,19       182:8                 256:13 270:18     technique 204:7\nstate 137:19 238:18     236:10 311:2,13     support 200:3         talking 228:9       telephone 146:14\n  250:9 303:10          312:1                 202:21                236:12              156:8 232:12\nstated 156:6 175:13   strike 274:2 295:9    supposed 305:11       tangential 299:17     273:22 276:1\n  187:14 291:7        structure 149:12        305:22              tape 216:3,9          277:18,22 278:5\n  295:20                195:14 196:13       sure 150:9 152:3      task 169:21         telephones 276:4,5\nstatement 136:13      structures 224:17       179:8,21 189:12     tasks 180:13        tell 140:15 142:10\n  199:19 248:10       Stuart 184:9            189:14 210:3        Tawa 232:1            142:21 143:12\n  249:13 254:19       stuff 270:1 277:2       215:9 218:6 224:5   tax 136:18,19,21      144:20 145:1,6,7\n\n\nEsquire Deposition Services                                            MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                  VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 33-8        Filed 06/21/2007      Page 68 of 74\n\n                                   Marialice Williams\n                                                                                                  Page 21\n\n  147:4 162:19          298:12 307:20         300:17 305:2          217:21 219:9,19       191:13 241:11\n  173:3,9 175:14        308:1                 306:8                 220:2,10,19 221:2     246:20\n  179:12 183:17,21    that'd 307:7          third 140:12,15         235:8 236:1,5,6     tomorrow 182:9\n  184:1 191:12        thereto 249:14          148:12 251:19         238:5,8 239:17        204:14 284:2\n  217:3 222:4 223:9   thing 149:14          thirty 311:12           240:13 241:19       torn 167:6\n  223:11,13 226:17      166:16 167:14       thought 143:13,14       242:11,13,16,19     tortious 202:21\n  226:18 228:7          174:13 207:20         161:19 169:5          243:11,14 244:6     tortiously 203:13\n  229:14 239:21         211:9 214:11          170:10 176:10,21      247:22 254:20       totally 245:12\n  240:7 249:18          228:8 260:19          178:3 181:21          255:16 256:1        totals 269:9\n  259:4 261:5 266:9     269:11 275:16         188:9,17 191:13       258:19 260:21       touch 270:8\n  267:6 274:8 275:6     278:21 287:16         194:9 203:5           263:17 279:15       town 174:20 175:1\n  277:12 278:12       things 142:18           209:19,20 210:15      281:8,21 283:12       175:7,8,11\n  288:14 290:5,16       153:12 155:20         211:3,4 252:2         290:5,11 291:6      track 169:19 226:1\n  290:16                156:10 158:11         271:16,17             297:7,7 304:18        275:21\ntelling 168:18          159:2,8,21 172:4    thoughts 179:6          306:18              tracking 226:2\n  203:15 296:6          176:12 218:1        thousand 230:15       times 168:8,8         traditionally 153:7\ntells 278:20 279:14     220:15 222:4,17       269:8                 190:21 227:17       trailing 167:18\ntemporary 274:17        222:20 223:2,10     three 140:20 141:2      234:9 247:4         training 178:5\n  274:21 275:1,3,5      234:19 280:8          146:17 147:3,5        268:19 275:20       transaction 196:13\n  275:13,15 297:2       299:3 304:3           148:3 177:18          286:20 287:5,6,13     225:11 238:1\n  297:12              think 145:14 147:8      201:12 205:3          289:9 290:20        transactions\nten 146:17 221:19       148:7,14,14,15        229:21 232:12,13      291:14                152:20 155:1\n  226:12 280:19,20      149:1 156:12          234:8 238:7         timing 161:14           202:7 225:2,7\n  281:14                161:7,12 162:4,19     242:18 246:6        tired 286:16            228:4,5 229:9\ntended 181:19           164:3 167:6           268:20 287:5        today 139:1 155:15      238:6\nterm 152:7 224:5        169:22 170:14,15    thrust 256:17           185:20 186:13       transcript 289:12\n  275:2                 170:19 172:4,20     till 236:7              204:13 278:11,13      311:9,12,13\nterminated 188:22       176:7 177:2 179:1   time 137:9 139:3        281:17 285:4        transcription\n  190:13                184:13 188:11         142:19,21 143:8     Today's 137:8           309:10\ntermination 141:19      190:20 191:9,16       143:15 144:20       told 165:4,5 166:4    transitional 142:19\nterms 154:21            196:1,2 197:1         145:20,22 146:18      171:19 173:14       travel 233:11,12\n  211:13 235:4          202:3 207:16,17       150:15 153:10         174:1 175:10          234:3,12 255:17\nterrible 222:17         207:18 208:14,22      157:7,20 158:6,12     181:13 184:12,13      255:17,19 256:6,7\n  223:2,10              209:10 211:17         158:15 159:17         188:17 205:19         257:8 259:14\ntestified 138:14        217:6,22 223:8,11     163:6 165:2,17        211:19 214:11,12      270:15 271:8,20\n  147:3 157:3 244:5     223:13 224:10         168:17 169:11,16      222:3,12 223:10       272:3 273:3 295:6\ntestimony 138:22        225:16 231:9,14       169:18,22 170:13      240:1 272:5           295:10 302:19\n  139:5 216:5,10        231:15 232:21         170:15 171:15         276:21,22 278:14    traveling 150:3\n  261:2 266:9,10        236:4 238:11          174:3 179:12          282:1 283:12          157:6\n  267:6 286:3 308:4     246:16 247:20         180:1,1 182:11        284:13 285:12       treat 173:20 174:11\n  309:9,10 310:4,5      248:3 249:8           183:8,16 184:20       286:14 287:10,13      241:2,11\n  310:8                 250:18 266:12         185:4,5 189:7         288:8,20 290:19     treated 165:9\nTexas 234:10            270:13 272:15,20      192:15 194:10,22      291:13 304:1,8,15     177:10,16 183:18\nThank 139:11            277:1,15 279:14       202:22 208:17         304:17                240:3,5\n  221:20 248:8          282:5 290:22          211:6 212:4 214:6   Tom 188:1,5 191:9     treatment 174:7\n\n\nEsquire Deposition Services                                             MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                   VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 33-8       Filed 06/21/2007      Page 69 of 74\n\n                                   Marialice Williams\n                                                                                             Page 22\n\ntried 158:20 218:1      282:1 294:8          139:18 187:17       vice 171:20 176:12\n                                                                                 245:14\ntrips 233:16 234:12     302:11 304:2,16      248:11 253:22         184:3,13 191:10\n                                                                                Washington\n  235:17 258:16         304:17 305:10,14     303:14              videographer    132:17 133:12\ntrue 192:22 214:19    type 149:12,13       unkind 169:1            135:9 137:1,14134:6,12,19 135:4\n  249:15,22 309:9       154:17 155:10      unlawful 187:12,18      185:8,11 197:16\n                                                                                 137:11,17 194:3\n  310:8                 219:2 270:9        unpleasant 222:16       197:20 216:2,8222:17 231:22\ntruth 205:19          typewriting 310:7      223:1                 237:13,16 306:1,5\n                                                                                 273:20 303:10\ntruthful 138:22       typical 170:2        unrelated 227:21        308:4         311:3,14 312:2\n  139:5 166:18          232:15 234:8       unsecured 254:16      videotape 137:2wasn't 168:4\n  214:3               typing 275:16          255:4                 216:4,9       173:11 176:2\ntry 167:1,10 209:15                        unsigned 209:10,18    Videotaped 132:15\n                                                                                 178:2 182:21\n  218:5                        U           unusual 295:9           133:7         183:3 214:3,19\ntrying 161:6          U 157:5,19           upgrade 181:6         view 167:4 170:12\n                                                                                 228:17 260:4\n  162:19 182:10       Uh-huh 274:19        upset 279:6             267:10        263:16\n  204:19 209:15       ultimately 176:22    usage 276:4           Virgin 193:18  waste 260:20\n  219:1 238:8           288:3              use 155:3 193:12      Virginia 238:18wasting 279:14\n  246:22 256:8,17     Un 254:22              195:5 221:4         virtually 162:10281:8\n  256:22 270:4        unable 157:11          222:13 229:2          167:7 171:16 watched 183:14\n  272:11                208:3                230:8,13 255:7,10     176:9        Watergate 158:3\ntune 230:14           unbecoming             259:19 260:16       visit 231:13,20,21\n                                                                                 158:13,14 160:21\nturn 140:11 155:5       176:11               270:5 277:9         visiting 218:13 161:15,18 162:8\n  191:17 196:14       understand 147:1       311:10              Volume 132:14   162:14 163:1,3\n  202:10,16 221:18      157:22 215:10,11   utilizing 195:7,18      137:2 216:9   229:17,18 230:5,8\n  229:11 248:19         215:12,13,14         196:13                              230:10 231:3\n  250:21 254:15         259:7 277:4        U.S 136:20 298:3          W           235:8 236:9 238:7\n  257:17 258:7          285:13 305:6       U.S.Individual    waited 182:11       276:16\n  259:15 262:19       understanding          136:17,19 261:21waiting 151:3      way 173:8 176:16\n  267:22                182:19 187:2         281:10           221:8              177:16 178:15,15\nturned 167:9 177:2      205:16,18                            want 182:6,7,13     181:10 183:3\n  204:5 205:10        understatement              V           185:21 203:18      185:3 204:16\n  260:13 301:12         232:18           v 132:8 311:4 312:4  213:12,16 214:15   206:2 213:8\nTurning 224:1,12      understood 168:20 vacate 163:5          214:17 217:12,15   223:14 225:5\n  291:12 292:1        underwriting       Van 134:4,11 311:2   217:18 218:6       233:13 256:11\n  298:6                 181:20           various 149:10       220:3,4 237:9      258:11,13 280:8\nTwelve 268:19         undesirable 203:17   195:4 196:5        249:21 258:1,3     280:22 287:17\ntwo 146:7,15,18       unfair 240:22        197:11 218:13      260:20 264:15      294:15 307:1\n  147:6 148:3,5,9     unfairly 240:5       222:21 270:4       276:18 277:11     ways 156:16\n  148:13,14,22,22     unfairness 241:9   vehicle 195:20       279:12 280:14,21 week 212:3 283:22\n  150:15 177:16       unfortunately      verification 288:12  286:18 287:11      284:15\n  189:7 202:3,11,18     168:20           verify 273:2 302:22  288:5,12 289:21   weekend 174:21\n  211:22 213:18       unison 175:22        303:2              291:1 306:5       weeks 238:10\n  216:9 224:10,11     unit 157:14,18     Verizon 278:1       wanted 166:8       Wendell 182:8\n  234:8 235:11,13       162:8 230:5      versus 137:4         167:11 200:7      went 167:14 172:1\n  238:10 246:6,13     United 132:1         139:19 186:18      204:4              204:16 207:2\n  250:10 269:8          136:13,16 137:6    198:17 269:9      wants 217:6 228:22  210:17 232:11\n\n\nEsquire Deposition Services                                            MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                  VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 33-8        Filed 06/21/2007    Page 70 of 74\n\n                                   Marialice Williams\n                                                                                              Page 23\n\n 235:15,15 238:22      294:19 295:18         204:4,14 230:1       208:3                175:20 270:15\n 243:10 269:21         302:6                 235:6 256:10        wrong 167:14          271:20 272:3,11\n 275:14 279:9         Wimberly 164:10        274:14 275:3        wrote 192:13          273:2 295:6\n 290:2 303:14          164:11,14 165:18      278:17,18 297:12     213:14               302:18\nweren't 166:15,15     win 179:21             299:17 300:14       W-2 301:18          $108,343 300:11\n 178:18 214:4,13      Winston 231:11         305:22              W228 134:5 311:3    $12,000 274:17\n 214:19 215:5         winter 165:21         worked 171:6                             $13,000 293:15\n 271:2                Wisconsin 135:3        175:17 178:15                X          $13,272 292:14,16\nWestover 194:7,16      144:19                219:5 230:10        x 132:3,14          $140,000 232:22\n 219:10 247:4         wish 206:1             231:18 236:2                            $170,000 287:20\nwe'll 186:7 204:13    withheld 168:18        238:6 271:11                 Y          $19,793 302:13\n 204:14 207:13        witness 136:2,18,19    274:15              Yeah 235:20         $2 225:2\n 295:16 307:16         136:21 138:12        working 146:18         243:18 251:8      $2,000 268:19\nwe're 204:11           147:21 151:2          158:4,12 159:16       258:9,10 263:1    $200,000 162:9\n 226:16 228:9          167:16,19 208:16      168:1 169:3 170:3     264:10 266:11,22    230:18\n 236:11,20 237:8       208:19 210:9,11       170:4 171:19          306:8 307:3       $22 205:5,7\n 266:18                212:14 218:12         172:12 174:9        year 148:22 162:7   $3 181:6\nwe've 208:3 217:22     221:1 235:20          188:3 199:20          174:2 227:15      $3,000 235:15\n 238:4 266:20,20       237:11 243:20         201:4,11 213:18       232:21 246:15     $36,000 268:16\n 306:13                244:4,11 245:16       219:10 235:5          250:11 257:14       269:4\nwhatsoever 293:20      248:14 249:18         236:8,20 237:7        263:10 268:19,22 $389 295:1\nwhirling 214:22        254:3 258:10          239:16,19 257:3       269:2,4,16 271:9 $40,930 294:9\nwhite 184:9 189:4      261:22 263:18        works 178:15           273:4 284:4 285:1 $5,000 285:20\n 191:9,13 200:16       266:2 269:1,4,8       238:2                 290:21 296:9      $65,000 181:4\n 200:21 256:21         272:16 278:9         world 173:7            297:5 298:8       $7,200 276:1\n 270:5                 280:4,9,13,18        worst 240:1 277:6      299:14\nwife 173:11            281:7,11,18 282:1    wouldn't 189:7       years 146:17 147:6           1\nwife's 188:12          282:8 284:8 287:8     205:19 212:17         192:16 201:12     1 199:13 202:15\nWilliams 132:5,16      289:7,11 290:4,8      228:18 229:1,2        202:3 213:19        227:15 250:8\n 133:8 134:2 136:4     290:12,17 291:19      285:4                 215:1 224:10,11     284:18\n 137:3,4 138:11,18     291:21 298:4         would've 149:11        228:10 241:1      1.2 226:19\n 165:2 185:21          303:22 304:6,17       150:9,12 160:13       246:13 250:10     1:05CV01483\n 186:15,18 187:9       304:22 305:2,9,13     165:21 173:7          267:20 282:21       132:7 137:7\n 187:14 197:22         306:16 307:8          178:3 202:4         yelled 175:22       1:16:18 197:21\n 198:17 209:3          308:8 310:4,6,9       227:19 228:14       York 234:8          1:45:40 216:6\n 216:5,10 232:6        312:5                 237:6 246:2                             1:50:54 216:11\n                                                                          Z          10 136:7 147:13,14\n 237:19 242:16        woman 200:16           286:10 291:16\n                                                                 zero 283:13           147:18 224:21\n 243:6 268:7          women 177:22          wound 215:15\n 298:15 309:7,15       179:16 180:3         write 176:10 203:1            $            226:14 227:1\n 311:4,5 312:4,5      wonder 214:9           203:6 204:13                            10th 143:6\n                                                                 $1,000 232:10\nwilling 165:6 166:3   words 184:18           213:13,21 215:11                        10:29 133:5\n                                                                 $1,150 296:11\n 180:5 208:6           222:13,15 223:9       247:5 260:3                             10:29:14 137:9\n                                                                 $1,450 229:15\n 257:17 259:15        work 159:15           writing 207:9,11                         100 271:5\n                                                                 $1,500 176:4\n 268:10 275:8          171:21 172:3          260:5 295:21                            1020 137:16 311:13\n                                                                 $10,000 159:7\n 278:4 285:15          182:2 194:12         written 194:20                             312:1\n\n\nEsquire Deposition Services                                           MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                 VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\f        Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB         Document 33-8       Filed 06/21/2007        Page 71 of 74\n\n                                   Marialice Williams\n                                                                                                 Page 24\n\n1040 136:17,19,20    185 136:10              250:14,20 261:20      303:15,18            236:7 283:14\n  261:20 281:9       19 187:6 236:4          262:2 263:10,13     2005 157:16,16       3,000 236:21\n  298:2              19th 137:16 306:13      268:8 271:9 273:4     202:4,5 282:22       268:19 269:9\n10546 209:12           311:13 312:1          275:13 277:21         283:15 284:1,15    3:51:35 308:5\n10548/49 209:18      198 136:11              279:5 282:21          303:15,18,20       3:52 308:6\n108,000 301:22       1980 239:13             283:13 295:10         305:16             3003 134:11 311:2\n11 136:9 150:18,19   1987 242:6            20011 273:20          2005/2006 219:20     303 134:4\n  151:5 152:5        1988 244:7            20016 135:4           2006 149:1 157:15    31 310:19\n  162:15 224:2       1990 174:5 239:14     2002 136:19 140:2       157:16 219:20      312 132:9\n11.2 226:19          1993 242:2              142:15,17 143:3,5     262:5,7 291:14     35 227:17 228:9\n11:38:36 185:9       1998 158:2 174:4,6      143:7,20 145:3,11   2007 132:18 133:4      268:4\n11:54:19 185:12        185:4 187:9           145:12,22 146:9       136:8 137:8        36 268:20\n112 226:19             190:18 191:5          146:11 147:8          138:21 147:15      36,000 269:10\n12 136:10 185:15       201:21 236:3          149:16,20 150:7       216:6,11           3900 135:3 144:19\n  185:16 186:16        244:8                 157:19 160:3        2010 310:19\n  226:19             1999 236:6              161:1,7 162:5       202)244-1715                  4\n12:13:57 197:17                              163:14 165:22         134:13             4 149:2 152:5\n13 136:11 198:2,3             2              194:1 209:14        202)383-5300           209:10 211:18,20\n  224:13             2 202:13,16,16,20       210:16 236:7          134:20               227:16 268:13\n132 132:9              204:21 207:21         248:4 250:14,17     202)468-7737           283:9,14 292:1\n138 136:3              208:1 211:16          250:18,20,20          134:7                298:6\n139 136:6              226:19 227:13,14      281:9 282:11,21     202)726-2630         4:00 260:22 280:12\n14 136:13 229:12       227:16 262:19         283:8,14 287:20       274:1\n  248:6,10             284:17 291:4          291:3 292:7,21      202)752-6167                  5\n14th 209:14          2,000 269:7             293:7 294:1,17        135:5              5 227:16,16 274:16\n147 136:7            2:22:54 237:14          295:6,11 296:11     22 205:15              283:9,14\n15 136:15 237:20     2:40 237:17             296:22 297:10       22nd 306:14          5.1 226:20 227:8\n  247:11 253:19,20   20 235:20               299:1 300:4,8       23rd 307:6           5/7/07 312:5\n  261:16             2000 147:7 161:7      2002/2003 219:15      24 142:15 143:3,5    50 226:15 227:1\n15,000 233:10          227:15 236:4,4,7      219:16                145:3,12 146:9     50/50 211:22 212:4\n150 136:9              250:14 282:21       2003 136:20 149:2       149:16,20 150:6      212:9\n1500 233:11 234:5      283:13 284:2,19       151:10,20 155:18    24th 140:2 143:20    51 191:18\n  270:17               284:20 286:13         157:20 160:3          163:14 307:6       53 196:15\n16 136:17 243:1        288:19,22 289:3       236:19 243:1        248 136:13           56 224:20\n  261:17,20            290:17                250:17 282:15,22    25 136:8 147:15      5600 273:17\n1625 133:11 134:18   20006 133:12            283:9 284:17          224:18             5722 236:9\n  137:10             20006-4001 134:19       298:2,10,11,18,21   254 136:15\n17 136:19 151:10     20008 134:6,12          299:6 300:2,10,20   262 136:17             273:22\n  268:14 281:6,9       311:3                 301:10,22           28 138:21\n                     2001 136:17 148:7                                                         6\n18 136:20 250:22                           20036 311:14 312:2    281 136:19\n                       148:9,14 154:11                                                6 155:18 283:15\n  251:6 252:15                             2004 148:7,9,14       298 136:20\n                       154:16 155:4                                                   6th 151:20\n  298:1,2                                    149:4 263:15\n                       158:6,8 161:1,2,3                                  3           620 311:14 312:2\n18A 253:2                                    282:22 283:19,21\n                       161:7 162:4,15                            3 147:8 205:4        68-049-7011\n180771 132:21                                284:12,13 285:11\n                       220:13 248:4                                211:18 227:16        273:21\n  312:6                                      285:16 286:7\n\n\nEsquire Deposition Services                                           MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                                 VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB   Document 33-8   Filed 06/21/2007   Page 72 of 74\n\n                              Marialice Williams\n                                                                                 Page 25\n\n         7\n7 132:18 133:4\n  136:15 187:6\n  253:21\n7th 137:8 216:6,10\n701 230:5\n        8\n8131 140:12\n8133 136:6 139:13\n8142 152:5\n8144 136:9 150:20\n         9\n9 136:6 139:10,12\n  139:16,17\n9/11 158:7\n93 201:14\n94 201:13\n95 201:13\n98 201:13 227:15\n  244:9\n99 227:15\n\n\n\n\nEsquire Deposition Services                                MD - 1-800-539-6398\nD.C. - 1-800-441-3376                                      VA - 1-800-752-8979\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB   Document 33-8   Filed 06/21/2007   Page 73 of 74\n\n\n\n\n                                1\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB   Document 33-8   Filed 06/21/2007   Page 74 of 74\n\f","ocr_status":2,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:47:01-07:00","document_number":"33","attachment_number":7,"pacer_doc_id":"04501889064","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":2,"description":"Exhibit Exhibit F - 5-7-2007 Williams Deposition and Exhibit","acms_document_guid":""},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686748/","id":2686748,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/33/8/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.700960-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:10.009948-08:00","sha1":"e64c298e0d8a158fcb480bf93c9d9d77fdbaa4ad","page_count":2,"file_size":47692,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.8.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.8.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":"Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-9 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 1 of2\n\nEXHIBIT G\n\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-9 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 2of2\n\nGOVERNMENT OF THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA\nDEPARTMENT OF CONSUMER AND REGULATORY AFFAIRS\n\nx **\na\na\n\nCERTIFICATE\n\nTHIS IS TO CERTIFY that there were received and accepted for record in the\nDepartment of Consumer and Regulatory Affairs, Corporations Division, on the\n19th day of October , 1998 , Articles of Organization of:\n\nRISK MITIGATION STRATEGISTS, LLC\n\nWE FURTHER CERTIFY that said Articles of Organization were\n\nRevoked by Proclamation on the 10th Day of November ,2003 , pursuant to the District\nof Columbia Limited Liability Company Act, for having failed and/or refused to file reports\nand pay all fees due and owing on or before June 16th , 2002 and 2003.\n\nIN TESTIMONY WHEREOF T have hereunto set my hand and caused the seal\nof this office to be affixed this 18th day of May, 2007.\n\nLINDA K. ARGO\nInterim Director\n\nBusiness and Professional Licensing Administration\n\nPATRICIA E. GRAYS Ch\nSuperintendent of Corporations\n\nCorporations Division\n\nAdrian M. Fenty\nMayor\n","ocr_status":1,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:44:08-07:00","document_number":"33","attachment_number":8,"pacer_doc_id":"04501888462","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":2,"description":"Exhibit Exhibit G - DC Certificate","acms_document_guid":""},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686749/","id":2686749,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/33/9/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.707265-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:10.024459-08:00","sha1":"8f5dcb3140966ad2f478005010d2bd08107dab49","page_count":52,"file_size":698866,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.9.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.9.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":"Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB   Document 33-10   Filed 06/21/2007   Page 1 of 52\n\n\n\n\n                         EXHIBIT H\n\f      Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB      Document 33-10       Filed 06/21/2007   Page 2 of 52\n\n                                Robert G.           Jones\n\n                                                                                        Page 1\n       IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\n          FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA\n\n\n\n    MARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS,      CIVIL ACTION\n          Plaintiff,                 NO. 1:05CV01483\n\n    VERSUS                       Judge John D. Bates\n\n    FEDERAL NATIONAL MORTGAGE\n    ASSOCIATION, et al.\n          Defendants.\n\n\n          Videotaped Deposition of ROBERT G.\n    JONES, No. 3 Palmer Place, Gulfport,\n    Mississippi, taken in the Law Offices of\n    McGlinchey Stafford, PLLC, 643 Magazine\n    Street, New Orleans, Louisiana, 70130, on\n    Wednesday, the 11th day of April, 2007,\n    commencing at 9:16 a.m. and concluding at\n    12:22 p.m.\n\n\n    APPEARANCES:\n\n             (Via telephone)\n             HARLEY DANIELS, ESQUIRE\n             BRIAN LEDERER, ESQUIRE\n             3003 Van Ness Street, N.W.\n             Suite #W228\n             Washington, D.C. 20008\n                    (Attorneys for the Plaintiff,\n                     Marialice Bathrus Williams)\n\n             FANNIE MAE\n             (By: Jonathan L. Griffith, Esquire)\n             3900 Wisconsin Avenue, NW\n             Washington, DC 20016-2892\n                    (Attorneys for the Defendant,\n                     Fannie Mae)\n\n             O'MELVENY & MYERS, LLP\n             (By: Sarah Alexander Goldfrank, Esq.)\n             1625 Eye Street, NW\n             Washington, D.C. 20006-4001\n                    (Attorneys for the Defendant,\n                    Fannie Mae, Richard Lawch, Grace\n                    Huebscher)\n\n\n\n\n               ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES\nDC 1-800-441-3376   MD 1-800-539-6398   VA 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                           0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c\n\f                 Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB              Document 33-10       Filed 06/21/2007        Page 3 of 52\n\n                                                    Robert G.         Jones\n                                                        Page 2                                                       Page 4\n1    APPEARANCES: (Continued)\n2\n                                                                  1   STIPULATION\n       SETH M. HUNTER                                             2\n3      ATTORNEY & COUNSELOR AT LAW, PLLC\n       404 Hemphill Street                                        3       It is stipulated and agreed by and\n4      Hattiesburg, Mississippi 39401\n           (Attorney for Robert G. Jones)                         4   between counsel for the parties hereto that\n5\n6\n                                                                  5   the deposition of the aforementioned witness\n     VIDEOGRAPHER:                                                6   is hereby being taken under the Federal Rules\n7\n     KARL STIEGMAN, CLVS                                          7   of Civil Procedure, for all purposes, in\n8\n     REPORTED BY:\n                                                                  8   accordance with law;\n9\n   NANCY LAPORTE\n                                                                  9       That the formalities of reading and\n10 Certified Court Reporter                                      10   signing are specifically not waived;\n   State of Louisiana\n11                                                               11       That the formalities of sealing,\n12\n13 * * *\n                                                                 12   certification, and filing are specifically\n14                                                               13   waived;\n   INDEX\n15                                                               14       That all objections, save those as to\n   Exhibits:\n16                                                               15   the form of the question and the\n17\n   Defendant's                                                   16   responsiveness of the answer, are hereby\n   Jones 1 - Bates No. 6907, excerpts of \"First                  17   reserved until such time as this deposition,\n18 Amended Complaint\"\n19 Jones 2 - Bates Nos. 8002-8004, e-mail dated                  18   or any part thereof, may be used or sought to\n   May 3, 2001, from Marialice Williams to Rhoda\n20 Newman, Grace Huebscher, Bob Jones, and Harvey\n                                                                 19   be used in evidence.\n21\n   Hartsfield                                                    20     *****\n   Jones 3 - Excerpt from deposition testimony                   21       NANCY LAPORTE, Certified Court Reporter,\n22 given by Robert Jones on January 30, 2004\n23 Jones 4 - Letter from Marialice Williams to                   22   in and for the Parish of Orleans, State of\n24\n   Lou Hoyes, dated February 2nd, 1999                           23   Louisiana, officiated in administering the\n   Jones 5 - Bates No. 7918, e-mail from                         24   oath to the witness.\n25 Ms. Williams to Bob Jones, \"CC-ing\"\n   H. Hartsfield                                                 25\n                                                        Page 3                                                       Page 5\n 1 Exhibits: (Continued)                                          1       THE VIDEOGRAPHER:\n 2 Jones 6 - Bates Nos. 8015-8017, e-mail dated                   2   This is the videotape deposition\n   May 15th, 2001, from Bob Jones to Stephen\n 3 Noble\n                                                                  3   of Robert G. Jones. This deposition is being\n 4 Jones 7 - Bates Nos. 6230-6232 and 8031,                       4   held at 643 Magazine Street in New Orleans,\n   e-mail                                                         5   Louisiana on April 11th, 2007, at the time\n 5                                                                6   indicated on the video screen, 9:16. My name\n   Plaintiff's:                                                   7   is Karl Stiegman, and I am a certified legal\n 6                                                                8   video specialist with Depo-Vue. The court\n   Exhibit 1 - Bates No. 7232, e-mail from Robert                 9   reporter is Nancy Laporte with Esquire\n 7 Jones to Danny Groves\n 8                                                               10   Reporting.\n 9  * * *                                                        11   Would counsel please introduce\n10                                                               12   themselves?\n11                                                               13       MR. GRIFFITH:\n12                                                               14   Jonathan Griffith for Fannie Mae.\n13                                                               15       MS. GOLDFRANK:\n14\n15\n                                                                 16   Sarah Goldfrank for Fannie Mae,\n16                                                               17   Richard Lawch and Grace Huebscher.\n17                                                               18       MR. HUNTER:\n18                                                               19   Seth Hunter representing Bob\n19                                                               20   Jones.\n20                                                               21       MR. DANIELS:\n21\n22\n                                                                 22   Harley Daniels and Brian Lederer\n23                                                               23   representing Marialice B. Williams.\n24                                                               24       THE VIDEOGRAPHER:\n25                                                               25   Would the court reporter please\n                                                                                                 2 (Pages 2 to 5)\n               ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES\nDC 1-800-441-3376   MD 1-800-539-6398   VA 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                                   0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c\n\f           Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB             Document 33-10           Filed 06/21/2007        Page 4 of 52\n\n                                          Robert G.                Jones\n                                                     Page 6                                                        Page 8\n 1   swear in the witness?                                     1   Q.      At one point in time, were you\n 2   Thereupon,                                                2   president of CAM Financial Services?\n 3   ROBERT G. JONES,                                          3   A.      I was.\n 4   having been first duly sworn, was examined and            4   Q.      Can you tell me when you first\n 5   testified as follows:                                     5   became president of CAM Financial Services?\n 6   EXAMINATION BY MR. GRIFFITH:                              6   A.      When CAM was incorporated in\n 7   Q.      Mr. Jones, can you state your                     7   1991.\n 8   full name and address for the record, please?             8   Q.      When did you step down as\n 9   A.      Robert Gayle Jones, No. 3 Palmer                  9   president?\n10   Place, Gulfport, Mississippi.                            10   A.      In June of 2005.\n11   Q.      Is there any reason why you                      11   Q.      And do you have any other current\n12   cannot testify fully and honestly today?                 12   relationship with CAM Financial Services,\n13   A.      No.                                              13   other than being a stockholder?\n14   Q.      Mr. Jones, did you receive a                     14   A.      That would be it.\n15   subpoena for documents in connection with your           15   Q.      And is CAM Financial Services\n16   testimony in this matter?                                16   still doing business?\n17   A.      I believe my counsel did. I did                  17   A.      I couldn't tell you.\n18   not.                                                     18   Q.      And can you tell me if Hurricane\n19   Q.      And did you have any documents                   19   Katrina had an impact on CAM Financial\n20   that were responsive to this subpoena?                   20   Services?\n21   A.      I had no documents. I had a C.D.                 21   A.      Yes, it did.\n22   that were all Bates-stamped documents that was           22   Q.      What was that impact?\n23   used in the Fannie Mae litigation, and I gave            23   A.      CAM Financial Services' building,\n24   that to Mr. Hunter, and he talked to your                24   documents, its operation was completely wiped\n25   counsel.                                                 25   out by Hurricane Katrina.\n                                                     Page 7                                                        Page 9\n 1   Q.     So the only documents you had                      1   Q.     Are you aware of any new\n 2   were documents that had been produced in the              2   transactions that CAM Financial Services has\n 3   CAM litigation; is that correct?                          3   done since Hurricane Katrina?\n 4   A.     That were produced, yes.                           4   A.     I have no idea.\n 5   Q.     Mr. Jones, can you tell me, what                   5   Q.     And how long has CAM Financial\n 6   is CAM Financial Services, Inc.?                          6   Services been in the insurance business?\n 7       MR. HUNTER:                                           7   A.     I can't tell you how long, but up\n 8   Before we get started on that, I                          8   until 19 -- up until 2005, during product\n 9   want to make a statement for the record that              9   development, taking -- going back to the\n10   Mr. Jones is here as representing Mr. Jones              10   product development days, since 1992, '93 is\n11   and not as a representative of CAM Financial             11   when product development first began.\n12   Services, Incorporated.                                  12   Q.     And can you tell me what\n13   You can go ahead and answer it,                          13   qualifications CAM had as an insurance broker?\n14   Bob.                                                     14   A.     It's -- several of its\n15       THE WITNESS:                                         15   principals, Groves and Rumsey, had an\n16   CAM Financial Services was                               16   insurance background, and on the mortgage\n17   incorporated in 1991 as a financial services             17   brokerage side, I was at -- I had that\n18   company to do both insurance brokerage for --            18   expertise.\n19   and mortgage brokerage of multi-family                   19   Q.     And can you tell me what your\n20   properties.                                              20   experience was -- has been on the insurance\n21   EXAMINATION BY MR. GRIFFITH:                             21   side?\n22   Q.     And Mr. Jones, what is your                       22   A.     You will have to go further with\n23   relationship with CAM Financial Services?                23   that.\n24   A.     I am a stockholder of CAM                         24   Q.     Let me start with this.\n25   Financial Services.                                      25   How many years have you been in\n                                                                                              3 (Pages 6 to 9)\n               ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES\nDC 1-800-441-3376   MD 1-800-539-6398   VA 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                                0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c\n\f           Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB            Document 33-10         Filed 06/21/2007         Page 5 of 52\n\n                                         Robert G.              Jones\n                                                 Page 10                                                     Page 12\n 1   the insurance business?                                1   securities transaction in the United States,\n 2   A.      My first job out of college, and               2   whereby Fannie Mae was able to transfer all of\n 3   while I was in college, I worked for State             3   the risk of loss, as opposed to merely\n 4   Farm Insurance Agencies, and I was employed, I         4   insuring the loss to a third-party insurer,\n 5   guess you could go back to 1966 through the            5   AIG.\"\n 6   early '70s, I worked with State Farm -- Great          6   Mr. Jones, is Ms. Williams'\n 7   -- um, I can't -- Coastal. I can't tell you            7   statement that she had solely created and\n 8   the name of Coastal, but there was another             8   developed the products and processes related\n 9   insurance company. It was property casualty,           9   to the AIG transaction accurate?\n10   and also life insurance in that arena, and            10   A.      From a Fannie Mae perspective,\n11   I've always stayed active with -- on the              11   she represented Fannie Mae, and a number of\n12   insurance side, but not employed by any               12   other players at Fannie Mae would have been a\n13   insurance companies until they -- we started          13   party to that, but she was the lead person at\n14   working on product development for Fannie Mae.        14   Fannie Mae, and it's reasonably accurate,\n15   Q.      And that was in the early 1990s?              15   because, from what I understand, Fannie Mae\n16   A.      1990s.                                        16   appointed her as the point person for the\n17   Q.      And you mentioned two other                   17   creation of that product, and it took some\n18   members of CAM Financial, Mr. Groves and              18   three years to develop and for --\n19   Mr. Rumsey, I believe?                                19   Q.      You mentioned she was the point\n20   A.      Correct.                                      20   person.\n21   Q.      Can you tell me about Mr. Groves'             21   Were you aware of others at\n22   background in the insurance industry?                 22   Fannie Mae who were also involved in the\n23   A.      He had some 20, 25 years                      23   project?\n24   working -- well, off and on, either as a              24   A.      Yes. I think I just mentioned\n25   general agency. Prior to that, he was an              25   that, others at Fannie Mae.\n                                                 Page 11                                                     Page 13\n 1   employee of Nationwide Insurance for a number          1   Q.      Can you tell me who those others\n 2   of years.                                              2   are?\n 3   Q.      Can you describe any other                     3   A.      Lots of lawyers. It was\n 4   experience or qualifications that Mr. Groves           4   practically all lawyers. The names escape me\n 5   had with respect to insurance?                         5   at this time. Paul Van Hook would have been\n 6   A.      You would probably have to ask                 6   the mortgage -- would be the multi-family\n 7   him that.                                              7   attorney. There would have been --\n 8   Q.      How about Mr. Rumsey? Can you                  8   Mr. Griffin (sic), my memory is not as good as\n 9   describe his experience in the insurance               9   it used to be, but there were securities\n10   industry?                                             10   attorneys at Fannie Mae that were involved in\n11   A.      He had a surplus lines broker's               11   this, but probably Paul Van Hook would have\n12   license. He also had a general agency for --          12   been the primary attorney for the mortgage\n13   I think it was called South Coast Insurance,          13   company.\n14   and probably early '90s, and I couldn't tell          14   Q.      Would Richard Lawch have been\n15   you if South Coast is still in business or            15   involved?\n16   not. I assume it must be.                             16   A.      He just would have been -- not\n17   Q.      Mr. Jones, I am going to read for             17   day-to-day, no. He was involved in, I guess\n18   you a paragraph from Ms. Williams' complaint          18   giving -- well, not guess -- in direction, and\n19   against Fannie Mae and ask you some questions         19   he would have been the party, along with Lou\n20   about it.                                             20   Hoyes, that would have given Marialice the\n21   In Paragraph 16 of her complaint,                     21   freedom to develop -- Marialice Williams the\n22   Ms. Williams alleges the following: \"In 1997,         22   freedom to develop this product for Fannie\n23   utilizing products and processes which she had        23   Mae.\n24   solely created and developed, Plaintiff               24   Q.      We have been talking, Mr. Jones,\n25   Williams closed the first mortgage-backed             25   about Fannie Mae, Fannie Mae's involvement in\n                                                                                        4 (Pages 10 to 13)\n               ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES\nDC 1-800-441-3376   MD 1-800-539-6398   VA 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                              0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c\n\f           Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB             Document 33-10         Filed 06/21/2007         Page 6 of 52\n\n                                          Robert G.              Jones\n                                                  Page 14                                                        Page 16\n 1   the products and processes related to the AIG           1   that one did not close, and they took --\n 2   transaction.                                            2   Fannie Mae took Marialice off of that -- off\n 3   Were any other entities involved                        3   of the Bay View Capital case. It was a seven\n 4   in developing those products and processes?             4   hundred million dollar case, and for some\n 5   A.      From the outside of Fannie Mae,                 5   reason, Mr. Lawch wouldn't let her work on it\n 6   yes. CAM Financial.                                     6   after she had created this product for Fannie\n 7   Q.      And what was CAM's role in                      7   Mae, and that was the demise of the Bay View\n 8   developing these products and processes?                8   transaction. It did not close, and CAM didn't\n 9   A.      We were the party that developed                9   get paid on that either.\n10   the -- or worked with Fannie Mae with outside          10   Q.      Mr. Jones, at some point in time,\n11   lawyers from AIG, the business people, the             11   CAM Financial filed a lawsuit against Fannie\n12   business group from AIG in the product                 12   Mae; is that correct?\n13   development. Mr. Groves was pretty involved.           13   A.      That is correct.\n14   I was the point person on the CAM side, but            14   Q.      And do you recall when that\n15   we -- drafts after drafts that were gone               15   lawsuit was filed against Fannie Mae?\n16   through, and CAM was the author, I guess you           16   A.      In -- I believe it was in\n17   could say. All drafts came through me, and I           17   December of -- December 2001. It was the\n18   made the appropriate pen-and-ink changes, and          18   first amended complaint.\n19   we would send the drafts to AIG's lawyers, and         19   Q.      Mr. Jones, I am going to show you\n20   then there was ASLICK lawyers, the surplus             20   what's been marked as Jones Exhibit 1. It's a\n21   lines company for AIG. There were business             21   document, the first page of which is entitled\n22   people from AIG also involved. There was a             22   \"First Amended Complaint.\" The Bates number\n23   number of people.                                      23   on the first page is 6907, and it is -- I will\n24   Q.      And did CAM Financial introduce                24   tell you -- an excerpt of that document. We\n25   the products and processes to Fannie Mae?              25   didn't copy the whole thing.\n                                                  Page 15                                                        Page 17\n 1   A.      Yes.                                            1   Do you recognize this document,\n 2   Q.      And at what point in time did                   2   Mr. Jones?\n 3   Ms. Williams become involved in the process?            3   A.     You said it's excerpts?\n 4   A.      She became involved after CAM                   4   Q.     Yes.\n 5   brought the first DUS lender to Fannie Mae.             5   A.     I believe I do, yes.\n 6   She was involved -- she was in the first                6   Q.     And is this the complaint that\n 7   meeting, along with some credit policy people           7   CAM Financial Services filed against Fannie\n 8   from Fannie Mae, and the DUS lender,                    8   Mae in December of 2001?\n 9   Eichler-Fein. That was in '93 or '94. I                 9   A.     I believe it is.\n10   think it was early '94 probably, and prior to          10   Q.     And I will ask you to turn to the\n11   that, CAM had a -- was working with Mr. Groves         11   last page of the exhibit, which is Bates\n12   through a Nationwide subsidiary called                 12   numbered 63 -- excuse me -- 6936.\n13   Scottsdale -- no -- yes, Scottsdale Insurance,         13   A.     I am there.\n14   and we actually had a draft policy and --              14   Q.     Can you read for me the sentence,\n15   well, it was a term sheet. It wasn't a                 15   kind of halfway down Paragraph 84 starting,\n16   policy. That was the first product that we             16   \"In order to compensate CAM...\"?\n17   took to Fannie Mae.                                    17   A.     Sure.\n18   Q.      Mr. Jones, while Ms. Williams was              18   Q.     Actually, why don't you read the\n19   at Fannie Mae, how many insurance transactions         19   full two sentences so the folks on the phone\n20   did CAM and AIG do with Fannie Mae?                    20   can hear you.\n21   A.      There was the -- the first one                 21   A.     Starting with \"in order\"?\n22   was in 1997, and there was a second one in             22   Q.     Yes, please.\n23   early '98 -- no -- that was working for ten            23   A.     \"In order to compensate CAM for\n24   months with Bay View Capital, Bay View Savings         24   its time, efforts, expertise and expense, CAM\n25   Bank, while Marialice was at Fannie Mae, but           25   was to be the sole and exclusive agent for\n                                                                                          5 (Pages 14 to 17)\n               ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES\nDC 1-800-441-3376   MD 1-800-539-6398   VA 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                                0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c\n\f           Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB             Document 33-10         Filed 06/21/2007         Page 7 of 52\n\n                                          Robert G.              Jones\n                                                  Page 18                                                        Page 20\n 1   Fannie Mae in the procurement of the MCRI               1   Ms. Williams at any point in time?\n 2   insurance. CAM has fulfilled its commitment             2   A.      It's been a long time ago. I am\n 3   to Fannie Mae, and Fannie Mae has breached              3   not -- I just couldn't give you an absolute\n 4   this agreement by failing and refusing to               4   answer on that. I don't know. I don't\n 5   allow CAM to serve as agent for Fannie Mae and          5   recall.\n 6   instead is using other entities for the                 6   Q.      So you don't recall talking to\n 7   procurement of the MCRI insurance and other             7   her about the allegations prior to filing\n 8   derivative first loss risk coverage.\"                   8   suit?\n 9   Q.      Thank you, Mr. Jones.                           9   A.      Prior to?\n10   And, Mr. Jones, is it your                             10   Q.      Yes, prior to.\n11   understanding that CAM was to be the sole and          11   A.      I don't recall.\n12   exclusive agent for Fannie Mae in procurement          12   Q.      Did Ms. Williams give a sworn\n13   of MCRI insurance?                                     13   statement to CAM before it -- and CAM's\n14   A.      That is correct.                               14   attorney -- before CAM filed suit against\n15   Q.      And can you tell me what MCRI                  15   Fannie Mae?\n16   insurance is?                                          16   A.      You are helping me out now.\n17   A.      It stands for multi-family                     17   There was a deposition that was taken by\n18   credit. It's the acronym for multi-family              18   Mr. Wiser prior to Fannie Mae being brought\n19   credit risk insurance.                                 19   into the lawsuit.\n20   Q.      And what is multi-family credit                20   Q.      Would you have discussed your\n21   risk insurance?                                        21   allegations, or potential allegations against\n22   A.      That's exactly what it is.                     22   Fannie Mae, with Ms. Williams at that time?\n23   Q.      Can you describe it a little more              23   A.      I don't know if I would have.\n24   fully?                                                 24   Mr. Wiser might have.\n25   A.      It's designed to insure various                25   Q.      But she was aware at that time\n                                                  Page 19                                                        Page 21\n 1   levels of tranche risk for Fannie Mae.                  1   about a potential lawsuit; is that correct?\n 2   Q.      And does this insurance include                 2   A.      I would say that is true.\n 3   insurance for Fannie Mae's aggregation                  3   Q.      Mr. Jones, are you familiar with\n 4   program?                                                4   Marialice Williams?\n 5   A.      It was expanded to -- during the                5   A.      \"Familiar\" is a broad term.\n 6   product development -- to cover aggregation,            6   Q.      Do you know who Ms. Williams is?\n 7   which is a first-loss tranche risk, but it was          7   A.      Yes.\n 8   designed broad enough that it could cover               8   Q.      How long have you known\n 9   various levels of DUS risk. It could not only           9   Ms. Williams?\n10   do first loss. Various tranches. In fact,              10   A.      I first met Ms. Williams at the\n11   when we first went to Fannie Mae, that was the         11   first introduction of the DUS lender\n12   -- so that the goal was, make it broad enough          12   Eichler-Fein in early 1994 when she was\n13   that -- at that time, we didn't have too much          13   working at Fannie Mae.\n14   success with insurance companies covering              14   Q.      When was the last time you spoke\n15   first loss, because of the thrift debacle.             15   with Ms. Williams?\n16   Q.      Mr. Jones, the complaint alleged               16   A.      It was either the death of her\n17   that Fannie Mae refused to allow CAM to serve          17   mother, which I can't give you a date on that,\n18   as agent, and instead used other entities for          18   or it was shortly after Hurricane Katrina hit,\n19   the procurement of MCRI insurance.                     19   because she had -- was trying to locate us.\n20   Was Craig Ott one of the entities                      20   Q.      And have you spoken with her on\n21   that CAM claimed Fannie Mae was using to               21   any other occasion?\n22   procure MCRI insurance?                                22   A.      I don't believe so.\n23   A.      Yes.                                           23   Q.      And do you recall whether the\n24   Q.      And did you discuss the                        24   conversation regarding the death of her mother\n25   allegations contained in CAM's complaint with          25   was before Hurricane Katrina or after?\n                                                                                         6 (Pages 18 to 21)\n               ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES\nDC 1-800-441-3376   MD 1-800-539-6398   VA 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                                0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c\n\f           Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB             Document 33-10         Filed 06/21/2007        Page 8 of 52\n\n                                          Robert G.              Jones\n                                                  Page 22                                                     Page 24\n 1   A.      It may have been the same                       1   do business in Washington, D.C. CAM and RMS\n 2   conversation. Things were pretty upside-down            2   do not have any connection with respect to\n 3   after Katrina.                                          3   ownership and no one from CAM or RMS has an\n 4   Q.      And what did that discussion --                 4   interest in the other's business ventures.\n 5   what did you talk about during that                     5   However, CAM and RMS have a broker agreement\n 6   discussion?                                             6   that is common in the insurance business. The\n 7   A.      She just asked if we were okay                  7   agreement indicates that when CAM locates an\n 8   after she finally got a call through on the             8   insurance company for a project that RMS is\n 9   cell phone. In fact, we lost the signal, and            9   working on, RMS agrees to compensate CAM\n10   she tried several times to get us back. It             10   through some form of split commission.\n11   was my wife and I, and we weren't even on the          11   However, it does not mean that CAM plays any\n12   Coast. We hadn't even been able to get back            12   role in the development of the program or\n13   to our home at that time.                              13   project that RMS is working on nor does CAM\n14   Q.      Mr. Jones, are you familiar with               14   interface with RMS' customers.\"\n15   a company called Risk Mitigation Strategies,           15   Q.      Does this document refresh your\n16   LLC?                                                   16   recollection as to whether CAM's co-brokerage\n17   A.      Yes.                                           17   agreement was with Risk Mitigation Strategies,\n18   Q.      And can you tell me what Risk                  18   LLC or with Marialice Associates?\n19   Mitigation Strategies, LLC is?                         19   A.      I think, again, Danny Groves did\n20   A.      I don't know the complete make-up              20   the brokerage agreement, and I think it's a\n21   of what Risk Mitigation does, but I know that          21   pretty good indication that that is true.\n22   she was -- formed that company to lay off risk         22   Q.      Do you have any reason to believe\n23   for mortgage companies, and a certificate              23   that the statement that Ms. Williams makes in\n24   company, I believe. She was also working on            24   this letter is inaccurate in any way?\n25   some Fannie Mae programs, the DUS program at           25   A.      No.\n                                                  Page 23                                                     Page 25\n 1   Fannie Mae, and a captive program at Fannie             1   Q.      Are you aware of whether CAM\n 2   Mae, and I think that was all done for Fannie           2   Financial Services ever had a written\n 3   Mae. I think that was all done through Risk             3   co-brokerage agreement with either Risk\n 4   Mitigation.                                             4   Mitigation Strategies, LLC, or with Marialice\n 5   Q.     Did CAM Financial Services ever                  5   Williams, or any other entity controlled by\n 6   have a co-brokerage agreement with Risk                 6   her?\n 7   Mitigation strategies?                                  7   A.      Again, Mr. Groves did the\n 8   A.     Either Risk Mitigation                           8   brokerage agreement, and if -- assuming that\n 9   Strategists, or Marialice Williams &                    9   -- not assuming, but that would have been\n10   Associates, and I wasn't completely familiar           10   produced in CAM's documents to Fannie Mae.\n11   with this, because Danny Groves handled the            11   Q.      I have actually never seen one.\n12   brokerage setup with Marialice Williams. I am          12   I am just asking. I am not saying there is or\n13   pretty sure it was consummated. In fact, I             13   isn't. Maybe just to refresh your\n14   know it was.                                           14   recollection, I am going to show you what I am\n15   Q.     Let me show you what I am marking               15   marking as Jones 3, and it is an excerpt from\n16   as Jones Exhibit 2, and it is a -- an e-mail           16   deposition testimony given by Mr. Jones on\n17   with an attachment. The e-mail is dated May            17   January 30, 2004, and if you could just look\n18   3, 2001, from Marialice Williams to a group of         18   at -- starting with line 20. Maybe you could\n19   people, including Rhoda Newman, Grace                  19   read that for the record.\n20   Huebscher, Bob Jones, and Harvey Hartsfield,           20   A.      \"Did CAM have any written\n21   and the Bates numbers are 8002 through 8004.           21   agreements with Ms. Williams or her business\n22            I would ask you to read for me,               22   at the time?\"\n23   please, the third paragraph in the letter              23   \"I know that Ms. Williams\n24   attached to the e-mail.                                24   discussed and worked with Danny Groves on\n25   A.     \"My company, RMS, is licensed to                25   several different brokers agreements. I don't\n                                                                                         7 (Pages 22 to 25)\n               ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES\nDC 1-800-441-3376   MD 1-800-539-6398   VA 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                               0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c\n\f           Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 33-10         Filed 06/21/2007        Page 9 of 52\n\n                                        Robert G.              Jones\n                                                Page 26                                                     Page 28\n 1   know that any of them were ever consummated.\"         1   agreement described in Ms. Williams'\n 2   Q.     At that point in time, Mr. Jones,              2   interrogatory responses, did CAM Financial\n 3   was it accurate to say that you weren't sure          3   Services have any other co-brokerage\n 4   whether a signed agreement had actually been          4   agreements with RMS? And \"RMS\" I am using as\n 5   entered into?                                         5   a shorthand for Risk Mitigation Strategies,\n 6   A.     I know that there were verbals                 6   LLC.\n 7   that she -- that we had a 50/50 split on              7   A.     They would have -- on DUS\n 8   commissions, and there were e-mails and               8   portfolio customers that Ms. Williams had, I\n 9   correspondence to that effect, and I know that        9   had -- was -- had made several proposals, I\n10   Mr. Groves went through a number of draft            10   think both to AIG and to Zurich, that if she\n11   brokerage agreements with Ms. Williams, but we       11   brought a customer in that would again be\n12   had an agreement, for sure, verbal, that there       12   tranche risk, and we would pay her for\n13   was a 50/50 split on any deal she brought to         13   bringing those to the table.\n14   CAM.                                                 14   Q.     Was that part of the same\n15   Q.     Let me read for you Ms. Williams'             15   co-brokerage agreement, or was it a separate\n16   interrogatory response to Fannie Mae, and the        16   agreement?\n17   interrogatory asked Ms. Williams to describe         17   A.     No, it would be part of the\n18   the contents and scope of her joint venture or       18   general. It would encompass anything she\n19   co-brokerage agreement. Her response to that         19   brought us.\n20   was, quote: I had a simple, common                   20   Q.     And we've been talking about Risk\n21   co-brokerage agreement with CAM Financial that       21   Mitigation Strategies.\n22   entailed paying them a commission in the event       22   Did CAM Financial have any\n23   that they secured the insurance that I needed        23   co-brokerage agreements with Marialice\n24   on any of the proposals that I was working on.       24   Williams as opposed to Risk Mitigation?\n25   These proposals ranged from insuring pools of        25   A.     I am not understanding the\n                                                Page 27                                                     Page 29\n 1   automobile loans, charter school loans,               1   question.\n 2   captive insurance, and reinsurance, etc.              2   Q.      We've talked a little bit about\n 3   Is that an accurate                                   3   an agreement that CAM Financial Services had\n 4   characterization of Risk Mitigation                   4   with Risk Mitigation Strategies, LLC, and my\n 5   Strategies' agreement with CAM?                       5   question to you is whether CAM had a separate\n 6   A.      Could you repeat that?                        6   agreement, co-brokerage agreement with\n 7   Q.      Sure.                                         7   Ms. Williams?\n 8   \"I had a simple, common                               8   A.      I couldn't answer that because of\n 9   co-brokerage agreement with CAM Financial that        9   whether it entailed how her surplus lines\n10   entailed paying them a commission in the event       10   license read. I think a surplus lines license\n11   that they secured the insurance that I needed        11   is for an individual, but again, it would be\n12   on any of the proposals that I was working on.       12   part of the overall agreement.\n13   These proposals ranged from insuring pools of        13   Q.      Do you recall, Mr. Jones, when\n14   automobile loans, charter school loans,              14   the co-brokerage agreement was first entered\n15   captive insurance, and reinsurance.\"                 15   into?\n16   A.      I would say that was a reasonably            16   A.      It would have been shortly after,\n17   accurate statement. I think when she means           17   or in the three months, four months following\n18   reinsurance and captive, that she's referring        18   her leaving Fannie Mae. It would have been in\n19   to tranche risk, and that would include              19   the fall of '98 if I would put a time frame on\n20   mortgages.                                           20   it. That's when Mr. Groves was working with\n21   Q.      And with that caveat, you think              21   her on brokerage agreements.\n22   that her characterization is accurate?               22   Q.      Mr. Jones, I am going to show you\n23   A.      I have no reason to disagree with            23   what's been marked as Jones Exhibit 4. It's a\n24   it.                                                  24   letter from Marialice Williams to Lou Hoyes,\n25   Q.      Other than the co-brokerage                  25   and it is dated February 2nd, 1999.\n                                                                                       8 (Pages 26 to 29)\n               ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES\nDC 1-800-441-3376   MD 1-800-539-6398   VA 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                             0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 33-10         Filed 06/21/2007         Page 10 of 52\n\n                                        Robert G.              Jones\n                                                Page 30                                                         Page 32\n 1   Just for the record, I would ask                      1   Q.      By February 2nd, 1999, it was\n 2   you to read the second paragraph of that              2   clear that was not going to happen; is that\n 3   letter.                                               3   correct?\n 4   A.      \"As you are aware, I left Fannie              4   A.      Well, we were still -- I don't\n 5   Mae in July after being offered an appointment        5   think we were asking for it any further at\n 6   and ownership opportunities with CAM Financial        6   that time, and we were just trying to continue\n 7   Services, Inc.; however, after months of              7   to do some kind of business together, which\n 8   negotiations with its cast of principals, I           8   would help Ms. Williams.\n 9   was unable to reach any agreement with them           9   Q.      And did -- I asked you whether\n10   whatsoever. With Mr. Lee and Mr. Moore, RMS,         10   CAM Financial Services and Risk Mitigation\n11   made a bid last year to purchase CAM, but this       11   Strategies had ever joined into a joint\n12   offer, too, was rebuffed.\"                           12   venture.\n13   Q.      Is it fair to say as of February             13   Did CAM Financial Services and\n14   2nd, 1999, the only agreement between CAM            14   Marialice Williams ever enter into a joint\n15   Financial Services and RMS for Marialice was         15   venture?\n16   the co-brokerage agreement?                          16   A.      We did not, or they did not. I\n17   A.      I believe that's a correct                   17   can't -- I am here to appear as an individual.\n18   statement, and there's something in here about       18   Q.      Did you work on any non-Fannie\n19   the opportunities for appointment. The cast          19   Mae projects with either Ms. Williams or Risk\n20   of principals at CAM had asked that Marialice        20   Mitigation Strategies?\n21   be able to get a letter from Lou Hoyes that          21   A.      Yes, we did. We worked on --\n22   indicated her leaving, that she did not have a       22   with Mr. Hoyes' permission, we worked on a\n23   non-compete clause with Fannie Mae, and I            23   commercial certificates coverage for a -- it\n24   don't know, for some reason or other,                24   wasn't certificates -- it was commercial\n25   Ms. Williams could not get that letter from          25   mortgage portfolio for Metropolitan Bank.\n                                                Page 31                                                         Page 33\n 1   Mr. Hoyes.                                            1   Mr. Hoyes gave us permission, Ms. Williams and\n 2   Q.      So I can get back to the                      2   I, to pursue that, because Fannie Mae could\n 3   question, just to make sure I have a clean            3   not provide, or could not purchase the\n 4   answer, but the question was: Is it fair to           4   mortgage back that had a significant amount of\n 5   say, as of early February, as of February 2nd,        5   commercial loans in it as Metropolitan had\n 6   1999, the only agreement between CAM and the          6   requested, and that was the first venture\n 7   Risk Mitigation Strategists, LLC with                 7   outside of a Fannie Mae portfolio, and we\n 8   Ms. Williams was a co-brokerage agreement?            8   were -- she and I continued to work on captive\n 9   A.      To the best of my knowledge.                  9   insurance. I think it's part of my\n10   Q.      And is it also fair to say that              10   deposition. She -- to some certain extent\n11   no other agreements, to use the language of          11   worked with her on First Atlantic on a\n12   the letter, whatsoever had been reached?             12   certificate coverage. Again, we were -- CAM's\n13   A.      I think that's an accurate                   13   role would have been to find the insurance\n14   statement.                                           14   capacity. It was policies -- that particular\n15   Q.      Did CAM Financial Services and               15   policy Marialice Williams had developed for\n16   Risk Mitigation Strategies, LLC ever enter           16   certificate coverage.\n17   into a joint venture?                                17   Q.      And how long did you continue to\n18   A.      No. That was part of the                     18   do business with Ms. Williams or RMS?\n19   agreement that was supposed to be coming from        19   A.      Again, this was product\n20   Mr. Hoyes that would have enabled Ms. Williams       20   development. Probably the DUS transactions\n21   to form an MWOB? MWOB, yeah, and that would          21   for DUS customers. We were pursuing tranche\n22   be tied together with marketing with CAM             22   coverage. That would have been Fannie Mae\n23   Financial Services. That was something that          23   2000 -- Mr. Griffin, I can't remember when,\n24   Mr. Hoyes had promised Ms. Williams at her           24   but it would have been 2001, I would say in\n25   exit.                                                25   August -- well, actually, it was May, June,\n                                                                                       9 (Pages 30 to 33)\n               ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES\nDC 1-800-441-3376   MD 1-800-539-6398   VA 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                              0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB             Document 33-10          Filed 06/21/2007        Page 11 of 52\n\n                                          Robert G.               Jones\n                                                   Page 34                                                    Page 36\n 1   July, and August, and we were looking for                1   we off?\n 2   tranche coverage for the DUS portfolios. She             2        MR. GRIFFITH:\n 3   asked us if we could find insurance companies.           3   Yes. Off the record.\n 4   That was the project she was working on for              4     THE VIDEOGRAPHER:\n 5   Fannie Mae, and we were only working on it               5             Going off of the record. It's\n 6   from the insurance perspective.                          6   10:05. Videotape No. 1.\n 7   Q.      And were there any other product                 7              (Brief Recess.)\n 8   development projects that you were working on            8     THE VIDEOGRAPHER:\n 9   with Ms. Williams, other than the DUS project?           9             We are back on the record. It's\n10   A.      And the others that we talked                   10   10:13. Beginning of videotape No. 2.\n11   about.                                                  11   EXAMINATION BY MR. GRIFFITH:\n12   Q.      And the others that we talked                   12   Q.      Mr. Jones, did you have anything\n13   about, yes.                                             13   you wanted to clarify on the record?\n14   A.      She brought a charter, or                       14   A.      I do. You asked if there were\n15   introduced a charter loan program for charter           15   any transactions that were ever consummated\n16   schools, but I don't believe we got involved            16   between CAM and Risk Mitigation. There was an\n17   in that with her. I am not sure how far that            17   application fee of $10,000 that was taken from\n18   went.                                                   18   -- I believe the company was First Atlantic,\n19   Q.      And you mentioned that the work                 19   and it was for the purpose of developing a\n20   you were doing with her was product                     20   captive insurance policy for captive coverage,\n21   development work.                                       21   and those fees were split between Risk\n22   Did you do any actual                                   22   Mitigation and CAM.\n23   transactions with Ms. Williams, or with her             23   Q.      Do you recall when that\n24   company, Risk Mitigation Strategists, LLC?              24   transaction took place?\n25   A.      I don't recall any actual                       25   A.      I don't.\n                                                   Page 35                                                    Page 37\n 1   transactions.                                            1   Q.      And we talked a little bit, prior\n 2   Q.       Did CAM ever breach its                         2   to the break, about a DUS transaction\n 3   co-brokerage agreement with Risk Mitigation              3   involving Fannie Mae and several other --\n 4   Strategists, LLC?                                        4   several other product development projects\n 5   A.       I didn't hear you.                              5   that CAM worked on with Ms. Williams or Risk\n 6   Q.       Did CAM Financial Services ever                 6   Mitigation Strategists, and I believe you\n 7   breach its co-brokerage agreement with Risk              7   testified about the timing of the DUS\n 8   Mitigation Strategists, LLC?                             8   transaction. On the non-Fannie Mae\n 9   A.       I am not aware if we did. I                     9   transactions, can you give me a time frame for\n10   don't know how broad breach is.                         10   those?\n11   Q.       Is the co-brokerage agreement                  11   A.      The commercial transaction that\n12   still in effect?                                        12   Marialice Williams and CAM worked on for\n13   A.       I don't know. I am not at CAM                  13   Metropolitan, this did not close, but it was\n14   anymore.                                                14   in August -- August of 1998 is to the best of\n15   Q.       Was it in effect as of the date                15   my recollection of when she and I talked to --\n16   that you stepped down as president of CAM               16   had a conference call with Lou Hoyes, and that\n17   Financial?                                              17   was the non-Fannie Mae transaction.\n18   A.       I know no reason why it was ever               18   Q.      And then you've testified about\n19   terminated, I just couldn't answer that,                19   the First Atlantic transaction.\n20   because Mr. Groves was responsible for                  20   What about the charter\n21   brokerage agreements.                                   21   transaction?\n22   Q.       Would you like to take a quick                 22   A.      That was just product development\n23   break, Mr. Jones?                                       23   that Ms. Williams was working on, and she may\n24        THE WITNESS:                                       24   have sent a term sheet to me, but we did not\n25   Sure. Get some fresh water. Are                         25   get involved in that. CAM did not get\n                                                                                        10 (Pages 34 to 37)\n               ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES\nDC 1-800-441-3376   MD 1-800-539-6398   VA 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                               0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB              Document 33-10            Filed 06/21/2007        Page 12 of 52\n\n                                           Robert G.                 Jones\n                                                      Page 38                                                    Page 40\n 1   involved in that.                                           1   those sentences mean?\n 2   Q.      Mr. Jones, are you familiar with                    2   A.     I think this is something --\n 3   Grace Huebscher?                                            3   Danny Groves had been talking with Zurich\n 4   A.      I am.                                               4   Insurance, or Zurich North American, and it\n 5   Q.      Who is Ms. Huebscher?                               5   was like to tweak their interest. They had, I\n 6   A.      Grace Huebscher, at the time I                      6   believe, something called asset deficiency,\n 7   knew her, was heading the -- Fannie Mae's                   7   and Mr. Groves was looking at perhaps\n 8   aggregation program.                                        8   modifying the MCRI program. I don't recall\n 9   Q.      And can you tell me a little bit                    9   whether there was a separate policy that\n10   about what that aggregation program is?                    10   Zurich had. I think there was a separate\n11   A.      The aggregation program was where                  11   policy that Zurich had called \"asset\n12   Fannie Mae purchased whole loans from                      12   deficiency insurance.\"\n13   seller/servicers to do whole loans. I am                   13   Q.     I want to get back to a\n14   referring strictly to multi-family whole loans             14   discussion we started about Ms. Huebscher.\n15   now for approved Fannie Mae seller/servicers,              15            Did you ever have any discussions\n16   and then those loans are purchased for cash,               16   with Ms. Huebscher about Marialice Williams or\n17   and Fannie Mae then holds those loans in                   17   Risk Mitigation Strategies, LLC after\n18   portfolio, and were the -- using the MCRI                  18   Ms. Williams left Fannie Mae?\n19   insurance product to insure -- to lay off the              19   A.     Yes.\n20   risk of first-loss exposure.                               20   Q.     And when would have those\n21   Q.      Mr. Jones, I am going to show you                  21   discussions have occurred?\n22   what I am going to mark as Jones Exhibit 5.                22   A.     We were at a mortgage bankers\n23   It's a document with the Bates label 7918, and             23   CREF conference. When I say \"we,\"\n24   at the top it appears to be an e-mail from                 24   Ms. Williams, Ms. Huebscher, and me, and we\n25   Ms. Williams to Bob Jones \"CC-ing\" an                      25   would have -- we had some conversation with\n                                                      Page 39                                                    Page 41\n 1   H. Hartsfield.                                              1   Grace Huebscher at that conference about the\n 2   Take a look at that document.                               2   mortgage insurance programs.\n 3   A.       (Witness reviews document.)                        3   Q.      And do you recall when those\n 4   Q.       My first question on this                          4   conversations would have taken place?\n 5   document is whether this document relates to                5   A.      After Marialice Williams left\n 6   the DUS proposal that we previously discussed               6   Fannie Mae. I'm trying to remember where that\n 7   involving Risk Mitigation Strategists?                      7   conference -- there's an annual CREF\n 8   A.       I believe Marialice Williams was                   8   conference. I can picture us standing\n 9   talking with Fannie Mae at this time with --                9   together, but I can just tell you it was after\n10   it appears to be with Ken Bacon -- and there               10   Marialice Williams left Fannie Mae, and it's\n11   was apparently some concern about risk-based               11   probably about this same time frame here.\n12   capital and covering a mezzanine level, either             12   Q.      By \"this same time frame,\" in the\n13   first loss -- it appears that it's above the               13   early to mid part of 2001?\n14   first five percent, and, yes, this would be                14   A.      Correct.\n15   during that same time frame that she was                   15   Q.      And that was a discussion --\n16   pursuing this coverage for three DUS lenders.              16   A.      Something jogged. Ms. Williams,\n17   Q.       In the top of the -- there is two                 17   at the same conference, talked to Ken Bacon\n18   e-mails. It looks like one is responding to                18   about the -- insuring the DUS risk.\n19   the other, and in the bottom e-mail, the top               19   Q.      And the conversation you had\n20   of that it reads, \"Bob Jones wrote: Danny and              20   about Ms. Williams and RMS, Ms. Williams was\n21   I have talked. We would like to treat this as              21   present for that conversation?\n22   a separate business relationship from CAM's                22   A.      Repeat that question?\n23   relationship with Fannie Mae and Aggregation               23   Q.      I asked you whether you had had\n24   and MBS.\"                                                  24   any discussions with Ms. Huebscher about\n25   Can you tell me what that means,                           25   Marialice Williams or Risk Mitigation\n                                                                                          11 (Pages 38 to 41)\n               ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES\nDC 1-800-441-3376   MD 1-800-539-6398   VA 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                                  0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB            Document 33-10        Filed 06/21/2007        Page 13 of 52\n\n                                         Robert G.             Jones\n                                                Page 42                                                    Page 44\n 1   Strategies, LLC, and you mentioned this one           1   Q.      Okay.\n 2   meeting at the conference with yourself and           2   Did Ms. Huebscher make any\n 3   Ms. Williams and Ms. Huebscher.                       3   disparaging remarks about Ms. Williams or Risk\n 4   Other than that conversation, did                     4   Mitigation Strategists, LLC to you?\n 5   you have any other conversations with                 5   A.      I don't recall.\n 6   Ms. Huebscher about Marialice Williams or Risk        6   Q.      Did Ms. Huebscher ever -- strike\n 7   Mitigation Strategists, LLC?                          7   that.\n 8   A.     I don't recall specific                        8   Did Ms. Huebscher ever discuss\n 9   conversations, but they could have occurred in        9   Ms. Williams' business acumen with CAM\n10   e-mails. I am not going to rule out that             10   Financial or with you?\n11   there -- I just remember that one specific           11   A.      I don't have any knowledge or\n12   one, and then there was a specific                   12   recall.\n13   conversation with Ken Bacon with Marialice           13   Q.      Do you recall whether\n14   Williams and myself, and Mr. Bacon had said          14   Ms. Huebscher ever made any false statements\n15   for Marialice to please get in touch with him        15   to you about Ms. Williams or Risk Mitigation\n16   afterward -- got back to Washington.                 16   Strategists, LLC?\n17   Q.     And the conversation you had with             17   A.      I have no recall. I don't think\n18   Ms. Huebscher, Ms. Williams was present for          18   so.\n19   that conversation?                                   19   Q.      Are you familiar with Richard\n20   A.     Correct.                                      20   Lawch?\n21   Q.     And do you recall any other                   21   A.      I am.\n22   specific conversations with Ms. Huebscher            22   Q.      Who is Mr. Lawch?\n23   about Marialice Williams or Risk Mitigation          23   A.      He's a Fannie Mae employee, a\n24   Strategists, LLC?                                    24   vice president, and at the time I knew him, he\n25   A.     I am thinking. My memory's not                25   was the number-two person in multi-family as\n                                                Page 43                                                    Page 45\n 1   as good as it used to be. Lou Hoyes, Rhoda            1   far as the organization structure was\n 2   Newman. There was conversations with Mari --          2   concerned, and I guess you could say he was\n 3   I just don't know that -- Rhoda Newman, after         3   Marialice Williams' direct boss.\n 4   Marialice Williams left, reported to Grace            4   Q.      Did you have any discussions with\n 5   Huebscher. I believe that's correct, and I            5   Mr. Lawch regarding Marialice Williams or Risk\n 6   know there were conversations with Rhoda              6   Mitigation Strategies, LLC after she -- after\n 7   Newman, Marialice Williams, and myself. I             7   Ms. Williams left Fannie Mae?\n 8   just don't know that Grace Huebscher was ever         8   A.      After she left?\n 9   a party to those calls or not.                        9   Q.      Yes.\n10   Q.      Did you ever have any                        10   A.      I had conversations with Richard\n11   conversations with Ms. Huebscher about               11   Lawch before she left. I am trying to think\n12   Marialice Williams or Risk Mitigation                12   if there is any e-mails that involved me with\n13   Strategists, LLC, for which Ms. Williams was         13   either Richard or Grace with Marialice after\n14   not present?                                         14   she left Fannie Mae. At another CREF\n15   A.      I just don't recall.                         15   conference, I remember Marialice and I were\n16   Q.      Did Ms. Huebscher ever tell CAM              16   walking toward Richard. This was after she\n17   Financial Services not to do business with           17   left Fannie Mae, and Richard turned his back\n18   Ms. Williams or Risk Mitigation Strategists,         18   on us and refused to speak to us, and this was\n19   LLC?                                                 19   in a lobby of one of the main hotels, and he\n20   A.      Not that I recall.                           20   just got involved in some other conversations\n21   Q.      Do you recall any disparaging                21   with some other people, but it was obvious he\n22   remarks that Ms. Huebscher made to you about         22   didn't want to have any -- for some reason,\n23   Ms. Williams or Risk Mitigation Strategists,         23   and I thought it was strange why he would not\n24   LLC?                                                 24   have -- why he would -- because he saw me, and\n25   A.      Repeat that question again?                  25   I was walking into this reception area, I\n                                                                                     12 (Pages 42 to 45)\n               ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES\nDC 1-800-441-3376   MD 1-800-539-6398   VA 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                            0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB            Document 33-10         Filed 06/21/2007        Page 14 of 52\n\n                                         Robert G.              Jones\n                                                 Page 46                                                     Page 48\n 1   think it was.                                          1   A.     You are going to have to\n 2   Q.     Do you recall when this                         2   elaborate on that. It's professional. It's a\n 3   conference was?                                        3   professional relationship.\n 4   A.     It's a different one from the --                4   Q.     Is it a close professional\n 5   it might have been the same CREF conference            5   relationship?\n 6   where Marialice -- I think it was the same             6   A.     I am sorry?\n 7   CREF conference where Marialice Williams and I         7   Q.     A close professional\n 8   had a conversation with Richard -- with Grace          8   relationship?\n 9   Huebscher and Ken Bacon.                               9   A.     Reasonable -- yes. I treated\n10   Q.     Thank you for that.                            10   Marialice as a friend, very good friend, but\n11   I want to return to my original                       11   it was professional, but family friend.\n12   question, because I don't think you actually          12   Q.     And we've been talking a little\n13   answered the question, so let me ask it again.        13   bit about a proposal involving DUS loans, and\n14   The question was whether you had                      14   I wanted to focus you on a couple of documents\n15   any discussions with Mr. Lawch about Marialice        15   to make sure I understand what the proposal\n16   Williams or Risk Mitigation Strategies, LLC           16   entailed, and let me show you what I am going\n17   after Ms. Williams left Fannie Mae.                   17   to mark as Jones Exhibit 6. It is an e-mail\n18   A.     I don't recall.                                18   dated May 15th, 2001, from Bob Jones to\n19   Q.     You don't recall any?                          19   Stephen Noble, and it's got Bates numbers 8015\n20   A.     No.                                            20   through 8017.\n21   Q.     Other than -- strike that.                     21   Mr. Jones, do you recognize this\n22   Did you talk to anybody else at                       22   document?\n23   Fannie Mae about Marialice Williams or Risk           23   A.     I do.\n24   Mitigation Strategies, LLC after Ms. Williams         24   Q.     And does this reflect the DUS\n25   left Fannie Mae?                                      25   proposal that we've been discussing here\n                                                 Page 47                                                     Page 49\n 1   A.      Rhoda Newman and I would have had              1   today?\n 2   several conversations. I can't tell you the            2   A.      Yes. This is the -- this is that\n 3   content of any of them, but Rhoda Newman and           3   DUS proposal.\n 4   Marialice Williams were very good friends, and         4   Q.      And in her interrogatory\n 5   so was Betty Dance. There would be                     5   responses, Ms. Williams, in a response to a\n 6   conversations that would come up. \"We saw              6   question about a May 2001 proposal, indicated\n 7   Ms. Williams -- we saw Marialice. She came by          7   that the May 2001 proposal entailed the laying\n 8   this past week,\" or something like that to             8   off of risks associated with the Delegated\n 9   their offices there at Fannie Mae. Those kind          9   Underwriting Servicing program.\n10   of conversations occurred.                            10   Is this the same transaction or\n11   Q.      Just to make sure I understand                11   the same proposal?\n12   who those conversations were with, they would         12   A.      May of 2001?\n13   have been with Rhoda Newman or Betty Dance?           13   Q.      Yes.\n14   A.      That's correct.                               14   A.      I wasn't a party to that\n15   Q.      Did either Ms. Newman or                      15   interrogatory, but I would -- it's the same\n16   Ms. Dance make any disparaging remarks about          16   time frame, and it involves the same 26 DUS\n17   Ms. Williams?                                         17   lenders. Yes.\n18   A.      Not that I recall, other than                 18   Q.      And can I ask you to read -- to\n19   that Marialice was trying to drum up business.        19   turn to the third page of the exhibit, Bates\n20   That's probably all related to that DUS               20   labeled 8017, and read for me the first\n21   program I was talking about. I am assuming            21   sentence under \"laying off the risk \"?\n22   that's why she was there. That and the                22   A.      \"RMS is seeking insurance\n23   captive company.                                      23   coverage for three DUS lenders who want to lay\n24   Q.      Can I ask you just what type of               24   off their risk obligation on their DUS\n25   relationship you have with Ms. Williams?              25   portfolio.\"\n                                                                                      13 (Pages 46 to 49)\n               ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES\nDC 1-800-441-3376   MD 1-800-539-6398   VA 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                              0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB             Document 33-10         Filed 06/21/2007        Page 15 of 52\n\n                                          Robert G.              Jones\n                                                  Page 50                                                    Page 52\n 1   Q.      Does this accurately reflect the                1   were involved in this proposal?\n 2   DUS proposal that we, or the May proposal that          2   A.      The specific insurance company\n 3   we've been discussing?                                  3   that we were writing to here is Zurich U.S.,\n 4   A.      I believe it is, yes. I believe                 4   or Zurich North American, and then I had had\n 5   it is.                                                  5   some conversation with AIG also. Danny had\n 6   Q.      The sentence talks about three                  6   the first conversation with Zurich, Danny\n 7   DUS lenders.                                            7   Groves.\n 8   Do you recall who those lenders                         8   Q.      And were there any other\n 9   were? And I don't want to make this a memory            9   insurance companies that you discussed this\n10   test. If you look at the paragraph above it,           10   proposal with?\n11   there is a discussion, so that may jog your            11   A.      Not me. Mr. Groves may have,\n12   memory.                                                12   but...\n13   A.      That is the same three lenders.                13   Q.      Sitting here today, you don't\n14   Q.      That is HomeStreet Capital, Lend               14   know whether Mr. Groves would have discussed\n15   Lease (Bovis) Real Estate Investments, and Red         15   this with other ones, or that he did discuss\n16   Mortgage Capital Group?                                16   this with other insurance carriers?\n17   A.      That is correct.                               17   A.      I don't know.\n18   Q.      And did the proposal involve any               18   Q.      And in this proposal, is it fair\n19   other specific lenders?                                19   to say that you didn't identify any specific\n20   A.      It could. This was the                         20   lenders, other than the three DUS lenders that\n21   preliminary, and this was the first three              21   are listed on -- in the fourth paragraph of\n22   lenders that Marialice was working with.               22   Page 3 of this exhibit?\n23   Q.      So this specific proposal only                 23   A.      Well, I did not in my e-mail -- I\n24   related to these three, but there was a                24   did not identify those lenders, but they were\n25   possibility for future --                              25   identified by Ms. Williams in her opportunity\n                                                  Page 51                                                    Page 53\n 1   A.      For others. I think they --                     1   to provide insurance coverage from mezzanine\n 2   these were three of the large ones, and --              2   tranche risk.\n 3   Q.      And it hadn't gotten to the point               3   Q.     And does this document refresh\n 4   where the proposal actually involved those              4   your recollection as to whether -- strike\n 5   other lenders?                                          5   that.\n 6   A.      She indicates in there that                     6   Was this proposal being made by\n 7   there's 65 billion or so in the write-up                7   Risk Mitigation Strategies, LLC and CAM as\n 8   somewhere. 64 billion that would probably               8   co-brokers?\n 9   encompass the majority of those.                        9   A.     Yes, it would be. No, let me\n10   Q.      Let me ask you to turn to the                  10   elaborate on that. The clients would be\n11   first page, in the second paragraph, and the           11   Ms. Williams and Fannie Mae. The insurance\n12   second sentence reads, \"There may also be              12   companies are co-brokerage -- would be CAM\n13   several other DUS Lenders having an interest           13   Financial Services for the insurance coverage.\n14   in this coverage at some point in time.\"               14   Q.     And can you tell me what CAM\n15   And so, what can you tell me what                      15   Financial Services' role was in this\n16   that sentence means?                                   16   particular proposal?\n17   A.      Well, I think it's what she's                  17   A.     To locate the insurance coverage\n18   referring to is this broker could be expanded          18   for Ms. Williams and Fannie Mae.\n19   to other lenders.                                      19   Q.     And what was Risk Mitigation\n20   Q.      Is it fair to say that the                     20   Strategies' role in this proposal?\n21   proposal that you were submitting to Mr. Noble         21   A.     In representing those three --\n22   at Zurich involved three particular lenders,           22   those DUS lenders to lay off the risk on their\n23   but then also -- involved three and also --            23   portfolios, and in conjunction with Fannie\n24   actually, just strike that.                            24   Mae, not just the three DUS lenders. The\n25   Can you tell me what insurers                          25   Fannie Mae and the DUS lender are responsible,\n                                                                                       14 (Pages 50 to 53)\n               ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES\nDC 1-800-441-3376   MD 1-800-539-6398   VA 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                              0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 33-10        Filed 06/21/2007        Page 16 of 52\n\n                                        Robert G.             Jones\n                                               Page 54                                                     Page 56\n 1   because that is Fannie Mae risk also. It's           1   Richard Lawch, my notes reflected that CAM\n 2   not just the DUS lender's risk.                      2   was -- there were ten-page notes on those\n 3   Q.      Mr. Jones --                                 3   yellow legal pads that it was our\n 4   A.      In fact, it's a pair of pursuit.             4   understanding, CAM's understanding that we\n 5   It is both lenders, both Fannie Mae and the          5   were exclusive.\n 6   DUS lender.                                          6   Q.      Did you have these -- did you\n 7   Q.      When was the last work that                  7   have these discussions with Marialice Williams\n 8   you -- that CAM Financial did on this                8   while she was at Fannie Mae? Is that correct?\n 9   proposal?                                            9   A.      I don't know if we had specific\n10   A.      With Zurich -- I think we had the           10   conversations to that effect. She was\n11   open door with Zurich and AIG, and it was           11   thinking -- I think she was of the same\n12   another company that came along later, but I        12   opinion that, under Mr. Lawch's direction,\n13   think it was a captive. It would have been          13   that there was going to be MOUs with each new\n14   this time frame from May to -- I would say the      14   insurance company, and in fact, Ms. Williams\n15   window would have probably been May to August,      15   is the one that reflected on that for us to\n16   and we were waiting for Ms. Williams and            16   bring the GenStar, GenRe, Crump, and others,\n17   Fannie Mae to give us direction.                    17   in addition to AIG, and that was under the\n18   Q.      And did you ever get any                    18   direction of Mr. Lawch.\n19   direction from Ms. Williams or Fannie Mae?          19   Q.      Did you have any discussions with\n20   A.      Later from Ms. Williams that                20   Ms. Williams after she left Fannie Mae about\n21   Fannie Mae wasn't pursuing this coverage, but       21   CAM's exclusive relationship with Fannie Mae?\n22   they asked her to come in to make a captive         22   A.      The conversations would have\n23   insurance proposal for Fannie Mae, and again,       23   been, when she was in the process of leaving,\n24   we would have been involved in that.                24   during the time where -- from May to June, or\n25   Q.      And can you tell me about the               25   May to July when she was leaving Fannie Mae\n                                               Page 55                                                     Page 57\n 1   captive insurance proposal?                          1   that -- I think we all believed that CAM had\n 2   A.      I only know that -- I think maybe            2   the exclusive with Fannie Mae and that\n 3   I was copied on some e-mails that Ms. Williams       3   Ms. Williams was negotiating with Lou Hoyes to\n 4   was making a captive presentation in about           4   expand that exclusive where she would -- where\n 5   August of 2001. It's somewhere in that time          5   Ms. Williams would have the marketing\n 6   frame, August, September, and on the direction       6   exclusive with her lenders, and that that\n 7   of Rhoda Newman and Grace Huebscher.                 7   would -- that business would be coming to\n 8   Q.      Is it your understanding of CAM's            8   Fannie Mae, and then CAM would be insuring\n 9   agreement with Fannie Mae that -- I think            9   that business. That was, to my knowledge, was\n10   you've actually testified to this before, so        10   what she had discussed with Mr. Hoyes prior to\n11   just let me confirm it, that Fannie Mae agreed      11   her leaving Fannie Mae. That's when I\n12   that CAM was to be the sole and exclusive           12   mentioned the MWOB.\n13   agent for Fannie Mae in the procurement of          13   Q.      Was it -- is it -- was it CAM's\n14   MCRI insurance?                                     14   understanding that Fannie Mae had to do any\n15   A.      That's my testimony.                        15   business, any MCRI business involving GenStar\n16   Q.      And did you ever discuss this               16   or GenRe through CAM?\n17   exclusive relationship with Ms. Williams?           17   A.      Yes.\n18   A.      Yes. Once she was at Fannie Mae.            18   Q.      And CAM also had an exclusive\n19   We went through a -- those MOUs, as you are         19   relationship with GenStar through Crump; is\n20   very much aware of, and some subsequent MOUs,       20   that correct?\n21   and I think it was everybody's, at that time,       21   A.      That was the brokerage. We had a\n22   it was of everybody's opinion that -- I think       22   wholesaler between us. When I say \"we,\" CAM\n23   you have seen my notes that, from two               23   and Fannie Mae would go through Crump as its\n24   conversations, one that involved Marialice          24   wholesaler -- not Fannie Mae, but CAM would,\n25   Williams and Richard Lawch, and the other with      25   because that's the insurance side of the\n                                                                                    15 (Pages 54 to 57)\n               ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES\nDC 1-800-441-3376   MD 1-800-539-6398   VA 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                            0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB            Document 33-10        Filed 06/21/2007        Page 17 of 52\n\n                                         Robert G.             Jones\n                                                Page 58                                                    Page 60\n 1   transaction, and that's -- I think there's            1   making any disparaging remarks about\n 2   agreements to that.                                   2   Ms. Williams to you, and you also testified\n 3   Q.      Just to make sure I understand                3   that you didn't recall having any\n 4   it, Crump agreed to exclusively write MCRI            4   conversations about Ms. Williams or RMS, Risk\n 5   through CAM, and GenStar committed to write           5   Mitigation Strategies, with Mr. Lawch.\n 6   MCRI exclusively through Crump; is that               6   My question now is: Do you\n 7   correct?                                              7   recall discussing that type of conversation\n 8   A.      That's correct. Worked both                   8   with Ms. Williams?\n 9   ways. And that same exclusive with Crump was          9   A.      Before or after she departed\n10   to be developed with other insurance carriers.       10   Fannie Mae? I'm not with you.\n11        MR. GRIFFITH:                                   11   Q.      After she departed Fannie Mae.\n12   Can we go off the record for a                       12   A.      With either Mr. Lawch or\n13   little bit?                                          13   Ms. Huebscher?\n14        THE VIDEOGRAPHER:                               14   Q.      Yes.\n15   We are going off the record.                         15   A.      Only -- the only one I am\n16   This is videotape No. 2.                             16   somewhat familiar with, or would be familiar\n17       (Brief recess)                                   17   with is an e-mail that Ms. Williams told me\n18     THE VIDEOGRAPHER:                                  18   about that was in late May or early June of\n19             We are going back on the record.           19   2001, of which you know about, and that's of\n20   It's 11:13. This is videotape No. 2.                 20   whether or not they were going to pursue this\n21   EXAMINATION BY MR. GRIFFITH:                         21   coverage with Ms. Williams, and that e-mail --\n22   Q.      Mr. Jones, we have discussed                 22   that's a long time ago, and we furnished the\n23   today a May 2001 proposal involving DUS loans,       23   original of that e-mail to Fannie Mae. I\n24   and we've also touched on a discussion               24   think it was part of my deposition, but that\n25   regarding captive insurance, both of which           25   something about Fannie Mae was pursuing\n                                                Page 59                                                    Page 61\n 1   involved Ms. Williams.                                1   different strategies or something, or\n 2   Are you aware of any other                            2   considering Craig Ott for that type of\n 3   proposals that Ms. Williams made to Fannie Mae        3   coverage, depending on Mr. Lawch's comments,\n 4   after the time she left?                              4   depending on risk-based -- what OFHEO said\n 5   A.      I am thinking, but I am not sure.             5   about risk-based capital.\n 6   She may have made some. I don't know.                 6   Q.      Other than that, you are not\n 7   Q.      But sitting here today, you can't             7   aware of anything?\n 8   --                                                    8   A.      That's the -- at this time, I\n 9   A.      These are the ones I am familiar              9   can't think of any others. We gave you that.\n10   with.                                                10   Could we take a time out\n11   Q.      These two are the ones that you              11   technically for a technical problem?\n12   recall?                                              12        MR. GRIFFITH:\n13   A.      Correct.                                     13   Sure. Let's go off the record.\n14   Q.      And you don't recall today any               14     THE VIDEOGRAPHER:\n15   others?                                              15            We are going off of the record.\n16   A.      Not offhand.                                 16   It's 11:17. This is videotape No. 2.\n17   Q.      Now, you testified earlier that              17     (Brief recess)\n18   you don't recall any conversations with              18     THE VIDEOGRAPHER:\n19   Ms. Huebscher regarding --                           19            We are back on the record. It's\n20   A.      I am sorry. I am having some                 20   11:19. This is videotape No. 2.\n21   trouble. Some technical problems.                    21   EXAMINATION BY MR. GRIFFITH:\n22   Q.      Just let me know if you don't                22   Q.      Mr. Jones, I am going to give you\n23   hear me. I will try to speak loudly.                 23   what's been marked as Jones Exhibit 7. It's a\n24             Mr. Jones, you testified earlier           24   document, Bates labeled 6230 through 6232, and\n25   today that you didn't recall Ms. Huebscher           25   I have also included, attached to that is a\n                                                                                     16 (Pages 58 to 61)\n               ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES\nDC 1-800-441-3376   MD 1-800-539-6398   VA 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                            0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB            Document 33-10        Filed 06/21/2007        Page 18 of 52\n\n                                         Robert G.             Jones\n                                                Page 62                                                    Page 64\n 1   document that's Bates labeled 8031.                   1   We couldn't hear you over hear.\n 2   Can you take a look at that                           2   EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS:\n 3   document for me, please?                              3   Q.      Isn't it true, Mr. Jones, that\n 4   A.      (Witness reviews document.)                   4   you are a person of the --\n 5             Okay.                                       5        THE COURT REPORTER:\n 6   Q.      And Mr. Jones, is Exhibit 7 the               6   The white race?\n 7   e-mail that you were referring to in your             7        MS. GOLDFRANK:\n 8   previous testimony?                                   8   Yes.\n 9   A.      That's correct.                               9   EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS:\n10   Q.      Thank you.                                   10   Q.      -- white race?\n11   Mr. Jones, you testified                             11   A.      Caucasian, white.\n12   previously that you did not recall speaking          12   Q.      Isn't it true that Mr. Groves is\n13   with Mr. Lawch about Marialice Williams or           13   a member of the Caucasian race?\n14   Risk Mitigation Strategies, LLC, correct?            14   A.      That's correct.\n15   A.      After...                                     15   Q.      Isn't it true that Mr. Rumsey is\n16   Q.      After Ms. Williams left Fannie               16   a member of the Caucasian race?\n17   Mae; is that correct?                                17   A.      Yes.\n18   A.      That is correct.                             18   Q.      Isn't it true that Mr. Craig Ott\n19   Q.      And after Ms. Williams left                  19   is a member of the Caucasian race?\n20   Fannie Mae, I take it then that you don't            20   A.      I believe so, yes.\n21   recall any conversation in which Mr. Lawch           21   Q.      Did CAM have any -- isn't it true\n22   told CAM not to do business with Ms. Williams?       22   that all of the CAM shareholders were members\n23   A.      I don't recall of any                        23   of the Caucasian race?\n24   conversations.                                       24   A.      That's correct.\n25   Q.      And you don't recall any                     25   Q.      Now, isn't it true that you began\n                                                Page 63                                                    Page 65\n 1   conversations in which Mr. Lawch made any             1   to seek business from Fannie Mae in\n 2   disparaging remarks about Ms. Williams after          2   approximately 1992, 1993?\n 3   she left Fannie Mae?                                  3   A.     Our first meeting with Fannie\n 4   A.      I don't recall of any.                        4   Mae -- well, with DUS lenders, I was already\n 5   Q.      And you don't recall any false                5   doing -- CAM was already doing business with\n 6   statements that Mr. Lawch made to you about           6   DUS lenders, and then, yes, that's correct.\n 7   Ms. Williams after she left Fannie Mae?               7   We went to Fannie Mae. CAM went to Fannie Mae\n 8   A.      Well, same answer; same question.             8   with one of those DUS lenders in either late\n 9   Q.      Really just the same question.                9   '93 or early '94.\n10        MR. GRIFFITH:                                   10   Q.     And what was the nature of that\n11   I don't have anything further.                       11   business?\n12   EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS: (Via telephone)          12   A.     Prior to Fannie Mae, it was\n13   Q.      This is Harley Daniels asking                13   multi-family mortgage brokerage, and then\n14   questions of Mr. Jones.                              14   involving Fannie Mae was the introduction and\n15   Are you receiving me?                                15   development of a multi-family mortgage\n16   A.      I hear you, Mr. Daniels.                     16   insurance coverage policy in the early\n17   Q.      For the record, Mr. Jones, isn't             17   development stages.\n18   it true that you are a person of the --              18   Q.     Now, at that time, did Mr. Groves\n19        THE COURT REPORTER:                             19   have any experience in the area of the\n20   I'm sorry. I can't understand                        20   secondary mortgage market?\n21   that.                                                21   A.     Is he saying Mr. Groves?\n22        THE WITNESS:                                    22   Q.     Yes.\n23   I can't hear that.                                   23   A.     Only on the -- can you repeat\n24        MS. GOLDFRANK:                                  24   that question?\n25   You'll have to repeat yourself.                      25       MR. GRIFFITH:\n                                                                                    17 (Pages 62 to 65)\n               ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES\nDC 1-800-441-3376   MD 1-800-539-6398   VA 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                            0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB             Document 33-10            Filed 06/21/2007        Page 19 of 52\n\n                                          Robert G.                 Jones\n                                                     Page 66                                                    Page 68\n 1   Maybe we'll see if the court                               1   (Court reporter reads back previous question)\n 2   reporter can repeat it.                                    2   EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS:\n 3       MR. DANIELS:                                           3   Q.     That was the development of\n 4   Certainly, please. In fact, if                             4   low-income housing.\n 5   Mr. Jones would direct those questions to the              5   A.     That is correct. On the\n 6   court reporter, I'd appreciate it.                         6   inner-city, mid-city properties on low to\n 7   (Court reporter reads back prior question)                 7   \"mod\" incoming housing, there was not an\n 8       THE WITNESS:                                           8   execution that was efficient in the\n 9   Not to my knowledge.                                       9   marketplace.\n10   EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS:                               10   Q.     And was this fact, the fact that\n11   Q.     Did Mr. Rumsey have any                            11   it would improve the ability of Fannie Mae to\n12   experience in that area?                                  12   issue loans in urban areas more efficiently,\n13   A.     With -- only with REO, real                        13   was this generally known to Richard Lawch and\n14   estate owned. Multi-family REO with Freddie               14   Grace Huebscher and the people you were\n15   Mac and Fannie Mae.                                       15   dealing with at Fannie Mae?\n16   Q.     You would agree it was not a                       16   A.     No. Only Marialice Williams.\n17   major part of his expertise at that time; is              17   Q.     Now --\n18   that correct?                                             18   A.     Well, wait, wait.\n19   A.     On the secondary market, that is                   19       MR. GRIFFITH:\n20   correct. This is the property set that                    20   Hold on a second. I think\n21   tanked.                                                   21   Mr. Jones is going to finish his answer.\n22   Q.     And, Mr. Jones, your experience                    22       THE WITNESS:\n23   was basically in the insurance area; isn't                23   There were some changes in\n24   that correct?                                             24   accounting in how risk-based capital was\n25   A.     No. My experience was mortgage                     25   reported at the thrift and at the -- for\n                                                     Page 67                                                    Page 69\n 1   banking. My background was mortgage banking,               1   commercial banks that Mr. Lawch would have\n 2   and yes, I had some insurance experience.                  2   known about, because the -- that particular\n 3   Q.      And isn't it fair to say that the                  3   type transaction had -- there was a void in\n 4   general subject of what you were trying to                 4   the marketplace, and for that -- for those\n 5   accomplish with Fannie Mae would be the merger             5   portfolios to be sold to Fannie Mae, and that\n 6   of insurance and mortgage -- secure-type                   6   was the -- I would -- I can't speak for\n 7   mortgages?                                                 7   certain that Mr. Lawch would have known about\n 8   A.      That is correct. In laying off                     8   that, but Fannie Mae's volume had dried up\n 9   risk in hard to -- in the inner-city of                    9   for -- from those banks and thrifts that were\n10   America where thrifts and commercial banks --             10   trying to sell their mortgages, and both\n11   where there was a void there, and it was to --            11   Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac corporately would\n12   our -- the objective that we were wanting to              12   have known that that execution was no longer\n13   -- that CAM or that Bob Jones wanted to -- it             13   available because of the changings in the\n14   was combining those two experiences to improve            14   general accounting standards, and that's why\n15   the efficiency of a transaction, and for those            15   it was so important to -- for Ms. Williams,\n16   thrifts and small commercial banks to lay --              16   from the Fannie Mae perspective, to develop\n17   to be able to put those mortgages in                      17   this type of coverage with -- with CAM and its\n18   securities.                                               18   insurance contacts, to open that back up in\n19   Q.      And wouldn't you agree that it                    19   the marketplace. There was a void of those\n20   was that that was Marialice's passion for this            20   transactions for affordable housing.\n21   particular issue?                                         21   EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS:\n22        MR. GRIFFITH:                                        22   Q.      Now, do you think it would be\n23   I'm going to ask the court                                23   fair to call all of these various products\n24   reporter to read that back, because I don't               24   involving insurance and the secondary mortgage\n25   think Mr. Jones heard you.                                25   market, would you call them credit-enhancement\n                                                                                         18 (Pages 66 to 69)\n               ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES\nDC 1-800-441-3376   MD 1-800-539-6398   VA 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                                 0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB             Document 33-10         Filed 06/21/2007          Page 20 of 52\n\n                                          Robert G.              Jones\n                                                  Page 70                                                         Page 72\n 1   products?                                               1   note from our videographer here. We are just\n 2   A.     Absolutely.                                      2   changing the tapes.\n 3   Q.     Would you mean some of the                       3        THE VIDEOGRAPHER:\n 4   programs that Fannie Mae was involved in that           4   We are going off the record.\n 5   caused for a credit-enhancement using these             5   It's 11:33. It's the end of videotape No. 2.\n 6   various insurance pools?                                6            (Off the record)\n 7       MR. GRIFFITH:                                       7     THE VIDEOGRAPHER:\n 8   Objection, vague.                                       8            We are back on the record. It's\n 9       THE WITNESS:                                        9   11:36. This is videotape No. 3.\n10   You heard the question, but I                          10   EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS:\n11   couldn't.                                              11   Q.      Mr. Jones, wouldn't you agree\n12       MR. DANIELS:                                       12   that the -- that the products you developed\n13   Would you ask the question to                          13   for credit-enhancement were also applicable to\n14   Mr. Jones, please, and let's let him determine         14   Fannie Mae's aggregation program?\n15   whether it was vague or not.                           15   A.      Yes.\n16   (Court reporter reads back previous question)          16        MR. GRIFFITH:\n17       MR. GRIFFITH:                                      17   Objection. Objection.\n18   Objection, foundation and                              18        MR. DANIELS:\n19   vagueness. Go ahead.                                   19   He answered yes?\n20   EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS:                            20        THE WITNESS:\n21   Q.     Can I ask the witness to answer                 21   Yes.\n22   the question, please?                                  22   EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS:\n23   A.     You are going to have to repeat                 23   Q.      And wouldn't you agree that they\n24   it one more time.                                      24   would also be applicable to the negotiated\n25   Q.     Now, you've agreed that the                     25   transactions program?\n                                                  Page 71                                                         Page 73\n 1   merger of insurance and the secondary mortgage          1   A.      Yes, I would agree.\n 2   market, in general, could be categorized or             2   Q.      And wouldn't you agree that they\n 3   called credit enhancement; is that correct?             3   would also be applicable to the captive\n 4   A.      In the insuring of the first                    4   insurance program?\n 5   level of risk, or even the mezzanine level of           5        MR. GRIFFITH:\n 6   risk, yes. And that enhancement became a                6   Objection.\n 7   triple-A-rated insurance policy.                        7        THE WITNESS:\n 8   Q.      And that enhancement could apply                8   Yes, I would agree.\n 9   to DUS programs; is that correct?                       9   EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS:\n10       MR. GRIFFITH:                                      10   Q.      And would they also apply to the\n11   Objection.                                             11   face amount certificate program that you and\n12       THE WITNESS:                                       12   Marialice worked on with First Atlantic, I\n13   I don't understand the question.                       13   believe it was?\n14   EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS:                            14        MR. GRIFFITH:\n15   Q.      Would you call what you were                   15   Objection.\n16   proposing to Fannie Mae, in the DUS program,           16        THE WITNESS:\n17   as a credit enhancement?                               17   That is correct.\n18   A.      Yes. That is correct. That's                   18   EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS:\n19   the first proposal that was made to Fannie Mae         19   Q.      Now, moving on, I have got an\n20   in the presence of Marialice Williams, and             20   exhibit which I haven't marked, but it has the\n21   also people from credit policy, was to -- was          21   numbers 9703 on it.\n22   a credit-enhancement for the DUS lender.               22        MS. GOLDFRANK:\n23   Q.      Now -- was that also true --                   23   Is it something we sent down to\n24       MR. GRIFFITH:                                      24   you?\n25   Hold on one second. We've got a                        25        MR. DANIELS:\n                                                                                        19 (Pages 70 to 73)\n               ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES\nDC 1-800-441-3376   MD 1-800-539-6398   VA 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                                 0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB              Document 33-10           Filed 06/21/2007         Page 21 of 52\n\n                                           Robert G.                Jones\n                                                     Page 74                                                     Page 76\n 1   Yes. It's a memo -- it's an                                1   did not have a non-compete clause, and that\n 2   e-mail from Bob Jones to probably D. Groves                2   she was free to move forward with CAM, because\n 3   dated September 7th, 1998 .                                3   we did not have the Fannie Mae agreement that\n 4        MS. GOLDFRANK:                                        4   she had been trying -- that she thought she\n 5   Is it 7297?                                                5   was going to get from Mr. Hoyes when she left\n 6        MR. DANIELS:                                          6   Fannie Mae. Mr. Rumsey would not move forward\n 7   9703 is on the right on the                                7   with Ms. Williams without the comfort level\n 8   bottom MBW 007232. I think it was sort of                  8   that there was no non-compete clause, so in\n 9   partially referred to in one of the questions              9   trying to keep the -- our entire effort, the\n10   that came earlier.                                        10   CAM corporate strategy to expand its business\n11        MS. GOLDFRANK:                                       11   with Fannie Mae, I was proposing that -- and I\n12   You think we used it earlier?                             12   don't have what the document is here, but that\n13        MR. DANIELS:                                         13   CAM be purchased, or we join with an equity\n14   That number was referred to                               14   partner to raise capital, and that suitor\n15   earlier. I don't think you asked a question               15   could have been a suitor by Ms. Williams, and\n16   about it.                                                 16   there was someone from -- a group from Crump\n17        MR. GRIFFITH:                                        17   had -- Crump, who was our wholesale broker,\n18   What's the number again?                                  18   had indicated an interest in buying CAM, and\n19        MR. DANIELS:                                         19   that was the purpose of this e-mail was about.\n20   007232.                                                   20   Q.     And so when you are referring to\n21    THE VIDEOGRAPHER:                                        21   the recent developments involving Marialice\n22            Going off of the record. It's                    22   leaving Fannie Mae, are you -- you are only\n23   11:39. This is videotape No. 3.                           23   referring to the fact that she didn't supply\n24            (Off the record)                                 24   you, or Fannie wouldn't give you a non-compete\n25        THE VIDEOGRAPHER:                                    25   assurance, or were there other elements\n                                                     Page 75                                                     Page 77\n 1   Going back on the record. It's                             1   involved?\n 2   11:40. This is videotape No. 3.                            2   A.      The assurance -- this is from\n 3   EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS:                                3   Mr. Rumsey's perspective -- that he didn't\n 4   Q.      Mr. Jones, do you have what we've                  4   want to get sued by Fannie Mae for pursuing\n 5   marked as Plaintiff's 1? Is that what we are               5   marketing with Marialice and Fannie Mae\n 6   calling it?                                                6   customers, and had asked that she be able to\n 7   A.      7232? Yes, I do.                                   7   get -- I guess it's a comfort letter -- that\n 8   Q.      Now, this is -- this is an e-mail                  8   there was no -- that she wouldn't be violating\n 9   that you wrote to Danny Groves, right?                     9   any kind of non-compete clauses in her leaving\n10   A.      That is correct.                                  10   Fannie Mae.\n11   Q.      And in there you say, \"In light                   11   Q.      Now, this was, in effect,\n12   of all of the recent developments involving               12   devastating for CAM, obviously, because isn't\n13   Marialice leaving Fannie Mae,\" what did you               13   it true, after you realized that Marialice was\n14   mean by that? What were the recent                        14   not going to be part of your package, that CAM\n15   developments you were referring to?                       15   was in serious trouble and needed to attract\n16   A.      Let me read the entire e-mail                     16   additional capital to carry its program\n17   first.                                                    17   forward?\n18   Q.      Certainly.                                        18        MR. GRIFFITH:\n19   A.      This is where Chuck -- like me to                 19   Objection.\n20   answer that question?                                     20        THE WITNESS:\n21   Q.      Please, yes.                                      21   I think it's twofold. The Bay\n22   A.      Chuck here, I am referring to                     22   View portfolio did not close, and it -- after\n23   Chuck Rumsey, had been asking that Marialice              23   CAM had spent ten months on that and had\n24   Williams furnish a -- something from Lou Hoyes            24   incurred a lot of -- a lot of costs of\n25   that would just say that Marialice Williams               25   underwriting the loans out at Bay View, all of\n                                                                                          20 (Pages 74 to 77)\n               ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES\nDC 1-800-441-3376   MD 1-800-539-6398   VA 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                                  0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 33-10         Filed 06/21/2007        Page 22 of 52\n\n                                        Robert G.              Jones\n                                                Page 78                                                    Page 80\n 1   the structuring of the -- getting the approval        1   ideas with Fannie Mae.\n 2   of the portfolio from AIG. Richard Lawch had          2   A.       She's -- Ms. Williams was, in my\n 3   signed the binder accepting the coverage for          3   opinion, critical to making those transactions\n 4   Fannie Mae, and then the -- while the                 4   work, because she understood the efficiency of\n 5   mortgages were in the process of being                5   the execution and was the point person on the\n 6   delivered to Fannie Mae, there was a                  6   insurance product for Fannie Mae. Nobody\n 7   substantial amount of what CAM had spent and          7   else -- this Green -- Alan Greenwald had no\n 8   didn't collect a dime on, and then Marialice,         8   clue how that transaction should work and had\n 9   in the same process, leaves Fannie Mae at the         9   no idea about the execution, and Richard Lawch\n10   very same time during the same time period,          10   put him in charge of it.\n11   because -- and like I had mentioned, Mr. Lawch       11   Q.       Now, you worked with\n12   refused to let Ms. Williams work on the Bay          12   Marialice from approximately 1992, '93 to 2000\n13   View transaction, so CAM was in much need of         13   into the 21st century; is that correct?\n14   attracting an equity partner.                        14   A.       1994, early 1994 to at least\n15   EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS:                          15   2001.\n16   Q.      How did you find out that Richard            16   Q.       Did you form any opinions as to\n17   Lawch had refused to let Marialice work on the       17   the quality of the work she was doing in\n18   transaction?                                         18   working with you on this Fannie Mae?\n19   A.      Can that question be repeated?               19   A.       The quality of her work was very\n20   (Court reporter reads back previous question)        20   good. She understood the insurance execution.\n21       THE WITNESS:                                     21   Now, she learned a lot more about the\n22   It was my personal involvement                       22   insurance side. As time went on, she went\n23   with Bay View Capital. They did not have an          23   through every one of those drafts of\n24   investment banker, and CAM was the                   24   40-some-odd insurance drafts to -- before the\n25   intermediary between Bay View and Fannie Mae,        25   first transaction was closed with Metropolitan\n                                                Page 79                                                    Page 81\n 1   and I specifically asked Richard for Marialice        1   Savings Bank, and her knowledge was -- there\n 2   to stay on that -- to stay on that                    2   was no -- I don't think there was anybody else\n 3   transaction, and he refused, and he put two           3   that understood small loans, the small loan\n 4   subordinates on the transaction, and to quote         4   program for multi-family for Fannie Mae at\n 5   Bay View, that -- Bay View Capital, Bay View          5   Fannie Mae. Nobody had any higher level of\n 6   Savings Bank, they -- Lawrence Schwartz, their        6   expertise on the small loan programs that --\n 7   director of secondary marketing says, \"Fannie         7   in my opinion anyway. Now, that's just my\n 8   Mae has just beat this to death. We are               8   opinion.\n 9   stopping the transaction,\" and that was in the        9   Q.     Now, after she left Fannie Mae,\n10   middle of mortgages being delivered to Fannie        10   you had an opportunity to observe her work\n11   Mae.                                                 11   with triple A insurance companies, didn't you?\n12   EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS:                          12       MR. GRIFFITH:\n13   Q.      And what -- Mr. Jones, do you                13   Objection.\n14   remember exactly when that occurred, or              14       THE WITNESS:\n15   essentially when that occurred?                      15   With -- after she left Fannie\n16   A.      We started working on it in --               16   Mae, she worked with CAM on the Zurich program\n17   CAM started working on it at Richard Lawch and       17   and was -- that was for the Fannie Mae DUS,\n18   Marialice's direction in the fall of '97,            18   and then she wrote her own policies, to my\n19   right after the Metropolitan transaction             19   knowledge. She and probably -- she may have\n20   closed, which was a milestone for Fannie Mae,        20   had some assistance from Eric and John at\n21   and it went until August of 1998, July -- July       21   First Atlantic on the certificate policies,\n22   of 1998, before Bay View pulled out.                 22   but what I saw was good quality work.\n23   Q.      And please explain to -- why                 23   EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS:\n24   Marialice Williams' involvement was so               24   Q.     Now, are you familiar with\n25   critical to moving forward on your original          25   Mr. Craig Ott?\n                                                                                     21 (Pages 78 to 81)\n               ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES\nDC 1-800-441-3376   MD 1-800-539-6398   VA 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                            0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB             Document 33-10         Filed 06/21/2007        Page 23 of 52\n\n                                          Robert G.              Jones\n                                                  Page 82                                                    Page 84\n 1       THE WITNESS:                                        1   Q.     And what were the fundamental\n 2   I can't hear the question.                              2   allegations in your complaint against Fannie\n 3   (Court reporter reads back previous question)           3   Mae? What was the basis, in sort of laymen's\n 4       THE WITNESS:                                        4   terms --\n 5   Much more so than I would like to                       5   A.     That Fannie Mae was not honoring\n 6   be.                                                     6   the terms of the exclusive that had been\n 7   EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS:                             7   promised us and was taking this insurance\n 8   Q.      Now, were you familiar with                     8   company to other insurance carriers. This\n 9   Mr. Ott's qualifications to broker this                 9   insurance coverage to other insurance\n10   business with Fannie Mae?                              10   carriers.\n11       THE WITNESS:                                       11   Q.     So that if Fannie Mae at some\n12   I don't understand the question.                       12   point said that the reason they didn't do\n13       MR. GRIFFITH:                                      13   business with Marialice was because you had an\n14   Could you read back the question?                      14   exclusive on this product, you would have to\n15   (Court reporter reads back prior question)             15   say that that would not be true; is that\n16       THE WITNESS:                                       16   right?\n17   \"Familiar\" bothers me. When                            17       MR. GRIFFITH:\n18   Crump first introduced CAM to Craig Ott, he            18   Objection.\n19   knew nothing about this particular insurance           19       THE WITNESS:\n20   product. He had no knowledge, in my opinion,           20   I'm not following that.\n21   of the insurance product that we developed,            21       MR. DANIELS:\n22   and in turn tried to change it on his own to           22   Read the question back. If it\n23   go around CAM to -- on several transactions.           23   doesn't work, I'll ask it again.\n24   EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS:                            24   (Court reporter reads back previous question)\n25   Q.      Now, earlier in your testimony                 25       THE WITNESS:\n                                                  Page 83                                                    Page 85\n 1   you stated that you believed you had an                 1   I don't feel I am qualified to\n 2   exclusive agreement with Fannie Mae to do               2   answer your question.\n 3   credit enhancement using your insurance                 3   EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS:\n 4   product; is that correct?                               4   Q.       Well, I mean, at some point, they\n 5   A.      That is correct.                                5   actually gave the business that you thought\n 6   Q.      Now, did that belief prove to be                6   you were entitled to to others; isn't that\n 7   true?                                                   7   correct?\n 8   A.      In my opinion, we still have the                8   A.       That is correct. They gave it to\n 9   exclusivity based on the agreements with                9   Craig Ott.\n10   Richard Lawch, but the tweaking of MOUs at             10   Q.       Now, can you tell us, for the\n11   Fannie Mae, and then the pressure from                 11   record, the amount of commission you received\n12   Mr. Lawch for us to sign the MOU -- \"Either,           12   from Fannie Mae pursuing the business that\n13   sign it, or we are not going to do business            13   Marialice was not a part of?\n14   with you.\" There was the exclusivity in that           14   A.       I think that's probably in CAM's\n15   MOU, and reduced it to the specific insurance          15   litigation and in documents that are\n16   companies that were in the MOU, and then               16   disclosed, but I couldn't answer that\n17   Mr. Lawch refused to do future MOUs with us.           17   question.\n18   Q.      In other words, in your opinion                18   Q.       Would it be more or less than\n19   at least, Mr. Lawch breached his commitments           19   three million dollars?\n20   to CAM to do this business?                            20   A.       I am sure it's less than that.\n21   A.      In my opinion, yes.                            21   It's in expert reports.\n22   Q.      And, in fact, you -- CAM sued                  22   Q.       Now --\n23   Craig Ott, as a party, and sued Fannie Mae; is         23   A.       Or I am reasonably sure it's less\n24   that correct?                                          24   than that. It would be in CAM's expert\n25   A.      That is correct.                               25   reports.\n                                                                                       22 (Pages 82 to 85)\n               ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES\nDC 1-800-441-3376   MD 1-800-539-6398   VA 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                              0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB            Document 33-10         Filed 06/21/2007        Page 24 of 52\n\n                                          Robert G.             Jones\n                                                 Page 86                                                     Page 88\n 1   Q.     Do you think it was more than two               1   was appalled to learn that there were -- was\n 2   million dollars?                                       2   the number of aggregation transactions that\n 3   A.     I would have to refer to the                    3   had -- that had been closed. I don't think\n 4   reports.                                               4   there was anything other than maybe something\n 5   Q.     Wouldn't you agree that Marialice               5   that was -- you-all picked up in the CAM -- in\n 6   was unaware of the level of commissions that           6   the CAM litigation.\n 7   you received from Fannie Mae?                          7   Q.      Perhaps you said what I suggested\n 8   A.     Probably so, yes.                               8   to Conway Downing.\n 9   Q.     And --                                          9   Is that possible?\n10        MS. GOLDFRANK:                                   10        THE WITNESS:\n11   Harley, he wasn't finished with                       11   I didn't hear the question.\n12   his answer.                                           12        MR. GRIFFITH:\n13        MR. DANIELS:                                     13   Can you repeat the question?\n14   I'm sorry.                                            14        MR. DANIELS:\n15        THE WITNESS:                                     15   Yes.\n16   I think I said probably so,                           16   EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS:\n17   because she was not familiar with the volume          17   Q.      You recall that I was trying to\n18   of business in the aggregate -- that was being        18   bring -- sort of refresh your memory on a\n19   done under aggregation that Grace Huebscher           19   conversation with Marialice held in the summer\n20   and Richard Lawch had strategized and insured.        20   of 2006.\n21   EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS:                           21   Do you recall a conversation with\n22   Q.     And isn't it true that she only                22   Conway Downing in the late summer of 2006\n23   became aware of this sometime this summer,            23   where you expressed similar sentiments\n24   summer of 2006?                                       24   about --\n25        MR. GRIFFITH:                                    25   A.      In the -- Conway Downing was in\n                                                 Page 87                                                     Page 89\n 1   Objection.                                             1   Gulfport to -- and he -- I am not -- that must\n 2       THE WITNESS:                                       2   be where the CAM litigation files came up, and\n 3   I don't know.                                          3   that's -- perhaps that's where the numbers\n 4   EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS:                            4   were generated, and because he went through\n 5   Q.      Did she call you? Did you                      5   the federal courthouse documents in 2006, and\n 6   receive a telephone call from her after she            6   that may be where that information came from.\n 7   began to review the CAM litigation files               7   Q.      I mean, your comment or your -- I\n 8   raising the issue with you?                            8   am trying to get at the comment you made to\n 9   A.      I don't recall a telephone call.               9   Conway about Marialice not being happy about\n10   There -- I believe -- there was an e-mail             10   what she's going to see in the CAM litigation\n11   sometime that -- something about the -- either        11   file.\n12   commissions or something in the litigation            12        MR. GRIFFITH:\n13   with CAM, yes. That would have been --                13   Objection.\n14   something in the CAM litigation documents that        14        THE WITNESS:\n15   I am assuming that you-all had.                       15   I think Conway may have already\n16   Q.      And during the course of one of               16   had gotten those documents, or when we spoke.\n17   those conversations, didn't you say to                17   I don't recall exactly how that happened. I\n18   Marialice, \"Marialice, I know you are going to        18   did have breakfast with Conway one morning\n19   have a problem with what you see,\" or, \"This          19   when he was in Gulfport, but the conversation\n20   is going to surprise you,\" or, \"I know you are        20   I had with Ms. Williams was before the CAM\n21   going to have feelings about it\"? Something           21   lawsuit and our -- after she -- the CAM\n22   to that effect?                                       22   lawsuit litigation was going on, but it was --\n23   A.      I don't think that was 2006. She              23   it was either 2001 or 2002, and she and I had\n24   and I had a conversation not too long --              24   the conversation about how much -- how many\n25   probably in 2000 or 2001 when she and I -- she        25   aggregation transactions had been done, and\n                                                                                      23 (Pages 86 to 89)\n               ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES\nDC 1-800-441-3376   MD 1-800-539-6398   VA 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                              0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB              Document 33-10           Filed 06/21/2007         Page 25 of 52\n\n                                           Robert G.                Jones\n                                                     Page 90                                                     Page 92\n 1   she was just not -- she was not aware of                   1   Mae entered into these contracts for the\n 2   those. She thought we had only done the MBS                2   products that you and Marialice were offering?\n 3   with \"Met.\"                                                3       MR. GRIFFITH:\n 4   EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS:                                4   Objection.\n 5   Q.      Now, were you present at the                       5       THE WITNESS:\n 6   fourth day of Marialice's deposition in                    6   To my knowledge, Fannie Mae had\n 7   Washington in November of 2003?                            7   never entered into a contract like the\n 8   A.      Yes, I was.                                        8   CAM/Fannie Mae MOU. They never -- it had\n 9   Q.      And do you recall Marialice's                      9   never been done before. I can't specifically\n10   testimony with regard to Richard Ross'                    10   say how Fannie Mae otherwise entered into\n11   attitude toward you?                                      11   those type of contracts that had never been\n12   A.      Yes, I do.                                        12   done.\n13   Q.      And what was that, to the extent                  13   EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS:\n14   that you remember?                                        14   Q.     Now, it's true that Fannie Mae\n15   A.      Well, the attitude that -- which                  15   did not issue a request for proposals for your\n16   I couldn't -- had some difficulty believing,              16   product; is that right? That you were aware\n17   Mr. Lawch referred to the -- to me as a                   17   of.\n18   \"redneck\" from Mississippi, and that                      18   A.     They did not specifically. No,\n19   apparently it was common knowledge around                 19   they did not.\n20   Fannie Mae.                                               20   Q.     And when was the first time you\n21   Q.      That that's how he regarded you?                  21   approached Fannie Mae to make -- proposing\n22   A.      That is correct.                                  22   that business be done in this area of\n23        MR. GRIFFITH:                                        23   credit-enhancement?\n24   Harley, it's John Griffith here                           24   A.     You are going to have to repeat\n25   for a second. How much longer do you have?                25   the question.\n                                                     Page 91                                                     Page 93\n 1        MR. DANIELS:                                          1   Q.      When was the first time that CAM\n 2   If I could put you on mute so I                            2   made a proposal to Fannie Mae for\n 3   could confer with my colleague, I may be                   3   credit-enhancement products?\n 4   toward one, two, or three questions.                       4   A.      In May of -- either February or\n 5        MR. GRIFFITH:                                         5   May of 1994 when I met with Marialice\n 6   Can we go off for five minutes?                            6   Williams, Bill Batts from credit policy, and I\n 7   I just have to step out for two seconds.                   7   think several people from Eichler-Fein, one of\n 8        MR. DANIELS:                                          8   the DUS lenders.\n 9   Why don't you re-call us, and                              9   Q.      Did Fannie Mae, at that time,\n10   we'll be ready to go.                                     10   accept your proposal?\n11     THE VIDEOGRAPHER:                                       11   A.      They -- the credit -- Marialice\n12            Going off of the record. It's                    12   Williams brought credit policy, a member of\n13   12:06. This is videotape No. 3.                           13   credit policy, who had been a mortgage banker,\n14            (Brief Recess.)                                  14   or investment banker in New York, Bill\n15     THE VIDEOGRAPHER:                                       15   Batts -- Bill Batts from Fannie Mae credit\n16            We are back on the record. It's                  16   policy says, \"I like the proposal. Bring me a\n17   12:13. This is videotape No. 3.                           17   triple A -- bring Fannie Mae a triple-A-rated\n18   EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS:                               18   insurance carrier, and then -- and develop\n19   Q.      Mr. Jones, you've -- between, I                   19   that policy with Fannie Mae and the insurance\n20   would say 1993 and 2002, you sent off in an               20   companies, and I think we've got an\n21   effort to secure business from Fannie Mae; is             21   execution.\"\n22   that not correct?                                         22   Q.      When?\n23   A.      That is correct.                                  23   A.      Three years later.\n24   Q.      Now, would you describe for us                    24   Q.      So they didn't -- the process was\n25   the process that you observed for how Fannie              25   different from you making a proposal and their\n                                                                                          24 (Pages 90 to 93)\n               ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES\nDC 1-800-441-3376   MD 1-800-539-6398   VA 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                                  0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c\n\f          Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB            Document 33-10         Filed 06/21/2007        Page 26 of 52\n\n                                          Robert G.             Jones\n                                                 Page 94                                                       Page 96\n 1   accepting your proposal?                               1   the -- in fact, there are some e-mails. I\n 2   A.      That is correct. That was all                  2   don't know where they are. They were in\n 3   product development.                                   3   disclosed documents, that discloses either a\n 4   Q.      And during that process, in fact,              4   joint venture or an MWOB-owned business for\n 5   you made many, many proposals to Fannie Mae on         5   Marialice Williams.\n 6   this product; is that correct?                         6   EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS:\n 7   A.      There were many drafts of the                  7   Q.      Did you understand that that\n 8   policy. If each one of those is a proposal,            8   would enhance your ability to do business with\n 9   it was -- it was all part of product                   9   Fannie Mae?\n10   development with AIG, Fannie Mae, and CAM.            10   A.      I believe that was an important\n11   Q.      But you would agree it's not a                11   part of it, yes.\n12   simple -- you know, a simple contract proposal        12   Q.      And do you know whether Marialice\n13   where there is an offer and an acceptance, and        13   was ever designated an MWOB?\n14   then you have a contract?                             14   A.      I do not know. I do not know.\n15   A.      That's correct. CAM was working               15   Q.      After Marialice left Fannie Mae,\n16   with Fannie Mae as a partner, and that's the          16   did you, after that, hear any discussion of\n17   jargon, or how Richard Lawch identified CAM           17   the MWOB process in connection with what you\n18   as -- that it was a partner. It was a                 18   were trying to accomplish with Marialice?\n19   partnership.                                          19   A.      I can't answer that, because I\n20   Q.      And Marialice was not part of                 20   don't recall, but I am sure that, in general\n21   your partnership between Fannie Mae and CAM on        21   terms, that we all were thinking that this\n22   the MCRI business; is that correct?                   22   would enhance her business, and I don't think\n23   A.      No, Marialice Williams was an                 23   she had any stockholders initially, so she\n24   integral part of the development.                     24   would have been a solely-owned MWOB business.\n25   Q.      After she left Fannie Mae?                    25       MR. DANIELS:\n                                                 Page 95                                                       Page 97\n 1   A.      Oh, not after she left Fannie                  1   Mr. Jones, I want to thank you\n 2   Mae, no.                                               2   for your transparent and truthful testimony\n 3   Q.      Now, you used the term \"MWOB\"                  3   today, and no further questions.\n 4   earlier in your testimony.                             4        MR. HUNTER:\n 5   Do you know what those initials                        5   I've got a couple of questions,\n 6   stand for?                                             6   if that's all right, or if you-all would\n 7   A.      A woman --                                     7   rather me wait till you-all get finished.\n 8   Q.      Let me give it a try, and you                  8        MR. GRIFFITH:\n 9   tell me whether --                                     9   No, I think we're done.\n10   A.      No. MWOB is a minority                        10        MR. HUNTER:\n11   woman-owned business.                                 11   I have two questions to ask\n12   Q.      Minority business program?                    12   Mr. Jones.\n13   A.      Well, in this, MWOB would have a              13        MR. DANIELS:\n14   woman.                                                14   Who is speaking now? I am sorry.\n15   Q.      Owned business?                               15        MR. HUNTER:\n16   A.      Yes.                                          16   This is Seth Hunter, counsel for\n17   Q.      And was it your understanding                 17   Mr. Jones.\n18   that part of the reason that Fannie Mae --            18        MR. DANIELS:\n19   that Lou Hoyes was proposing that Marialice be        19   Thank you, Mr. Hunter.\n20   set up as an MWOB?                                    20   EXAMINATION BY MR. HUNTER:\n21        MR. GRIFFITH:                                    21   Q.      I just want to clarify a couple\n22   Objection.                                            22   of things.\n23        THE WITNESS:                                     23   Mr. Jones, when you left CAM\n24   I was aware of conversations that                     24   Financial Services as president and CEO, was\n25   Marialice had with Lou Hoyes, and that was            25   that voluntary?\n                                                                                      25 (Pages 94 to 97)\n               ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES\nDC 1-800-441-3376   MD 1-800-539-6398   VA 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                              0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c\n\f           Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB                    Document 33-10    Filed 06/21/2007   Page 27 of 52\n\n                                               Robert G.              Jones\n                                                        Page 98\n 1   A.      No.\n 2   Q.      And when you were speaking\n 3   earlier of product development, and you were\n 4   working with Marialice Williams, was that\n 5   product development as a -- were you working\n 6   for CAM Financial Services, Incorporated\n 7   developing the product?\n 8   A.      Was I working for CAM Financial\n 9   Services?\n10   Q.      Yes.\n11   A.      Absolutely.\n12       MR. HUNTER:\n13   That's all I have.\n14\n15     *    *   *\n16\n17\n18\n19\n20\n21\n22\n23\n24\n25\n                                                        Page 99\n 1         REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE\n 2\n 3\n 4       I, NANCY LAPORTE, Certified Court\n 5   Reporter, State of Louisiana, do hereby\n 6   certify that the above-mentioned witness,\n 7   after having been first duly sworn by me to\n 8   testify to the truth, did testify as\n 9   hereinabove set forth;\n10       That the testimony was reported by me in\n11   shorthand transcribed under my personal\n12   direction and supervision, and is a true and\n13   correct transcript, to the best of my ability\n14   and understanding;\n15       That I am not of counsel, not related to\n16   counsel or the parties hereto, and not in any\n17   way interested in the outcome of this matter.\n18\n19\n20\n21\n22\n             NANCY LAPORTE\n23           Certified Court Reporter\n             State of Louisiana\n24\n25\n\n                                                                                     26 (Pages 98 to 99)\n               ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES\nDC 1-800-441-3376   MD 1-800-539-6398   VA 1-800-752-8979\n\n                                                                                           0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c\n\f        Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB         Document 33-10        Filed 06/21/2007      Page 28 of 52\n\n                                    Robert G.             Jones\n                                                                                                   Page 1\n\n          A           agree 66:16 67:19       85:16 86:12 96:19     24:18              91:16\nability 68:11 96:8      72:11,23 73:1,2,8   answered 46:13        ASSOCIATION         background 9:16\n  99:13                 86:5 94:11            72:19                 1:6                10:22 67:1\nable 12:2 22:12       agreed 4:3 55:11      anybody 46:22         assume 11:16        Bacon 39:10 41:17\n  30:21 67:17 77:6      58:4 70:25            81:2                assuming 25:8,9      42:13,14 46:9\nabove-mentioned       agreement 18:4        anymore 35:14           47:21 87:15       Bank 15:25 32:25\n  99:6                  23:6 24:5,7,17,20   anyway 81:7           assurance 76:25      79:6 81:1\nabsolute 20:3           25:3,8 26:4,12,19   appalled 88:1           77:2              banker 78:24 93:13\nAbsolutely 70:2         26:21 27:5,9 28:1   apparently 39:11      Atlantic 33:11       93:14\n  98:11                 28:15,16 29:3,6,6     90:19                 36:18 37:19 73:12 bankers 40:22\naccept 93:10            29:12,14 30:9,14    appear 32:17            81:21             banking 67:1,1\nacceptance 94:13        30:16 31:6,8,19     APPEARANCES           attached 23:24      banks 67:10,16\naccepting 78:3 94:1     35:3,7,11 55:9        1:13 2:1              61:25              69:1,9\naccomplish 67:5         76:3 83:2           appears 38:24         attachment 23:17    based 83:9\n  96:18               agreements 25:21        39:10,13            attitude 90:11,15   basically 66:23\naccounting 68:24        25:25 26:11 28:4    applicable 72:13      attorney 2:3,4 13:7 basis 84:3\n  69:14                 28:23 29:21 31:11     72:24 73:3            13:12 20:14       Bates 1:5 2:17,19\naccurate 12:9,14        35:21 58:2 83:9     application 36:17     attorneys 1:17,21    2:24 3:2,4,6 16:22\n  26:3 27:3,17,22     agrees 24:9           apply 71:8 73:10        1:24 13:10         17:11 23:21 38:23\n  31:13               ahead 7:13 70:19      appointed 12:16       attract 77:15        48:19 49:19 61:24\naccurately 50:1       AIG 12:5,9 14:1,11    appointment 30:5      attracting 78:14     62:1\nacronym 18:18           14:12,21,22 15:20     30:19               August 33:25 34:1   Bates-stamped\nACTION 1:3              28:10 52:5 54:11    appreciate 66:6         37:14,14 54:15     6:22\nactive 10:11            56:17 78:2 94:10    approached 92:21        55:5,6 79:21      Bathrus 1:3,18\nactual 34:22,25       AIG's 14:19           appropriate 14:18     author 14:16        Batts 93:6,15,15\nacumen 44:9           al 1:6                approval 78:1         automobile 27:1,14  Bay 15:24,24 16:3\naddition 56:17        Alan 80:7             approved 38:15        available 69:13      16:7 77:21,25\nadditional 77:16      Alexander 1:23        approximately         Avenue 1:20          78:12,23,25 79:5\naddress 6:8           allegations 19:25       65:2 80:12          aware 9:1 12:21      79:5,5,22\nadministering 4:23      20:7,21,21 84:2     April 1:11 5:5          20:25 25:1 30:4   beat 79:8\naffordable 69:20      alleged 19:16         area 45:25 65:19        35:9 55:20 59:2   began 9:11 64:25\naforementioned        alleges 11:22           66:12,23 92:22        61:7 86:23 90:1    87:7\n  4:5                 allow 18:5 19:17      areas 68:12             92:16 95:24       Beginning 36:10\nafterward 42:16       amended 2:18          arena 10:10           a.m 1:11            belief 83:6\nAgencies 10:4           16:18,22            asked 22:7 26:17                          believe 6:17 10:19\n                      America 67:10           30:20 32:9 34:3              B           16:16 17:5,9\nagency 10:25 11:12\nagent 17:25 18:5,12   American 40:4           36:14 41:23 54:22   B 5:23               21:22 22:24 24:22\n  19:18 55:13           52:4                  74:15 77:6 79:1     back 9:9 10:5 22:10  30:17 34:16 36:18\naggregate 86:18       amount 33:4 73:11     asking 25:12 32:5      22:12 31:2 33:4     37:6 39:8 40:6\naggregation 19:3,6      78:7 85:11            63:13 75:23          36:9 40:13 42:16    43:5 50:4,4 64:20\n  38:8,10,11 39:23    annual 41:7           ASLICK 14:20           45:17 58:19 61:19   73:13 87:10 96:10\n  72:14 86:19 88:2    answer 4:16 7:13      asset 40:6,11          66:7 67:24 68:1    believed 57:1 83:1\n  89:25                 20:4 29:8 31:4      assistance 81:20       69:18 70:16 72:8 believing 90:16\nago 20:2 60:22          35:19 63:8 68:21    associated 49:8        75:1 78:20 82:3    best 31:9 37:14\n                        70:21 75:20 85:2    Associates 23:10       82:14,15 84:22,24   99:13\n\n\n               ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES\nDC 1-800-441-3376   MD 1-800-539-6398   VA 1-800-752-8979\n\f        Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB         Document 33-10       Filed 06/21/2007      Page 29 of 52\n\n                                    Robert G.            Jones\n                                                                                                  Page 2\n\nBetty 47:5,13           47:19 57:7,9,15      78:24 79:17 81:16     81:21 99:1          comments 61:3\nbid 30:11               57:15 62:22 65:1     82:18,23 83:20,22   certificates 32:23    commercial 32:23\nBill 93:6,14,15         65:5,11 76:10        87:7,13,14 88:5,6     32:24                 32:24 33:5 37:11\nbillion 51:7,8          82:10 83:13,20       89:2,10,20,21       certification 4:12      67:10,16 69:1\nbinder 78:3             84:13 85:5,12        93:1 94:10,15,17    certified 2:10 4:21   commission 24:10\nbit 29:2 37:1 38:9      86:18 91:21 92:22    94:21 97:23 98:6      5:7 99:4,23           26:22 27:10 85:11\n  48:13 58:13           94:22 95:11,12,15    98:8                certify 99:6          commissions 26:8\nBob 2:20,25 3:2         96:4,8,22,24       CAM's 14:7 19:25      change 82:22            86:6 87:12\n  5:19 7:14 23:20     buying 76:18           20:13 24:16 25:10   changes 14:18         commitment 18:2\n  38:25 39:20 48:18                          33:12 39:22 55:8      68:23               commitments\n  67:13 74:2                    C            56:4,21 57:13       changing 72:2           83:19\nboss 45:3             call 22:8 37:16        85:14,24            changings 69:13       committed 58:5\nbothers 82:17           69:23,25 71:15     CAM/Fannie 92:8       characterization      common 24:6\nbottom 39:19 74:8       87:5,6,9           capacity 33:14          27:4,22               26:20 27:8 90:19\nBovis 50:15           called 11:13 15:12 capital 15:24 16:3      charge 80:10          companies 10:13\nbreach 35:2,7,10        22:15 40:6,11        39:12 50:14,16      charter 27:1,14         19:14 22:23 34:3\nbreached 18:3           71:3                 61:5 68:24 76:14      34:14,15,15 37:20     52:9 53:12 81:11\n  83:19               calling 75:6           77:16 78:23 79:5    Chuck 75:19,22,23       83:16 93:20\nbreak 35:23 37:2      calls 43:9           captive 23:1 27:2     Civil 1:3 4:7         company 7:18 10:9\nbreakfast 89:18       CAM 7:3,6,11,16        27:15,18 33:8       claimed 19:21           13:13 14:21 22:15\nBrian 1:15 5:22         7:23,24 8:2,5,6,12   36:20,20 47:23      clarify 36:13 97:21     22:22,24 23:25\nBrief 36:7 58:17        8:15,19,23 9:2,5     54:13,22 55:1,4     clause 30:23 76:1,8     24:8 34:24 36:18\n  61:17 91:14           9:13 10:18 14:6      58:25 73:3          clauses 77:9            47:23 52:2 54:12\nbring 56:16 88:18       14:14,16,24 15:4 carrier 93:18           clean 31:3              56:14 84:8\n  93:16,17              15:11,20 16:8,11 carriers 52:16          clear 32:2            compensate 17:16\nbringing 28:13          17:7,16,23,24        58:10 84:8,10       clients 53:10           17:23 24:9\nbroad 19:8,12 21:5      18:2,5,11 19:17    carry 77:16           close 16:1,8 37:13    complaint 2:18\n  35:10                 19:21 20:13,14     case 16:3,4             48:4,7 77:22          11:18,21 16:18,22\nbroker 9:13 24:5        23:5 24:1,3,5,7,9 cash 38:16             closed 11:25 79:20      17:6 19:16,25\n  51:18 76:17 82:9      24:11,13 25:1,20 cast 30:8,19              80:25 88:3            84:2\nbrokerage 7:18,19       26:14,21 27:5,9    casualty 10:9         clue 80:8             complete 22:20\n  9:17 23:12 24:20      28:2,22 29:3,5     categorized 71:2      CLVS 2:7              completely 8:24\n  25:8 26:11 29:21      30:6,11,14,20      Caucasian 64:11       Coast 11:13,15          23:10\n  35:21 57:21 65:13     31:6,15,22 32:10     64:13,16,19,23        22:12               concern 39:11\nbrokers 25:25           32:13 35:2,6,13    caused 70:5           Coastal 10:7,8        concerned 45:2\nbroker's 11:11          35:16 36:16,22     caveat 27:21          colleague 91:3        concluding 1:11\nbrought 15:5 20:18      37:5,12,25 43:16 CC-ing 2:25 38:25       collect 78:8          confer 91:3\n  26:13 28:11,19        44:9 53:7,12,14    cell 22:9             college 10:2,3        conference 37:16\n  34:14 93:12           54:8 55:12 56:1    century 80:13         COLUMBIA 1:1            40:23 41:1,7,8,17\nbuilding 8:23           57:1,8,16,18,22    CEO 97:24             combining 67:14         42:2 45:15 46:3,5\nbusiness 8:16 9:6       57:24 58:5 62:22 certain 33:10 69:7      come 47:6 54:22         46:7\n  10:1 11:15 14:11      64:21,22 65:5,7    Certainly 66:4        comfort 76:7 77:7     confirm 55:11\n  14:12,21 24:1,4,6     67:13 69:17 76:2     75:18               coming 31:19 57:7     conjunction 53:23\n  25:21 32:7 33:18      76:10,13,18 77:12 certificate 22:23      commencing 1:11       connection 6:15\n  39:22 43:17 44:9      77:14,23 78:7,13     33:12,16 73:11      comment 89:7,8          24:2 96:17\n\n\n               ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES\nDC 1-800-441-3376   MD 1-800-539-6398   VA 1-800-752-8979\n\f        Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB         Document 33-10        Filed 06/21/2007   Page 30 of 52\n\n                                    Robert G.             Jones\n                                                                                                 Page 3\n\nconsidering 61:2        80:13 83:4,5,24     credit 15:7 18:18  day-to-day 13:17        37:4,22 65:15,17\nconsummated             83:25 85:7,8          18:19,20 71:3,17 DC 1:20                 68:3 94:3,10,24\n  23:13 26:1 36:15      90:22 91:22,23        71:21 83:3 93:6  deal 26:13              98:3,5\ncontacts 69:18          94:2,6,15,22          93:11,12,13,15   dealing 68:15         developments\ncontained 19:25         99:13               credit-enhancem... death 21:16,24          75:12,15 76:21\ncontent 47:3          correspondence          69:25 70:5 71:22  79:8                 different 25:25\ncontents 26:18          26:9                  72:13 92:23 93:3 debacle 19:15           46:4 61:1 93:25\ncontinue 32:6         costs 77:24           CREF 40:23 41:7    December 16:17,17     difficulty 90:16\n  33:17               counsel 4:4 5:11        45:14 46:5,7      17:8                 dime 78:8\ncontinued 2:1 3:1       6:17,25 97:16       critical 79:25 80:3Defendant 1:21,24     direct 45:3 66:5\n  33:8                  99:15,16            Crump 56:16        Defendants 1:7        direction 13:18\ncontract 92:7 94:12   COUNSELOR 2:3           57:19,23 58:4,6,9Defendant's 2:16        54:17,19 55:6\n  94:14               couple 48:14 97:5       76:16,17 82:18   deficiency 40:6,12      56:12,18 79:18\ncontracts 92:1,11       97:21               current 8:11       Delegated 49:8          99:12\ncontrolled 25:5       course 87:16          customer 28:11     delivered 78:6        director 79:7\nconversation 21:24    court 1:1 2:10 4:21   customers 24:14     79:10                disagree 27:23\n  22:2 40:25 41:19      5:8,25 63:19 64:5     28:8 33:21 77:6  demise 16:7           disclosed 85:16\n  41:21 42:4,13,17      66:1,6,7 67:23      C.D 6:21           departed 60:9,11        96:3\n  42:19 46:8 52:5,6     68:1 70:16 78:20                       depending 61:3,4      discloses 96:3\n  60:7 62:21 87:24      82:3,15 84:24                D         deposition 1:8 2:21   discuss 19:24 44:8\n  88:19,21 89:19,24     99:4,23             D 1:5 2:14 74:2     4:5,17 5:2,3 20:17     52:15 55:16\nconversations 41:4    courthouse 89:5       Dance 47:5,13,16    25:16 33:10 60:24    discussed 20:20\n  42:5,9,22 43:2,6    cover 19:6,8          Daniels 1:15 5:21   90:6                   25:24 39:6 52:9\n  43:11 45:10,20      coverage 18:8          5:22 63:12,13,16 Depo-Vue 5:8             52:14 57:10 58:22\n  47:2,6,10,12          32:23 33:12,16,22    64:2,9 66:3,10    derivative 18:8       discussing 48:25\n  55:24 56:10,22        34:2 36:20 39:16     68:2 69:21 70:12 describe 11:3,9          50:3 60:7\n  59:18 60:4 62:24      49:23 51:14 53:1     70:20 71:14 72:10  18:23 26:17 91:24    discussion 22:4,6\n  63:1 87:17 95:24      53:13,17 54:21       72:18,22 73:9,18 described 28:1           40:14 41:15 50:11\nConway 88:8,22,25       60:21 61:3 65:16     73:25 74:6,13,19 designated 96:13         58:24 96:16\n  89:9,15,18            69:17 78:3 84:9      75:3 78:15 79:12 designed 18:25         discussions 40:15\ncopied 55:3           covering 19:14         81:23 82:7,24      19:8                   40:21 41:24 45:4\ncopy 16:25              39:12                84:21 85:3 86:13 determine 70:14          46:15 56:7,19\ncorporate 76:10       co-brokerage 23:6      86:21 87:4 88:14 devastating 77:12      disparaging 43:21\ncorporately 69:11       24:16 25:3 26:19     88:16 90:4 91:1,8 develop 12:18           44:3 47:16 60:1\ncorrect 7:3 10:20       26:21 27:9,25        91:18 92:13 96:6   13:21,22 69:16         63:2\n  16:12,13 18:14        28:3,15,23 29:6      96:25 97:13,18     93:18                DISTRICT 1:1,1\n  21:1 30:17 32:3       29:14 30:16 31:8    Danny 3:7 23:11    developed 11:24       document 16:21,24\n  41:14 42:20 43:5      35:3,7,11 53:12      24:19 25:24 39:20  12:8 14:9 33:15        17:1 24:15 38:23\n  47:14 50:17 56:8    co-brokers 53:8        40:3 52:5,6 75:9   58:10 72:12 82:21      39:2,3,5,5 48:22\n  57:20 58:7,8        Craig 19:20 61:2      date 21:17 35:15   developing 14:4,8       53:3 61:24 62:1,3\n  59:13 62:9,14,17      64:18 81:25 82:18   dated 2:19,23 3:2   36:19 98:7             62:4 76:12\n  62:18 64:14,24        83:23 85:9           23:17 29:25 48:18 development 9:9       documents 6:15,19\n  65:6 66:18,20,24    created 11:24 12:7     74:3               9:10,11 10:14          6:21,22 7:1,2 8:24\n  67:8 68:5 71:3,9      16:6                day 1:11 90:6       14:13 19:6 24:12       25:10 48:14 85:15\n  71:18 73:17 75:10   creation 12:17        days 9:10           33:20 34:8,21          87:14 89:5,16\n\n\n               ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES\nDC 1-800-441-3376   MD 1-800-539-6398   VA 1-800-752-8979\n\f        Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 33-10        Filed 06/21/2007      Page 31 of 52\n\n                                   Robert G.             Jones\n                                                                                                  Page 4\n\n 96:3                efforts 17:24         exactly 18:22 79:14     17:24 66:17 81:6     19:3,11,17,21\ndoing 8:16 34:20     Eichler-Fein 15:9       89:17               explain 79:23          20:15,18,22 21:13\n 65:5,5 80:17          21:12 93:7          EXAMINATION           exposure 38:20         22:25 23:1,1,2\ndollar 16:4          either 10:24 16:9       6:6 7:21 36:11      expressed 88:23        25:10 26:16 29:18\ndollars 85:19 86:2     21:16 23:8 25:3       58:21 61:21 63:12   extent 33:10 90:13     30:4,23 33:2,7,22\ndoor 54:11             32:19 39:12 45:13     64:2,9 66:10 68:2   Eye 1:23               34:5 37:3 38:7,12\nDowning 88:8,22        47:15 60:12 65:8      69:21 70:20 71:14   e-mail 2:19,24 3:2     38:15,17 39:9,23\n 88:25                 83:12 87:11 89:23     72:10,22 73:9,18      3:4,6 23:16,17,24    40:18 41:6,10\ndraft 15:14 26:10      93:4 96:3             75:3 78:15 79:12      38:24 39:19 48:17    44:23 45:7,14,17\ndrafts 14:15,15,17   elaborate 48:2          81:23 82:7,24         52:23 60:17,21,23    46:17,23,25 47:9\n 14:19 80:23,24        53:10                 85:3 86:21 87:4       62:7 74:2 75:8,16    53:11,18,23,25\n 94:7                elements 76:25          88:16 90:4 91:18      76:19 87:10          54:1,5,17,19,21\ndried 69:8           employed 10:4,12        92:13 96:6 97:20    e-mails 26:8 39:18     54:23 55:9,11,13\ndrum 47:19           employee 11:1         examined 6:4            42:10 45:12 55:3     55:18 56:8,20,21\nduly 6:4 99:7          44:23               excerpt 2:21 16:24      96:1                 56:25 57:2,8,11\nDUS 15:5,8 19:9      enabled 31:20           25:15                                      57:14,23,24 59:3\n 21:11 22:25 28:7    encompass 28:18       excerpts 2:17 17:3              F            60:10,11,23,25\n 33:20,21 34:2,9       51:9                exclusive 17:25       face 73:11             62:16,20 63:3,7\n 37:2,7 39:6,16      enhance 96:8,22         18:12 55:12,17      fact 19:10 22:9        65:1,3,7,7,12,14\n 41:18 47:20 48:13   enhancement 71:3        56:5,21 57:2,4,6      23:13 54:4 56:14     66:15 67:5 68:11\n 48:24 49:3,16,23      71:6,8,17 83:3        57:18 58:9 83:2       66:4 68:10,10        68:15 69:5,8,11\n 49:24 50:2,7        entailed 26:22          84:6,14               76:23 83:22 94:4     69:16 70:4 71:16\n 51:13 52:20 53:22     27:10 29:9 48:16    exclusively 58:4,6      96:1                 71:19 72:14 75:13\n 53:24,25 54:2,6       49:7                exclusivity 83:9,14   failing 18:4           76:3,6,11,22,24\n 58:23 65:4,6,8      enter 31:16 32:14     excuse 17:12          fair 30:13 31:4,10     77:4,5,10 78:4,6,9\n 71:9,16,22 81:17    entered 26:5 29:14    execution 68:8          51:20 52:18 67:3     78:25 79:7,10,20\n 93:8                  92:1,7,10             69:12 80:5,9,20       69:23                80:1,6,18 81:4,5,9\nD.C 1:17,24 24:1     entire 75:16 76:9       93:21               fall 29:19 79:18       81:15,17 82:10\n                     entities 14:3 18:6    exhibit 3:6 16:20     false 44:14 63:5       83:2,11,23 84:2,5\n          E            19:18,20              17:11 23:16 29:23   familiar 21:3,5        84:11 85:12 86:7\nE 2:14               entitled 16:21 85:6     38:22 48:17 49:19     22:14 23:10 38:2     90:20 91:21,25\nearlier 59:17,24     entity 25:5             52:22 61:23 62:6      44:19 59:9 60:16     92:6,10,14,21\n  74:10,12,15 82:25 equity 76:13 78:14       73:20                 60:16 81:24 82:8     93:2,9,15,17,19\n  95:4 98:3          Eric 81:20            Exhibits 2:15 3:1       82:17 86:17          94:5,10,16,21,25\nearly 10:6,15 11:14 escape 13:4            exit 31:25            family 48:11           95:1,18 96:9,15\n  15:10,23 21:12     Esq 1:23              expand 57:4 76:10     Fannie 1:19,21,25    far 34:17 45:1\n  31:5 41:13 60:18 Esquire 1:15,15,19      expanded 19:5           5:14,16 6:23       Farm 10:4,6\n  65:9,16 80:14        5:9                   51:18                 10:14 11:19 12:2 February 2:23\neffect 26:9 35:12,15 essentially 79:15     expense 17:24           12:10,11,12,14,15    29:25 30:13 31:5\n  56:10 77:11 87:22 estate 50:15 66:14     experience 9:20         12:22,25 13:10,22    31:5 32:1 93:4\nefficiency 67:15     et 1:6                  11:4,9 65:19          13:25,25 14:5,10 federal 1:6 4:6 89:5\n  80:4               event 26:22 27:10       66:12,22,25 67:2      14:25 15:5,8,17    fee 36:17\nefficient 68:8       everybody's 55:21     experiences 67:14       15:19,20,25 16:2 feel 85:1\nefficiently 68:12      55:22               expert 85:21,24         16:6,11,15 17:7    feelings 87:21\neffort 76:9 91:21    evidence 4:19         expertise 9:18          18:1,3,3,5,12 19:1 fees 36:21\n\n\n               ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES\nDC 1-800-441-3376   MD 1-800-539-6398   VA 1-800-752-8979\n\f        Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB         Document 33-10     Filed 06/21/2007      Page 32 of 52\n\n                                    Robert G.           Jones\n                                                                                                Page 5\n\nfile 89:11            formalities 4:9,11 giving 13:18            90:24 91:5 92:3   Hold 68:20 71:25\nfiled 16:11,15 17:7   formed 22:22       go 7:13 9:22 10:5       95:21 97:8        holds 38:17\n   20:14              forth 99:9           57:23 58:12 61:13   group 14:12 23:18   home 22:13\nfiles 87:7 89:2       forward 76:2,6       70:19 82:23 91:6      50:16 76:16       HomeStreet 50:14\nfiling 4:12 20:7        77:17 79:25        91:10               Groves 3:7 9:15     honestly 6:12\nfinally 22:8          foundation 70:18   goal 19:12              10:18,21 11:4     honoring 84:5\nfinancial 7:6,11,16   four 29:17         going 9:9 11:17         14:13 15:11 23:11 Hook 13:5,11\n  7:17,23,25 8:2,5    fourth 52:21 90:6    16:19 25:14 29:22     24:19 25:7,24     hotels 45:19\n  8:12,15,19,23 9:2   frame 29:19 37:9     32:2 36:5 38:21       26:10 29:20 35:20 housing 68:4,7\n  9:5 10:18 14:6,24     39:15 41:11,12     38:22 42:10 48:1      40:3,7 52:7,11,14   69:20\n  16:11 17:7 23:5       49:16 54:14 55:6   48:16 56:13 58:15     64:12 65:18,21    Hoyes 2:23 13:20\n  25:2 26:21 27:9     Freddie 66:14        58:19 60:20 61:15     74:2 75:9           29:24 30:21 31:1\n  28:2,22 29:3 30:6     69:11              61:22 67:23 68:21   guess 10:5 13:17,18   31:20,24 32:22\n  30:15 31:15,23      free 76:2            70:23 72:4 74:22      14:16 45:2 77:7     33:1 37:16 43:1\n  32:10,13 35:6,17    freedom 13:21,22     75:1 76:5 77:14     Gulfport 1:9 6:10     57:3,10 75:24\n  43:17 44:10 53:13   fresh 35:25          83:13 87:18,20,21     89:1,19             76:5 95:19,25\n  53:15 54:8 97:24    friend 48:10,10,11   89:10,22 91:12                          Huebscher 1:25\n  98:6,8              friends 47:4         92:24                         H           2:20 5:17 23:20\nfind 33:13 34:3       fulfilled 18:2     Goldfrank 1:23        H 2:25 39:1           38:3,5,6 40:14,16\n  78:16               full 6:8 17:19       5:15,16 63:24       halfway 17:15         40:24 41:1,24\nfinish 68:21          fully 6:12 18:24     64:7 73:22 74:4     handled 23:11         42:3,6,18,22 43:5\nfinished 86:11 97:7   fundamental 84:1     74:11 86:10         happen 32:2           43:8,11,16,22\nfirst 2:17 6:4 8:4    furnish 75:24      good 13:8 24:21       happened 89:17        44:2,6,8,14 46:9\n  9:11 10:2 11:25     furnished 60:22      43:1 47:4 48:10     happy 89:9            55:7 59:19,25\n  15:5,6,16,21        further 9:22 32:5    80:20 81:22         hard 67:9             60:13 68:14 86:19\n  16:18,21,22,23        63:11 97:3       gotten 51:3 89:16     Harley 1:15 5:22    hundred 16:4\n  18:8 19:10,11,15    future 50:25 83:17 Grace 1:25 2:20         63:13 86:11 90:24 Hunter 2:2 5:18,19\n  21:10,11 29:14                           5:17 23:19 38:3,6   Hartsfield 2:20,25    6:24 7:7 97:4,10\n  33:6,11 36:18                G           41:1 43:4,8 45:13     23:20 39:1          97:15,16,19,20\n  37:19 39:4,13,14    G 1:8 2:4 5:3 6:3    46:8 55:7 68:14     Harvey 2:20 23:20     98:12\n  49:20 50:21 51:11   Gayle 6:9            86:19               Hattiesburg 2:4     Hurricane 8:18,25\n  52:6 65:3 71:4,19   general 10:25      Great 10:6            heading 38:7          9:3 21:18,25\n  73:12 75:17 80:25     11:12 28:18 67:4 Green 80:7            hear 17:20 35:5\n  81:21 82:18 92:20     69:14 71:2 96:20 Greenwald 80:7          59:23 63:16,23              I\n  93:1 99:7           generally 68:13    Griffin 13:8 33:23      64:1,1 82:2 88:11 idea 9:4 80:9\nfirst-loss 19:7       generated 89:4     Griffith 1:19 5:13      96:16             ideas 80:1\n  38:20               GenRe 56:16 57:16    5:14 6:6 7:21       heard 67:25 70:10 identified 52:25\nfive 39:14 91:6       GenStar 56:16        36:2,11 58:11,21    held 5:4 88:19        94:17\nfocus 48:14             57:15,19 58:5      61:12,21 63:10      help 32:8           identify 52:19,24\nfolks 17:19           getting 78:1         65:25 67:22 68:19   helping 20:16       impact 8:19,22\nfollowing 11:22       give 20:3,12 21:17   70:7,17 71:10,24    Hemphill 2:3        important 69:15\n  29:17 84:20           37:9 54:17 61:22   72:16 73:5,14       hereinabove 99:9      96:10\nfollows 6:5             76:24 95:8         74:17 77:18 81:12   hereto 4:4 99:16    improve 67:14\nform 4:15 24:10       given 2:22 13:20     82:13 84:17 86:25   higher 81:5           68:11\n  31:21 80:16           25:16              88:12 89:12 90:23   hit 21:18           inaccurate 24:24\n\n\n               ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES\nDC 1-800-441-3376   MD 1-800-539-6398   VA 1-800-752-8979\n\f        Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB         Document 33-10         Filed 06/21/2007      Page 33 of 52\n\n                                    Robert G.              Jones\n                                                                                                    Page 6\n\ninclude 19:2 27:19    insurer 12:4          job 10:2               kind 17:15 32:7     lawsuit 16:11,15\nincluded 61:25        insurers 51:25        jog 50:11                47:9 77:9           20:19 21:1 89:21\nincluding 23:19       insuring 12:4 26:25   jogged 41:16           knew 38:7 44:24       89:22\nincoming 68:7           27:13 41:18 57:8    John 1:5 81:20           82:19             lawyers 13:3,4\nincorporated 7:12       71:4                  90:24                know 20:4,23 21:6     14:11,19,20\n  7:17 8:6 98:6       integral 94:24        join 76:13               22:20,21 23:14    lay 22:22 38:19\nincurred 77:24        interest 24:4 40:5    joined 32:11             25:23 26:1,6,9      49:23 53:22 67:16\nindicated 5:6 30:22     51:13 76:18         joint 26:18 31:17        30:24 35:10,13,18 laying 49:7,21 67:8\n  49:6 76:18          interested 99:17        32:11,14 96:4          43:3,6,8 52:14,17 laymen's 84:3\nindicates 24:7 51:6   interface 24:14       Jonathan 1:19 5:14       55:2 56:9 59:6,22 lead 12:13\nindication 24:21      intermediary 78:25    Jones 1:9 2:4,17,19      60:19 87:3,18,20  learn 88:1\nindividual 29:11      interrogatory           2:20,21,22,23,24       94:12 95:5 96:2   learned 80:21\n  32:17                 26:16,17 28:2         2:25 3:2,2,4,7 5:3     96:12,14,14       Lease 50:15\nindustry 10:22          49:4,15               5:20 6:3,7,9,14      knowledge 31:9      leaves 78:9\n  11:10               introduce 5:11          7:5,10,10,22           44:11 57:9 66:9   leaving 29:18 30:22\ninformation 89:6        14:24                 11:17 12:6 13:24       81:1,19 82:20       56:23,25 57:11\ninitially 96:23       introduced 34:15        15:18 16:10,19,20      90:19 92:6          75:13 76:22 77:9\ninitials 95:5           82:18                 17:2 18:9,10         known 21:8 68:13    Lederer 1:15 5:22\ninner-city 67:9       introduction 21:11      19:16 21:3 22:14       69:2,7,12         Lee 30:10\n  68:6                  65:14                 23:16,20 25:15,16                        left 30:4 40:18 41:5\ninsurance 7:18 9:6    investment 78:24        26:2 29:13,22,23              L            41:10 43:4 45:7,8\n  9:13,16,20 10:1,4     93:14                 35:23 36:12 38:2     L 1:19 4:1            45:11,14,17 46:17\n  10:9,10,12,13,22    Investments 50:15       38:21,22,25 39:20    label 38:23           46:25 56:20 59:4\n  11:1,5,9,13 15:13   involve 50:18           48:17,18,21 54:3     labeled 49:20 61:24   62:16,19 63:3,7\n  15:19 18:2,7,13     involved 12:22          58:22 59:24 61:22      62:1                76:5 81:9,15\n  18:16,19,21 19:2      13:10,15,17 14:3      61:23 62:6,11        language 31:11        94:25 95:1 96:15\n  19:3,14,19,22         14:13,22 15:3,4,6     63:14,17 64:3        Laporte 2:9 4:21      97:23\n  24:6,8 26:23 27:2     34:16 37:25 38:1      66:5,22 67:13,25       5:9 99:4,22       legal 5:7 56:3\n  27:11,15 33:9,13      45:12,20 51:4,22      68:21 70:14 72:11    large 51:2          Lend 50:14\n  34:3,6 36:20          51:23 52:1 54:24      74:2 75:4 79:13      late 60:18 65:8     lender 15:5,8 21:11\n  38:19 40:4,12         55:24 59:1 70:4       91:19 97:1,12,17       88:22               53:25 54:6 71:22\n  41:2 49:22 52:2,9     77:1                  97:23                law 1:9 2:3 4:8     lenders 39:16\n  52:16 53:1,11,13    involvement 13:25     Judge 1:5              Lawch 1:25 5:17       49:17,23 50:7,8\n  53:17 54:23 55:1      78:22 79:24         July 30:5 34:1           13:14 16:5 44:20    50:13,19,22 51:5\n  55:14 56:14 57:25   involves 49:16          56:25 79:21,21         44:22 45:5,11       51:13,19,22 52:20\n  58:10,25 65:16      involving 37:3 39:7   June 8:10 33:25          46:15 55:25 56:1    52:20,24 53:22,24\n  66:23 67:2,6          48:13 57:15 58:23     56:24 60:18            56:18 60:5,12       54:5 57:6 65:4,6,8\n  69:18,24 70:6         65:14 69:24 75:12                            62:13,21 63:1,6     93:8\n  71:1,7 73:4 80:6      76:21                     K                  68:13 69:1,7 78:2 lender's 54:2\n  80:20,22,24 81:11   issue 67:21 68:12  Karl 2:7 5:7                78:11,17 79:17    letter 2:23 23:23\n  82:19,21 83:3,15      87:8 92:15       Katrina 8:19,25             80:9 83:10,12,17    24:24 29:24 30:3\n  84:7,8,9,9 93:18                        9:3 21:18,25 22:3          83:19 86:20 90:17   30:21,25 31:12\n  93:19                        J         keep 76:9                   94:17               77:7\ninsure 18:25 38:19    January 2:22 25:17 Ken 39:10 41:17           Lawch's 56:12 61:3 let's 61:13 70:14\ninsured 86:20         jargon 94:17        42:13 46:9               Lawrence 79:6       level 39:12 71:5,5\n\n\n               ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES\nDC 1-800-441-3376   MD 1-800-539-6398   VA 1-800-752-8979\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB         Document 33-10       Filed 06/21/2007     Page 34 of 52\n\n                                     Robert G.            Jones\n                                                                                                  Page 7\n\n   76:7 81:5 86:6      lost 22:9              62:17,20 63:3,7      77:5,13 78:8,17     mentioned 10:17\nlevels 19:1,9          lot 77:24,24 80:21     65:1,4,7,7,12,14     79:1,24 80:12        12:19,24 34:19\nlicense 11:12 29:10    Lots 13:3              66:15 67:5 68:11     84:13 85:13 86:5     42:1 57:12 78:11\n   29:10               Lou 2:23 13:19         68:15 69:5,11,16     87:18,18 88:19      merely 12:3\nlicensed 23:25           29:24 30:21 37:16    70:4 71:16,19        89:9 92:2 93:5,11   merger 67:5 71:1\nlife 10:10               43:1 57:3 75:24      75:13 76:3,6,11      94:20,23 95:19,25   met 21:10 90:3\nlight 75:11              95:19,25             76:22 77:4,5,10      96:5,12,15,18        93:5\nline 25:18             loudly 59:23           78:4,6,9,25 79:8     98:4                Metropolitan\nlines 11:11 14:21      Louisiana 1:10         79:11,20 80:1,6     Marialice's 67:20     32:25 33:5 37:13\n   29:9,10               2:10 4:23 5:5        80:18 81:4,5,9,16    79:18 90:6,9         79:19 80:25\nlisted 52:21             99:5,23              81:17 82:10 83:2    mark 38:22 48:17     mezzanine 39:12\nlitigation 6:23 7:3    low 68:6               83:11,23 84:3,5     marked 16:20          53:1 71:5\n   85:15 87:7,12,14    low-income 68:4        84:11 85:12 86:7     29:23 61:23 73:20   mid 41:13\n   88:6 89:2,10,22                            90:20 91:21 92:1     75:5                middle 79:10\nlittle 18:23 29:2              M              92:6,8,10,14,21     market 65:20         mid-city 68:6\n   37:1 38:9 48:12     M 2:2                  93:2,9,15,17,19      66:19 69:25 71:2    milestone 79:20\n   58:13               Mac 66:15 69:11        94:5,10,16,21,25    marketing 31:22      million 16:4 85:19\nLLC 22:16,19           Mae 1:19,21,25         95:2,18 96:9,15      57:5 77:5 79:7       86:2\n   24:18 25:4 28:6      5:14,16 6:23         Mae's 13:25 19:3     marketplace 68:9     minority 95:10,12\n   29:4 31:7,16         10:14 11:19 12:2      38:7 69:8 72:14      69:4,19             minutes 91:6\n   34:24 35:4,8         12:10,11,12,14,15    Magazine 1:10 5:4    marking 23:15        Mississippi 1:9 2:4\n   40:17 42:1,7,24      12:22,25 13:10,23    main 45:19            25:15                6:10 90:18\n   43:13,19,24 44:4     13:25 14:5,10,25     major 66:17          matter 6:16 99:17    Mitigation 22:15\n   44:16 45:6 46:16     15:5,8,17,19,20      majority 51:9        MBS 39:24 90:2        22:19,21 23:4,7,8\n   46:24 53:7 62:14     15:25 16:2,7,12      make-up 22:20        MBW 74:8              24:17 25:4 27:4\nLLP 1:22                16:15 17:8 18:1,3    making 55:4 60:1     McGlinchey 1:10       28:5,21,24 29:4\nloan 34:15 81:3,6       18:3,5,12 19:1,11     80:3 93:25          MCRI 18:1,7,13,15     31:7,16 32:10,20\nloans 27:1,1,14,14      19:17,21 20:15,18    Mari 43:2             19:19,22 38:18       34:24 35:3,8\n   33:5 38:12,13,14     20:22 21:13 22:25    Marialice 1:3,18      40:8 55:14 57:15     36:16,22 37:6\n   38:16,17 48:13       23:1,2,3 25:10        2:19,23 5:23         58:4,6 94:22         39:7 40:17 41:25\n   58:23 68:12 77:25    26:16 29:18 30:5      13:20,21 15:25      mean 24:11 40:1       42:7,23 43:12,18\n   81:3                 30:23 32:19 33:2      16:2 21:4 23:9,12    70:3 75:14 85:4      43:23 44:4,15\nlobby 45:19             33:7,22 34:5 37:3     23:18 24:18 25:4     89:7                 45:6 46:16,24\nlocate 21:19 53:17      37:8,17 38:12,15      28:23 29:24 30:15   means 27:17 39:25     53:7,19 60:5\nlocates 24:7            38:17 39:9,23         30:20 32:14 33:15    51:16                62:14\nlong 9:5,7 20:2         40:18 41:6,10         37:12 39:8 40:16    meeting 15:7 42:2    mod 68:7\n   21:8 33:17 60:22     44:23 45:7,14,17      41:5,10,25 42:6      65:3                modifying 40:8\n   87:24                46:17,23,25 47:9      42:13,15,23 43:4    member 64:13,16      months 15:24\nlonger 69:12 90:25      53:11,18,24,25        43:7,12 45:3,5,13    64:19 93:12          29:17,17 30:7\nlook 25:17 39:2         54:1,5,17,19,21       45:15 46:6,7,15     members 10:18         77:23\n   50:10 62:2           54:23 55:9,11,13      46:23 47:4,7,19      64:22               Moore 30:10\nlooking 34:1 40:7       55:18 56:8,20,21      48:10 50:22 55:24   memo 74:1            morning 89:18\nlooks 39:18             56:25 57:2,8,11       56:7 62:13 68:16    memory 13:8 50:9     mortgage 1:6 7:19\nloss 12:3,4 18:8        57:14,23,24 59:3      71:20 73:12 75:13    50:12 88:18          9:16 13:6,12\n   19:10,15 39:13       60:10,11,23,25        75:23,25 76:21      memory's 42:25        22:23 32:25 33:4\n\n\n               ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES\nDC 1-800-441-3376   MD 1-800-539-6398   VA 1-800-752-8979\n\f        Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 33-10       Filed 06/21/2007      Page 35 of 52\n\n                                   Robert G.            Jones\n                                                                                                  Page 8\n\n 40:22 41:2 50:16    Ness 1:16            occurred 40:21         1:22                 permission 32:22\n 65:13,15,20 66:25   never 25:11 92:7,8     42:9 47:10 79:14                            33:1\n 67:1,6 69:24 71:1    92:9,11               79:15                       P             person 12:13,16,20\n 93:13               new 1:10 5:4 9:1     offer 30:12 94:13     P 4:1                   14:14 44:25 63:18\nmortgages 27:20       56:13 93:14         offered 30:5          package 77:14           64:4 80:5\n 67:7,17 69:10       Newman 2:20          offering 92:2         pads 56:3             personal 78:22\n 78:5 79:10           23:19 43:2,3,7      offhand 59:16         page 16:21,23           99:11\nmortgage-backed       47:1,3,13,15 55:7   offices 1:9 47:9        17:11 49:19 51:11   perspective 12:10\n 11:25               Noble 3:3 48:19      officiated 4:23         52:22                 34:6 69:16 77:3\nmother 21:17,24       51:21               OFHEO 61:4            paid 16:9             phone 17:19 22:9\nMOU 83:12,15,16      non-compete 30:23    Oh 95:1               pair 54:4             picked 88:5\n 92:8                 76:1,8,24 77:9      okay 22:7 44:1 62:5   Palmer 1:9 6:9        picture 41:8\nMOUs 55:19,20        non-Fannie 32:18     Once 55:18            paragraph 11:18       place 1:9 6:10\n 56:13 83:10,17       37:8,17             ones 51:2 52:15         11:21 17:15 23:23     36:24 41:4\nmove 76:2,6          North 40:4 52:4        59:9,11               30:2 50:10 51:11    Plaintiff 1:4,17\nmoving 73:19         Nos 2:19 3:2,4       open 54:11 69:18        52:21                 11:24\n 79:25               note 72:1            operation 8:24        Parish 4:22           Plaintiff's 3:5 75:5\nmulti-family 7:19    notes 55:23 56:1,2   opinion 55:22         part 4:18 28:14,17    players 12:12\n 13:6 18:17,18,20    November 90:7          56:12 80:3 81:7,8     29:12 31:18 33:9    plays 24:11\n 38:14 44:25 65:13   number 11:1 12:11      82:20 83:8,18,21      41:13 60:24 66:17   please 5:11,25 6:8\n 65:15 66:14 81:4     14:23 16:22 26:10   opinions 80:16          77:14 85:13 94:9      17:22 23:23 42:15\nmute 91:2             74:14,18 88:2       opportunities 30:6      94:20,24 95:18        62:3 66:4 70:14\nMWOB 31:21,21        numbered 17:12         30:19                 96:11                 70:22 75:21 79:23\n 57:12 95:3,10,13    numbers 23:21        opportunity 52:25     partially 74:9        PLLC 1:10 2:3\n 95:20 96:13,17,24    48:19 73:21 89:3      81:10               particular 33:14      point 8:1 12:16,19\nMWOB-owned           number-two 44:25     opposed 12:3 28:24      51:22 53:16 67:21     14:14 15:2 16:10\n 96:4                NW 1:20,23           order 17:16,21,23       69:2 82:19            20:1 26:2 51:3,14\nMYERS 1:22           N.W 1:16             organization 45:1     parties 4:4 99:16       80:5 84:12 85:4\n                                          original 46:11        partner 76:14         policies 33:14\n         N                   O              60:23 79:25           78:14 94:16,18        81:18,21\nN 2:14 4:1           O 4:1                Orleans 1:10 4:22     partnership 94:19     policy 15:7,14,16\nname 5:6 6:8 10:8    oath 4:24              5:4                   94:21                 33:15 36:20 40:9\nnames 13:4           Objection 70:8,18    other's 24:4          party 12:13 13:19       40:11 65:16 71:7\nNancy 2:9 4:21 5:9     71:11 72:17,17     Ott 19:20 61:2          14:9 43:9 49:14       71:21 93:6,12,13\n 99:4,22               73:6,15 77:19        64:18 81:25 82:18     83:23                 93:16,19 94:8\nNATIONAL 1:6           81:13 84:18 87:1     83:23 85:9          passion 67:20         pools 26:25 27:13\nNationwide 11:1        89:13 92:4 95:22   Ott's 82:9            Paul 13:5,11            70:6\n 15:12               objections 4:14      outcome 99:17         pay 28:12             portfolio 28:8\nnature 65:10         objective 67:12      outside 14:5,10       paying 26:22 27:10      32:25 33:7 38:18\nneed 78:13           obligation 49:24       33:7                pen-and-ink 14:18       49:25 77:22 78:2\nneeded 26:23 27:11   observe 81:10        overall 29:12         people 14:11,22,23    portfolios 34:2\n 77:15               observed 91:25       owned 66:14 95:15       15:7 23:19 45:21      53:23 69:5\nnegotiated 72:24     obvious 45:21        ownership 24:3          68:14 71:21 93:7    possibility 50:25\nnegotiating 57:3     obviously 77:12        30:6                percent 39:14         possible 88:9\nnegotiations 30:8    occasion 21:21       O'MELVENY             period 78:10          potential 20:21\n\n\n               ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES\nDC 1-800-441-3376   MD 1-800-539-6398   VA 1-800-752-8979\n\f        Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 33-10        Filed 06/21/2007        Page 36 of 52\n\n                                   Robert G.             Jones\n                                                                                                    Page 9\n\n 21:1                product 9:8,10,11       27:12,13 28:9       quote 26:20 79:4      receive 6:14 87:6\npractically 13:4      10:14 12:17 13:22      59:3 92:15 94:5                           received 85:11 86:7\npreliminary 50:21     14:12 15:16 16:6     proposing 71:16                R            receiving 63:15\npresence 71:20        19:6 33:19 34:7        76:11 92:21 95:19   race 64:6,10,13,16    reception 45:25\npresent 41:21         34:20 37:4,22        prove 83:6              64:19,23            recess 36:7 58:17\n 42:18 43:14 90:5     38:19 80:6 82:20     provide 33:3 53:1     raise 76:14             61:17 91:14\npresentation 55:4     82:21 83:4 84:14     pulled 79:22          raising 87:8          recognize 17:1\npresident 8:2,5,9     92:16 94:3,6,9       purchase 30:11        ranged 26:25 27:13      48:21\n 35:16 44:24 97:24    98:3,5,7               33:3                reach 30:9            recollection 24:16\npressure 83:11       products 11:23        purchased 38:12       reached 31:12           25:14 37:15 53:4\npretty 14:13 22:2     12:8 14:1,4,8,25       38:16 76:13         read 11:17 17:14      record 6:8 7:9\n 23:13 24:21          69:23 70:1 72:12     purpose 36:19           17:18 23:22 25:19     25:19 30:1 36:3,5\nprevious 62:8 68:1    92:2 93:3              76:19                 26:15 29:10 30:2      36:9,13 58:12,15\n 70:16 78:20 82:3    professional 48:2,3   purposes 4:7            49:18,20 67:24        58:19 61:13,15,19\n 84:24                48:4,7,11            pursue 33:2 60:20       75:16 82:14 84:22     63:17 72:4,6,8\npreviously 39:6      program 19:4          pursuing 33:21        reading 4:9             74:22,24 75:1\n 62:12                22:25 23:1 24:12       39:16 54:21 60:25   reads 39:20 51:12       85:11 91:12,16\nprimary 13:12         34:15 38:8,10,11       77:4 85:12            66:7 68:1 70:16     Red 50:15\nprincipals 9:15       40:8 47:21 49:9      pursuit 54:4            78:20 82:3,15       redneck 90:18\n 30:8,20              71:16 72:14,25       put 29:19 67:17         84:24               reduced 83:15\nprior 10:25 15:10     73:4,11 77:16          79:3 80:10 91:2     ready 91:10           refer 86:3\n 20:7,9,10,18 37:1    81:4,16 95:12        p.m 1:12              real 50:15 66:13      referred 74:9,14\n 57:10 65:12 66:7    programs 22:25                              realized 77:13          90:17\n 82:15                41:2 70:4 71:9                Q            Really 63:9           referring 27:18\nprobably 11:6,14      81:6                 qualifications 9:13   reason 6:11 16:5        38:14 51:18 62:7\n 13:11 15:10 33:20   project 12:23 24:8     11:4 82:9              24:22 27:23 30:24     75:15,22 76:20,23\n 41:11 47:20 51:8     24:13 34:4,9         qualified 85:1          35:18 45:22 84:12   reflect 48:24 50:1\n 54:15 74:2 81:19    projects 32:19 34:8   quality 80:17,19        95:18               reflected 56:1,15\n 85:14 86:8,16        37:4                  81:22                Reasonable 48:9       refresh 24:15 25:13\n 87:25               promised 31:24        question 4:15 29:1    reasonably 12:14        53:3 88:18\nproblem 61:11         84:7                  29:5 31:3,4 39:4       27:16 85:23         refused 19:17\n 87:19               properties 7:20        41:22 43:25 46:12    rebuffed 30:12          45:18 78:12,17\nproblems 59:21        68:6                  46:13,14 49:6        recall 16:14 20:5,6     79:3 83:17\nProcedure 4:7        property 10:9          60:6 63:8,9 65:24      20:11 21:23 29:13   refusing 18:4\nprocess 15:3 56:23    66:20                 66:7 68:1 70:10        34:25 36:23 40:8    regard 90:10\n 78:5,9 91:25        proposal 39:6          70:13,16,22 71:13      41:3 42:8,21        regarded 90:21\n 93:24 94:4 96:17     48:13,15,25 49:3      74:15 75:20 78:19      43:15,20,21 44:5    regarding 21:24\nprocesses 11:23       49:6,7,11 50:2,2      78:20 82:2,3,12        44:12,13,17 46:2      45:5 58:25 59:19\n 12:8 14:1,4,8,25     50:18,23 51:4,21      82:14,15 84:22,24      46:18,19 47:18      reinsurance 27:2\nprocure 19:22         52:1,10,18 53:6       85:2,17 88:11,13       50:8 59:12,14,18      27:15,18\nprocurement 18:1      53:16,20 54:9,23      92:25                  59:25 60:3,7        related 12:8 14:1\n 18:7,12 19:19        55:1 58:23 71:19     questions 11:19         62:12,21,23,25        47:20 50:24 99:15\n 55:13                93:2,10,16,25         63:14 66:5 74:9        63:4,5 87:9 88:17   relates 39:5\nproduced 7:2,4        94:1,8,12             91:4 97:3,5,11         88:21 89:17 90:9    relationship 7:23\n 25:10               proposals 26:24,25    quick 35:22             96:20                 8:12 39:22,23\n\n\n               ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES\nDC 1-800-441-3376   MD 1-800-539-6398   VA 1-800-752-8979\n\f        Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 33-10        Filed 06/21/2007     Page 37 of 52\n\n                                     Robert G.             Jones\n                                                                                                  Page 10\n\n  47:25 48:3,5,8      return 46:11             33:13 53:15,20     seller/servicers      signal 22:9\n  55:17 56:21 57:19   review 87:7            Ross 90:10             38:13,15            signed 26:4 78:3\nremarks 43:22         reviews 39:3 62:4      rule 42:10           send 14:19            significant 33:4\n  44:3 47:16 60:1     re-call 91:9           Rules 4:6            sent 37:24 73:23      signing 4:10\n  63:2                Rhoda 2:19 23:19       Rumsey 9:15 10:19      91:20               similar 88:23\nremember 33:23          43:1,3,6 47:1,3,13     11:8 64:15 66:11   sentence 17:14        simple 26:20 27:8\n  41:6 42:11 45:15      55:7                   75:23 76:6           49:21 50:6 51:12      94:12,12\n  79:14 90:14         Richard 1:25 5:17      Rumsey's 77:3          51:16               sitting 52:13 59:7\nREO 66:13,14            13:14 44:19 45:10                         sentences 17:19       small 67:16 81:3,3\nrepeat 27:6 41:22       45:13,16,17 46:8               S            40:1                  81:6\n  43:25 63:25 65:23     55:25 56:1 68:13     S 4:1                sentiments 88:23      sold 69:5\n  66:2 70:23 88:13      78:2,16 79:1,17      Sarah 1:23 5:16      separate 28:15        sole 17:25 18:11\n  92:24                 80:9 83:10 86:20     save 4:14              29:5 39:22 40:9       55:12\nrepeated 78:19          90:10 94:17          Savings 15:24 79:6     40:10               solely 11:24 12:7\nreported 2:8 43:4     right 74:7 75:9          81:1               September 55:6        solely-owned 96:24\n  68:25 99:10           79:19 84:16 92:16    saw 45:24 47:6,7       74:3                somewhat 60:16\nreporter 2:10 4:21      97:6                   81:22              serious 77:15         sorry 48:6 59:20\n  5:9,25 63:19 64:5   risk 12:3 18:8,19      saying 25:12 65:21 serve 18:5 19:17          63:20 86:14 97:14\n  66:2,6,7 67:24        18:21 19:1,7,9       says 79:7 93:16      services 7:6,12,16    sort 74:8 84:3\n  68:1 70:16 78:20      22:15,18,21,22       school 27:1,14         7:17,23,25 8:2,5      88:18\n  82:3,15 84:24         23:3,6,8 24:17       schools 34:16          8:12,15,20,23 9:2   sought 4:18\n  99:5,23               25:3 27:4,19 28:5    Schwartz 79:6          9:6 17:7 23:5       South 11:13,15\nREPORTER'S              28:12,20,24 29:4     scope 26:18            25:2 28:3 29:3      speak 45:18 59:23\n  99:1                  31:7,16 32:10,19     Scottsdale 15:13,13    30:7,15 31:15,23      69:6\nReporting 5:10          34:24 35:3,7         screen 5:6             32:10,13 35:6       speaking 62:12\nreports 85:21,25        36:16,21 37:5        sealing 4:11           43:17 53:13,15        97:14 98:2\n  86:4                  38:20 39:7 40:17     second 15:22 30:2      97:24 98:6,9        specialist 5:8\nrepresentative 7:11     41:18,25 42:6,23       51:11,12 68:20     Servicing 49:9        specific 42:8,11,12\nrepresented 12:11       43:12,18,23 44:3       71:25 90:25        set 66:20 95:20         42:22 50:19,23\nrepresenting 5:19       44:15 45:5 46:16     secondary 65:20        99:9                  52:2,19 56:9\n  5:23 7:10 53:21       46:23 49:21,24         66:19 69:24 71:1 Seth 2:2 5:19 97:16       83:15\nrequest 92:15           53:2,7,19,22 54:1      79:7               setup 23:12           specifically 4:10,12\nrequested 33:6          54:2 60:4 62:14      seconds 91:7         seven 16:3              79:1 92:9,18\nreserved 4:17           67:9 71:5,6          secure 91:21         shareholders 64:22    spent 77:23 78:7\nrespect 11:5 24:2     risks 49:8             secured 26:23        sheet 15:15 37:24     split 24:10 26:7,13\nresponding 39:18      risk-based 39:11         27:11              shorthand 28:5          36:21\nresponse 26:16,19       61:4,5 68:24         secure-type 67:6       99:11               spoke 21:14 89:16\n  49:5                RMS 23:25 24:1,3       securities 12:1 13:9 shortly 21:18 29:16   spoken 21:20\nresponses 28:2          24:5,8,9,13,14         67:18              show 16:19 23:15      Stafford 1:10\n  49:5                  28:4,4 30:10,15      see 66:1 87:19         25:14 29:22 38:21   stages 65:17\nresponsible 35:20       33:18 41:20 49:22      89:10                48:16               stand 95:6\n  53:25                 60:4                 seek 65:1            sic 13:8              standards 69:14\nresponsive 6:20       Robert 1:8 2:4,22      seeking 49:22        side 9:17,21 10:12    standing 41:8\nresponsiveness          3:6 5:3 6:3,9        seen 25:11 55:23       14:14 57:25 80:22   stands 18:17\n  4:16                role 14:7 24:12        sell 69:10           sign 83:12,13         start 9:24\n\n\n               ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES\nDC 1-800-441-3376   MD 1-800-539-6398   VA 1-800-752-8979\n\f        Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB         Document 33-10        Filed 06/21/2007       Page 38 of 52\n\n                                     Robert G.            Jones\n                                                                                                   Page 11\n\nstarted 7:8 10:13     structuring 78:1        47:21 48:12            55:21,22 56:11      told 60:17 62:22\n  40:14 79:16,17      subject 67:4          talks 50:6               57:1 58:1 60:24     top 38:24 39:17,19\nstarting 17:15,21     submitting 51:21      tanked 66:21             61:9 67:25 68:20    touch 42:15\n  25:18               subordinates 79:4     tapes 72:2               69:22 74:8,12,15    touched 58:24\nstate 2:10 4:22 6:7   subpoena 6:15,20      technical 59:21          77:21 81:2 85:14    tranche 19:1,7\n  10:3,6 99:5,23      subsequent 55:20        61:11                  86:1,16 87:23         27:19 28:12 33:21\nstated 83:1           subsidiary 15:12      technically 61:11        88:3 89:15 93:7       34:2 53:2\nstatement 7:9 12:7    substantial 78:7      telephone 1:14           93:20 96:22 97:9    tranches 19:10\n  20:13 24:23 27:17   success 19:14           63:12 87:6,9        thinking 42:25         transaction 12:1,9\n  30:18 31:14         sued 77:4 83:22,23    tell 7:5 8:4,17,18       56:11 59:5 96:21      14:2 16:8 36:24\nstatements 44:14      suggested 88:7          9:7,12,19 10:7,21   third 23:23 49:19        37:2,8,11,17,19\n  63:6                suit 20:8,14            11:14 13:1 16:24    third-party 12:4         37:21 49:10 58:1\nStates 1:1 12:1       Suite 1:16              18:15 22:18 38:9    thought 45:23 76:4       67:15 69:3 78:13\nstay 79:2,2           suitor 76:14,15         39:25 41:9 43:16       85:5 90:2             78:18 79:3,4,9,19\nstayed 10:11          summer 86:23,24         47:2 51:15,25       three 12:18 29:17        80:8,25\nstep 8:8 91:7           88:19,22              53:14 54:25 85:10      39:16 49:23 50:6    transactions 9:2\nStephen 3:2 48:19     supervision 99:12       95:9                   50:13,21,24 51:2      15:19 33:20 34:23\nstepped 35:16         supply 76:23          ten 15:23 77:23          51:22,23 52:20        35:1 36:15 37:9\nStiegman 2:7 5:7      supposed 31:19        ten-page 56:2            53:21,24 85:19        69:20 72:25 80:3\nstipulated 4:3        sure 17:17 23:13      term 15:15 21:5          91:4 93:23            82:23 88:2 89:25\nstockholder 7:24        26:3,12 27:7 31:3     37:24 95:3          thrift 19:15 68:25     transcribed 99:11\n  8:13                  34:17 35:25 47:11   terminated 35:19      thrifts 67:10,16       transcript 99:13\nstockholders 96:23      48:15 58:3 59:5     terms 84:4,6 96:21       69:9                transfer 12:2\nstopping 79:9           61:13 85:20,23      test 50:10            tied 31:22             transparent 97:2\nstrange 45:23           96:20               testified 6:5 37:7    till 97:7              treat 39:21\nstrategies 22:15,19   surplus 11:11           37:18 55:10 59:17   time 4:17 5:5 8:1      treated 48:9\n  23:7 24:17 25:4       14:20 29:9,10         59:24 60:2 62:11       13:5 15:2 16:10     tried 22:10 82:22\n  27:5 28:5,21 29:4   surprise 87:20        testify 6:12 99:8,8      17:24 19:13 20:1    triple 81:11 93:17\n  31:16 32:11,20      swear 6:1             testimony 2:21           20:2,22,25 21:14    triple-A-rated 71:7\n  40:17 42:1 45:6     sworn 6:4 20:12         6:16 25:16 55:15       22:13 25:22 26:2      93:17\n  46:16,24 53:7,20      99:7                  62:8 82:25 90:10       29:19 32:6 37:9     trouble 59:21\n  60:5 61:1 62:14                             95:4 97:2 99:10        38:6 39:9,15          77:15\nStrategists 23:9               T            thank 18:9 46:10         41:11,12 44:24      true 21:2 24:21\n  31:7 34:24 35:4,8   T 4:1,1                 62:10 97:1,19          49:16 51:14 54:14     63:18 64:3,12,15\n  37:6 39:7 42:7,24   table 28:13           thereof 4:18             55:5,21 56:24         64:18,21,25 71:23\n  43:13,18,23 44:4    take 35:22 39:2       thing 16:25              59:4 60:22 61:8       77:13 83:7 84:15\n  44:16                 61:10 62:2,20       things 22:2 97:22        61:10 65:18 66:17     86:22 92:14 99:12\nstrategized 86:20     taken 1:9 4:6 20:17   think 11:13 12:24        70:24 78:10,10      truth 99:8\nstrategy 76:10          36:17 41:4            15:10 23:2,3           80:22 92:20 93:1    truthful 97:2\nStreet 1:10,16,23     talk 22:5 46:22         24:19,20 27:17,21      93:9                try 59:23 95:8\n  2:3 5:4             talked 6:24 29:2        28:10 29:10 31:13   times 22:10            trying 21:19 32:6\nstrictly 38:14          34:10,12 37:1,15      32:5 33:9 40:2,10   timing 37:7              41:6 45:11 47:19\nstrike 44:6 46:21       39:21 41:17           44:17 45:11 46:1    today 6:12 49:1          67:4 69:10 76:4,9\n  51:24 53:4          talking 13:24 20:6      46:6,12 51:1,17        52:13 58:23 59:7      88:17 89:8 96:18\nstructure 45:1          28:20 39:9 40:3       54:10,13 55:2,9        59:14,25 97:3       turn 17:10 49:19\n\n\n               ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES\nDC 1-800-441-3376   MD 1-800-539-6398   VA 1-800-752-8979\n\f        Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB       Document 33-10        Filed 06/21/2007     Page 39 of 52\n\n                                  Robert G.             Jones\n                                                                                               Page 12\n\n  51:10 82:22         33:6 96:4           way 24:24 99:17        54:16,19,20 55:3     50:22 79:16,17\nturned 45:17        ventures 24:4         ways 58:9              55:17,25 56:7,14     80:18 94:15 98:4\ntweak 40:5          verbal 26:12          Wednesday 1:11         56:20 57:3,5 59:1    98:5,8\ntweaking 83:10      verbals 26:6          week 47:8              59:3 60:2,4,8,17    wouldn't 16:5\ntwo 10:17 17:19     VERSUS 1:5            went 19:11 26:10       60:21 62:13,16,19    67:19 72:11,23\n  39:17 55:23 59:11 vice 44:24             34:18 55:19 65:7      62:22 63:2,7         73:2 76:24 77:8\n  67:14 79:3 86:1   video 5:6,8            65:7 79:21 80:22      68:16 69:15 71:20    86:5\n  91:4,7 97:11      videographer 2:6       80:22 89:4            75:24,25 76:7,15    write 58:4,5\ntwofold 77:21         5:1,24 36:4,8       weren't 22:11 26:3     78:12 79:24 80:2    write-up 51:7\ntype 47:24 60:7       58:14,18 61:14,18   we'll 66:1 91:10       89:20 93:6,12       writing 52:3\n  61:2 69:3,17        72:1,3,7 74:21,25   we're 97:9             94:23 96:5 98:4     written 25:2,20\n  92:11               91:11,15            we've 28:20 29:2      window 54:15         wrote 39:20 75:9\n                    videotape 5:2 36:6     48:12,25 50:3        wiped 8:24            81:18\n          U           36:10 58:16,20       58:24 71:25 75:4     Wisconsin 1:20       W228 1:16\nU 4:1                 61:16,20 72:5,9      93:20                Wiser 20:18,24\num 10:7               74:23 75:2 91:13    whatsoever 30:10      witness 4:5,24 6:1            X\nunable 30:9           91:17                31:12                 7:15 35:24 39:3     X 2:14\nunaware 86:6        Videotaped 1:8        white 64:6,10,11       62:4 63:22 66:8\nunderstand 12:15    View 15:24,24 16:3    wholesale 76:17        68:22 70:9,21                Y\n  47:11 48:15 58:3    16:7 77:22,25       wholesaler 57:22       71:12 72:20 73:7    yeah 31:21\n  63:20 71:13 82:12   78:13,23,25 79:5     57:24                 73:16 77:20 78:21   year 30:11\n  96:7                79:5,5,22           wife 22:11             81:14 82:1,4,11     years 9:25 10:23\nunderstanding       violating 77:8        Williams 1:3,18        82:16 84:19,25        11:2 12:18 93:23\n  18:11 28:25 55:8 void 67:11 69:3,19      2:19,23,25 5:23       86:15 87:2 88:10    yellow 56:3\n  56:4,4 57:14      volume 69:8 86:17      11:18,22,25 12:6      89:14 92:5 95:23    York 93:14\n  95:17 99:14       voluntary 97:25        13:21 15:3,18         99:6                you-all 87:15 88:5\nunderstood 80:4,20                         20:1,12,22 21:4,6    woman 95:7,14          97:6,7\n  81:3                       W             21:9,10,15 23:9      woman-owned\nunderwriting 49:9 wait 68:18,18 97:7                                                         Z\n                                           23:12,18 24:23        95:11\n  77:25             waiting 54:16                                                    Zurich 28:10 40:3\n                                           25:5,21,23 26:11     words 83:18\nUnited 1:1 12:1     waived 4:10,13                                                    40:4,10,11 51:22\n                                           26:15,17 28:1,8      work 16:5 32:18\nupside-down 22:2    walking 45:16,25                                                  52:3,4,6 54:10,11\n                                           28:24 29:7,24         33:8 34:19,21\nurban 68:12         want 7:9 40:13                                                    81:16\n                                           30:25 31:8,20,24      54:7 78:12,17\nuse 31:11             45:22 46:11 49:23    32:8,14,19 33:1       80:4,8,17,19                 $\nutilizing 11:23       50:9 77:4 97:1,21    33:15,18 34:9,23      81:10,22 84:23      $10,000 36:17\nU.S 52:3            wanted 36:13 48:14     37:5,12,23 38:25     worked 10:3,6\n                      67:13                39:8 40:16,18,24      14:10 25:24 32:21           0\n          V         wanting 67:12          41:5,10,16,20,20      32:22 33:11 37:5    007232 74:8,20\nvague 70:8,15       Washington 1:17        41:25 42:3,6,14       37:12 58:8 73:12\nvagueness 70:19       1:20,24 24:1         42:18,23 43:4,7       80:11 81:16                   1\nVan 1:16 13:5,11      42:16 90:7           43:12,13,18,23       working 10:14,24     1 2:17 3:6 16:20\nvarious 18:25 19:9 wasn't 15:15 23:10      44:3,9,15 45:3,5,7    15:11,23 21:13        36:6 75:5\n  19:10 69:23 70:6    32:24 49:14 54:21    46:7,16,17,23,24      22:24 24:9,13       1:05CV01483 1:4\nventure 26:18         86:11                47:4,7,17,25 49:5     26:24 27:12 29:20   10:05 36:6\n  31:17 32:12,15    water 35:25            52:25 53:11,18        34:4,5,8 37:23      10:13 36:10\n\n\n               ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES\nDC 1-800-441-3376   MD 1-800-539-6398   VA 1-800-752-8979\n\f        Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 33-10       Filed 06/21/2007   Page 40 of 52\n\n                                      Robert G.           Jones\n                                                                                             Page 13\n\n11th 1:11 5:5           87:25 89:23        7th 74:3\n11:13 58:20           20016-2892 1:20      70s 10:6\n11:17 61:16           2002 89:23 91:20     70130 1:10\n11:19 61:20           2003 90:7            7232 3:6 75:7\n11:33 72:5            2004 2:22 25:17      7297 74:5\n11:36 72:9            2005 8:10 9:8        7918 2:24 38:23\n11:39 74:23           2006 86:24 87:23\n11:40 75:2              88:20,22 89:5              8\n12:06 91:13           2007 1:11 5:5       8002 23:21\n12:13 91:17           21st 80:13          8002-8004 2:19\n12:22 1:12            25 10:23            8004 23:21\n15th 3:2 48:18        26 49:16            8015 48:19\n16 11:21                                  8015-8017 3:2\n1625 1:23                       3         8017 48:20 49:20\n19 9:8                3 1:9 2:19,21 6:9   8031 3:4 62:1\n1966 10:5               23:18 25:15 52:22 84 17:15\n1990s 10:15,16          72:9 74:23 75:2\n1991 7:17 8:7           91:13,17                   9\n1992 9:10 65:2        30 2:22 25:17       9:16 1:11 5:6\n  80:12               3003 1:16           90s 11:14\n1993 65:2 91:20       3900 1:20           93 9:10 15:9 65:9\n1994 21:12 80:14      39401 2:4             80:12\n  80:14 93:5                              94 15:9,10 65:9\n1997 11:22 15:22                4         97 79:18\n1998 37:14 74:3       4 2:23 29:23        9703 73:21 74:7\n  79:21,22            40-some-odd 80:24 98 15:23 29:19\n1999 2:23 29:25       404 2:3\n  30:14 31:6 32:1              5\n         2            5 2:24 38:22\n2 2:19 23:16 36:10    50/50 26:7,13\n  58:16,20 61:16,20             6\n  72:5\n                      6 3:2 48:17\n2nd 2:23 29:25\n                      6230 61:24\n  30:14 31:5 32:1\n                      6230-6232 3:4\n20 10:23 25:18\n                      6232 61:24\n2000 33:23 80:12\n                      63 17:12\n  87:25\n                      64 51:8\n20006-4001 1:24\n                      643 1:10 5:4\n20008 1:17\n                      65 51:7\n2001 2:19 3:2 16:17\n                      6907 2:17 16:23\n  17:8 23:18 33:24\n                      6936 17:12\n  41:13 48:18 49:6\n  49:7,12 55:5                  7\n  58:23 60:19 80:15   7 3:4 61:23 62:6\n\n\n               ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES\nDC 1-800-441-3376   MD 1-800-539-6398   VA 1-800-752-8979\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB   Document 33-10   Filed 06/21/2007   Page 41 of 52\n\n\n\n\n                                 1\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB   Document 33-10   Filed 06/21/2007   Page 42 of 52\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB   Document 33-10   Filed 06/21/2007   Page 43 of 52\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB   Document 33-10   Filed 06/21/2007   Page 44 of 52\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB   Document 33-10   Filed 06/21/2007   Page 45 of 52\n\n\n\n\n                                 2\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB   Document 33-10   Filed 06/21/2007   Page 46 of 52\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB   Document 33-10   Filed 06/21/2007   Page 47 of 52\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB   Document 33-10   Filed 06/21/2007   Page 48 of 52\n\n\n\n\n                                 3\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB   Document 33-10   Filed 06/21/2007   Page 49 of 52\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB   Document 33-10   Filed 06/21/2007   Page 50 of 52\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB   Document 33-10   Filed 06/21/2007   Page 51 of 52\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB   Document 33-10   Filed 06/21/2007   Page 52 of 52\n\f","ocr_status":2,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:47:54-07:00","document_number":"33","attachment_number":9,"pacer_doc_id":"04501888780","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":2,"description":"Exhibit Exhibit H - Jones Deposition and Exhibits","acms_document_guid":""},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686750/","id":2686750,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/33/10/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.714523-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:10.058915-08:00","sha1":"d26ec266c7237b2a06dc765e17ce486a39da110f","page_count":37,"file_size":1743814,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.10.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.10.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":"Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-11 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 1 of 37\n\nEXHIBIT I\n\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-11 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 2 of 37\n\nIN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT OF MISSISSIPPI\nSOUTHERN DIVISION\n\nCAM FINANCIAL SERVICES INC. PLAINTIFF\n\nVS. . No. 1:01cv314BrR\n\nGENERAL STAR NATIONAL INSURANCE\n\nCOMPANY; GENERAL STAR INDEMNITY\n\nCOMPANY; GENERAL STAR MANAGEMENT\n\nCOMPANY; GENERAL RE CORPORATION;\n\nGENERAL REINSURANCE CORPORATION;\n\nCRUMP INSURANCE SERVICES OF MEMPHIS\n\nINC.; CRAIG OTT, INDIVIDUALLY AND IN HIS\nREPRESENTATIVE CAPACITY AS VICE PRESIDENT\n\nOF GENERAL STAR MANAGEMENT COMPANY >\n\nFEDERAL NATIONAL MORTGAGE ASSOCIATION .\n(FANNIE MAE) DEFENDANTS\n\nJURY TRIAL DEMANDED\n\nFIRST AMENDED COMPLAINT\n\nCOMES NOW, CAM Financial Services Inc., Plaintiff herein, by and through the\nundersigned counsel of record, and would respectfully show unto the Court, its claims for relief\nagainst General Star National Insurance Company; General Star Indemnity Company; General\nStar Management Company; General Re Corporation; General Reinsurance Corporation; Crump\nInsurance Services of Memphis Inc.; Craig Ott, Individually and in his Representative Capacity\nas Vice President of General Star Management Company and the Federal National Mortgage\nAssociation (Fannie Mae), Defendants, herein, and in support thereof would show unto the Court\n\nthe following to-wit:\n\nPage 1 of 36\nMW00158\nFNMA.MBW.008436\nCONFIDENTIAL\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-11 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 3 of 37\n\nPARTIES\n1. CAM F inancial Services, Inc., (hereinafter \u201cCAM\u201d) is a corporation organized and\nexisting under the laws of the State of Mississippi, having its principal place of business located\nat 1542 East Beach Boulevard, Gulfport, Mississippi.\n2. General Star National Insurance Company (hereinafter \u201cGenStar\u201d) is a stock insurance\ncompany, wholly owned and operating as a subsidiary of General Re Corporation, organized and\nexisting under the State of Connecticut; and having its principal place of business at Financial\nCentre; P.O. Box 10354, Stamford, CT 06904.\n3. General Star Indemnity Company, is a wholly- owned subsidiary of General Re\nCorporation, Corporation, organized and existing under laws of the State of Connecticut; and\nhaving its principal place of business at Financial Centre; P.O. Box 10354, Stamford, CT 06904.\n4. General Star Management Company is a wholly owned and operated subsidiary of\nGeneral Re Corporation, organized and existing under the laws of the State of Connecticut; and\nhaving its principal place of business at Financial Centre; P. O. Box 10354, Stamford, CT 06904.\n5. General Reinsurance Corporation is a wholly owned and operated subsidiary of General\nRe Corporation, and is organized and existing under the laws of the State of Connecticut having\nits principal place of business at Financial Centre; P.O. Box 10354, Stamford, CT 06904.\nDefendants in Paragraphs 2 through 5, being wholly-owned subsidiaries of General Re\nCorporation are collectively referred to as \u201c\u201cGenStar.\u201d .\n6. General Re Corporation ( \u201cGenRe\u201d) is a wholly owned subsidiary of Berkshire-\n\nHathaway, Inc., organized and existing under the laws of the State of Connecticut; and having its\n\nP 2 of 36\n\u201ceee MWwo00159\n\nFNMA.MBW.008437\nCONFIDENTIAL\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-11 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 4 of 37\n\nprincipal place of business at Financial Centre; P.O. Box 10354, Stamford, CT 06904. Crump\nInsurance Services of Memphis, Inc., is a corporation organized and existing under the laws of\nthe State of Tennessee, and having its principal place of business at 1000 Ridgeway Loop Road.\nMemphis, Tennessee.\n\n7. Craig Ott (hereinafter \u201cOtt\u201d) is a resident of the State of New Jersey, residing at 263\nHobart Avenue Short Hills, N.J. 07078-2206. Ott has committed breaches of contract and\ntortious acts in whole or in part in the State of Mississippi, thereby establishing such mimimum\ncontacts in the State of Mississippi so as to reasonably anticipate being haled into court in this\nState.\n\n8. The Federal National Mortgage Association a/k/a (and hereinafter) \u201cFannie Mae\u201d is a\nfederally chartered corporation, created by the United States pursuant to 12 U.S.C. \u00a71717, having\nits principal place of business in the District of Columbia, but who has entered into contracts to\nbe performed in whole or in part in the State of Mississippi, and has committed tortious acts in\nwhole or in part in the State of Mississippi, so as to reasonably anticipate being haled into court\nin this State. Fannie Mae has the power to sue and be sued in the courts of the United States\n\n\" pursuant to 12 U.S.C. \u00a71723a(a).\n\nJURISDICTION\n\n9. Your Plaintiff would show that this Court has jurisdiction of the matter pursuant to 28\nU.S.C. \u00a71332 in that there is complete diversity of citizenship between the parties, and the\namount in genuine controversy is in excess of $75,000.00. Venue is proper in the Southern\n\nDistrict of Mississippi as the contracts were entered into in whole or in part within the Southern\n\nPage 3 of 36\nMw00160 |\nMA.MBW.008438\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-11 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 5of 37\n\nDistrict of Mississippi and the torts alleged herein were likewise committed in whole or in part in\n\nthe Southern District of Mississippi.\n\nFACTS\n10. \u2018From 1992-1995 CAM specialized in the origination of multifamily Joans brokered to\nFannie Mae DUS Lenders (approved Delegated Underwriting Servicers for Fannie Mae). In\n1995 CAM began a special project to develop a multifamily loan credit enhancement to be\nunderwritten and issued by \u201cSingle A\u201d or higher rated insurance companies. In April or May of\n1995, CAM was approached by one of the Fannie Mae DUS Lenders (Eichler Fayne) to take its\nmultifamily loan credit enhancement proposal to Fannie Mae Capital Markets in Washington,\nD.C.\n11. CAM's initial proposal to Fannie Mae involving the use of a policy issued and\nunderwritten by a \u201cSingle A\u201d rated insurer was not acceptable as presented. Nevertheless,\nFannie Mae was intrigued by this new and unique concept and encouraged CAM to seek higher\nquality potential imsurers having AAA ratings.\n12. Accordingly, CAM Financial met with American International Group (AIG) at Fannie\n. Mae in the fall of 1995. AIG showed some preliminary interest in CAM's concept for coverage\n. for Fannie Mae.\n13. The first product development meeting between CAM, Fannie Mae and AJG took place\non February 1, 1996, at Fannie Mae in Washington. DC. This meeting concluded with a verbal\nagreement between Fannie Mae and CAM that CAM was to begin work on the development of a\n\ndraft insurance policy for AIG's review. Fannie Mae and CAM started with CAM's specimen\n\nPage 4 of 36\n\nMW00161 FNMA.MBW.008439\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-11 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 6of 37\n\npolicy, modifying it to incorporate secondary market securitization documentation, risk-based\ncapital transfer, and collateral credit support for approval by Fannie Mae Credit Policy. CAM\nwould be the keeper of each policy draft update.\n\n14. After over twenty-five draft policy updates and revisions over a period of at least the\nnext ten months, Fannie Mae lawyers were reasonably satisfied with the policy form and\ncontent. Fannie Mae approved the proposed policy in January of 1997 and CAM sent the\nfinalized draft to AIG for review.\n\n15. From January through July 1997 CAM and Fannie Mae worked through more than ten\nadditional drafts of policies with AIG to ensure the policy would not be consirued by New York\ninsurance regulators as a \u201cfinancial guarantee\u201d and to eliminate other technical concerns,\nincluding Fannie Mae\u2019s Credit Support Agreement. Finally, AIG's chairman of the board gave\nhis approval for American International Specialty Lines Insurance Company (AISLIC) to write\nthis unique type of insurance for Fannie Mae. A premium pricing grid was finalized and\nacceptable to AIG and Fannie Mae. AIG built a credit model to capture Fannie Mae historic\nmultifamily loan performance and CAM began working on underwriting criteria and due\ndiligence procedures separate from Fannie Mae for future loan portfolios to be covered by this\nnew and unique type of insurance product.\n\n16. CAM executed a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) with Fannie Mae on April 4,\n1997 to provide Multifamily Credit Risk Insurance ( MCRI) coverage specifically for Fannie\nMae. The purpose of this insurance coverage would be to provide loss coverage protection for\nthe subordinate level of risk on certain multifamily loans sold to or securitized by Fannie Mae.\n\nFannie Mae would be the insured and AlG would be the insurer. Fannie Mae would have the\n\nPage 5 of 36 MW00162\n\nF NMA.MBW.008440\nCONFIDENTIAL\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-11 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 7 of 37\n\nexclusive rights to use this coverage and CAM would be AJG's broker with the exclusive\nbrokerage rights to represent Fannie Mae. CAM and Fannie Mae would jointly retain all\ncopyrights to MCRI products written by AIG. (This ownership was in addition to the broad\nownership rights as to the MCRI itself pursuant to the filed copyrights). The term of this\nagreement would be seven years from date of execution, with Fannie Mae having the right to\nextend the MOU for two successive five year terms at the end of the initial seven year term. (See\nExhibit # 1 retained by Plaintiff's counsel under seal).\n\n17. In May 1997, Fannie Mae filed a joint copyright registration for Fannie Mae and CAM\nFinancial as the joint copyright owners for the generic version of the Multifamily Credit Risk\nInsurance Policy (MCRI) with the United States Copyright Office. (See Exhibit #2 retained by\nPlaintiff's counsel under seal).\n\n18. From May through July 1997, CAM developed insurance brokerage due diligence\nunderwriting and operating procedures to be used for transacting a pilot transaction with Fannie\nMae and AIG. During this time, Fannie Mae selected a pilot proposed transaction with\nMetropolitan Bank and Trust for delivery of a seasoned multifamily whole loan portfolio swap\nwith Fannie Mae in exchange for a Fannie Mae MBS using MCRI insurance coverage for\nsubordinated first loss security. Fannie Mae worked with the Office of Thrift Supervision for\nassurance the AAA insurance policy would be acceptable credit support for Thrift Institution\nrisk-based capital transfer.\n\n19. Fannie Mae Credit Policy approved the Metropolitan Bank & Trust transaction the first\n\n_ week of Aug 1997, with MCRI insurance as acceptable collateral for first loss recourse. This\n\nPage 6 of 36\nMW00163 . FNMA.MBW.008441\nCONFIDENTIAL\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-11 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 8 of 37\n\ntransaction closed on August 20, 1997 for approximately $92,000,000, with insurance coverage\nof $8,134,000 issued by AIG.\n20. This was the first time this type of insurance was used in a secondary market, Fannie\nMae securitized transaction as referenced in a Fannie Mae letter dated September 16, 1997. (See\nExhibit #3 retained by Plaintiff's counsel under seal).\n21. Several months after the closing of the Metropolitan Bank & Trust transaction, AIG\nasked CAM and Fannie Mae to change the name on future policies from Multifamily Credit Risk\nInsurance to Multifamily Collateral Risk Insurance. There would be no need to change the MCRI\nacronym. A second joint copyright recording was made by Fannie Mae in February 1998 to\nrecord a generic policy that included final changes used in the Metropolitan Bank transaction.\n22. A second transaction was closed with AIG issuing MCRI coverage through CAM for\nFannie Mae Multifamily Aggregation (seasoned conduit whole loans sold to Fannie Mae for\ncash) totaling approximately $100,000,000 on September 30, 1998 with coverage by AIG of\n$11,159,786. During the course of underwriting this transaction, disputes arose between Fannie\nMae and AIG. Fannie Mae and AIG soon became at odds with each other with no new coverage\nproposals submitted by Fannie Mae to CAM for price quotes by AIG following this second\ntransaction.\n23. Prior to the conflict arising between AJG and Fannie Mae, (in fact only several weeks\nafter execution of the April 4, 1997, MOU entered into between Fannie Mae and CAM), Fannie\nMae verbally asked CAM to begin efforts to identify and contact additional AAA rated insurance\n\ncompanies that might be interested in writing MCRI for Fannie Mae..\n\nMW00164 Page 7 of 36\n\nFNMA.MBW.008442\nCONFIDENTIAL\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-11 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 9of 37\n\n24. On May 28, 1997, CAM executed a corporate Confidentiality Agreement with Cramp\nInsurance Services of Memphis, Inc., (\u201cCrump\u201d) to represent CAM, as its wholesale broker, for\nthe procurement of additional AAA rated insurers having an interest in writing MCRI coverage\nfor Fannie Mae. (See Exhibit #4 retained by Plaintiff's counsel under seal).\n\n25. On May 28, 1997, Craig Ott, Vice President of General Star Indemnity Co. Inc. and\nGeneral Star Management Company executed CAM Financial\u2019s Confidentiality Agreement for\nMCRIL. The confidentiality agreement was executed via fax transmittal prior to CAM\u2019s and\nCrump\u2019s first meeting with GenStar. (See Exhibit #5 retained by Plaintiff's counsel under seal).\n26. CAM's confidentiality agreement for MCRI clearly states that the signatory of the\nAgreement agrees, understands and acknowledges that all MCRI product information is\nconfidential and proprietary to CAM and Fannie Mae. Ott executed the CAM agreement with\n\"full knowledge and understanding of any unauthorized disclosure or dissemination of the form,\nterms, or provisions of the MCRI Policy, or any other information regarding MCRI is likely to\ncause irreparable harm to CAM Financial and Fannie Mae\u201d.\n\n27. Crump set up an introductory meeting with representatives of GenStar and GenRe in\nCAM's offices in Gulfport, Mississippi, in early June 1997. By letter of June 2, 1997, CAM\nauthorized Crump to release to GenStar and GenRe a copy of CAM's Confidential Term Sheet\n/Confidentiality of Multifamily Credit Risk Insurance dated May 31. 1997. (See Exhibit #6\nretained by Plaintiff's counsel under seal). At this meeting, GenStar, through Craig Ott and\nMike Denton, represented that they were communicating with and representing GenRe and all\nnecessary subsidiaries. They stated that Gen Re would be reinsuring any policies issued by\n\nGenStar or GenStar Management, and that Gen Re\u2019s financial wherewithal would provide the\n\nPage 8 of 36 .\nMW00165 FNMA.MBW.008443\nCONFIDENTIAL\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-11 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 10 of 37\n\nnecessary \u201cTriple A\u201d rating required by Fannie Mae. They represented that GenRe, as the parent\nwould be required to approve all aspects of any business plan or agreements that were ultimately\nentered into between CAM, Crump, Fannie Mae and any GenRe subsidiary.\n28. CAM and Crump next set up an introductory meeting with representatives of GenStar,\nGen Re, and NEAM at Fannie Mae in Washington. D.C. This meeting was held on August 1,\n1997. This introductory meeting was the first meeting at which were present representatives\nfrom all parties involved. The meeting was very productive and Fannie Mae agreed to furnish\nadditional data and pricing model information to NEAM (another GenRe wholly-owned\nsubsidiary that was to undertake the due diligence/underwriting tasks related to the approval of\naggregation pools), GenRe and GenStar. CAM agreed to furnish its Premium Pricing Grid and\nInsurance Due Diligence Underwriting Guidelines and Operating Procedures for Fannie Mae\nMCRI business to GenStar and to GenRe, as GenRe had represented through Craig Ott and John\nToi that the information was necessary for GenRe\u2019s underwriting analysis. This information\nwas and is proprietary to CAM and was developed by CAM and was furnished as a part of the\ninformation to be protected by the Confidentiality Agreement executed by GenStar.\n29. A second meeting with Fannie Mae occurred on October 31, 1997 at Fannie Mae.\nGenStar's Craig Ott and GenRe's John Toi gave Fannie Mae, CAM and Crump an update on\ntheir progress toward obtaining GenRe\u2019s approval for GenStar to write MCRI coverage for\nFannie Mae. At this meeting and all subsequent meetings that GenRe was \u201c\u2018calling the shots\u201d\nand was making all of the decisions on behalf of any GenRe subsidiaries involved, as.to\n\nGenStar\u2019s role in MCRI and that GenRe would reinsure the risk so as to meed the Fannie Mae\n\nPage 9 of 36\nMW00166\n\nFNMA.MBW.008447\nCONFIDENTIAL\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-11 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 11 of 37\n\nrequirement for a \u201cTriple-A\u201d rated carrier to issue and stand behind the policy. At that meeting,\nFannie Mae, CAM and Crump entered into a seven year exclusive offering by GenStar styled as:\n\nProvision of Multifamily Credit Risk Insurance (MCRI) by\n\nGeneral Star Indemnity Company (collectively, \"GenStar\"), as\n\nbrokered by Crump Insurance Services (\"Crump\"), and CAM\n\nFinancial Services, Inc. (\"CAM\"):\n\nConfirmation of Exclusive Offering to Fannie Mae; Non-\n\nDisclosure of Terms of Negotiations\n(See Exhibit #7 retained by Plaintiffs counsel under seal).\n30. A third meeting, on December 17, 1997, was held at Fannie Mae (with representatives\nof both GenStar and GenRe in attendance) to announce that GenStar now had corporate\napproval of Gen Re and with the blessing and approval of GenRe had made the decision to\nsupport MCRI exclusively for Crump on behalf of Fannie Mae. GenRe, or a subsidiary\ncompany representative, accompanied GenStar to all meetings with CAM and Fannie Mae, and it\n\nwas represented that GenStar was the company that would issue the policy, but that GenRe was\n\nmaking all decisions regarding the product, and was re-insuring the product. GenStar and GenRe\nrepresentatives worked directly with CAM (through Crump). At this meeting, GenStar/GenRe\ncommitted to provide Two Billion Dollars ($2,000,000,000) per year of insurance coverage for\nMCRI and Fannie Mae. GenStar followed the Fannie Mae meeting with a letter to Crump\nannouncing the GenStar commitment to offer MCRI coverage for terms up to 30 years on behalf\nof Fannie Mae. On December 22, 1997, Crump sent CAM a copy of the GenStar commitment\nto write MCRI coverage exclusively through Crump and Crump agreed to exclusively write\n\nMCRI through CAM. (See Exhibits #8 & #9, respectively, retained by Plaintiff's counsel under\n\nseal).\n\nPage 10 of 36\n\nMWO0\n0167 FNMA.MBW.008446\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-11 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 12 of 37\n\n31. The GenStar letter of December 16, 1997 indicated there were two key points or issues\nremaining to resolve, and expressed GenStar\u2019s anticipation of being able to write Fannie Mae\nbusiness beginning in January 1998. Unfortunately, these two issues became rather significant\nhurdles to overcome. It was approximately twelve more months in resolving these two hurdles,\nbefore GenStar was able to write the first MCRI policy for Fannie Mae. Under CAM\u2019s MCRI\nbusiness plan that was ultimately approved by GenRe, CAM was the agent for Fannie Mae and\nthe broker for GenStar. Premiums for MCRI were to be remitted from Fannie Mae to CAM in\nGulfport, Mississippi. CAM then deducted its commissions from the gross premium and\nremitted the net premium to Crump as the wholesale broker for GenStar, pursuant to the\nbrokerage agreement between CAM and Crump, and the letter agreement from Crump agreeing\nto place such insurance exclusively through CAM. Crump was to deduct its brokerage fees from\nthe net premium, and remit the \u201cnet-net\u201d premium to GenStar. GenStar was to have entered into\nreinsurance agreements with GenRe. Thus CAM, the agent for the policy, received and remitted\nthe premium payments from the insured. For the contract of insurance. During this time,\nGenStar and GenRe represented to CAM that as GenRe was providing this reinsurance, (to\nassure the \u201cTriple-A\u201d rating), that Ronald Ferguson (GenRe\u2019s CEO), Joe Brandon (GenRe\u2019s\nCFO) and James Gustafson (GenRe\u2019s president) must and had approved all aspects of the MCRI\nbusiness plan.\n\n32. In the spring of 1998, at a meeting between Crump, CAM, GenRe, GenStar and Fannie\nMae, this commitment for $2,000,000,000 per year in coverage was confirmed by GenStar, with\n\nthe approval of GenRe.\n\nMW00168 Page 11 of 36\n\nFNMA.MBW.008445\nCONFIDENTIAL\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-11 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 13 of 37\n\n33. Ott and GenStar entered into a Confidentiality Agreement with Boston Portfolio\nAdvisors on January 14, 1998. On June 2, 1998, Ott notified Fannie Mae of this agreement and\nasked that the same terms of the Fannie Mae-CAM-Crump-GenStar Confidentiality Agreement\nfor MCRI dated October 31, 1997, be applicable to Boston Portfolio by extension. (See Exhibit\n#10 retained by Plaintiff's counsel under seal). Fannie Mae accepted this extension of\napplication of the Confidentiality Agreement in correspondence.\n\n34. It is CAM\u2019s understanding that a similar Confidentiality Agreement had been executed ~\nbetween Crump, GenStar and Nicholas Didier. CAM was assured that Nicholas Didier executed\nConfidentiality Agreements with Crump, prior to Crump\u2019s introduction of Nicholas Didier to\nCAM, GenStar and Fannie Mae. CAM has not been provided executed copies of any such\nConfidentiality Agreements.\n\n35. During October 1998, when the final approval for GenStar to write MCRI coverage for\nFannie Mae was imminent, CAM and Crump first became concerned that Ott and GenStar were\nmaking an attempt to establish a direct insurance relationship with Fannie Mae, thereby\ncircumventing the brokerage contracts and relationships of CAM and Crump.\n\n36. In June 1998, CAM had introduced Metropolitan Bank and Trust to GenStar and GenRe\nthrough Crump on a proposed MCRI transaction to insure a commercial and multifamily\nportfolio. (Fannie Mae had declined the transaction because of a heavy concentration of\ncommercial loans.) Over the next several months following Fannie Mae\u2019s declination, Ott, on\nbehalf of GenStar and GenRe took over direct control of the due diligence activities as well as\nall negotiation with Metropolitan. Ott deliberately kept Crump and CAM out of all discussions\n\nwith Metropolitan regarding this transaction. CAM was advised by Crump that Crump had\n\nPage 12 of 36 .\nage wee MW00169\n\nFNMA.MBW.008444\nCONFIDENTIAL\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-11 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 14 of 37\n\nnumerous conversations with GenStar and GenRe im protest over being omitted from these\ndiscussions and over Oit\u2019s circumvention of the agency/brokerage relationship. CAM would\nshow that Crump was required by the terms of 1) the Confidentiality Agreement, 2) the Letter\nAgreement to write MCRI exclusively through CAM and the Letter Agreement between GenStar\nand Crump to write MCRI exclusively through Crump(to which CAM was clearly and\nunequivocally an intended third party beneficiary), and 3) the fiduciary relationship which arose\nby operation of the brokerage agreement with CAM and the agency relationship which arose\ntherefrom, to use any lawful means necessary to force compliance with the spirit and terms of\nGenStar and GenRe\u2019s commitments. Out of fear of losing additional. business from.\nGenStar/GenRe, Crump failed and refused to take such action, and actively conspired to conceal\nthe truth of the transaction from CAM. Crump had full knowledge that Crump\u2019s failure to act,\nand conspiracy to conceal such information was damaging to CAM. CAM relied on the\nConfidentiality Agreement, the Letter Agreements, the verbal commitments and its\nagency/brokerage relationships and agreements with Crump to protect its interests in this matter.\nCrump did not do so, and as a result, GenStar/GenRe unlawfully did misappropriate CAM\u2019s\ncopyrighted policy, and the other proprietary information, included but not limited to the\nConfidential Term Sheet, Premium Pricing Grid and CAM Operating Procedures and\nUnderwriting Guidelines which were the sole property of CAM.\n\n37. Finally, on September 29, 1998, GenStar did provide Crump with a copy of the\ncoverage quote previously sent to Metropolitan. The quote referenced the offering of CAM'\u2019s .\n\nproduct and coverage for Commercial/ Multifamily Collateral Replacement Insurance. (See\n\nPage 13 of 36\nMW00170 ENMA.MBW.008453\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-11 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 15 of 37\n\nExhibit #11 retained by Plaintiffs counsel under seal). CAM was not advised of this coverage\nquote until late October of 1998.\n\n38. It was then apparent that GenStar and GenRe (who approved all MCRI transaction)\nwere finalizing the $100,000,000 transaction with $10,000,000 coverage in a direct transaction\nwith Metropolitan, in direct violation of the exclusive agency and brokerage relationships\nbetween GenStar/GenRe and Crump, and between Crump and CAM. Ott attempted to\ndownplay this fact and tried to assure Crump that there was no effort being made to cut Crump\nand CAM out of the deal, assuring Crump that Crump and CAM would be paid on the \u2014\ntransaction, however, Crump would have to remain \u201ctransparent until the deal closed\u201d and that\nCrump could deal with CAM as they pleased. CAM was subsequently advised by Crump for\nthis \u201cneed for transparency\u201d after the fact, and despite vigorous protest by CAM, no satisfactory\nexplanation has ever been offered for such a requirement, other than to verify the arguments\nmade by GenStar, GenRe and Ott to Fannie Mae that CAM \u201cwas expendable.\u201d CAM, to this\nday, has received no premium payments from Metropolitan, as would have been required by the\nMCRI business plan, nor has it received any accounting from Crump for payments made directly\nto either GenStar or Crump as called for in the Term Sheet and CAM Operating Procedures and\nUnderwriting Guidelines of the business plan that had been presented to and approved by CAM.\nCrump has intentionally concealed this information from CAM in order to protect its own\nrelationship with GenStar.\n\n39. After witnessing this conduct by GenStar (through its Vice President, Craig Ott), in the\nnon-Fannie Mae, Metropolitan Bank transaction, CAM and Crump became extremely concerned\n\nabout the potential for similar wrongful conduct by Ott in the development of a relationship\n\nPage 14 of 36\nMwo00171\nFNMA.MBW.008452\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-11 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 16 of 37\n\nbetween GenStar, himself and Fannie Mae. It is now apparent that GenStar, (through its Vice\nPresident, Ott), and Boston Portfolio Advisors were having extensive direct contact with Fannie\nMae without knowledge or participation of CAM. Crump has totally failed and refused to take\nany action to stop this action in spite of the exclusive brokerage and agency relationships\nbetween GenStar, Crump and CAM.\n\n40. CAM wrote Fannie Mae on October 30, 1998, expressing its concern that an insurer was\nattempting to establish a direct relationship with Fannie Mae on MCRI. CAM did not identify\nGenStar or GenRe by name in the letter in effort not to jeopardize the final approval status of\nGenStar, by Fannie Mae. Nevertheless it is now apparent that Ott, GenStar and GenRe were \u00a9\nattempting to and succeeding in circumventing CAM\u2019s Fannie Mae relationship just as he had\nwith Metropolitan in the previous transaction.\n\n41. Fannie Mae's Richard Lawch responded to CAM's letter by telephone call on November\n4, 1998, stating that \u201cCAM is fully protected with its MOU exclusivity agreement with Fannie -\nMae and no insurance carrier will be able to go around CAM, but Fannie Mae needs to be able to\nhave a one-on-one dialog to facilitate issues and understanding of mortgage banking terms that\ninsurance carriers don't understand.\u201d\n\n42. In spite of this verbal response from Mr. Lawch on November 4, on November 18,\n1998, Mr. Lawch also saw fit to respond in writing to CAM's letter of October 30\",\n\nreferencing several points not mentioned in his telephone call two weeks earlier, primarily to the\neffect that Fannie Mae would recognize the exclusive position of CAM as placing agent for .\n\nMCRI coverage only on potential insurers brought to Fannie Mae by CAM. There was no\n\nPage 15 of 36\nMwWw00172\n\n1\nFENMA.MBW.00845\nCONFIDENTIAL\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-11 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 17 of 37\n\nreference made to CAM\u2019s request for inclusion of GenStar in the MOU (See Exhibit #13\nretained by Plaintiff's counsel under seal).\n43. On December 4, 1998, CAM sent a letter with a proposed memorandum to Fannie Mae\nrequesting a modification to the CAM-Fannie Mae MOU to include GenStar. (See Exhibit #12\nretained by Plaintiffs counsel under seal).\n44, On December 18, 1998, Fannie Mae's Richard Lawch sent a direct letter to Ott and\nGenStar seeking the \"opportunity to share credit risk exposure on certain investments in Fannie\nMae's Portfolio\u201d without any reference or copy to CAM Financial. This action by Fannie Mae -\nwas in direct contravention and breach of the entire agreement, contract, understanding and\nrepresentations from Fannie Mae to CAM. CAM had relied upon the promises and\nrepresentations of Fannie Mae that in consideration for CAM\u2019s efforts in the development of the\nbusiness plan, underwriting procedures, due dili gence protocols and MCRI insurance policy,\nCAM would be the exclusive agent for Fannie Mae. (See Exhibit #14 retained by Plaintiff's\ncounsel under seal).\n45. GenStar continued to move forward with Fannie Mae. The first Fannie Mae transaction\ninsured by GenStar closed in February 1999, and the following policies have since been issued\nby GenStar:\n\n1* Policy. GenStar IAG 364502; Final UPB $236,000,000; Aggregate Coverage\n\n$19,900,000; Effective date of February 1, 1999.\n\n2\u2122 Policy. GenStar [AG 366673; Aggregation II Forward Commitment\n\n$200,000,000, Aggregate Coverage not to exceed $19,900,000; Effective\n\nPage 16 of 36\nMw00173\nFNMA.MBW.008450\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-11 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 18 of 37\n\ndate of October 1, 1999; Fannie Mae delivery was recently completed at\n\napproximately $191,000,000.\n\n3\" Policy. GenStar LAG 368917; MBS Swap Metropolitan Bank and Trust\n\nCompany Final UPB Approximately $145,000,000; Effective date of\n\nNovember 23, 1999.\n46. By letter of April 12, 1999, Fannie Mae indicated it now considered itself as having the\nright to go direct to insurers to cover \"its own property or interest\" without a surplus lines broker.\nThe letter stated that \u201cFannie Mae believes they can use the joint copyright without joint consent.\nand also create MCRI derivatives without joint consent.\u201d Fannie Mae refused to modify the\nMOU to include GenStar. (See Exhibit #15 retained by Plaintiff's counsel under seal). This\naction of Fannie Mae completely ignored and violated Fannie Mae\u2019s fiduciary duty to CAM as a\njoint copyright owner and as the sole owner of the intellectual property rights underlying and\nsupporting the MCRI business plan, as well as the agreement and contract between CAM and\nFannie Mae through which Fannie Mae obtained CAM\u2019s services and expertise in the\ndevelopment of the MCRI business plan. This action by Fannie Mae was the result of the\nwillful, malicious and intentional interference by Ott, GenStar, GenRe and Crump with the\nbusiness relationship which had existed between CAM and Fannie Mae.\n47. CAM would show unto this Court that GenStar, through Craig Ott, actively and\npurposely worked to poison and discredit CAM's relationship with Fannie Mae, and that Ott\nhad advised Fannie Mae that it didn't need a surplus lines broker and that Fannie Mae could go\n\ndirect to GenStar, thereby circumventing the brokerage and agency fees of both CAM and\n\nPage 17 of 36\n\nMwW00174  ENMA.MBW.008449\nCONFIDENTIAL\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-11 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 19 of 37\n\nCrump.\n\n48. Although the above business transactions have been written with MCRI insurance\nissued by GenStar with CAM as Fannie Mae agent and broker to Gen Star, CAM would show\nthis Court that Ott, as an employee and corporate executive of GenStar, has acted in bad faith\nand has willfully, maliciously and intentionally breached CAM's Confidentiality Agreement for\nMCRI, thereby causing significant damages over the past 24 months by discrediting and\ndestroying CAM\u2019s MCRI insurance brokerage relationship with Fannie Mae. CAM would\nfurther show unto this Court that shortly before his departure from GenStar, It is understood\nthat Ott formed, or was in the process of forming a business partnership with Nicholas. Didier (a\nremsurance broker for GenStar) and Scott Calahan, President of Boston Portfolio Advisors.\n(Boston Portfolio Advisors had been GenStar's due diligence contractor on Fannie Mae\nbusiness).\n\n49. CAM would show that Ott represented to Fannie Mae the fact that Nicholas Didier\nperformed work for GenStar by providing reinsurers to increase GenStar\u2019s capacity for Fannie\nMae business. In point of fact, it is noteworthy that several of these reinsurance companies\nrepresented as having been brought to GenStar by Didier had in actuality been introduced to Ott\nby CAM and Crump.\n\n50. CAM would show that Crump has totally failed to require the compliance with the\nConfidentiality Agreement it executed with CAM and failed to protect CAM when acting as\nbroker for CAM with GenStar. Crump concealed the Metropolitan Bank transaction from.CAM\nand has refused to account to CAM for premiums received therefrom in violation of the\n\nexclusivity agreement, brokerage agreements, fiduciary relationship and oral promises from and\n\nPage 18 of 36\nMW00175\n\nFNMA.MBW.008448\nCONFIDENTIAL\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-11 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 20 of 37\n\nbetween Crump and CAM. Crump\u2019s actions and inactions have proximately caused, allowed\nand facilitated GenStar/GenRe\u2019s sabotage of the CAM/Fannie Mae relationship and contract.\n51. CAM would show that GenStar and GenRe have totally failed to comply with the\nConfidentiality Agreement executed with CAM, through the actions of the Vice President, Ott,\nand have continued to willfully, wantonly and maliciously breach said agreement in refusing\n\nnumerous demands by CAM to restrain the actions of Ott since his departure from GenStar.\n\nCOUNT ONE\n\nTORTIOUS INTERFERENCE WITH\nCONTRACTUAL AND BUSINESS RELATIONS\nBY GENSTAR, GENRE, OTT AND CRUMP\n\n52. Your Plaintiff would re-adopt and re-allege the allegations of the preceding paragraphs\nas though fully copied herein.\n53. Your Plaintiff would show that the facts as alleged set forth a. claim for relief on the\ngrounds that GenStar, Crump, GenRe and their Vice President, Ott (both individually and in his\ncapacity as agent) tortiously, willfully, and intentionally interfered with the contractual relations\nbetween CAM and Fannie Mae, thereby damaging them grievously through the following\nwrongful conduct:\n53.1. GenStar, GenRe and Ott initiated direct contacts with Fannie Mae in'an |\nattempt to diminish and destroy CAM's business relationship with Fannie Mae.\nCAM\u2019s business relationship with Fannie Mae was multifaceted and consisted of\na long history of product and business plan development, joint copyright\n\nownership of the MCRI policy itself, and an agreement that CAM\u2019s compensation\n\nPage 19 of 36\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-11 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 21 of 37\n\nfor its years of work in the development of all aspects of MCRI would be for\nCAM to participate in all MCRI transactions. Crump was aware of these contacts\nand actively conspired to conceal them from CAM in an attempt to protect and\nfarther its own relationship with GenStar and GenRe; also Crump\u2019s negligent,\nintentional and willful acts were calculated to cause damage to CAM\u2019s lawful\n\nbusiness.\n\n53.2. In the first transaction involving GenStar and GenRe, (in February of\n1999), Ott instructed Fannie Mae not to pay CAM's premium invoice and to\nmake direct payments of premium to GenStar. This was apparently his first.\nattempt to cut CAM out of its commi ssion on the Fannie Mae transactions. Ott,\nalthough warned on several occasions by Crump, continued his willful, wanton\nand intentional course of conduct in excluding CAM and Crump from telephone\nconversations and meetings with Fannie Mae. Crump was aware of these actions\nbut failed to take appropriate and meaningful action to stop the misconduct out of\nconcern for its own relationship with GenStar. GenStar, itself, warned Ott not to\npractice retail marketing with Fannie Mae but has totally and completely failed to\ncontrol its own officer and employee and enforce compliance with the\nConfidentiality Agreement, and Crump has correspondingly failed to enforce its\nConfidentiality Agreement with GenStar and CAM and its exclusivity agreements\nwith Crump (to which CAM is a direct and intended third party beneficiary) and\n\ncorrespondingly Crump\u2019s own exclusivity agreement with CAM, thereby\n\nPage 20 of 36\n\nMW00177 FNMA.MBW.008455\nCONFIDENTIAL\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-11 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 22 of 37\n\nviolating its contractual commitments, its fiduciary responsibilities and its\n\nbroker/agent responsibilities to CAM;\n\n53.3. On the first Fannie Mae Aggregation forward delivery transaction, Ott\nattempted to substitute a GenStar insurance policy in an effort not to use the\nCAM/Fannie Mae copyrighted policy. Said policy was a derivative of the CAM\npolicy and relied upon stolen and converted proprietary intellectual property\n\nbelonging to CAM;\n\n53.4. GenStar, GenRe and Ott attempted to cut brokerage commissions to CAM\n\non the GenStar Fannie Mae Aggregation II transaction, in October of 1999;\n\n53.5. GenStar, GenRe and Ott attempted to cut brokerage commissions due\n\nCAM on the Metropolitan Bank Fannie Mae MBS transaction in November of\n\n1999;\n\n53.6. GenStar, GenRe and Ott initiated direct negotiations with Fannie Mae on\nthe forward commitment coverage for GenStar Fannie Mae, Aggregation I, II and\nII] commitments and without including CAM and Crump. This was a direct\nviolation of the agreement to write MCRI exclusively through Crump, and\n\nCrump\u2019s agreement to write MCRI exclusively through CAM. Crump was aware\n\nP 21 of 36\nagen\u2019 MW00178\n\nFNMA.MBW.008456\nCONFIDENTIAL\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-11 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 23 of 37\n\nof this action by GenStar and GenRe, and failed to take any action and conspired\n\nto conceal the actions from CAM;\n\n53.7. Ott claimed credit with Fannie Mae for reinsurer contacts which were\ndeveloped and furnished by Crump and CAM, thereby attempting to remove\nCAM from those transactions. This was accomplished by bringing these\nreinsurers to Fannie Mae for a meeting in December of 1999 without telling CAM\nor Crump of any such meeting, and without disclosing that such reinsurers had in\n\nactuality been introduced by CAM to GenStar and Ott;\n\n53.8. GenStar, GenRe and, Ott conducted retail marketing by direct negotiation\nwith Fannie Mae without including CAM or Crump, over the continuous protest\n\nof CAM;\n\n53.9. GenStar and Ott corresponded directly with Fannie Mae without copying\nCAM or Crump, thereby attempting to create the impression that CAM and\n\nCrump were unnecessary;\n\n53.10. GenStar and Ott held numerous meetings and telephone conversations\n\ndirectly with Fannie Mae without including CAM or Cramp;\n\nPage 22 of 36\nMwo0179 FNMA.MBW.008457\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-11 \u2014 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 24 of 37\n\n53.11. GenStar and Ott sent all premium quotes and premium pricing directly to\n\nFannie Mae without copying CAM or Crump.\n\n53.12. GenStar, GenRe and Ott intentionally interfered with existing CAM\ncontracts by initiating direct discussions with Fannie Mae (the insured) about the\nfeasibility of cutting CAM and Crump brokerage commissions without CAM\u2019s or\n\nCrump\u2019s knowledge or involvement;\n\n53.13. Ott played a direct role in bringing Nicholas Didier to Fannie Mae in\n\nDecember 1999 again excluding Crump and CAM.\n\n53.14. GenStar, GenRe and Ott deliberately cut CAM out of the Metropolitan\ncommercial transaction by appropriating CAM\u2019s client after CAM made proper\n\nintroductions through Crump and GenStar.\n\n54. As a result of the actions of GenStar, GenRe, Ott and Crump, the formerly close\nbusiness relationship between CAM and Fannie Mae no longer exists, and Fannie Mae is no\nlonger willing to accept insurers brought to it by CAM for future aggregations.\n\n55. As stated above and elsewhere in the amended complaint, the actions and omissions of\nGenStar, GenRe, Craig Ott and Crump were negligently, intentionally and willfully done and\n\ncalculated to cause damage to CAM lawful business.\n\nPage 23 of 36\nMwW00180 ENM A.MBW.008458\nCONFIDENTIAL\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-11 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 25 of 37\n\n56. . The actions and omissions of GenRe, GenStar, Craig Ott and Crump were done -\nwith the unlawful purpose of causing damages and loss, without right or justification, and actual\ndamage and loss resulted from their actions and omissions.\n\n57. As a result of the aforedescribed actions, CAM has been damaged in the amount of\nForty-Five Million Seven Hundred Forty-Four Thousand Three Hundred and Twenty Five\n\nDollars ($45,744,325).\n\nCOUNT TWO\n\nTORTIOUS INTERFERENCE WITH\nPROSPECTIVE CONTRACTUAL AND BUSINESS RELATIONS\nBY GENSTAR, GENRE, OTT AND CRUMP\n\n58. Y our Plaintiff would re-adopt and re-allege the allegations of the preceding paragraphs\nas though fully copied herein.\n\n59. The factual allegations in the preceding paragraphs, and the specific factual allegations\ncontained in Count One constitute a claim for intentional interference with prospective business\nrelationships of CAM.\n\n60. As a result of these intentional wrongful actions, CAM has been damaged in the amount\nof Fifty Million Dollars ($50,000,000).\n\nCOUNT THREE\n\nBREACH OF CONTRACT\n61. Y our Plaintiff would re-adopt and re-allege the allegations of the preceding paragraphs\nas though fully copied herein.\n\nFNMA.MBW.008459\nCONFIDENTIAL\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-11 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 26 of 37\n\n62. Your Plaintiff would show that the facts alleged above set forth a claim by CAM\nagainst GenStar and GenRe for breach of its contractual commitment to provide additional\ninsurance coverage of up to Two Billion Dollars ($2,000,000,000.00), despite the detrimental\nreliance upon said agreement by CAM. See specifically the facts alleged in paragraphs 30\nthrough 32 above.\n\n63. As aresult of the breach of its contractual commitment to provide this additional\ninsurance capacity, CAM has been damaged in the amount of Seven Million Thirty-Three\n\nThousand and No/100 Dollars ($7,033.000.00).\n\nCOUNT FOUR\n\nCONVERSION OF INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY AND COPYRIGHT\nAND INTERFERENCE WITH METROPOLITAN BANK TRANSACTION\n\n64. Your Plaintiff would re-adopt and re-allege the allegations of the preceding paragraphs\nas though fully copied herein.\n65. GenStar, GenRe, Craig Ott and Crump breached CAM\u2019s Confidentiality Agreement,\n\ninfringed upon CAM\u2019s copyright and converted CAM\u2019s intellectual property and proprietary\ninformation by taking CAM\u2019s client (Metropolitan Bank), using CAM proprietary\ndocumentation and intellectual property (including but not limited to the CAM Operating\nGuidelines, underwriting standards, policy grids, underwriting procedures, pricing grids,\nconfidential term sheets and due diligence protocols developed and owned by CAM) , and\nCAM\u2019s jointly copyrighted MCRI policy to create a GenStar policy and insure a $100 million\ncommercial Joan transaction. (Metropolitan). CAM had introduced Metropolitan to Crump and\n\nGenStar in June 1998. GenStar\u2019s Craig Ott then made direct contact with the Metropolitan\n\nPage 25 of 36\n\nMW00182\nFNMA.MBW.008460\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-11 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 27 of 37\n\nBank and proceeded to cut CAM out of this transaction and commission income. Crump,\nGenSiar, GenRe were aware of Craig Ott\u2019s conduct, participated and conspired in this conduct to\n\u201d exercise dominion and control over the intellectual property (including, but not limited to CAM -\nOperating Procedures and Insurance Underwriting Guidelines, pricing grids, confidential\ntermsheets and due diligence protocols developed and owned by CAM) inconsistent with CAM\u2019s\nrights.\n66. Crump totally and wholly failed to take any meaningful action to prevent the loss of the\ncommissions through the actions of its insurers and agents and to protect CAM and conspired\nwith GenStar and GenRe to conceal this.\n67. As a result of the wrongful acts of GenStar, GenRe, Crump and Ott, CAM has been\ndamaged through the loss of commission in the amount of Seven Hundred Twenty-Eight\n\nThousand Dollars ($728,000.00).\n\nCOUNT FIVE\n\nCOPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT\n\n68. Your Plaintiff would re-adopt and re-allege the allegations of the preceding\nparagraphs as though fully copied herein.\n\n69. That GenStar, GenRe, Crump and Ott have jointly and severally infringed upon the\ncopyright of CAM with respect to the MCRI policy copyrighted by CAM and Fannie Mae,\nwithout authorization or approval by CAM or Fannie Mae. CAM has no knowledge of any\napproval by Fannie Mae for GenStar, GenRe or Crump to use the MCRI business plan, the\n\nMCRI insurance policy or any derivative thereof. If such approval was given, then CAM would\nPage 26 of 36\nMW00183\n\nFNMA.MBW.008461\nCONFIDENTIAL\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-11 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 28 of 37\n\nassert the claim for violation of the fiduciary duties owed by Fannie Mae to CAM as a joint\ncopyright owner as set forth in Count Ten below.\n70. That as a result of the actions of the Defendants, CAM has been damaged in an amount\n\nnot less than Fifty Million Dollars ($50,000,000.00).\n\nCOUNT SIX\n\nINTENTIONAL BREACH OF CONTRACT (CONFIDENTIALITY\nAGREEMENT) BY CRAIG OTT\n\n71. Your Plaintiff would re-adopt and re-allege the allegations of the preceding paragraphs\nas though fully copied herein.\n\n72. That Ott, since his departure from GenStar has appropriated, used, converted and stolen\nthe copyrighted insurance policy and other intellectual property, ideas, concepts, procedures,\netc., (including but not limited to due diligence protocols and policy models), that were\nacknowledged to be covered by the Confidentiality Agreement executed by himself as Vice\nPresident of GenStar. These provisions are binding upon him even following his-departure, and\nCAM has been damaged thereby.\n\n73. CAM has been damaged by the actions of Ott since his departure from GenStar in an\namount not less than Fifty Million Dollars ($50,000,000.00). Additionally, CAM wouid ask that\nthis Court issue injunctive relief preventing the continued wrongful actions of Ott in violation of\n\nthe Confidentiality Agreement.\n\nCOUNT SEVEN\n\nBREACH OF CONFIDENTIALITY AGREEMENT BY GENSTAR/GEN RE\n\nPage 27 of 36\n00184\nMwo0 ENMA.MBW.008462\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-11 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 29 of 37\n\nFAILURE TO TAKE ACTION TO HALT ACTIONS OF OTT POST DEPARTURE\n\n74. Your Plaintiff would re-adopt and re-allege the allegations of the preceding paragraphs\n\nas though fully copied herein.\n\n75. CAM would show that GenStar/Gen Re have an affirmative duty to enforce the\n\nConfidentiality Agreement it executed with CAM as to its departed Vice President, Ott.\n\n76. CAM would show that GenStar/Gen Re have totally failed to take any action to enforce\n: said Confidentiality Agreement, and as a result, CAM has been damaged in an amount of not less\n\nthan Fifty Million Dollars ($50,000,000.00).\n\nCOUNT EIGHT\n\nBREACH OF CONFIDENTIALITY AGREEMENT BY CRUMP\nFAILURE TO TAKE ACTION TO ENFORCE\nCONFIDENTIALITY AGREEMENT AGAINST GENSTAR, GEN RE\nAND CRUMP\n\n77. Your Plaintiff would re-adopt and re-allege the allegations of the preceding paragraphs -\nas though fully copied herein.\n\n78. CAM would show that Crump had an affirmative duty to enforce the Confidentiality\nAgreement it executed with CAM as to its insurer, GenStar and GenRe, and to GenStar\u2019s\ndeparted Vice President, Ott.\n\n79. CAM would show that Crump has totally failed to take any action to enforce said\nConfidentiality Agreement, and as a result, CAM has been damaged in an amount of not less\n\nthan Fifty Million Dollars ($50,000,000.00).\n\n28 of 36\nPage 28 0 MW00185\n\nMA.MBW.008463\nCONFIDENTIAL\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-11 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 30 of 37\n\nCOUNT NINE\n\nACCOUNTING - AS TO CRUMP\n\n80. Your Plaintiff would re-adopt and re-allege the allegations of the preceding paragraphs\nas though fully copied herein.\n81. That CAM is entitled to an accounting from Crump of the following:\n76.1. An immediate accounting for all sums directly or indirectly received\nfrom any source on Fannie Mae portfolio\u2019s;\n76.2. An immediate accounting for all sums directly or indirectly received from\nany source on the Metropolitan Bank/U.S. Trust transaction;\n76.3 An immediate accounting for all premiums from Fannie Mae\u2019s \u201cAggregation\n1\" which Crump permitted to be transmitted directly to GenStar, in violation of its\n\ncontract;\n\nCOUNT TEN\n\nBREACH OF CONTRACT - FANNIE MAE\n\n82. Your Plaintiff would re-adopt and re-allege the allegations of the preceding paragraphs\n\nas though fully copied herein.\n\n83. The allegations set forth above state a claim for relief against Fannie Mae for breach of\ncontract.\n84. Fannie Mae and CAM entered into a contractual relationship whereby CAM agreed to\n\ndevote substantial time, effort, expertise and expense to the development of a business plan\n\nPage 29 of 36\n\nMw00186 FNMA.MBW.008464\nCONFIDENTIAL\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-11 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 31 of 37\n\nwhereby Fannie Mae would be able to lay off first loss risk on 1) individual multifamily loans,\n2) pools of multifamily mortgages, 3) mixed securitizations containing commercial and\nmultifamily mortgages, 4) securitization of existing pools and to include the Fannie Me\nAggregation Facility, Fannie Mae DUS Lender at-risk portfolio and Regional Bank multifamiliy\nmortgage products through the use of insurance. This business plan included, but was not\nlimited to the following: 1) the development of the MCRI insurance policy; 2) the development\nof insurance underwriting guidelines, 3) creation and keeper of all policy drafts, 4) creation and\ndevelopment of insurance operating procedures, 5) establishment of pricing grids, and 6)\ncreation and development of due diligence protocols, and 7) locating \u201cTriple-A rated\u201d insurance\ncarriers willing to issue such policies and coordinating efforts with those carriers in the\ndevelopment of the surance policy. In order to compensate CAM for its time, efforts, expertise\nand expense, CAM was to be the sole and exclusive agent for Fannie Mae in the procurement of\nthe MCRI insurance. CAM has fulfilled its commitment to Fannie Mae, and Fannie Mae has\nbreached this agreement by failing and refusing to allow CAM to serve as agent for Fannie Mae\nand instead is using other entities. for the procurement of the MCRI insurance and other\nderivative first loss risk coverage.\n\n85. As.a result of Fannie Mae\u2019s breach of its contractual relationship with CAM, CAM has\nbeen damaged in the loss of commissions over the remaining life of the 95 year joint copyright in\n\nthe amount of One Hundred Million Dollars ($100,000,000) |\n\nCOUNT ELEVEN\n\nPage 30 of 36\nMW00187\n\nFNMA.MBW.008465\nCONFIDENTIAL\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-11 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 32 of 37\n\nBREACH OF FIDUCIARY DUTY BY FANNIE MAE AS TO\n\nJOINT COPYRIGHT HOLDER\n\n86. Your Plaintiff would re-adopt and re-allege the allegations of the preceding paragraphs\nas though fully copied herein\n\n87. That Fannie Mae and CAM are the joint copyright owners of the MCRI insurance\npolicy developed by CAM.\n\n88. That as a joint copyright owner, Fannie Mae is alleged to have given permission to\nothers, specifically GenStar, to create a derivative for non-Fannie Mae transactions and use said\npolicy, without accounting to CAM for same and without obtaining CAM\u2019s permission.\n\n89. . That as a co-owner of the policy, Fannie Mae is under a fiduciary obligation to its co-\nowner, CAM, to use the policy to the interests of both CAM and Fannie Mae, and to account to\nCAM for any and all economic benefit derived from the use of the policy and any and all\n\nderivative use of the policy.\n\n90. Fannie Mae has breached its fiduciary obligations to CAM as the co-owner of the\ncopyright and has used the policy, and derivatives of the policy so as to deprive CAM of any of\nthe benefits thereof.\n\n91. CAM has been damaged by Fannie Mae\u2019s breach of its obligations to CAM as a co-\n\nowner of the copyrighted policy in the amount of One Hundred Million Dollars ($100,000,000).\n\nCOUNT TWELVE\n\nCONVERSION AND MISAPPROPRIATION OF INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY\n\nBY FANNIE MAE\n\nPage 31 of 36\nMW00188 ~ NMA. MBW.008466\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-11 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 33 of 37\n\n92. Your Plaintiff would re-adopt and re-allege the allegations of the preceding\nparagraphs as though fully copied herein.\n\n93. That in addition to the copyrighted policy referenced in the preceding Count, Fannie\nMae has converted and misappropriated certain intellectual property and work-product of CAM,\nincluding but not limited to the insurance underwriting guidelines, insurance operating\nprocedures, pricing grids, confidential term sheets and due diligence protocols developed by\nCAM.\n\n94. That as a result of Fannie Mae\u2019s conversion and theft of this confidential and\nproprietary information, CAM has been damaged in the amount of One Hundred Milhon Dollars\n\n($100,000,000).\n\nCOUNT THIRTEEN\n\nPUNITIVE DAMAGES AGAINST ALL DEFENDANTS\n\n95. Your Plaintiff would re-adopt and re-allege the allegations of the preceding paragraphs\nas though fully copied herein.\n\n96. That the above-alleged actions of all of the defendants are intentional, willful and\nwrongful, and were committed with the intent to damage CAM, both from the intentional breach\nof the various agreements executed between CAM and the various defendants, as well as the\nintentional interference with CAM\u2019s business and contractual relationships with third parties, in\nan attempt to convert proprietary information to the Defendants\u2019 own use. As a result, your\nPlaintiff would pray that this Court award punitive damages against each of the Defendants, in an\n\namount to be shown at the trial of this action in an amount reasonably calculated to punish the\n\nPage 32 of 36\nMW00189\n\nMA.MBW.008467\nCONFIDENTIAL\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-11 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 34 of 37\n\nDefendants and to deter such wrongful conduct by them and those-similarly situated. Your\nPlaintiff would pray that this be in an amount equal to no less than ten percent (10%) of the net\nvalue of \u00e9ach of the Defendants, but in no event Jess than One Hundred Million Dollars\n\n($100,000,000.00).\n\nWHEREFORE, PREMISES CONSIDERED, your Plaintiff would pray for the following\nTelief:\n\n1. A judgment against each of the Defendants GenStar, GenRe, Ott and Crump, for\nactual damages in the amount of Forty-Five Million Seven Hundred Forty-Four Thousand Three -\nHundred and Twenty Five Dollars ($45,744,325) for the tortious interference with the existing\nand contract and in the amount of Fifty Million Dollars ($50,000,000) for actual damages\nresulting from the intentional interference with future business relationships between CAM and\nFannie Mae as set forth in Count One;\n\n2. A judgment against GenStar and GenRe in the amount of Seven Million Thirty-Three\nThousand ($7,033,000) for damages resulting from GenStar/GenRe\u2019s breach of contract to\nprovide an additional Two Billion Dollars in msurance coverage.\n\n3. A judgment against GenStar, GenRe, Ott and Crump in the amount of Seven Hundred\nTwenty-Eight Thousand Dollars ($728,000.00) for the loss of commissions through the\nconversion of the policy and intellectual property on the Metropolitan Bank transaction as set\nforth in Count Three above;\n\n4. A judgment against GenStar, GenRe, Ott and Crump for copyright infringment as set\n\nforth in Count Four above in the amount of Fifty Million Dollars ($50,000,000).\n\nPage 33 of 36\nMW00190 w.008468\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-11 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 35 of 37\n\n5. A judgment against Craig Ott in the amount of Fifty Million Dollars ($50,000,000) for\nthe breach of the Confidentiality Agreement as set forth in Count Five.\n\n6. A judgment against GenStar and GenRe in the amount of Fifty Million Dollars\n($50,000,000) for the breach of the Confidentiality Agreement by GenStar, Gen Re and the\nfailure of same to enforce the terms of the Confidentiality Agreement against Craig Ott upon his\ndeparture from Gen Star; .\n\n7. A judgment against Crump in the amount of Fifty Million Dollars ($50,000,000), for\ndamages suffered by CAM as a result of Crump\u2019s violation of the Confidentiality Agreement,\nbrokerage agreement, exclusivity agreement and agency relationship with CAM and the failure \u2014\nto enforce its exclusivity agreement and confidentiality agreement with GenStar and GenRe;\n\n8. An accounting from Crump as described in Count Eight, above, at the expense of\nCrump;\n\n9. A judgment against Fannie Mae in the amount of $100,000,000 for the breach of its\ncontractual agreement with CAM to be the sole agent for Fannie Mae in the procurement of\nMCRI and all derivatives therefrom as set forth in Count Nine;\n\n10. A judgment against Fannie Mae in the amount of $100,000,000 for damages suffered\nby CAM as a proximate result of Fannie Mae\u2019s intentional breach of its duties to CAM asa joint\ncopyright owner and for an accounting as to all economic benefits which Fannie Mae has reaped\nas a result of its use of the MCRI policy and all derivatives therefrom;\n\n11. A judgment against Fannie Mae in the amount of $100,000,000 for the\nmisappropriation and conversion of intellectual, proprietary property of CAM as described in\n\nCount Eleven;\n\nPage 34 of 36\nMW00191\n\nFNMA.MBW.008469\nCONFIDENTIAL\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-11 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 36 of 37\n\n12. A permanent injunction against Craig Ott to prevent him from using or in any way,\ndirectly or indirectly appropriating or converting the copyrights and intellectual property of\n\nCAM; and\n\n13. Punitive Damages jointly and severally in the amount of Two Hundred Million\nDollars or such amount as is calculated to punish the defendants for such wrongful conduct and\n\nto deter such conduct in the future from the Defendants and others similarly situated.\n\nFor this and such other and general relief as may be just and proper in the premises, does \u2014\n\nyour Plaintiff now and ever pray.\n\ni\n\nCAM FINANCIAL SERVICES, INC.\n\nBY: BYRD & WISER\n\nBY: NICHOLAS VAN WISER\n\nNICHOLAS VAN WISER\n\nMs. Bar No. 7339\n\nand\n\nMATTHEW G. MESTAYER\n\nMs. Bar No. 9646 . FNMA MBW.008470\n\nIFIDENTIAL\nPage 35 of 36 CONFID\n\nMW00192\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-11 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 37 of 37\n\nByrd & Wiser, Attorneys at Law\nP.O. Box 1939\n\nBiloxi, Ms. 39533\n\n(228) 432-8123 (telephone)\n(228) 432-7029 (fax)\nnwiser@byrdwiser.com\n\nCERTIFICATE\n\nL NICHOLAS VAN WISER, of counsel for Plaintiff do hereby certify that I have this\ndate mailed a true and correct copy of the above and foregoing Notice, postage prepaid, by\nmeans of United States Mail to John Whitfield, Esq., Attorney for Gen Star, at North Court One,\nSuite 300, 1905 23\" Avenue, Gulfport, MS 39501; David Clark, Esq., Attorney for Crump\nInsurance, at P.O. Box 1789, Jackson, MS 39215-1789 and Joe Sam Owen, attorney for Craig\nOtt, P.O. Drawer 420 Gulfport, Ms. 39501. .\n\nDATED, this __ the day of December 2001.\n\nNICHOLAS VAN WISER, ESQ.\n\nPage 36 of 36\n\n: A.MBW.008471\nMW00193 FNM SO ENTIAL\n","ocr_status":1,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:45:52-07:00","document_number":"33","attachment_number":10,"pacer_doc_id":"04501888716","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":2,"description":"Exhibit Exhibit I - CAM Amended Complaint","acms_document_guid":""},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686751/","id":2686751,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/33/11/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.722943-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:10.074083-08:00","sha1":"a6cc5ae36d2b9501cb2f974bc29a4db0762c9165","page_count":4,"file_size":77795,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.11.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.11.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":"Case 1:05-cv-01483-UDB Document 33-12 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 1 of 4\n\nEXHIBIT J\n\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-12 Filed 06/21/2007 Page2of4\n* CATT ere Dis | bee\n\n; IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\nFOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF MISSISSIPPI\nSOUTHERN DIVISION\n\nCAM FINANCIAL SERVICES, INC., PLAINTIFF\nVS CIVIL ACTION NO. 1:01cv314GuRo\n\n~\n\nGENERAL STAR NATIONAL INSURANCE\nCOMPANY; GENERAL STAR INDEMNITY\nCOMPANY; GENERAL STAR MANAGEMENT\nCOMPANY; GENERAL RE CORPORATION;\nGENERAL REINSURANCE CORPORATION;\nCRUMP INSURANCE SERVICES OF MEMPHIS,\nINC.; CRAIG OTT, INDIVIDUALLY AND IN\n\nHIS REPRESENTATIVE CAPACITY AS VICE\nPRESIDENT OF GENERAL STAR\nMANAGEMENT COMPANY; FEDERAL\nNATIONAL MORTGAGE ASSOCIATION\n\n(FANNIE MAE) DEFENDANTS\nAND\n\nCOUNTER-PLAINTIFF\nFEDERAL NATIONAL MORTGAGE JURY TRIAL DEMANDED\n\nASSOCIATION (\u201cFANNIE MAE\u201d)\nVS.\nCOUNTER-DEFENDANT\nCAM FENANCIAL SERVICES, INC,\nORDER\n\nConsidering the Joint Motion for Dismissal with Prejudice filed by plaintiff, CAM\nFinancial Services, Inc. (\u201cCAM\u201d), and defendant, Federal National Mortgage Association\n(\u201cFannie Mae\u201d), by and through their attorneys, who have jointly moved the Court for an Order\nof Dismissal pursuant to the provisions of FED. R. CIV. P. 41(a)(2), dismissing with prejudice\nthe claims herein, and the Court having received and considered the Motion and the evidence\nadduced in support thereof, and finding that the motion is well taken, and that the relief sought\ntherein should be granted, counsel for the parties, having executed an Arbitration Agreement,\n\nagreeing to submit the remaining claims in this matter to binding arbitration, and the parties\n\n524466.2\n\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-12 \u2014 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 3 of 4\n\nhaving agreed to a dismissal, with prejudice, of all claims, in anticipation of the pending\n. arbitration.\nIT IS THEREFORE ORDERED:\nL \u2018That the captioned matter is hereby dismissed, in its entirety, with prejudice; and\n\n2... That each party shall bear its own costs relative to the dismissal entered hereby.\n\n\u201cg0 ORDERED AND ADJUDGED this O say of \u201cCE CerrrGga004.\n\niy\nUNITED STATES D JUDGE\n\nPREPARED BY AND APPROVED:\n\nSignature Affixed\n\nGERARD E. WIMBERLY, JR. (MS #43132)\n\u00ae McGlinchey Stafford, PLLC\n\n643 Magazine Street\n\nNew Orleans, Louisiana 70130\n\nPhone: (504) 586-1200\n\nFax; (504) 596-2800\n\nAttorneys for Fannie Mae\n\nAPPROVED:\n\nsmmpkin.& Reeves, PLL\n160 Main Street\n- Biloxi, Mississippi 39530\nAttorneys for CAM Financial Services, Inc.\n\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-12 Filed 06/21/2007 Page4of4\n\nhaving agreed to a dismissal, with prejudice, of all claims, in anticipation of the pending\n\narbitration.\nIT IS THEREFORE ORDERED:\n1. That the captioned matter is hereby dismissed, in its entirety, with prejudice; and\n2. That each party shall bear its own costs relative to the dismissal entered hereby.\n\nSO ORDERED AND ADJUDGED this day of 2004.\n\nUNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE\n\nPREPARED BY AND APPROVED:\n\n- GERARD E. WIMBERLY, JR-(MS #43132)\n\nMcGlinchey Stafford, PLLC\n643 Magazine Street\n\nNew Orleans, Louisiana 70130\nPhone: (504) 586-1200\n\nFax: (504) 596-2800\nAttorneys for Fannie Mae\n\nAPPROVED:\n\nJAMES R. REEVES, JR. (MS #9519)\nLumpkin & Reeves, PLLC\n\n160 Main Street\n\nBiloxi, Mississippi 39530\n\nAttorneys for CAM Financial Services, Inc.\n\n524466.2\n","ocr_status":1,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:41:16-07:00","document_number":"33","attachment_number":11,"pacer_doc_id":"04501888983","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":2,"description":"Exhibit Exhibit J - CAM Dismissal Order","acms_document_guid":""},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686752/","id":2686752,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/33/12/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.731155-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:10.093442-08:00","sha1":"9eff4848ac4637e12bcbda489c05ea5d264de88e","page_count":11,"file_size":557813,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.12.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.12.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":"Case 1:05-cv-01483-UDB Document 33-13 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 1 of 11\n\nEXHIBIT K\n\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-UDB Document 33-13 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 2 of 11\n\nIN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\nFOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA\n\nMARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS, : Civil Action No. 1:05CV01483\nPlaintiff, : Judge John D. Bates\nvs.\n: PLAINTIFF MARIALICE\nFEDERAL NATIONAL MORTGAGE : BATHRUS WILLIAMS\nASSOCIATION, et al. : ANSWER TO\n: INTERROGATORIES\nDefendants.\n\nPLAINTIFF\u2019S ANSWERS TO DEFENDANTS\u2019 INTERROGATORIES\nINTERROGATORY NO. 1: Describe in detail each and every fact or\n\nstatement made by any Defendant that supports your allegation that Defendants\n\ndenied you the opportunity to make and enforce a contract on the basis of race\nwith respect to the May 2001 Proposal.\n\nANSWER TO INTERROGATORY NO. 1: This answer is based on a\nsearch of my own memory and on documents in my possession. | did not have\nthe benefit of my computer records, because it crashed and none of the\ndocuments on it could be recovered. Examination of documents in the\npossession or under custody and control of Defendants, which were requested\nby me and which have not yet been produced, | expect should permit me to\nfurther elaborate on this answer.\n\nNo statements were made other than one by Defendant Richard Lawch. Mr.\nLawch made the statement in the doorway of his office after Plaintiff was in a\nmeeting with the Senior Vice President Lou Hoyes and Bert Lee, Charlotte\nHolloman, and others to discuss business opportunities. Mr. Lawch stated that\nhe was working with an \u201cinternational broker\u201d for doing some insurance business\nfor the MBS pools.\n\nIt was the actions, not the statements that made me aware that Fannie Mae was\nexcluding me from the pool of insurance brokers who were doing business with\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-UDB Document 33-13 \u2014 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 3 of 11\n\nFannie Mae at the time. Fannie Mae and these brokers were doing business in\naccordance to concepts that | had developed while at Fannie Mae and was\npromised that | would be allowed to develop once | left Fannie Mae.\n\nT AT : Describe in detail each and every fact or\nstatement made by any Defendant that supports your allegation that Defendants\ntortiously interfered with your Joint Venture or Co-Brokerage Agreement or any\nother business relationship with CAM Financial.\n\nANSWER TO INTERROGATORY NO. 2: This answer is based on a\nsearch of my own memory and on documents in my possession. | did not have\nthe benefit of my computer records, because it crashed and none of the\ndocuments on it could be recovered. Examination of documents in the\npossession or under custody and control of Defendants, which were requested\nby me and which have not yet been produced, | expect should permit me to\nfurther elaborate on this answer.\n\nThe facts supporting my allegation that Defendants tortiously interfered with my\nJoint Venture or Co-Brokerage Agreement with CAM is the letter that | was asked\nto write by Grace Huebscher and Rhoda Newman. | was told to write a letter to\nFannie Mae indicating that | was not in business with CAM Financial. | was told\nthat until that letter was forthcoming, | would have no more meetings with Fannie\nMae regarding business development.\n\nI RR RY NO. 3: Describe in detail the May 2001\nProposal, including any expected financial arrangement and benefits to you\n\nassociated with that Proposal.\n\nANSWER TO INTERROGATORY NO. 3: This answer is based on a\nsearch of my own memory and on documents in my possession. | did not have\nthe benefit of my computer records, because it crashed and none of the\ndocuments on it could be recovered. Examination of documents in the\npossession or under custody and control of Defendants, which were requested\nby me and which have not yet been produced, | expect should permit me to\nfurther elaborate on this answer.\n\nThe May 2001 Proposal entailed the laying off of risk associated with the\nDelegated Underwriting and Servicing Program. Many of the lenders in this\nprestigious program were having problems with their balance sheet because they\nwere carrying a substantial amount of risk on the loans that they were selling or\nsecuritizing with Fannie Mae. The idea was that while the first 1% of the risk was\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-13 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 4 of 11\n\ncarried by the lender, the next level of risk was shared on a parri passu basis by\nFannie Mae and the lender, up to 20% of the amount of the loan. | contacted\nnumerous insurance companies, came up with alternative proposals including\nthe use of a captive insurance company in order to lay off that risk for both\nFannie Mae and the lender.\n\nWe obtained quotes from the insurance companies indicating that the insurance\nwould range up to 25 basis points per annum for the lender but that if Fannie\nMae were to opt in to the insurance; the cost would be reduced to the lender.\nThe commission on that insurance cost would be approximately 10% or 2.5 basis\npoints on the amount of the loan. At that time Fannie Mae had approximately $9\nbillion of DUS loans and if the program had been okayed by Fannie Mae we\nwould have earned $22 million. -\n\nINTERROGATORY NO. 4: Describe in detail each and every\n\nmeeting (including, but not limited to, the time, place, attendees, and topics\ndiscussed), correspondence, or communication you had with Defendants\nconcerning the May 2001 Proposal.\n\nANSWER TO INTERROGATORY NO. 4: This answer is based ona\nsearch of my own memory and on documents in my possession. | did not have\nthe benefit of my computer records, because it crashed and none of the\ndocuments on it could be recovered. Examination of documents in the\npossession or under custody and control of Defendants, which were requested\nby me and which have not yet been produced, | expect should permit me to\nfurther elaborate on this answer.\n\n| did not meet regularly with the Defendant regarding the May 2001 proposal.\nWe talked on the phone and wrote e-mails. The point is that my job was to\nsecure the insurance and the DUS lenders as clients and bring the deal back to\nFannie Mae. We worked with Washington Mortgage, Lend Lease, Red Capital\nMortgage, and others. We only contacted Fannie Mae for information requested\nby the insurance companies or the lenders.\n\nINTERROGATORY NO. 5: Describe in detail how the business or\n\ncontracts proposed by you in the May 2001 Proposal were awarded to Craig Ott,\nincluding exactly what business or contracts were awarded to Craig Ott and how\n\nthey were the same or similar to the business or contracts proposed by you.\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-UDB Document 33-13 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 5of 11\n\nANSWER TO INTERROGATORY NO. 5: This answer is based on a\nsearch of my own memory and on documents in my possession. | did not have\nthe benefit of my computer records, because it crashed and none of the\ndocuments on it could be recovered. Examination of documents in the\npossession or under custody and control of Defendants, which were requested\nby me and which have not yet been produced, | expect should permit me to\nfurther elaborate on this answer.\n\n| cannot testify at this time about what business or how much business that\nFannie Mae gave to Craig Ott. This matter is within the knowledge of Fannie\nMae and | await Defendants\u2019 discovery responses.\n\nINTERROGATORY NO. 6: Describe in detail each and every\ncorrespondence or communication between you and Fannie Mae between 2001\nand the present, including date, location, parties to the correspondence or\n\ncommunication and subject of the correspondence or communication.\n\nANSWER TO INTERROGATORY NO. 6: This answer is based ona\nsearch of my own memory and on documents in my possession. | did not have\nthe benefit of my computer records, because it crashed and none of the\ndocuments on it could be recovered. Examination of documents in the\npossession or under custody and control of Defendants, which were requested\nby me and which have not yet been produced, | expect should permit me to\nfurther elaborate on this answer.\n\nMost of my communication with Fannie Mae was by phone or by e-mail. | have\nhad two computer crashes since | began working with Fannie Mae in 1998 to\nbring these opportunities to fruition.\n\nINTERROGATORY NO. 7: Describe in detail the contents and\n\nscope of your Joint Venture or Co-Brokerage Agreement.\n\nANSWER TO INTERROGATORY NO. 7: This answer is based on a\nsearch of my own memory and on documents in my possession. | did not have\nthe benefit of my computer records, because it crashed and none of the\ndocuments on it could be recovered. Examination of documents in the\npossession or under custody and control of Defendants, which were requested\nby me and which have not yet been produced, | expect should permit me to\nfurther elaborate on this answer.\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-UDB Document 33-13 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 6 of 11\n\n| had a simple, common co-brokerage agreement with CAM Financial that\nentailed paying them a commission in the event that they secured the insurance\nthat | needed on any of the proposals that | was working on. These proposals\nranged from insuring pools of automobile loans, charter school loans, captive .\ninsurance and reinsurance, etc.\n\nINTERROGATORY NO. 8: Describe in detail each and every\n\ncorrespondence or communication between you and CAM Financial concerning\nthe Joint Venture or Co-Brokerage Agreement.\n\nANSWER TO INTERROGATORY NO. 8: The detail of the co-brokerage\nwith CAM was a co-brokerage agreement.\n\nINTERROGATORY NO. 9: Describe in detail each and every\n\ncommunication or correspondence evidencing that Defendants \u201cactively\ndiscouraged\u201d CAM Financial from dealing with you, as referenced in Paragraph\n61 of your Amended Complaint, including how, when and from whom you\nlearned of this communication or correspondence.\n\nANSWER TO INTERROGATORY NO. 9: This answer is based on a\nsearch of my own memory and on documents in my possession. | did not have\nthe benefit of my computer records, because it crashed and none of the\ndocuments on it could be recovered. . Examination of documents in the\npossession or under custody and control of Defendants, which were requested\nby me and which have not yet been produced, | expect should permit me to\nfurther elaborate on this answer.\n\n| learned of Defendant actively discouraging CAM Financial from doing business\nwith me as a result of phone conversations from Bob Jones, President of CAM\nFinancial. | cannot recall the dates of these conversations.\n\nINTERROGATORY NO. 10: Describe in detail each and every\n\ncommunication or correspondence of \u201cknowingly false and defamatory\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-UDB Document 33-13 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 7 of 11\n\ninformation\u201d about you by Defendants to CAM Financial, as referenced in\nParagraph 62 of your Amended Complaint, including how, when and from whom\nyou learned of this communication or correspondence.\n\nANSWER TO INTERROGATORY NO. 10: This answer is based on a\nsearch of my own memory and on documents in my possession. | did not have\nthe benefit of my computer records, because it crashed and none of the\ndocuments on it could be recovered. Examination of documents in the\npossession or under custody and control of Defendants, which were requested\nby me and which have not yet been produced, | expect should permit me to\nfurther elaborate on this answer.\n\n| learned of false and defamatory information about me being communicated to\nCAM Financial through telephone conversations with Bob Jones, President of\nCAM Financial. | cannot recall the dates of these conversations.\n\nINTERROGATORY NO. 11: Describe in detail the circumstances\n\nthrough which the Joint Venture or Co-Brokerage Agreement was terminated\n(including, but not limited to, how notification occurred and by whom.)\n\nANSWER TO INTERROGATORY NO. 11:\n\nThe Co-Brokerage Agreement expired with CAM.\n\nINTERROGATORY NO. 12: Describe in detail the circumstances\n\nthrough which you learned of CAM Financial's lawsuit against Fannie Mae\n(including, but not limited to, how and when you were notified and by whom.)\n\nANSWER TO INTERROGATORY NO, 12: | learned of CAM Financial's\nlawsuit against Fannie Mae from Bob Jones, President, CAM Financial. Fannie\nMae was not originally a defendant in the lawsuit by CAM Financial against the\ninsurance companies. Fannie Mae was added to the lawsuit later by the judge |\nbelieve. | cannot recall the dates.\n\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-UDB Document 33-13 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 8 of 11\n\nINTERROGATORY NO. 13: Describe in detail how you calculate your\nlosses and damages at the amounts listed in Paragraph 86 of your Amended\nComplaint, and specify whether such losses and damages relate to the May\n2001 Proposal, or the Joint Venture or Co-Brokerage Agreement, or both.\n\nANSWER TO INTERROGATORY NO. 13: This answer is based on a\nsearch of my own memory and on documents in my possession. | did not have\nthe benefit of my computer records, because it crashed and none of the\ndocuments on it could be recovered. Examination of documents in the\npossession or under custody and control of Defendants, which were requested\nby me and which have not yet been produced, | expect should permit me to\nfurther elaborate on this answer.\n\nLosses were calculated based upon the amount of potential business that Fannie\nMae did using structures developed by me. Generally speaking, the fees ranged\nabout 25 basis points annually for the insurance. In some instances, the fees\nwere as high as 56 basis points (Metropolitan Savings Bank MBS transaction)\nand the broker's fee is approximately 10% of the premium fee. Annual reports\nfrom Fannie Mae reflect that about 2 billion of MBS one off transactions were\nclosed annually. Substantially more MBS were issued with the DUS porifolio. |\nwould have no way of knowing exactly what the credit enhancement\narrangements were for all of these transactions and the extent to which\ninsurance was used. Fannie Mae would know this.\n\nINTERROGATORY NO. 14: List and describe each and every\n\nexpense you incurred in reliance on Fannie Mae\u2019s alleged promises and\nassurances to conduct business with you, and identify for each expense whether\nthe expense was for the May 2001 Proposal, the Joint Venture or Co-Brokerage\nAgreement, both, or neither, and also identify whether each expense was used\nsolely for the identified project or agreement or for other business purposes as\n\nwell, with Fannie Mae or otherwise.\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-UDB Document 33-13 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 9 of 11\n\nANSWER TO INTERROGATORY NO. 14: | left Fannie Mae after a lengthy\ndiscussion with Lou Hoyes, the then Vice President of Multifamily for Fannie\nMae. Based upon discussion and the letter that Mr. Hoyes had sent to CAM\nFinancial, it was expected that nearly $1 billion of multifamily business would be\ndone using the insurance credit enhancement that | developed for Fannie Mae\nover the next year after | left. On the strength of those promises, | spent:\n\ne Rent at $1,450.00 per month\n\ne Phone and office equipment at $1,000.00 per month\n\ne Travel to visit DUS lenders, conferences, especially MBA conferences\n\nand insurance companies at $1,500.00 per month\n\ne Office assistant at first $2,000.00 and then at $3,000.00 per month\n\nINTERROGATORY NO. 15: List the name, address, and telephone\n\nnumber of each individual likely to have information that you may use to support\nyour claims, describing fully for each individual the information they will likely\n\nhave.\n\nANSWER TO INTERROGATORY NO. 15: Names of individuals who can\nattest to these efforts:\ne Harvey Hartsfield, 742 Aspen Street NW; Washington, DC 20011; 202-\n352-6964\nConway Downing\nChris Tawa, Lend Lease, no address\nBob Jones, President, CAM Financial, Gulfport, Mississippi\nRhoda Newman, Fannie Mae\nJane Harrison\nGrace Huebscher, Fannie Mae\nJeff Webb and others at AIG Insurance\nJK Larsen, Lend Lease Bovis\nEric Rosenfield\nStephen Noble, Zurich Re\nMarsh Mac\nRed Mortgage Capital\nAries Capital\nSwiss Re\nThe DC Department of Insurance Securities and Banking\nRichard Lawch, Fannie Mae\n\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-13 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 10 of 11\n\nAll of the companies and individuals above had extensive dealings with me while\n| was trying to develop credit enhancement and risk reduction techniques using\ninsurance products. The ultimate goal for all of the clients and insurance\ncompanies was to lay off the risk to lenders while insuring losses to protect\n\ninvestors including to protect Fannie Mae.\nx on .\n\nMarialice Balthrus Williams\nJanuary 8, 2006\n\nAFFIRMATION OF PLAINTIFF\u2019S ANSWERS\n\nSubscribed and sworn before a Notary Public in Washington, District of\n\u2018Columbia, this 8th day of January 2007, |, Marialice Bathrus Williams, Plaintiff,\nstate that | believe that the answers stated in response to Defendants\u2019\ninterrogatories are true and accurate, to the best of my knowledge and\n\ninformation.\n\nMarialice Bathrus Williams\n/ stary Public\nMy Commission expires: Jl | G \\\\\n\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-13 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 11 of 11\n\nCertificate of Service\n\n| certify that a copy of Plaintiffs Affirmed Answers to Defendants\u2019 Interrogatories\nwas hand delivered on January 8, 2007, to counsel for Defendants, Sarah\nGoldfrank, Evelyn Becker and Kyra Grundeman, O'Melveny & Myers LLP\n1625 Eye Street, NW, Washington, DC 20006-4001.\n\nBrian Lederer\n\n10\n","ocr_status":1,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:43:42-07:00","document_number":"33","attachment_number":12,"pacer_doc_id":"04501888653","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":2,"description":"Exhibit Exhibit K - Williams Interrogatory Responses","acms_document_guid":""},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686753/","id":2686753,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/33/13/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.739245-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:10.108419-08:00","sha1":"6b05fb2a1c5bb8102d7f9d783934276f7d11ab20","page_count":12,"file_size":310893,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.13.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.13.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":"Case 1:05-cv-01483-UDB Document 33-14 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 1 of 12\n\nEXHIBIT L\n\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-14 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 2 of 12\n\noT IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\n2 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF MISSISSIPPI\n3 Southern Division\n4 ------------------ x\n\n5 CAM FINANCIAL SERVICES, INC.,\n\n6 Plaintiff, : Case No.\n\n7. : 1:01cv314BrR\n\n8 GENERAL STAR NATIONAL INSURANCE\n\n9 COMPANY; GENERAL STAR INDEMNITY\n\n10 COMPANY; GENERAL STAR MANAGEMENT\n11 COMPANY, GENERAL RE CORPORATION;\n\n12 GENERAL REINSURANCE CORPORATION;\n\n13 CRUMP INSURANCE SERVICES OF MEMPHIS,:\n14 INC.; CRAIG OTT, INDIVIDUALLY AND :\n\n15 IN HIS REPRESENTATIVE CAPACITY AS:\n\n16 VICE PRESIDENT OF GENERAL STAR\n\n17 MANAGEMENT COMPANY; FEDERAL NATIONAL:\n18 MORTGAGE ASSOCIATION (FANNIE MAB), :\n\n19 Defendants.\n\n20 ------------------ X\n\n21 Washington, D.C.\n\n22 Monday, March 17, 2003\n\n23 Videotaped deposition of MARIALICE\n\n24 WILLIAMS, a witness herein, called for examination by\n\n25 counsel for Defendant Fannie Mae, in the above-\n\nMarch 17, 2003 FM of MAW Page 1\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.001532\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-14 \u2014 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 3of12\n\n00002\n1 entitled matter, pursuant to subpoena, the witness\n\n2 being duly sworn by SUSAN L. CIMINELLI, a Notary\n3 Public in and for the District of Columbia, taken at\n\n4 the offices of Steptoe & Johnson, 1330 Connecticut\n\n5 Avenue, N.W., Washington, D.C., at 1:23 p.m., Monday,\n6 March 17, 2003, and the proceedings being taken down\n7 by Stenotype by SUSAN L. CIMINELLI, CRR, RPR, and\n8 transcribed under her direction.\n\n9\n\n10\n\n11\n\n12\n\n13\n\n14\n\n15\n\n16\n\n17\n\n18\n\n19\n\n20\n\n2]\n\n22\n\n23\n\n24\n\n25\n\nMarch 17, 2003 FM of MAW Page 2\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.001533\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JUDB Document 33-14 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 4of 12\n\n00037\n1 QQ. Memorandum, memoranda, do you keep copies\n\n2 of memoranda?\n\n3. A. Yes.\n\n4 QQ. Business reports, that kind of thing? If\n\n5 you would, just please describe for me. --\n\n6 <A. Yes. And everything --\n\n7  Q. The kinds of things you keep?\n\n8 A. Everything that I kept in my office that\n\n9 related to Fannie Mae was sent to you pursuant to a\n10 subpoena, and unfortunately, I had a computer crash;\n11 and at the time I had the computer crash, I was\n\n12 talking to someone on the telephone who knows I had\n13 that crash and much, most of the material in my\n\n14 computer was lost and I had to get a brand-new\n\n15 computer. I sent my hard drive out to a maintenance\n16 person to attempt to recover what were thousands of\n17 documents that I thought were important, and I was\n18 not able to retrieve them.\n\n19 Q. Okay. Ms. Williams, that's a good segue\n\n20 into my next couple of questions about the return on\n21 your subpoena. Exhibit, the second exhibit, Exhibit\n22 2 is the subpoena and then attached to it is an\n\n23 Exhibit A. If you would turn to that, please.\n\n24 A. Exhibit A.\n\n25 Q. Are you there? Just for the record --\n\nMarch 17, 2003 FM of MAW Page 37\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.001568\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-14 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 5of12\n\n00088\n1 honest effort on Fannie Mae's part to do business\n\n2 with me, since I had actually come up with the\n\n3 concept and closed the first transactions that\n\n4 involved credit risk insurance.\n\n5 Every person that I know who has left\n\n6 Fannie Mae who has done something of that nature has\n7 always been rewarded with an opportunity to work with\n8 Fannie Mae when they were not fired from their\n\n9 position.\n\n10 Therefore, my thought it was very\n\n11 important --\n\n12 BY MR. WIMBERLY:\n\n13. Q. Ms. Williams, I'm going to object to your\n\n14 answer as nonresponsive to the question.\n\n15 A. You asked me why I sent it and I am\n\n16 telling you why I sent it. Because I spent\n\n17 considerable amount of money and time trying to\n\n18 honestly do business with Fannie Mae and it was clear\n19 from this message that they were not doing anything\n20 but taking my time and attention and using that with\n21 other people.\n\n22 That's why I sent it to Bob. Because I\n\n23 knew that Craig Ott, the person who was referred to\n24 in this letter, in this e-mail, was a person that I\n\n25 had introduced to Fannie Mae through CAM Financial\n\nMarch 17, 2003 FM of MAW Page 88\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.001619\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-14 \u2014 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 6of12\n\n00091\n1 = Q.. Then why did she send it to you?\n\n2 A. Because she recognized that I had spent a\n\n3 great deal of time and effort at Fannie Mae.\n\n4 Including signing a confidentiality agreement with\n\n5 them, and had provided them with the great deal of\n\n6 information, had a consultant fly in from Canada to\n7 meet with them, had customers of Fannie Mae, DUS\n8 customers, you name them, they were my customers,\n9 wanting me to do business with Fannie Mae.\n\n10 Betty knew about the confidential\n\n11 relationship, I mean knew about the confidentiality\n12 agreements with all of the people that Bob Jones\n\n13 brought into Fannie Mae, and I'm certain she was as\n14 shocked as I was when I read it. And I, I doubt\n\n15. seriously that there is anybody in this room who\n\n16 wouldn't have done the same thing under the\n\n17 circumstances.\n\n18 QQ. Did she send you any other documents from\n19 Fannie Mae after you left Fannie Mae in July 1998?\n20 A. Betty has never sent me anything related\n\n21 to her work whatsoever. We share prayers. We share\n22 jokes. We do not share information about Fannie Mae\n23 because after this, it was clear that Fannie Mae was\n24 not going to do business with me and I had to find\n\n25 work. This was no reason for her to send anything\n\nMarch 17, 2003 FM of MAW Page 91\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.001622\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-14 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 7 of 12\n\n00094\n1 one and only e-mail I ever received from her that had\n\n2 anything to do with business and she sent me this one\n3 because it's pretty clear from this e-mail that I was\n\n4 not going to be given the same opportunity as\n\n5 everyone else was being given to do this.\n\n6 Q._ Did you talk to anyone about this e-mail\n\n7 after you got it?\n\n8 <A. Yes, I did. I talked to Bob Jones and\n\n9 said forget all the stuff I'm trying to do with\n\n10 Fannie Mae because it's obvious they are not going to\n11 give me any business so maybe you might want to try\n12 to get some from them.\n\n13 Q. When did you talk to Bob Jones?\n\n14 A. Idon'trecall. As soon as probably I got\n\n15 this e-mail. It's pretty shocking when you spent\n\n16 almost two hundred and some thousand dollars building\n17 a business to suddenly one day walk in the door and\n18 no you don't have ding, after lies and lies and lies\n\n19 and confidentiality and being asked if you wanted to\n20 do it, and then being crapped on in the midst of all\n\n21 of it.\n\n22  Q. And what did Mr. Jones say to you when you\n23 told him about this?\n\n24 <A. He said I'm not surprised.\n\n25  Q. Tell me everything he said to you about\n\nMarch 17, 2003 FM of MAW Page 94\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.001625\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-14 \u2014 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 8of12\n\n00102\n1 MS. WILLIAMS: Marialice, that's all\n\n2 right. Do you have a question outstanding?\n3 BY MR. WIMBERLY:\n4 Q. Let me check.\n\n3 (Witness laughing.)\n6 THE WITNESS: I can tell you you don't.\n7 MR. WIMBERLY: Well, then let me -- oh,\n\n8 no, Ido. There is no -- Ido have a question. No.\n9 No. I do have a question pending. And that is, is\n10 it not correct to say there is no, there is no\n\n11 absolute decision here to reject your proposal?\n\n12 MR. WISER: Object to the form of the\n\n13 question.\n\n14 THE WITNESS: That is incorrect. You are\n15 incorrect.\n\n16 BY MR. WIMBERLY:\n\n17. = Q._-\u00ab~And why am I incorrect?\n\n18 A. Because you cannot read.\n\n19 Q. Well, please help me read. Where is it\n20 categorically decided that Fannie Mae is rejecting\n21 your proposal?\n\n22 MR. WISER: Object to the form of the\n\n23 question.\n\n24 THE WITNESS: In the context of this\n\n25 e-mail. That is open to obviously a different\n\nMarch 17, 2003 FM of MAW Page 102\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.001633\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-14 \u2014 Filed 06/21/2007 Page9of12\n\n00104\n1 Q. Okay. Okay. And can -- did he call you?\n\n2 Or did you call him?\n\n3. A. For?\n\n4 Q. To tell him about this e-mail?\n\n5 <A. I forwarded it to Bob Jones much earlier.\n\n6 Q. Oh. You had already given it to him? You\n7 had forwarded it to him before February 2002?\n\n8 <A. Ibelieve so.\n\n9 Q. When?\n\n10 =A. Idon'trecall. It should say here\n\n11 somewhere, I guess. I don't remember when I told\n12 him, frankly.\n\n13. Q. You don't disagree there is nothing in\n\n14 this document that's Exhibit 5 that indicates that\n15 you forwarded it to Mr. Jones at this time, so your\n16 testimony is that you forwarded it to him at some\n17 other time?\n\n18 MR. WISER: Object to the form of the\n\n19 question.\n\n20 THE WITNESS: I thought -- I could be\n\n21 incorrect. J, I don't remember.\n\n22 BY MR. WIMBERLY:\n\n23 Q. Do you have a general recollection?\n\n24 MR. WISER: Object tothe form of the\n\n25 question.\n\nMarch 17, 2003 FM of MAW Page 104\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.001635\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-14 \u2014 Filed 06/21/2007\n\n00107\n1 said: \"Yes, we're trying to.\"\n\n2 QQ. When did that occur?\n\n3 A. That occurred, and Fannie Mae I'm sure\n\n4 will know in their records from when I had an\n\n5 appointment with them, when I went in to speak with\n6 Richard, about doing this business.\n\n7 ~~ Q. But in your own recollection, when did it\n\n8 occur?\n\n9 MR. WISER: J object to the form of the\n\n10 question.\n\n11 THE WITNESS: Sometime between 1998 and\n12 1994.\n\n13 MS. WILLIAMS: 1998 and -- .\n\n14 THE WITNESS: 1998 and -- 1998 and -- when\n\n15 did I leave there, I can't even remember now. Was it\n16 \u201898, and 2001.\n\n17 BY MR. WIMBERLY:\n\n18 Q. Was it before June 4, 2001?\n\n19 MR. WISER: Object to the form of the\n\n20 question.\n\n21 THE WITNESS: I believe it was.\n\n22 BY MR. WIMBERLY:\n\n23 Q. Was it shortly before?\n\n24 A. It was before this memo was written\n\n25 because if I had already have known this memo was\n\nMarch 17, 2003 FM of MAW\n\nPage 10 of 12\n\nPage 107\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.001638\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-UDB Document 33-14 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 11 of 12\n\n00108\n1 written I certainly would not have taken more trouble\n\n2 todo more work for free for Fannie Mae for nothing.\n3. Q. Why did you resend it then to Mr. Jones in\n\n4 February 2002?\n\n5 A. Idon't know, don't recall.\n\n6 MR. WISER: Object to the form of the\n7 question.\n3 BY MR. WIMBERLY:\n\n9 QQ. Did somebody ask you to do that?\n\n10. =A. I don't recall.\n\n11 Q. You are familiar with Mr. Nick Wiser?\n\n12 A. Yes,lam.\n\n13. Q. Who has been relatively vocal today?\n\n14. +A. AmI familiar with Mr. Wiser?\n\n15 Q. Yes, ma'am?\n\n16 =A. Yes, Iam.\n\n17. = Q._ And how are you familiar with Mr. Wiser?\n18 A. I'm familiar with Mr. Wiser because he\n\n19 represents Bob Jones.\n\n20 Q. How long have you known Mr. Wiser?\n2] A. Idon't recall exactly.\n\n22 Q. You have a general recollection?\n\n23. =A. After 1998 and before today.\n\n24 Q. Ms. Williams, I appreciate that it's\n\n25 difficult to be sitting here answering questions, but\n\nMarch 17, 2003 FM of MAW Page 108\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.001639\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-UDB Document 33-14 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 12 of 12\n\n00121\n1 no one more surreptitious than the people I worked\n\n2 with at Fannie Mae, who stole my concept \u2014-\n3 Q. Ms. Williams?\n\n4 A. - would never let me have an award to\n5 myself because --\n\n6 Q. Move to strike.\n\n7 A. -- Richard Lawch hated me.\n\n8 QQ. Move to strike the prior answer.\n\n9 <A. Andtold me he was going to get around CAM\n10 the minute J walked out the door. And he did.\n\n1 Q. Ms. Williams let's get --\n\n12 A. Now, that's surreptitious.\n\n13. Q. Let's get back to the questions about this\n\n14 e-mail. Again, I'm trying to explain what I'm\n\n15 reading in this e-mail.\n\n16 A. And I'm trying to explain to you that when\n\n17 I got this e-mail I did not know about the lawsuit\n\n18 and Fannie Mae was not a party. So stop referring to\n19 it as me and Fannie Mae. Fannie Mae was not involved\n20 in this lawsuit when I gave my statement. This, this\n21 was sent to me because I was being screwed.\n\n22 Q. Isn't it, but isn't it a fact,\n\n23 Ms. Williams, based on your understanding of Fannie\n\n24 Mae's policies on confidential information, that you\n\n25 thought Betty Dance was giving you confidential\n\nMarch 17, 2003 FM of MAW Page 121\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.001652\n","ocr_status":1,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:40:32-07:00","document_number":"33","attachment_number":13,"pacer_doc_id":"04501888514","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":2,"description":"Exhibit Exhibit L - 3-17-2003 Williams Deposition","acms_document_guid":""},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686754/","id":2686754,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/33/14/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.747354-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:10.125573-08:00","sha1":"fa51073fbbff3b6ceca74ea0c0b5265706f4ba76","page_count":2,"file_size":740414,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.14.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.14.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":"Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-15 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 1 of2\n\nEXHIBIT M\n\n\fLicensee List Repetty-01483-JDB Document 33-15 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 2 of age | of 1\n\nco] SOM) Rc Me OO Cle ae MM) LOR T Lk (ee MM) og 2 hoo 2 |)\n\nCunt a Ie |\n\nFirs Name=Marialice oe a _Last Name = Williams\nBusiness Entity Name = None Is Resident? = All\nLicense Num=None License Type = All\n\nLicense Status = All LOAs = All\nNational Producer Number = None DBA Name = None\nSort By = Last Name . Licensee Type: = All\n\n* Indicates those agents which have branch offices. Click the link to view\n\n5\n\n1) PROPERTY\n\n(0196973 6768561 Y Quotises 04/30/2003 DC,\ni '3)PERSONAL 20037\ni i -LINES(1 1/01/1998) | |\n\nhttps://sbs-dc-public naic.org/Lion-Web/jsp/sbsreports/LicenseeListExtExtract.jsp 5/4/2007\n","ocr_status":1,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:40:09-07:00","document_number":"33","attachment_number":14,"pacer_doc_id":"04501888845","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":2,"description":"Exhibit Exhibit M - DC License Document","acms_document_guid":""},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686755/","id":2686755,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/33/15/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.754041-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:10.139102-08:00","sha1":"7780d1b7bb1f9723c5ae85cd28766c1a55db3aef","page_count":13,"file_size":534390,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.15.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.15.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":"Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-16 Filed 06/21/2007 Page1 of 13\n\nEXHIBIT N\n\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-16 \u2014 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 2of13\n\nUNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\nFOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA\n\n)\nMARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS, )\nPlaintiff )\n)\nv. ) Civil Action No.\n) Judge\nANNIE MAE, )\n)\nand )\n)\nRICHARD LAWCH, ) S, Co\n) \u201cUBjecg Ni Cnty\nand ) ne fo Pro fa}\n) Cong, a, ect,\nGRACE HUEBSCHER ) entig. Ore,\nDefendants ) waa :\n\nVERIFIED COMPLAINT FOR DAMAGES AND\nFOR INJUNCTIVE RELIEF\n\n\u2018JURISDICTION\n\nThe jurisdiction of this Court is founded on Title 28, Section 1331 of the\nUnited States Code (question arising under Federal law). Defendant Fannie Mae is\n\u201can instrumentality of the Federal Government\u201d; and on Sec. 42 U.S.C. 1981(a) denial\nof right to contract based on race.\n\nPARTIES\n\nPlaintiff, Williams, Marialice Bathrus Williams (hereafter \u201cMs. Williams\u201d), an\nAfrican-American woman, is a resident of the District of Columbia and was\nemployed as an attorney from 1989 to 1990, Assistant Director from 1990 to 1993 and\nthen Director of Capital Markets from 1993 to 1998 in the Multifamily Division of\nDefendant Fannie Mae.\n\nDefendant Fannie Mae is an insttumentality of the Federal Government and\nits main place of operations is Washington, D.C.\n\nDefendant Richard Lawch (hereafter \u201cMr. Lawch\u201d), a white male, was Vice-\n\nPresident for Multifamily and her direct supervisor at Fannie Mae. Mr. Lawch is\nnow a Senior Vice-President at Fannie Mae in the Multifamily Division.\n\nFM42680\n\nFNMA.MBW.008176\n\f\u2018Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-16 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 3of 13\n\nDefendant Grace Huebscher, a white female, is a Vice-President in the\nMultifamily Division at Fannie Mae.\n\nCOUNT I DENIAL OF RIGHT TO CONTRACT BASED ON RACE\n- 42 USC 1981(a) \u201cAll persons... shall have the same nght ... to make and enforce\ncontracts... as enjoyed by white citizens....\u201d; (b) \u201cmake and enforce\u201d defined\n\n\u201cincludes the making, performance, modification, and termination of contracts, and\n\nthe enjoyment of all benefits, privileges, terms, and conditions of the contractual\nrelationship.\u201d\n\ni. Ms. Williams worked in the Multifamily Division at Fannie Mae from January\nof 1990 to June 1998. In June 1998, she left Fannie Mae with the written and oral\nytomise of doing business with Fannie Mae on transactions for which she had\ndeveloped the tools that permitted Fannie Mae to carty out those transactions.\n\nz. Ms. Williams was responsible for the development of products for Defendant\nannie Mae\u2019s customers that could provide cheaper and more cost-effective\nsicuctuces for selling or securitizing pools of mortgage loans. She established a high\nievel of expertise in these products, a detailed knowledge of the financial institutions\nwiuck did business in the secondary mortgape market, and preat capacity to work\nwithin Fannie Mae and without with its clients in successful product development.\n\n+. Ms. Williams, while at Fannie Mac, developed and put into place products that\n\nopened up the secondary market for Fannie Mae\u2019s multifamily mortgage-backed\n\nsecurities at a moment when change in lending rules would have cost Fannie Mae\n\nay; MIBHUIPYUO) pus\n{eHUSpYUO)\n\n4pacy 9A1999}01g 0} Joa[qns\n\nthat market, or a substantial portion thereof That product line was named ACES\u2122\nand is now the benchmark on Wall Street for similar asset-backed securities.\n\n4. In 1997, Ms. Williams closed the first mortgage-backed securities transaction in\nthe country whereby Fannie Mae was able, for the first time, to transfer all of the risk\n\nof loss (as opposed to insuring the loss) to a third party insurer, AIG, and thus to\n\n, FM42681\n\nENMA.MBW.008177\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-16 Filed 06/21/2007 Page4of13\n\nConfidential\nSubject to Protective Order\nand Confidentialit. O~2-~\n\nmove that risk from the portfolio and financials of Fannie Mae and to stay in\n\ncompliance with the new lending rules.\n\n5. Fannie Mae, Richard Lawch, (her immediate supervisor), and Grace\nHuebscher all participated with Ms. Williams in the development of the cisk transfer\nmechanism and intimately knew of her talent, her skills, her experience and\neffectiveness in developing the tools and in closing mortgage backed securities for\nFannie Mae, which effectively transferred risk off its portfolio and facilitated, in\nparticular, its remaining in the small multifamily market, a market of the order of $10\nbillion a year.\n\n6. On June 30 of 1998, Ms. Williams ended her employment with Fannie Mae.\nDefendants Fannie Mae, Richard Lawch, and Grace Huebscher all were aware of\nsignificant Prospective opportunities available to Ms. Williams, by reason of her\nexpertise and experience, and in fact led Ms. Williams to believe that she would be\npermitted to participate in these business opportunities, as such opportunities were\nnormally and customarily afforded by Fannie Mae to former officials who are white\ncitizens.\n\n7. Ms. Williams, after leaving Fannie Mae, established her own firm to broker and\nptovide services for a portion of that mottgage backed securities market of Fannie\nMae that she had developed. She entered into a joint venture with CAM Financial to\nfacilitate her business plan.\n\n8. Lou Hoyes, Senior Vice President of Defendant Fannie Mae\u2019s Multifamily\nDivision where Ms. Williams was employed, prior to her leaving Fannie Mae, gave\nhis word orally and in writing that Fannie Mae would do business with Ms. Williams.\n\nIn fact, Mr. Hoyes assured in writing that Fannie Mae would do at least $1 billion of\n\nFM42682\n\nENMA.MBW.008178\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-16 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 5of13\n\nContidential\n\nSubject to Protective Order\nand Confidentiality Ordo~\n\ninsurance-based business in the next year through her, as a broker, and the years\nfollowing of an approximately $10 billion yearly market. Standard brokerage rates\nwould yield commissions to Ms. Williams on that business of the order of $7 million\nannually, totaling $35 million over the five years of injury to date.\n9. On May 26, 1998, Louis W. Hoyes, Fannie Mae\u2019s Senior Vice-President for Multi-\nFamily Lending and Investment, explained the business opportunities opened by the\nprograms developed by Ms. Williams in association with CAM Financial:\n\nFannie Mae currently has several pending transactions\n\ntotaling nearly $1 billion where multifamily credit risk\n\ntransfer insurance is the keystone to closing these\n\ntransactions.\n10. Ms. Williams\u2019 business plan was to use the risk transfer products that she had\ndeveloped during her tenure with Fannie Mae. Richard Lawch and Grace\nHuebscher knew and approved of that business plan. Such atrangements are normal\nand customary for white citizens who are former high-level officers of Fannie Mae\nand who depart from Fannie Mae and continue to conduct business in the area of\ntheir employment but on a private sector basis with customaty payments, fees and\ncommissions. There was no reason to expect any different conteactual and business\nopportunity for Ms. Williams, an African-American citizen, especially given her\ntalent, experience and demonstrated track record of success at Fannie Mae in\nptoduct development.\n11 On July 1, 1998, Ms. Williams opened an office at 2600 Virginia Avenue, NW;\nWashington, DC 20037, Suite 402. On October 19, 1998, Ms. Williams organized a\nDistrict of Columbia limited liability company named, Risk Mitigation Strategists,\n\nLLC (RMS), wholly owned by Ms. Williams.\n\nFM42683\n\n>\u00bb\n\nFNMA.MBW.008179\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB \u00a9 Document 33-16 Filed 06/21/2007 Page6of13\n\nConfidential\nSubject to Protective Order\nand Confidentiality Order\n\n12. On November 1, 1998, Ms. Williams obtained an insurance broker's license\nfrom the District of Columbia Department of Insurance and Securities Regulation in\norder that Ms. Williams, individually, as well as through RMS, could provide\nbrokerage services and teceive brokers\u2019 fees generated by her efforts with Fannic\nMae in producing insurance products bought by, on behalf of or for the benefit of\nDefendant Fannie Mae and its multifamily leaders, including its DUS and\nAgegtegation Progtam lenders.\n13. Following her departure from Fannie Mae, with the sanction of Fannie Mae,\nRichard Lawch and Grace Huebscher, Ms Williams proceeded to develop the\nbusiness \u2014 arranging meetings, attending conferences, and making proposals. She\nworked diligently and in good faith to consummate business with Defendants. Ms.\nWilliams marketed to Fannie Mae and its lendet customers a variety of insurance\nproducts.\n14. Ms. Williams attended conferences such as those sponsored by the Mortgage\nBankers Association where Ms. Williams made presentations to Fannie Mae\ncustomers regarding pertincat insurance strategies concerning Fannie Mae and its\nbusiness.\n15. The strategies were designed to facilitate and to address the following:\na.) make it easier and less costly for lenders using the then existing\nFannie Mae executions to swap mortgages for mortgage-backed\n\nsecurities or sell various loans and mortgages to Defendant Fannie\n\nMae;\n\nFM42684\n\nFENMA.MBW.008180\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-16 . Filed 06/21/2007 Page7 of 13\n\nConfidential\nSubject to Protective Order\nand Confidentialit: ~*~\n\nb.) .) minimize Defendant Fannie Mae's exposure to real estate, credit,\nand market risks associated with its portfolios of mortgages, financial\ninstruments, detivatives and hedging activities; and\nc.) .) shorten transaction time through eliminating a number of\ndocuments and substituting an insurance policy and making follow up\ntransactions vittually a snap.\n16. Defendant Fannie Mae had representatives at meetings in Chicago, San\nFrancisco, and Orlando, Florida where Ms. Williams made presentations to Fannie\nMae customers, attended parties with Fannie Mae customers, and attended Fannie\nMae parties to discuss marketing results of the conference.\n17. In May 2001, another specific proposal was discussed, reflecting the exhaustive\nwork in cefining the product. Ms. Williams, in association with CAM Financial,\nhaving secured the interest of several A+ rated insurance companies, brought the\nproposal to Fannie Mae for doing business, relying again on the written and oral\nassurances, by Fannie Mae, its officers and agents. 18. While Fannie Mae\u2019s public\ndiscussion continued as stated, privately and secretly, Fannie Mae, was proceeding\nto blackball, to deny Ms. Williams business opportunities, and to refuse to do\nbusiness with Ms. Williams, an African-American, in favor of a white male, Mr. Craig\nOtt.\n19. Please note that in response to an email dated May 30, 2001 from Ms. Williams,\nDefendant Grace Huebscher and Defendant Richard Lawch on May 31, 2001 had the\nfollowing private, written discussion by e-mail:\n\nRichard, Marialice wants to pursue the credit risk\n\ninsurance for DUS risk. Do you want to pursue with her?\n\n\u2018 MY GUT IS NO but if you think it is worth continuing\ndiscussions, I will focus on her questions?\n\n\u2014 FM42685\n\nFNMA.MBW.008181\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-16 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 8of 13\n\nRichard S. Lawch wrote back by e-mail:\nIf Ofheo [OFFICE OF FEDERAL HOUSING\nENTERPRISE OVERSIGHT] comes back with bad\nRBC [Risk Based Capital] rules we may be interested.\nAre these different players than Craig [Ott] is showing\nus?\n\nGrace Huebscher replied:\n\nProbably not so if we want to engage Craig [Ott] on this\n\nproject, that might be a better choice. If you like that\n\nplan then let's discuss what we want to ask Craig to find\n\nfor us...\nFannie Mac, Richard Lawch and Grace Huebscher never presented Ms. Williams\nwith theic true decision, motive and intention, giving one face in public and another\nwa secret, in private. Ms. Williams did not discover the existence of Exhibit A untl\nthe spring of 2002, which then made the blackball clear.\n26. Atall times, from 1998 to the present, Fannie Mac has intentionally, improperly,\naad willfully refused to do business with Ms. Williams, and bad no intention of ever\ndoing any business with Ms. Williams. Fannie Mae through its Vice-President\nRichard Lawch (now Senior Vice-President) and Vice-President Grace Huebscher of\nthe Multifamily Division engaged in an intentional and malicious plan to deprive Ms.\nWilliams of her right to contract based on her Afro-American identity, on the same\nterms as ate afforded \u201cwhite citizens.\u201d As officers and directors of Fannie Mac, they\nfurther engaged in a persistent course of conduct designed to interfere with her\nprospective economic opportunities. Ms. Williams was blackballed and locked out\n\nby Fannie Mae.\n\nFM42686\n\nENMA.MBW.008182\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB . Document 33-16 Filed 06/21/2007 PageQof13\n\nConfidential\nSubject to Protective Order\nand Confidentiality -4--\n21.\u2018 This plan and scheme was made manifest by the May 31, 2001 e-mail from\n\nHuebscher to Lawch, which summarily and explicitly denied Ms. Williams an\nopportunity to participate in a pending business opportunity.\n\n22. Further, the line of business for which Ms. Williams was uniquely qualified\nwas given to a white male citizen \u2014 one Craig Ott, with credentials and experience\ninferior to that of Ms. Williams. In fact, he was structuring and closing transactions\nbased upon the business concepts that Ms. Williams had developed at Fannie Mae\nand that he had leamed under the tutelage of Ms. Williams.\n\n23. During the above mentioned period, Ms. Williams engaged in such marketing\nefforts and made presentations to Defendant Fannie Mae through many of its\nemployees, officers and agents in such a manner that Defendant, by and through\nthese employees, officers and agents, had actual knowledge of Ms. Williams's\nexpectancy of business opportunities.\n\n\u201cA, Defendant Fannie Mae, through its agents and officers Defendants Richard\nLawch and Grace Huebscher, discouraged others and its lenders and customers\nfrom doing business with Ms. Williams.\n\n25. Defendants and other agents, employees and officers of Fannie Mae discouraged\nconsultants, brokers, lenders and customers and their representatives from dealing\nwith Ms. Williams\u2014and companies associated with her, such as CAM Financial-- in\nsecuring insurance products. They knew, for example, that Ms. Williams, as part of\nher business plan, intended to work with CAM Financial, the insurance brokerage\nfirm that provided insurance coverage for these transactions under an exclusive\n\nagreement with Fannie Mae.\n\nFM42687\n\nFNMA.MBW.008183\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-16 \u2014 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 10 of 13\n\nConfidential\nSubject to Protective Order\nand Confidentiality Order\n26. Fannie Mac thereby deprived Ms. Williams from earning commissions through\nits co-brokerage agreement with CAM Financial. Their actions are continuing and\nongoing to the present while Fannie Mae is continuing to do business in the small\nmultifamily housing market using mortgage backed secutities\u2019 products developed\nby Ms. Williams, as stated previously above.\n27. Defendants blacklisted and blackballed Ms. Williams. These actions drove Ms.\nWilliams into bankruptcy.\n28. Ms. Williams has been damaged as approximate cause of Fannie Mae\u2019s illegal\nand tortious actions in an amount in excess of $35,000,000 as a result of lost co-\nbrokerage commissions with CAM financial commissions attributable to placing\niasurance for her own insurance commission account and insurance consulting fees\nwith the above referenced customers and prospective customers.\n29. This damage is continuing and growing.\n30. Defendants\u2019 conduct and actions as set forth induced the breach of prospective\nbusiness relationships, contracts and economic expectancies between Ms. Williams,\nan African American, and its customers and prospective customers, and encouraged\nand promoted the establishment of business relationships, contracts and economic\n\nexpectancies with white persons, contrary to the protection offered by 42 USC 1981.\n\nCOUNT II TORTIOUS INTERFERENCE WITH PROSPECTIVE ECONOMIC\nADVANTAGE\n\n31. The allegations set forth in Paragraphs 1-30 are repeated and expressly\n\nincorporated here.\n32. Defendants' conduct and actions as set forth constitute a tortious\n\ninterference with a business or prospective business relationship or economic\n\nFM42688\n\nFNMA.MBW.008184\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-16 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 11 of 13\n\nConfidential\nSubject to Protective Order\nand Confidentiality Order\n\nadvantage with Ms. Williams's customers and potential customers, CAM Financial,\nand its co-brokerage, commission-shating relationship with CAM Financial.\nDefendants, with knowledge of Ms. Williams's co-brokerage and joint marketing and\nsales atrangement with CAM Financial and its efforts to market and sell its insurance\nproducts, insurance consulting and general consulting services to Defendant Fannie\nMae's lenders and customers, has intentionally and without justification or privilege\ninterfered with such relationships with CAM Financial and Ms. Williams's customers\nand potential customers by inducing or causing a breach or termination of such\nrelationships and expectancy and resultant damage.\n\nCOUNT HL INTENTIONAL INFLICTION OF EMOTIONAL\nHARM/OUTRAGEOUS CONDUCT\n\n33. The allegations set forth in Paragraphs 1-30 are repeated and expressly\n\nincorporated here.\n\n34. Defendants blacklisted and blackballed Ms. Williams. Those actions caused her\nto file bankruptcy, to leave her office at the Watergate in disgrace and to leave her\nhome at the Watergate despondent and nearly unable to function. Ms. Williams was\ndevastated by the shabby and disingenuous way she was treated. All these years Ms.\nWilliams worked in good faith to attempt to fashion a business relationship with\nFannie Mae based on what she brought to the table. These actions caused her\nshock and humiliation when they revealed all her work to have been in vain.\nDefendants crushed her in a way that has cost her untold millions in lost business.\nThose actions caused her worst nightmare to come true.\n\n35. Those actions were intentional/and ot were carried out with reckless disregard\n\nfor her as a person and as an African-American. Those actions are outrageous, and\n\nFM42689\n\n10\n\nENMA.MBW.008185\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-16. Filed 06/21/2007- Page 12 of 13\n\nConfidential\nSubject to Protective Order\nand Confidentialits Ardo~\n\ninflicted on her great emotional distress, namely, fright, horror, grief, shame,\nhumiliation, embarrassment, anger, disappointment and nausea.\n\nCOUNT IV - REQUEST FOR INJUCTIVE RELIEF TO ORDER DEFENDANTS\nTO CONTRACT WITH MS. WILLIAMS ON THE SAME GROUNDS AS WHITE\nCITIZENS, AND TO AFFORD HER THE ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITIES\nPREVIOUSLY DENIED.\n\n36. The allegations set forth in Paragraphs 1-30 are repeated and expressly\nteicarporated here.\n\nJURY DEMAND\n\nMs. Williams requests a trial by jury on all issues allowable by law.\n\nREQUEST FOR RELIEF\niL DAMAGES: Based on Counts Onc, Two, and Three, Ms. Williams demands actual\ntlamages in the amount of $50,000,000, which includes compensatory damages, lost\nvammissions, damage to credit due to bankruptcy, emotional distress and suffering.\nMs. Williams also demands punitive damages in the amount of $100,000,000 for the\nmalicious, wanton, outrageous conduct of Fannie Mac and its employees.\n2, INJUNCTIVE RELIEF: Plaintiff requests this Court to enter injunctive relief\nenjoining Fannie Mae and its officers from further interfering with Ms. Williams\n\nbusiness opportunities.\n\nRespectfully submitted,\n\nHarley J. Daniels, Esq.\nBrian Lederer, Esq.\nMichael W. Beasley, Esq.\nLaw Offices\n3003 Van Ness St, NW, Suite #W228\nWashington, D. C. 20008\n690 (202) 244-1715\nFM42\n\n41\n\nENMA.MBW.0081 86\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document-33-16 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 13 of 13.\n\nVerification\n\nSubsctibed and sworn before a Notary Public in Washington, District of Columbia, |,\nMarialice Bathrus Williams, Plaintiff, state that I believe that the facts stated in the\nComplaint for Damages and for Injunctive Relief are true, to the best of my\nknowledge and information.\n\nMarialice Bathrus Williams\n\nNotary Public\n\nMy Commission expires:\n\nConfidential\nSubject to Protective Order\nond Confidentiality Orde-\n\nFM42691\n\n412\n\nFNMA.MBW.008187\n","ocr_status":1,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:46:02-07:00","document_number":"33","attachment_number":15,"pacer_doc_id":"04501888656","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":2,"description":"Exhibit Exhibit N - Draft Complaint","acms_document_guid":""},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686756/","id":2686756,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/33/16/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.760756-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:10.151679-08:00","sha1":"e38914ea7f7b667451037ea791c8ecf83cbaada2","page_count":5,"file_size":121848,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.16.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.16.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":"Case 1:05-cv-01483-UDB Document 33-17 Filed 06/21/2007 Page of5\n\nEXHIBIT O\n\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-UDB Document 33-17 Filed 06/21/2007 Page2of5\n\n00001\n1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\n\n2 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF MISSISSIPPI\n3 SOUTHERN DIVISION\n\n5 CAM FINANCIAL SERVICES, INC.,\n\n6 Plaintiff, : Case No.1:0icv314BrR\n7.\n\n8 GENERAL STAR NATIONAL INSURANCE :\n9 COMPANY; GENERAL STAR INDEMNITY :\n10 COMPANY; GENERAL STAR MANAGEMENT :\n11 COMPANY, GENERAL RE CORPORATION; :\n12 GENERAL REINSURANCE CORPORATION: :\n13 CRUMP INSURANCE SERVICES OF\n\n14 MEMPHIS, INC.; CRAIG OTT,\n\n15 INDIVIDUALLY AND IN HIS\n\n16 REPRESENTATIVE CAPACITY AS VICE :\n17 PRESIDENT OF GENERAL STAR\n\n18 MANAGEMENT COMPANY\n\n19 FEDERAL NATIONAL MORTGAGE\n\n20 ASSOCIATION\n\n21 (FANNIE MAB),\n\n22 Defendants.\n\n23 ----------------- X\n\n24\n\n25\n\nMay 5, 2003, FM of MAW Page 1\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.002921\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-UDB Document 33-17 Filed 06/21/2007 Page3of5\n\n00002\n1 Washington, D.C.\n2 Monday, May 5, 2003\n3 Videotaped Deposition of MARIALICE\n\n4 WILLIAMS, a witness herein, called for examination by\n5 counsel for Defendant, Fannie Mae, in the\n\n6 above-entitled matter, pursuant to subpoena and\n\n7 agreement, the witness being duly sworn by PENNY M.\n8 DEAN, a Notary Public in and for the District of\n\n9 Columbia, taken at the offices of Steptoe & Johnson,\n\n10 1330 Connecticut Avenue, N.W., Washington, D.C., at\n11 9:55 a.m., Monday, May 5, 2003, and the proceedings\n12 being taken down by Stenotype by PENNY M. DEAN, RPR,\n13 and transcribed under her direction.\n\n14\n\n15\n\n16\n\n17\n\n18\n\n19\n\n20\n\n2]\n\n22\n\n23\n\n24\n\n25\n\nMay 5, 2003, FM of MAW Page 2\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.002922\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-UDB Document 33-17 Filed 06/21/2007 Page4of5\n\n00032\n1 was also giving Grace Huebscher the decision-making\n\n2 power and she clearly indicated that she did not want\n3 to do any further business with me.\n\n4 BY MR. WIMBERLY:\n\n5 Q. And how was he giving Ms. Huebscher the\n\n6 decision-making power?\n\n7 ~~ A. Imet with Ms. Huebscher at a restaurant\n\n8 along with Rhoda Newman who used to work for me when\n9 I was at Fannie Mae. And Ms. Huebscher indicated\n10 that she was looking for new and innovative ways to\n11 lay off risk and I] told her that ] had several brand\n\n12 new concepts that I had developed and she indicated\n13 that she would like to sign a confidentiality\n\n14 agreement with me at that time and after doing so --\n15 and it was a five-page confidentiality agreement\n\n16 which covered all the ideas which I would disclose to\n17 Ms. Huebscher. After that, and I brought in at great\n18 expense and difficulty the internationally renowned\n19 expert on captive insurance companies who had just\n20 completed writing the regulations for the District of\n21 Columbia and the application for the District of\n\n22 Columbia's new captive program, she listened to all\n23 of my ideas, I then began to corresponded with her by\n24 e-mail and she would not respond to me at all, she\n\n25 would not respond, I would cc Mr. Lawch, she would\n\nMay 5, 2003, FM of MAW Page 32\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.002952\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-UDB Document 33-17 Filed 06/21/2007 Page5of5\n\n00033\n1 notrespond. So I received no response to any of my\n\n2 efforts and therefore could not press any further\n\n3 with Fannie Mae.\n\n4  Q. When was that?\n\n5 <A. Some time -- it was over a very long\n\n6 period of time, I spent a great deal of effort trying\n\n7 todo business with Fannie Mae. It was over the\n\n8 years between 1998 -- well, not really, probably\n\n9 around 1999 after the -- the 12-month period had\n\n10 elapsed in which I could not be considered for\n\n11 employment and felt they probably wouldn't utilize me\n12 asa consultant either. In fact, I did get\n\n13 rejections of my efforts to get hired as a consultant\n\n14 from Mr. Lawch so that was when I was working with\n15 the former owner of the Denver Bullets, Denver, is it\n16 Denver, whatever the Denver basketball team is --\n\n17. Q.)Ss Nuggets.\n\n18 A. Nuggets, right. And he approached\n\n19 directly -- yes, ] know that Washington was the\n\n20 Bullets and now they are the Wizards and I think they\n21 are both horrible names, buy anyway when I was\n\n22 working -- I attempted to work with everybody, let me\n23 just put it that way. I tried to go through Frank\n\n24 Rains, I tried to go through Richard Lawch, I tried\n\n25 to go through Rob Levin. I tried -- and these were\n\nMay 5, 2003, FM of MAW Page 33\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.002953\n","ocr_status":1,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:42:47-07:00","document_number":"33","attachment_number":16,"pacer_doc_id":"04501889065","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":2,"description":"Exhibit Exhibit O - 5-5-2003 Williams Deposition Excerpts","acms_document_guid":""},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686757/","id":2686757,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/33/17/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.767263-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:10.166910-08:00","sha1":"0935425e0c59ebeaf5a7afad56c9bf0476fd2deb","page_count":5,"file_size":107203,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.17.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.17.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":"Case 1:05-cv-01483-UDB Document 33-18 Filed 06/21/2007 Page1of5\n\nEXHIBIT P\n\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-UDB Document 33-18 Filed 06/21/2007 Page2of5\n\n00001\n1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\n\n2 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF MISSISSIPPI\n3 SOUTHERN DIVISION\n\n5 CAM FINANCIAL SERVICES, INC., :\n\n6 Plaintiff, : Case No.1:01cv314BrR\n7 ov.\n\n8 GENERAL STAR NATIONAL INSURANCE :\n9 COMPANY; GENERAL STAR INDEMNITY :\n10 COMPANY; GENERAL STAR MANAGEMENT:\n11 COMPANY, GENERAL RE CORPORATION;:\n12 GENERAL REINSURANCE CORPORATION;:\n13 CRUMP INSURANCE SERVICES OF\n\n14 MEMPHIS, INC.; CRAIG OTT,\n\n15 INDIVIDUALLY AND IN HIS\n\n16 REPRESENTATIVE CAPACITY AS VICE :\n\n17 PRESIDENT OF GENERAL STAR\n\n18 MANAGEMENT COMPANY\n\n19 FEDERAL NATIONAL MORTGAGE\n\n20 ASSOCIATION\n\n21 (FANNIE MAE),\n\n22 Defendants. : VOL.IV\n23 --- 2 eee eee ee eee XK CONFIDENTIAL\n24 Washington, D.C.\n25 Tuesday, May 6, 2003\nMay 6, 2003 FM of MAW Page 1\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.003184\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-UDB Document 33-18 Filed 06/21/2007 Page3of5\n\n90002\n1 Videotaped Deposition of MARIALICE\n\n2 WILLIAMS, a witness herein, called for examination by\n3 counsel for Defendant, Fannie Mae, in the\n\n4 above-entitled matter, the witness being previously\n\n5 duly sworn, taken at the offices of Steptoe &\n\n6 Johnson, 1330 Connecticut Avenue, N.W., Washington,\n7 D.C., at 9:37 a.m., Tuesday, May 6, 2003, and the\n\n8 proceedings being taken down by Stenotype by PENNY M.\n9 DEAN, RPR, and transcribed under her direction.\n\n10\n\n11\n\n12\n\n13\n\n14\n\n15\n\n16\n\n17\n\n18\n\n19\n\n20\n\n21\n\n22\n\n23\n\n24\n\n25\n\nMay 6, 2003 FM of MAW Page 2\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.003185\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-18 Filed 06/21/2007 Page4of5\n\n00128\n1 A. Yes, it does.\n\n2 Q. Was this E-mail send on or about August\n\n3 6th, 2001?\n\n4 <A. It appears that way.\n\n5 Q. Would you read the first paragraph,\n\n6 please?\n\n7 A. \u201cWeare looking forward to meeting with\n\n8 you on the 21st of August. However, we want to make\n9 certain that Kate is on target with her presentation.\n10 Could you please let us know if you are looking at\n11 the captive as a potential credit enhancement tool\n12 for Fannie Mae or as a tool that the DUS lenders\n\n13 could use.\u201d\n\n14 Q. And then the third paragraph beginning\n\n15 finally, there is just one sentence, can you read\n\n16 that for the record?\n\n17. \u2014sA.._-s \"Finally, could we spend a little time\n\n18 discussing the other two questions from the insurance\n19 companies that we posed to you at the end of May.\"\n20. Q. And then lastly, just read the next\n\n21 sentence, please?\n\n22. A. \"My partner, Harvey Hartsfield, will be\n\n23 working with Kate on her presentation, so please cc\n24 him on your response.\"\n\n25 Q. Did you in fact have that meeting on the\n\nMay 6, 2003 FM of MAW Page 128\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.003311\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-18 Filed 06/21/2007 Page5of5\n\n00129\n1 21st of August?\n\n2 A. Yes, we did.\nQ. And who was there?\nA. Kate Westover.\n\nQ. And what was her position?\n\n3\n4\n5\n6 <A. Kate Westover is an international\n7 authority on captive insurance.\n\n8  Q. Where did the meeting occur?\n\n9 A. At Fannie Mae.\n\n10 Q. Who was there for Fannie Mae?\n\n11 A. Grace Huebscher, an attorney whom I did\n\n12 not know and I believe Rhoda Newman, but I'm not\n\n13 certain, and Harvey Hartsfield.\n\n14 (Williams Exhibit No. 42 was\n15 marked for identification.)\n16 BY MR. WIMBERLY:\n\n17. Q._\u2018_I'm going to hand your counsel a document\n18 marked Exhibit 42. And when youre satisfied it is\n\n19 not objectionable, Ms. Williams, if you would hand it\n20 to your client, I would appreciate it.\n\n2] MS. WILLIAMS: It starts -- the document\n\n22 starts with page 2, 3, 4.\n\n23 MR. WIMBERLY: The document bears Bates\n24 numbers 10524, 525, 526, 527, and it's from CAM's\n\n25 business records. And this is the way it was\n\nMay 6, 2003 FM of MAW Page 129\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.003312\n","ocr_status":1,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:39:58-07:00","document_number":"33","attachment_number":17,"pacer_doc_id":"04501889068","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":2,"description":"Exhibit Exhibit P - 5-6-2003 Williams Deposition Excerpts","acms_document_guid":""},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686758/","id":2686758,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/33/18/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.774807-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:10.181954-08:00","sha1":"c975fde0cddf2816aa69d2953e10b162a9b56ff1","page_count":17,"file_size":561368,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.18.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.18.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":"Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-19 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 1 of 17\n\nEXHIBIT Q\n\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-19 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 2of17\n\nIN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\nFOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA\n\nMARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS,\n\nPlaintiff,\nCivil Action No. 1:05CV01483\n\nvs.\nJudge John D. Bates\n\nFEDERAL NATIONAL MORTGAGE\n\nASSOCIATION, ef al.\nDECLARATION OF KATHRYN\n\nDefendants. WESTOVER\n\nI, Kathryn \u201cKate\u201d Westover, hereby declare as follows:\n\n1. I am not a party to the above-captioned action. I am over eighteen years of age,\nand the statements made herein are based on my personal knowledge. I refreshed my\nrecollection through the review of the documents attached hereto at Tab A.\n\n2. In or about August 2001, plaintiff Marialice Williams and I had a meeting with\nrepresentatives from Fannie Mae\u2019s Multifamily Division to discuss the possible use of captive\ninsurance companies by Fannie Mae. I do not remember any additional meetings with\nrepresentatives from Fannie Mae on this or any other subject, although there may have been a\n\ntelephone phone conference call before or after the meeting on this subject.\n\nI declare under penalty of perjury that the foregoing is true and correct. Executed on\n\n] at Colchester, Vermont.\n\n[D\nfey A C482.\n\nKathryn Westover\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-19 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 3of17\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-19 Filed 06/21/2007 += Page 4 of 17\n\nJ Atew queshons and an updatetrom KMD Oe .. me\n\n\u201cDate: Wed, 23 May 2001 10:16:10-0400\n\n\u201cFrom: \"Marialice Williams\" <marlalice@worldnet. att:net> - neh .\n\nvo - To: <thoda_s _newman@fanniemae.com>, <grace._| huebsehe@nnenae cise Get apt a mo\nof (CG: <bhartsfield@risk: tnitigation.\u00a2 com> . Q\n\n\" \u201cgubj\u00e9et\u00e9 A few questions 2 and: an apdate from RMS. - oa et : oak tp je oo\n1 . i\u00a5 ioe : ho .\n\nve Update fom RMS -\n\n\u201d _ First the good news--we rehave the interest af three insurance companies, two of \u2018whom are domestic. All are erated At and above,\u201d\nHowever, we need | to \u2018know a couple of things to facilitate our discussions with them:\n\n: 4. is there any. interest on Fannie\u2019 Mae's partin insuring her portion of the 5-20% mezzanine level of risk oa the DUS S ponte?\n(This \u00a9 could toad toa lower prerhium for the lenders). :\n\nme 2 Does Farini\u00e9 Mae have any objection to the DUS lenders slaying off all or Part of thelr first loss ss obligation on the DUS ioane to a -\not. \"AA\" or better rated credit enhancer? *\n\u201c3, Is Is there any / possiblity of obtaining data from Fannie Mae regarding the undervring and performance of the DUS portfolio?\n- The keen interest is in what percentage of the mortgage loans originated meet the various tiers of the DUS program and has there\n. been a distinction in the\u2019 performance based upon those tiers of Hoans? .\n\n' Sorry that we were unable to get Kate Westover i in to see you in June, We only need about. and hour: and a half Isthereatimein\naly th that will work? Also. if you find that there is room because ofa cancellation i i June we would be happy to fin\n\n- We. don't need all of \u2018the answers toe our questions: atone time. As soon as you have some idea about each question, tet us know.\n, Thanks, Marialice .\n\nwrod av: af above\n\nsike UUS patting?\n\nusb agar ant Kyi\n\n\u2018bot J oe . - SO . \u2014 40496 \"5923/01 9:53 AW.\n\nENMA.MBW.008031\nCONFIDENTIAL\n\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-19 Filed 06/21 [2007 Page 5 of 17\n\nSB ivd: Captive Insurance, Company Update} :\n\n\u00bb Sibjects [Fwe: Captive Insurance \u2018Compinty Update].\n-Dat\u00e9: Wed,06 Jun 2004 12:21:05.-0500 |\niF rom: Bob Jones <bobjones@cam-fi nancial.com> -\nTo: dvgroves@bellsouth, net, chockrunsey@eam-financil com\n\n: Bob. Jones wrote:\n\ni \u2018advised\u2019 \u2018Marialice to copy both. Red capital \u2018and Lend Lease on \u2018this. . .\nmessage to Richard and Grace, . just as. if she never saw the Fannie. Mae.\nemail _t\u00e9garding Graig. ott. - %\n\n. this reversal by IRS now offers Fannie Mae and/or each pus Lendet. to :\n-: > foxm their\u2019 own captive under the same \"economic family\u201d for balance\u2018 -\u00b0 ~ /\nsheet \u2018treatment: with the captive first loss premium now\u2019 tax deductible, . .\n\u2018The: IRS raling also. acknowledges. the shift of captive first loss from :\n.-* the the policy Holder to the.insurer for risk transfer. Our copyrighted\n' MCRI policy is acceptable\u2019 for risk transfer and could be used by AIG, | :\n\u201c Gen Star. or Surich to front the. captive. coverage. , .\n\ntc\n\n\u201cSubjects Captive li Tnstiraace Conipainy Update\n' Dates Wed, 6 Jun 2001 12:13:44 -0400-.\nFrom: \"Marialice Williams\u201d <matiatice@worldnetatt. net>\nTo: <grace_| huebscher@fanniemae.com>, <nichard_s. _laweh@fanniemae.c com>\u2019\n\u201d- CC: <mebeisler@redcapitalgroup.com>, <jklarson@lendleaserei. con, .)\n<rhoda_ e ~pewman@fanniemae. com>, > <thartsfield@risk-mitigation. com>\n\nOn June 4; 2001, the IRS issued a \u2018ming that fins the i insurance world reeling. The long standing pe position that premiuins 2s paid to\ncaptives are e not deductible under a the so-called\u201d economic family\u201d theory has been reversed.\n\nThe IRS, iit 1977, took thep position that \u201cin the case of related- -party risks, if such risks are insured of reinsured by arelated\ninsurance company\u2014one in-the same 'econamic family, the premiums involved cannot be deducted from federal taxes becabse risk -\n\n-has not Shifted from the. policyholder to. the insurer.\u201d\n: \u201cAccordingly, tl the IRS will no longer invoke the. \u2018economic fanily theory with Tespect to captive insurance transactions.\u201d\n\nAfter this\u2019 new ruling, it i is clear that the captive i is an ideal way to lay off the first loss obligation of assetholders entering into -\n\u201d- secondary market transa\u00a2tions. This ruling can-cnable Fannie Mae to set up its own credit enhancement facility. Andi in light of\n, Fannie \u00e9 Mae's credit, the capitalization costs would be minimal, =~ y\n\nPo, The DUS lenders could set ups such a fund with their DUS reserve accounts and obtain. substantial economic benefit as well as as\u201d\n- reducing I Fanni\u00e9 Ma\u00e9's exposure to the risk associated with this portfolio, That's because any policy issued by a DUS lender's\nCaptive insurance compariy: would be wrapped or fronted bya rated Teinsurer, to\n\n- My associate and I serve on the Captive Advisory Committee for the District of Columbia's Department of Insurance and Securities\nRegulation. Our new law was pattemed after the Vermont statute which is considered the best domestic jurisdictior in which to\n_ form a captive: Just one.captive has applied for and been approved to operated i in D.C. This could have all Kinds of positive \u2014\n- ramifications for Fannie Mae. : :\n\nas ode\n\n- Our associate, Kate Westover, j in Vermont, j as assisting US with \u00e9ur customers. She will be consulting with Larry Mirrel,\nthe Commissioner for. DISR on 1 June 14 while you guys at Fannie Mac will be out of town, We had hope to bring her by.\n\nMeanie, my aisaciate, Harvey Hartsfield continues to work with Rhoda on a time for Kate to make a presentation to Fannie\n\n: Mae.\n\n10514 6/6/07 12:31 PM\n\nlof2-\n\nENMA.MBW. 908054\nCONFIDENTIAL\n\n\f* . Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB _ Document 33-19 Filed 06/21/2007 _ Page6of17_ :\n\nty! \u2018Feel free to call if you have questions. . Marialice ue\n\n2of2 oe - St - - 10515 6/6/0k 12:31 PM\n\n3\n\nENMA.MBW.008052\nCONFIDENTIAL\n\f* apie insurance Cumpames\n\n: 2 Sujet Captive Insurance Companies.\n\nCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-19 Filed 06/21/2007 Page /7of17\n\nDate: Mon, 18 Jun 2061 16:29:30 -0400 *\n\n- Brom: \"Risk-Mit\" <marialice@risk-mitigation.com>. Lo:\n\u201cTor <dgoodman@redcapitalgroup. com>, crnbeisler@redeapitalgroup.cc com> \u00b0 :\nOG \u2018<bhartsfield@risk mitigation co com>, , \"Bob Jones\" \u201cbobjones@eamfnancil com> -\n\nHaney and Is saw \u2018the quotes \u2018from Davidi in an anticle | in ithe Muli:Housig News for June 2008, Glad tos sce that you guys a are - mo : So\n\n, a . \u2018anticipating another successful year in nrefinanting apatiment b baiting mortgages.\n\n. We just \u201cwanted to > reinind you that 01 our captive insuraiive company concept has just been give a \u2018boost by the new Revenue 2 Rating\n| vfrom IRS: Our associate, Kate \u2018Westover gave an excellent: presentation at at the Department of lr Insurance and. Securities Regulation\nlast week. Several of our clients were in attendance. . ,\n\n\"Kate was able to confirm for Lany. Mire! the head of DISR that the new Revenue Railing byt the RS, 2001 31, provides for the\u2019\n\nme deductibility of premiums paid to captive insurance companies by captive insurance company owners. And further bolsters the\n\n~ \u2018concept. that captive insurance companies, owned by a related company or parent, are true insurance companies. Therefore, onc\u00e9 a\n\n- _ captive issues a policy to cover the risk on a portfolio. of assets there is a true risk transfer from the related or parent campany to.\n\n: \u2018the captive. Therefore, our clients who are concemed about risk-based capital i issu\u00e9s can now form a captive insurance company, . .\n: transfer the risk of Joss of their loan portfolio to the: captive. insurance + company and get the accounting and balance sheet relief that\nthey heed. - : : . a oy\n\nAnd, if used i in connection with securitization, the captive i insurance company policy is the oredit enhancement necessary to .\n\n. . eliminate the need to ISSUE SUBORDINATE SECURITIES. '\n\nAlso, D. C \u2018has approved the first captive insurance \u00a2 company y under the new D. C captive insurane\u00e9 law. We are on the captive\n\n\u2019 \u201cadvisory committee for D.C, and are more committed than ever to bringing this innovative risk transfer concept to our customers.\n\nmo ~ We are happy to be able to provide this innovative tool te our customers on'a local basis. \u2018The off-shore jurisdictions have.\n\ndominated this busiriess for the past 30 years.\u2019 -\n\n. Let\u2019 us know if you would like to see the documestation on the revenue e ruling or want to disess the use of the captive insurance as\n\n\u201cog risk-transfer credit enhancement facility \u00a7 in your day to day operations, fetta pail Rp an\n\nlof]\n\n: - Marialice Williams :\n\nere a Eel ithule, WS\n\nbei Luh bisa: ane\n\ni\nop A Gur custorniecs\n\ntin HAAS\n\n10519 6/18/01 445 PM.\n\nFNMA.MBW.008054\nCONFIDENTIAL \u2014\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-19 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 8 of 17.\n\nFP pwowaeeunuss ab angen te Tt\n\n\u2018Subject: Presentation on 1 August a\n\n: Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 12:49:18 0400\n\nFrom: \"mail .risk-mitigation.com\" \u201cemarialice@iskomitgation, com>\n-, To: \"Rhoda E Newman\u201d <thoda:\u00a2 _hewnian@fanniemac, com>,\n <grace | huvebscher@fanniemae. com>... 0 Coon\nCC: <bhartsfi feli@risk-putigation.com> |\n\nwy We are: ooking fo forwatd to imeeting with you oni the 2ist st of August \u2018However, we want to make certain that Kate j is on. .\n\n \u201ctarget-with her presentation. Could you please let us. know if you are looking. at the captive as a potential c credit\n\nBe \u2018enhancement tool for Fannie Mae or. as a tool that the DUS lenders could use.\n\nlof!\n\nf\n\n- met with LendLease\u2019 Chief Cradit Officer and the CFO i in Dallas last week. There. appears: fo be ir interest on their\n*.\u201d part in using a captive insurance company as a risk transfer and.credit enhancement vehicle butthey were -\n. \u201cconcerned about Fannie Mae's r\u00e9action to the concept of caplive.insurance companies. . Also, it appeared to\n.. LendLease that the captive could be-very-effective if they could also lay off their 5% first loss obligation under the |\n-DUS program: to the captive i insurance company. This, question was $ raised i in my. e-mail to you back on May 30.\n\n: - Finally, could wa spend a little time discussing the other iwo questions from the Insurance companies that we e posed\nto you at the end of. May? :\n\nMy partner, Harvey Harsh eld will be working with Kate on her presentation sO pl\u00e9ase ec him on your response.\n\nThanks. Marialice .\n\nwat, eT uniter ihe\n\u2018oh May SO\n\nPei wg Gates\n\n10522 \u00a9 s6i01 12:00 PM\n\nFNMA.MBW.008057\nCONFIDENTIAL\n\f\u201cPage 9 of 17\n\nFiled 06/21/2007\n\nCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-19\n\nFUIGHISIC? FOAL OCT ppudoig pup Jatuaptfuoy\n\nCOS TPL TOE HE\n\n\u2018 ~ - . _saeie3 \u201cmaysenanid sia MI wom Faxes aujastouay uojjeuzsoyny now 40t\nOya ee lo OAT SESIOSLVYLS NOLLVOILIW Nort\n\nee . 2 my fas oS we - -NOLLATOs AALLAV TL\n\n\u00a9 tAg qwes\n\n\u2018ZIG BEE Z20e\n\nTRg9S:z  4-8z-Bnv\n\nz obeg:\n\nENMA.MBW.008060\nCONFIDENTIAL\n\fPage 10 of 17\n\nFiled 06/21/2007\n\nCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-19\n\n- _ Pap eR aAt\n: oO\nLe. oe oe mo \u201cparame, 40 9 syunoage Buryisopin poebaibes Aeset eaeu Aew (epanuy sk fg pauumo 104) onyeies Paiosuods y \u201c\u20ac\n\u201c . . \u201c-dlysieuno ou yng seunp pue suse Buyaey vendeo\n- oe ce . : oe \u201canne 10 seas 30 Juedpaied, e 2 ag fous 1 \u2018aluno uel 2 eq) 40 onydes oun UM > Ae pamsu poreaniudos ou, <\nualhsui pepuipe-uow e. M04 soupsnsil eseysind pue\n. - SLI ! 0 sunewe jueoyubis rere: 3 Ainge ou sey Worn ebupirisuy jo sekng jejoveusuoa e st paunaul Peyeansiydos ayl <\n. users Aojeinbai aoueinsuy fetofauuwos\nou 40 spisino /Spasnsuy pareonsno, fo sys aun yo aouemisuias 10 eouensul ay s! asodinid Areuiid s anydes ay L<\u00ab\n_Whaidiese eB 10: \u2018en B \u2018fuedio\u2019 sors e 08 tie ~ ftedoa souesnse) esodind Hepeds \u00a5 \u00ab\n\nCos gee sag me geandege srzeyat\n\n:Ag 1Ues |\n\nt\n\n'LEOE BEE coe\n\n*WuOS:z\n\ne ebeg\n\n- }0-82- Bry\n\nFNMA.MBW.008061\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\n\fPage 11 0f17 ~\n\nFiled 06/21/2007 ~\n\nCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-19\n\nno - : ~, : vo - \u201cauto pueio, fa POMOC} spounsu s n 49} efonuon asoysuo Supe au. i Suleseg Bpnuniog soz plig 0961 au ul\nes . mo oo xe) p auted 4999 a 7 pans eu Sumo, \u2018soSquerpe \u00bb xa. patoyo Ayre seypqwop anid arousHd\n\nge ie \u2018senbiuyoey aay ieino vem 2860) sdeyied pasn 229 sey ey weuayseus Atuy ue souesriauy andes |\n\n& . 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PLOM\n\u201cpyeuine) se sounsnsyy enndeo sezusooes mou OIVN ain - Aysnpu andes e usiigeise % Sula ae SaqBys snolsunny\ncuemer, \u2018a pemotiy \u2018painsuy sn 10}. syoquiop aucysuo Buipea, aut oulnaaq qwoulsan s0g6t ay) ul\n\n*sojouop ardusyo uy sonydes ysour 194 sabejueape xe] peyeuiuutje uouejsi6ol uowerodson ubia104 Pationuog,\nreuleouy Sunivepun,\n\n80061 hyea atiy 4 x0 out tu Pewoy Bureq\n\n\u201cuopezqunods xsi (Kquacas you) pue souBsnsuy yas peyljenb* selqonpop pel iy. \u2018seroqod. payer fenypadsonay\n\n10 sajsues, BR SANEUIONY out \u20ac\n\n-auirisse 0} Bum st 1 ureduiioa eaueinsuy ou Rul sys aney Rew Aaa s0-\n\n\u2018speunsuy peyeaysiydos \\ 104 <\n\nA A A A A\n\nfg qves\n\n S\u00a3408 BEE z0z\n\nt0-Be-Gny\n\n: TNBSSZ\n\ny-36eg\n\nFNMA.MBW.008062\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\n\fPage 120f 17)\n\nFiled 06/21/2007 |\n\nCase 1:05-cv-01 483-JDB . 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Ls os eantiog pus yea5 -\n\nCanis ky! &SsAudvo asn OL S3NNLLNOD S.G3YNISNI OG AHM\n\n:AB Was\n\nIZhOR BEE 20Z\n\nlo-g2-Sny\n\nMd9922\n\n\u201csg ebeg\n\nFNMA.MBW.008063\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\n\fPage 13 of 17\n\nFiled 06/21/2007 .\n\nCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-19\n\n_ suioasde juetsqied 10 svicihq' eojorne \u2018aiedand | enoge Z IM qusutoue ,\n\n-spudunsutal 16 5 bak pie seBero1a0 uodn Buipuadsp sow 20 sibam\n\nideo wusuisbetiou 1 Aewone oqoruuop kq auop aq 3 Ae) Nam t ONAIS ONY NOLLVuV dad NOWVOMddy\nes * Fahiep 2 t mine \u2018peanbau st\n\n\"-pasnbat jencudse O38 \"proidde pieog suum hq pouiuuayep aus\n\n\u201cuoweunb eojiensue pue Bunion Uedn Buypuedep \u2018 ssef 10 inuoii t .\n\n\u201cMOINAL sepjoysieus pue- uopesederd JQy 150K es c mony :\n\noe * : a a - fons 108 adoos = BIep sso) He Aeon uodn Supuodp ato 40 wntious t\n\nood\n\nfe bas! : nviboud BALD V ONILNSW2TaWl\n\naN GauwmuSS \u00a9 oe Se os Se Sate\n\n: oardatgn\n\nSeg - NOLLWONdav BHI ONMIS waLaY SHaaM 5 O1 PaasNaoit ATivnsh SISALdvO \u00a5.\n\nSLNaWaauOV invatouweve NOIS YO SSuVHs aNSsi th .\n\nayeon e\n\nseem | NOLLVHOdHOONI HO Tid 6\nNOLWINAWNO00 \u00ab ONILREMYSONN 8\n\n\u201c \u2018SuRaIAOUd BOIRUES. 40 NOILOSTaS \"awOWod OL LISIA \u201cgS:\n\n- NW1g ssanisna AO. WAONdav \u2018g\nNOUvavdta Nvid SSSNISNG \u2018p\npo NOLWINaNNOG AULVYOAYOD \u20186.\n\n. 2 4ants sinigisvas +1\n\nSL\n\nl WwHlvTio9 NO/ONY NOWWZITWLIEvO \u2018SiNnoSoY SINVE NadO ' He\nwo eS - sNOLuMOS ONDINVE SSvd\" SUONIO 10373 OL NUR TWNOILziNvSu0 70H 04\n\n-ONRENLONELS WvEuDOud \u201cZo\n\n\u2018\n\n' SAB ques \u00a9\n\n\u2018108 BEE 2Oz\n\n10-92-5ny\n\n\u201cnd\u00e9gie.\n\n6/9 sbeg\n\n064\nMA.MBW.008\nFT MONFIDENTIAL\n\foe oo afl \u201cseydms pue sontasay\nso simozoy. TUSUNSOAUT \u201d\n\nPage 14 of 17\n\n\u201cUppy -\n# ed\n\n=\n\n\\-. onion areRofSy\nEP. pure oyroads soy\n\n - BouBINSUTY -\n\n9 papad :\n\nwee 1. |= sandes\nOD \u00bb ree AINY\ncee 2 7B erRwID-\n\nFiled 06/21/2007\n\nsmsomimaaas amu Chek \u201cunwed\npe s2hey dono\n\n\u201c fF supssaoxg\n\nPOT . -sa9y juort sure}OYy- .\nHo Suedino3 OLY\n\nstinssy sande, \u20ac\n: | 00 -\n\nSUOISSTUWOD suTRIOY\n\nCase 1:05-cv-01483-UDB Document 33-19\n\u201ces\n\nYau\n((a00) uunyurasy ssoip) peusu9 z\n\npamsuy\n\nboa i CAN 2 oy , sanna IO MOTE aATLAVO am\n\ni AG Reg\u201d\nFNMA.MBW.008065\nCONFIDENTIAL\n\n\u20182106 BEE 20Z\n\nto-B2-Bry |\n\ntid L572\n\neft abeg\n\fPage 15 of 17\n\nFiled 06/21/2007\n\niQ ok, Hoh \u201cSANNA 40 MOTE NOLLWZILRINOAS SR\n\nCase 1:05-cv-01 483-JDB Document 33-19\n\ncoy : . hoe | sumoooy rade\n\na . . . A . | : & \u201csOxD) anid.\n\n- mS * - - a / oa : oo - i _ ant rides 1 \u00a2 \"\n\n\u201cwie vo\n\neet\n\n. eee .\n- gourenssy puog.\n\n- SOATIRALIO(] \u00ab\"\n\nF. sioyzeyy yeirdeg\nA: Bon ssesov eandeg\n\n* sniding poureg\n\nvee tee bo symosoy\n\n-paansuy yore 10F sO pretotag|\nSALLAW O-\n\n- SUOISSTUNLO suTeE}ay\n\n-\"MAOWNW |\n\n' \u2018stepjoyamyg oad 10\u00b0 -\nSINY alouavd CRINSNI ATLL\n\n1 4g ques\n\n10-82 -Ony\n\n*HdLS:Z\n\n6/8 abeg\n\n_ E\u00a3b0B. BER Z0z\n\nFNMA.MBW.008066\nCONFIDENTIAL\n\fPage 16 0f17\n\nFiled 06/21/2007\n\n_ Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB = Document 33-19\n\noS Caw Le * 7 4pauinbed Buunzoniys weiGold pue sjsfjeue sso) aya\nwo - Es \u2018o00's$ LULU \u2018wIntueld jo juaoied & 1 xe} Luniasd\n\nCee Sa So \"epntueg ut jpuond\u00e9 Quouuien 104 pasinber \u2018siorenGal \u2018sie\n\nSt OOO 00'S Son's\nOUR OU THR\n\nSOOT OE BRET\n\n| BMOHSadOYO.NO' | ANOWNSA: \u2014 \u2014 yaneae\n-/))) QBYOSNOdS\u201d > | BUN Bund\n\nan hlouasaus 70 HOREOO| PUE sOupeous piedq 40} Busjaned) suosiad jo saquinti vo yuapuadag \u201cIA\nUM PUP sadtnies Bugunosor. 0 addons Aq paused NA\n\u2018Pauinba: UoneoYEo aaresau JaUyouiA 49 @fforwop Aq paulliuajad - \u201c1A\n\nMAG aHses YUM SSW OF SILO OF SISIA \u201cAI\n\nPSUIULUGISP Bq [WM S}$S09 |EUOMPMY +)\n\n- a SeBvelyo BujoBu0 payruines OL\n\n| COTE, ~ 0009 _. Bugasy siojaug jo pieog \u2018iia\n\noh \" on oo . : : or 000108: oS goo'ss - -. ~ 0a0'ss - oe . BB2YD jendegwey Aueduiog jueweieueyy \u20181A\n\nCONG .000'6 \u00b0 mo xe] Aueduio3 ee} esueny JEQuUny \u201c1A,\n\n2X3 DUIOBUG (g\n\n000%. 0009... | SHURE PUB [BARI] \u201cAL\n\n\u201cog o0'0rg a! oon\u2018ors . ueid ssauisng 10 uoneaydde sof Apmys Aiaiseay 1\n\nSS SSO TOREMETZ (y\n\n/ on net oy [me (x2) peuepey- pue Buypuey Sune} *\u2018sOUemNsulat #B\\s00 Bulprraxe \u2018eoyeuigse eaijenesuey)\n\n1+ SAU AYD GAYOSNOUS HO Bild HOt S450 ONILYYSIO ONY NOLLVNYO4 BAUD QALY HIS\n\npue Ved ssaujeng jo adoas Aq peujuaieg. \u201cA.\n\n, a So a] JO UORDATES Aq Paullaieg 11 -\nPo Ea Rees oe Ss aidippaydde say 294 Melnal Jo 4eqdes areus to tinoure Li eq ew\nwe os lee . _\u201cediape Bugunosoe pue re69} \u2018xe} jeuoissajaud pue aun fevenjoe yo junawe fq SULUGTep OG lime ae EN\n\n[RBM Y puR ypny \u2018a\nco os SBURYD UOHeUZOS preUiBse [OL\n\na mo we $000'9\u20ac$, BT POSE 20DIg~ | _. S88j UOHeNsiBau pub uoneaiddy 4 |\n\nrAg@ ques\n\n'\n\n'z10e BEE z0z\n\n\u2018y0-82-5ny\n\nTWdLS22\n\n6/6 ebeg\n\n7\nNMA.MBW.00806\nF CONFIDENTIAL\n\f\u201cWashington Mutual Transaction\n\n\u2019 Bob\u2019 Jones wrote:\n\nCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-19 \u2014 Filed 06/21/2007 |\n\n~ Subject: Washingto\u2019 Mutual \u2018Transaction\n. Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 09:45:56 -0500 -\nFrom: Bob Jones Sbobjones(@ecan\u00bb financial. cc coni>\n\n_ Fo: marialice(@risk-mitigation. com, amover@belsoutnet, bobjones enfin nancial com \u201c. me -\n\n\u201cl Marialice, Karl retumed my cal. \" No- ingucance. | Fannie Mae requized.a a.\n\nofl |\n\nspread account that accrues { no Front end $ ) to 50 bpts plus first -\n\n\u2018 loss\u201d recourse of some number -(confidential)} south of: 4%..: Fannie Mae's\u201d\n\ninitial recourse level was 63.: The portfolio bas 12\u00b0 year: weighted\n\n| average seasoning: Fanhie.Mae wouldn't. \u2018disclose. its CER, bat Kark used\na CPR of 4%, He was very happy with this deal,- Lo -\n\n, : He also told\u2019 me \u2018the average. \u2018recourse. on a Fannie Mae \u2018DUS portfolio. swap\u2019\n\nranges from 9 to Ate: Real \u201cinteresting, T \"hope, this. information\u2019 is -\n\nwe helpful:\n\n: Good luck on the, captive presentation with, Kate and, Fannie Mae next\noo week. - cot Foy So,\n\nPage 17 of 17 \u2014\n\nSoap eg,\n\nCONFIDE\n\n40537 |. .\n* \u201cet6vol 9:49 AM\nENMA.MBW.008069\n\nNTIAL\n\n","ocr_status":1,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:46:26-07:00","document_number":"33","attachment_number":18,"pacer_doc_id":"04501888662","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":2,"description":"Exhibit Exhibit Q - Westover Declaration","acms_document_guid":""},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686759/","id":2686759,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/33/19/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.783519-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:10.195322-08:00","sha1":"d9e8d8fd829114136066ccc83b88f1ef295b565e","page_count":2,"file_size":41583,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.19.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.19.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":"Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-20 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 1 of2\n\nEXHIBIT R\n\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-20 Filed 06/21/2007 Page2of2\n\ni <P rad re ee ed \"ye\n\n: oo \u2018Subject: Presentation on August 21\". ont\n\nDate: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 12:49:18 -0400 -\n\noo) From: \"mail-risk-mitigation.com\u201d <matialice@risk-mitigation.com>.\n2\"... Tor \"Rhoda E Newman\u201d <rhoda\n\n\u2018\u00a2 @ newman@fanniemae.com>; - .\n.. ._ Sgrace_huebscher@fanniemae.com> 0\u00b0)\". 5\nCC: <hharisfield@risk-mitigation.com>: -\n\n* We \u2018are-looking forward to inieeting with you ofi the 21st of Augusk However, we want to make certain that Kate ison. |\n' target with her presentation. Could you please let us know if you are looking at the captive as @ potential credit\n\n. ~, \u201cenhancement tool for Fannie Mae or as a tool that the DUS ienders could use,\n\nONS of\n\n\" Tmet with LendLease\u2019 Chief Cr\u00e9dit Officer and tha GFO in Dallas tast week. There-appears to be iriterast on their\n*.\u2019 part in using a captive insurance company as a risk transfer and credit enhancement vehicle but they were\n\n\u201cconcerned about Fannie Mae's r\u00e9action to the concept of captive insurance companies. . Also, it appeared to\n\n_: LendLease that the captive could be-very.effective if they could also lay off their 5% first loss obligation under the | .\n: -DUS program to the captive insurance company. This question was raised in my e-mail to you back on May 30,\n\n- Finally, could we spand a little time discussing the other two questions from the insurance companies that we posed.\n\nto you at the end of May?\n\n\"+ My pariner, Harv\u00e9y Hartsfield will be working with Kate on her presentation so please cc him on your response,\n\n\u2019 Thanks. Mariaiice . =.\n\nwee atedd Roe rt ey.\n\nma Rh we de\n\nwere Fo. - sworn Sit Uren Ure\noo St May CO\n\nSe sl Gee Gael\n\n10522 \u2014 syi07 12:00PM\n\nFNMA.MBW.008057\nCONFIDENTIAL\n","ocr_status":1,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:41:07-07:00","document_number":"33","attachment_number":19,"pacer_doc_id":"04501888459","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":2,"description":"Exhibit Exhibit R - Production Document","acms_document_guid":""},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686760/","id":2686760,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/33/20/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.791924-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:10.206992-08:00","sha1":"3f8dec8e1ed88309bb8bae5fd68528838ce2c212","page_count":10,"file_size":238332,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.20.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.20.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":"Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-21 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 1 of 10\n\nEXHIBITS\n\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-21 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 2 of 10\n\n00001\n1\n\n2 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\n3 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF MISSISSIPPI\n\n4 SOUTHERN DIVISION\n\n5 x\n\n6 CAM FINANCIAL SERVICES INC.,\n7 Plaintiff,\n8 -against- No. 1:01cv314BrR\n\n9 GENERAL STAR NATIONAL INSURANCE COMPANY;\nGENERAL STAR INDEMNITY COMPANY; GENERAL\n\n10 STAR MANAGEMENT COMPANY; GENERAL RE\nCORPORATION; GENERAL REINSURANCE\n\n11 CORPORATION; CRUMP INSURANCE SERVICES OF\nMEMPHIS INC.; FEDERAL NATIONAL MORTGAGE\n\n12 ASSOCIATION (FANNIE MAB),\n\n13 Defendants.\n\nx\n14\n\nJanuary 19, 2004\n15 9:19 a.m.\n\n16 Videotaped deposition of CRAIG J. OTT,\n\n17 taken by Plaintiff, pursuant to notice, at\n\n18 the offices of Dewey Ballantine LLP, 1301\n\n19 Avenue of the Americas, New York, New York,\n20 before Gail F. Schorr, a Certified Shorthand\n\n21 Reporter, Certified Realtime Reporter and\n\n22 Notary Public within and for the State of\n\n23 New York.\n\n24\n\n25\n\nJan 19, 2004 - CAM of Craig Ott Page 1\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.004939\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-21\n\n00002\n\n1\n2 APPEARANCES:\n\n3 LUMPKIN & REEVES\nAttorneys for Plaintiff\n4 160 Main Street\nBiloxi, Mississippi 39533\n\n5\nBY: JAMES R. REEVES, ESQ.\n6\n7\nBYRD & WISER\n8 Attorneys for Plaintiff\n145 Main Street\n9 P.O. Box 1939 (39533)\nBiloxi, Mississippi 39530\n10\nBY: NICHOLAS VAN WISER, ESQ.\n11\n12\n\nMcGLINCHEY STAFFORD PLLC\n13 ~\u2014s Attorneys for Defendant FEDERAL\nNATIONAL MORTGAGE ASSOCIATION (FANNIE\n\n14 MAB)\n643 Magazine Street\n15 New Orleans, Louisiana 70130\n16 BY: GERARD E. WIMBERLY, JR., ESQ.\n~and-\n17 CYNTHIA L. BROWNE, ESQ.\n\n18\n\n19 DEWEY BALLANTINE LLP\nAttorneys for Defendant GENERAL STAR\n20 1301 Avenue of the Americas\nNew York, New York 10019-6092\n21\nBY: DAVID J. GRAIS, ESQ.\n22\n\n23\n24\n25\n\nFiled 06/21/2007\n\nJan 19, 2004 - CAM of Craig Ott\n\nPage 3 of 10\n\nPage 2\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.004940\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-21 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 4of 10\n\n00014\n1 CRAIG J. OTT\n\n2 courses?\n\n3 A. No, sir.\n\n4 Q. Where is Pace University?\n\n5 A. New York City.\n\n6 Q. Allright. Did you attend\n\n7 those at night while you maintained your\n\n8 full-time job?\n\n9 A. That's correct.\n\n10 Q. Walk me forward with your work\n\n11 history from the time that you graduated\n12 undergraduate -- from the undergraduate\n13 college in I think '68 you said. Tell us\n\n14 the various jobs that you've held up to the\n15 time that you went to work with the Gen Star\n16 companies?\n\n17 A. I worked for Aetna C&S in\n\n18 Rochester, New York.\n\n19 Q. [il tell you, so we don't\n\n20 interrupt you flow, I'll interrupt you here,\n21 but as you go through this if you can tell\n22 me generally what your job title was and a\n23 brief description of what you did it will\n24 save us from having to come back and ask\n\n25 that question once you're through.\n\nJan 19, 2004 - CAM of Craig Ott Page 14\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.004952\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-21 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 5of10\n\n00015\n1 CRAIG J. OTT\n\n2 A. Okay. I worked for Aetna. C&S\n\n3 in Rochester, New York, for an agency as an\n4 underwriter, performing typical underwriting\n5 duties.\n\n6 [left there and moved\n\n7 after -- that was after I was discharged\n\n8 from the army in 1970. So I moved to New\n9 Jersey in 1972 where I took a position with\n10 Reynolds Securities, a New York Stock\n\n11 Exchange firm as a registered\n\n12 representative. I worked as a stock broker\n13 there for two years. [left there and went\n\n14 to -- took a position with General\n\n15 Reinsurance Corporation as an underwriter.\n16 Q. Approximately what year would\n\n17 that have been?\n\n18 A. 1973.\n\n19 Q. You hired on there at Gen Re\n\n20 as an underwriter?\n\n21 A. Yes.\n\n22 Q. Tell us in a very summary\n\n23 fashion generally what an underwriter at Gen\n24 Re, Gen Star Company does?\n\n25 A. The position I held was\n\nJan 19, 2004 - CAM of Craig Ott Page 15\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.004953\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-21 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 6of10\n\n00016\n1 CRAIG J. OTT\n\n2 property facultative underwriter. I\n\n3 entertained risk submissions from insurance\n4 companies for the purpose of mitigating,\n\n5 transferring, reducing risk on their part.\n\n6 Facultative reinsurance is an\n\n7 account-by-account acceptance, risk\n\n8 acceptance process.\n\n9 I left General Re in 1977,\n\n10 \u201878, I'm not clear on that. \u201878, I believe.\n\n11 Q. Why did you leave?\n\n12 A. To start my own business. I\n\n13 went to work as a broker at a small firm\n\n14 called RFC Intermediaries. I worked there\n15 for one year as a property facultative\n\n16 reinsurance broker. I then left there and\n\n17 started my own business called First\n\n18 Manhattan Intermediaries in 1978.\n\n19 First Manhattan Intermediaries\n\n20 was a reinsurance brokerage firm. We had an\n21 office in New York. A year later we opened\n22 an office in Chicago. We had about 20 - as\n23 Irecall, 20 to 25 employees. We were\n\n24 acquired by Alexander & Alexander in 1981 --\n25 '83, 1983 I believe it was.\n\nJan 19, 2004 - CAM of Craig Ott Page 16\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.004954\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-21 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 7 of 10\n\n00017\n1 CRAIG J. OTT\n\n2 Q. Where did you go next?\n\n3 A. That acquisition was -- we\n\n4 were made part of a subsidiary of Alexander\n5 & Alexander known as Thomas A. Greene &\n6 Company. I worked there until 1988. I left\n7 there to join another reinsurance brokerage\n8 firm called -- I don't remember what it was\n9 called at the time. It was in a transition.\n\n10 It became Aon Risk Services I believe was\n11 the final name.\n\n12 Q. Aon Risk Services?\n\n13 A. I believe that was it. It was\n\n14 not -- you cannot use the word reinsurance\n15 in a brokerage name, so. And it wasn't Aon\n16 Re. I believe it was Aon Risk Services. I\n17 worked there for one year and I was\n\n18 recruited away by another firm known as John\n19 F. Sullivan Company in Philadelphia,\n\n20 Pennsylvania.\n\n21 Q. Sorry, backing up. What did\n\n22 you do at Aon Risk Services?\n\n23 A. Reinsurance broker, same as\n\n24 Thomas A. Greene before that.\n\n25 Q. Allright. We're up to\n\nJan 19, 2004 - CAM of Craig Ott Page 17\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.004955\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-21 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 8of 10\n\n00018\n1 CRAIG J. OTT\n\n2 Sullivan. What did you do there?\n\n3 A. Reinsurance broker. I worked\n\n4 there until 1995. During that time I was a\n5 reinsurance broker and worked on information\n6 systems based reinsurance projects. I\n\n7 worked at General Star in 1995. I worked\n8 there for five years until 2000, 2000.\n\n9 Q. Did you hold the same job\n\n10 title or position during your entire tenure?\n11 A. At which?\n\n12 Q. At Gen Star.\n\n13 A. At Gen Star. No, I was\n\n14 promoted once while I was there.\n\n15 Q. What was your initial hire-in\n\n16 title?\n\n17 A. Second vice president. I was\n\n18 promoted to vice president.\n\n19 Q. When was that promotion?\n\n20 A. I would say it was perhaps in\n\n21 1997.\n\n22 Q. Were you second vice\n\n23 president, vice president of any particular\n24 division?\n\n25 A. Yes.\n\nJan 19, 2004 - CAM of Craig Ott Page 18\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.004956\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-21 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 9of10\n\n00019\n1 CRAIG J. OTT\n\n2 Q. What division?\n\n3 A. Iwas responsible for the\n\n4 operation of the property division of\n\n5 General Star.\n\n6 Q. From 1997 up until the time\n\n7 that you left Gen Star in 2000, who was your\n8 supervisor?\n\n9 A. Kevin Brooks.\n\n10 Q. Was he your supervisor during\n\n11 the entire time that you worked at Gen Star?\n12 A. That's correct.\n\n13 Q. So there was no level of\n\n14 supervisor between you and Kevin Brooks?\n15 A. No, sir.\n\n16 Q. Who did you supervise?\n\n17 A. Thad five branch offices,\n\n18 Atlanta, Dallas, Chicago, New York and Los\n19 Angeles. So I supervised the managers of\n20 the property department in those five\n\n21 offices.\n\n22 Q. Allright. Who were they?\n\n23 A. Atlanta was Cliff Groover.\n\n24 Dallas was Jerry Miller. Los Angeles,\n\n25 Michael Denton. New York, Robert Wenzel.\n\nJan 19, 2004 - CAM of Craig Ott Page 19\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.004957\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-21 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 10 of 10\n\n00020\n1 CRAIG J. OTT\n\n2 And Chicago, Bruce Wise. And there was some\n3 turnover during that time, but those were\n\n4 the original contacts in those five offices.\n\n5 Q. Describe for us your duties\n\n6 and responsibilities on a typical, routine\n\n7 daily or weekly basis during this time\n\n8 period at Gen Star.\n\n9 MS. BERGIN: Object to the\n\n10 form.\n\n11 A. My responsibility was to\n\n12 manage the affairs of those, the individuals\n13 in those departments regarding their\n\n14 direction of production, their focus on\n\n15 products, and of course the goal was to\n\n16 generate an underwriting profit.\n\n17 Q. How often did you meet with\n\n18 Mr. Brooks?\n\n19 A. There was no -- we had monthly\n\n20 meetings. Other than that, there were no\n21 set pattern -- there was no set pattern of\n\n22 meetings, but I would say that we met\n\n23 intermittently perhaps once every other\n\n24 week. And we would have an annual meeting\n\n25 as well as an annual planning meeting.\n\nJan 19, 2004 - CAM of Craig Ott Page 20\n\nCONFIDENTIAL\nFNMA.MBW.004958\n","ocr_status":1,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:40:47-07:00","document_number":"33","attachment_number":20,"pacer_doc_id":"04501888624","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":2,"description":"Exhibit Exhibit S - Ott Deposition Excerpts","acms_document_guid":""},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686761/","id":2686761,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/33/21/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.800341-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:10.221612-08:00","sha1":"e6043f5f2733a693aeb617aaa5da9e57e1bfba16","page_count":4,"file_size":94694,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.21.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.21.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":"Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-22 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 1 of 4\n\nEXHIBIT T\n\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-22\n\na ., Subject: Re: Fannie Mae Draft letter. o\n\u201cor: |) Dater Wed, 02 May 2001'15:55:54 0500.\n\n\"From: Bob Jones <bobjones@cam-financial.com>\n|\u201d... Yo: Marialice Williams <marialice@worldnet.att.net>\n\n.. Bob Jones wrote:\n\nFiled 06/21/2007 Page 2 of 4\n\n.-Mariali\u00a2e, although this is. somewhat sensitive, I don't have a. problem with the oS\n\n| letter and I believe you should send it te \u2018Grace\u00e9.-\n\n\u201cprotect each \u2018other. in our prior agreed: to Brokers .A\n\n. Fannie Mae.s \u00b0\n_. Maxialice Williams wrote: 4\n>\n> | 2nceding: quoted-printable\n>\n>\n>\n\n|. \u00a3xplanation of cam and RMS.doe\n\n) Part 4.3.1 - Type: Plain Text (text/plain) 9\u00b0\n\n\"Name: Explanation\nType: Winword File fapplication/msword)\nEncoding: base64 wort, St\n\nI believe RMS and.cAM WILL Ut\ngreement on this coverage for\n\nof CAM and\u2019 RMS. doc\n\n10478 2201646 AM\n\nFNMA.MBW.007996\nCONFIDENTIAL\n\f*. Dear Grace;\n\n. the best and lowest cost insurance available to meet their needs.\n\nCase 1:05-cv-01483-UDB Document 33-22 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 3 of 4\n\n| First, 1 want to thank you for the delightful iunch tast week with Rhoda: Itwas <=\n\n: ve , good catching up with you two, Second, \u2018| want to-thank you for the opportunity - | : es\n\n\"to pursue a Solution for our clients to obtain relief from their mezzanine loss. -\n* -. Coverage obligation under the DUS program. Therefore, | welcome the -\n\n\"opportunity to clearly define \u2018the relationship batween my comipariy, Risk a\n\"> Mitigation Strategists, LLC (\"RMS\") and CAM Financial Services, Inc. (\"GAM\"). _-- aos\n_. Vwas in Atlanta yesterday and had lunch with Bob Jones, President of CAM.\u201d\n.\". .Bob indicated that he had transmitted an e-mail to you and Rhoda indicating that .- -\n-  - AIG may have an interest in providing insurance coverage for mezzanine levels\n\u201c. Of risk. a\n\n~ My'company, RMS, is licensed to do business in Washington, D.C. CAM and 0\nRMS do not have any connection with respect to ownership and no one from: | |\n_ CAM or RMS has an interest in the other's business ventures. \u2018However, CAM _\n_and RMS have a broker agreement that is commen in the insuranca business. \u00a9\nThe agreement indicates that when CAM locales an insurance company for a\n\n.. Project that RMS jis working on, RMS agrees fo compensate CAM through some. ~~\n\nfonn of split commission, However, it does not mean that CAM plays any rolein .\n\u2018the development of the program or project that RMS is working on nor does CAM o\ninterface with the customers. Be vo\n\n_ My company has relationships with numerous insurance brokers and carriers\u2019...\nwith whom we have signed confidentiality agreements. Due to tha innovative \u2014\n-and unique ways that our customers utilize insurance to solve their problems of. \u2014\n\n. covering different types of risk, we plan to continue to use our network of i:\nresources to assist our customers, many of whom are DUS lenders, in obtaining\n\nBefore Heft Fannie Mae, | assisted in negotiating an agreement between CAM\n\nand Fannie Mae that provided CAM with the opportunity to seek insurance-based .- wo\nsolutions for risk coverage in the Securitization program of the Negotiated 9 \u2014-\nTransaction's department. } do nol believe that the agreement between Fannie\n\nMae and CAM contemplated extending CAM\u2019s authority to work on any aspect of\n\nrisk coverage for Fannie Mae\u2019s DUS program. \u2014 ct\n\n\u2018Therefore, unless otherwise instructed by you, -RMS will continue to work on<.\n\"behalf of its clients io obtain insurance that will cover the 5-20% risk coverage\n\nobligation or mezzanine levet or risk Coverage as required by Fannie Mae under \u00bb\n\nits DUS program. \u2018 ot * Las\n\neb\n\n10479\n\nweer tae\nowt\n\n: a oe 97\nss ENMA.MBW.0073\nCONFIDENTIAL\n\fSag: Sincerely, Lp\n\nCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-22\n\n-.Marialice Wiliams\n\nFiled 06/21/2007 Page 4of4\n\ntier ele\n\n10480\n\nFNMA.MBW.007998\nCONFIDENTIAL\n","ocr_status":1,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:40:01-07:00","document_number":"33","attachment_number":21,"pacer_doc_id":"04501888865","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":2,"description":"Exhibit Exhibit T - Production Document","acms_document_guid":""},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686762/","id":2686762,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/33/22/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.808452-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:10.236742-08:00","sha1":"9b7a20ed7575ebff6c01c956ac3fa8db08ff6e0b","page_count":3,"file_size":113616,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.22.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.22.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":"Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-23 Filed 06/21/2007 Page1 of 3\n\nIN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\nFOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA\n\n \n\nMARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS,\n\nPlaintiff,\n\nCivil Action No. 1:05CV01483\nvs. -\nJudge John D. Bates\nFEDERAL NATIONAL MORTGAGE\n\n \n\nASSOCIATION, et al.\n: DECLARATION OF KYRA\nDefendants. 1 GRUNDEMAN\nI, Kyra A. Grundeman, hereby declare as follows:\n1. 1 am counsel for defendant Federal National Mortgage Association (\u201cFannie\n\nMae\u201d), Richard Lawch, and Grace Huebscher (collectively, \u201cdefendants\u201d) in the above-captioned\naction. 1 am over eighteen years of age, and the statements made herein are based on my\npersonal knowledge, unless otherwise indicated.\n\n2. Attached to defendants\u2019 Memorandurn in Support of Motion for Summary\nJudgrnent are true and correct copies of the following documents:\n\nExh. A Declaration of Grace Huebscher, with true and correct copies of excerpts\nof depositions taken in the lawsuit entitled CAM Financial Services, Inc. v.\nGeneral Star Nat \u2019l Insurance Co., et al. , Civil Action No. 01 -3 14 (S.D.\nMiss.) (\u201cCAM Financial lawsuit\u201d) attached at Tab 1 of EXhibit A.\n\nExh. B March 28, 2007 Deposition of Marialice Williams, with a true and correct\ncopy of Exhibit 1 of this deposition, Bates-labeled FNMA.MBW.OOSOIS-\n8018, attached at Tab l of Exhibit B.\n\nExh. C Defendant Fannie Mae\u2019s Response to Plaintifi\u2019 s First Set of\nInterrogatories.\n\nExh. D Declaration of Richard Lawch.\n\nExh. E Excerpts from the March Zl, 2003 Deposition of Marialice Williams,\n\nCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-23 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 2 of 3\n\nExh. F\n\nExh. G\n\nExh. H\n\nExh. I\nExh. J\nExh. K\n\nExh. L\n\nExh. M\n\nExh. N\n\nExh. O\n\nExh. P\n\nExh. Q\nExh. R\n\nExh. S\n\nExh. T\n\ntaken in the CAM Financial lawsuit.\n\nMay 7, 2007 Deposition of Marialice Williams, with a true and correct\ncopy of Exhibit 10 of this deposition, attached at Tab 1 of Exhibit F.\n\nDistrict of Columbia Certiiicate of Revocation.\n\nApril ll, 2007 Deposition of Robert Jones, with a true and correct copy of\nExhibit 2 of this deposition, Bates-labeled FNMA.MBW.008002-8004,\nattached at Tab 1 of Exhibit H; a true and correct copy of Exhibit 4 of this\ndeposition, Bates-labeled FNMA.MBW.007369-7370, attached at Tab 2\nof Exhibit H; and a true and correct copy of Exhibit 7 of this deposition,\nBates~labeled FNMA.MBW.006230-6232, FNMA.MBW.008031,\nattached at Tab 3 of EXhibit H.\n\nCAM Financial Litigation Arnended Complaint.\nCAM Financial Litigation Disrnissal Order.\nPlaintift\u2019 s Answer to Defendants\u2019 Interrogatory Requests.\n\nExcerpts from the March 17 , 2003 Deposition of Marialice Williarns,\ntaken in the CAM Financial lawsuit.\n\nDistrict of Columbia Department of Insurance, Securities & Banking\nLicensee Look-Up.\n\nMarialice Williams\u2019 Draft Complaint.\n\nExcerpts from the May 5, 2003 Deposition of Marialice Williams, taken in\nthe CAM Financial lawsuit.\n\nExcerpts from the May 6, 2003 Deposition of Marialice Williams, taken in\nthe CAM Financial lawsuit.\n\nDeclaration of Kathryn Westover.\n\nDocument Bates-labeled FNMA.MBW.008057, produced by defendants\nin this litigation\n\nExcerpts from the Jan. 19, 2004 Deposition of Craig Ott, taken in the\nCAM Financial lawsuit.\n\nDocument Bates-labeled FNMA.MBW.007996-7998, produced by\ndefendants in this litigation\n\nCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-23 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 3 of 3\n\nI declare under penalty of perjury that the foregoing is true and correct. Executed on\n\nJune 21, 2007 at Washington, D.C.\n\n    \n\n \n\nv\n\nYRA A. GRUNDEMAN\n\nc\n\n","ocr_status":1,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:45:40-07:00","document_number":"33","attachment_number":22,"pacer_doc_id":"04501888427","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":2,"description":"Affidavit Declaration of K Grundeman","acms_document_guid":""},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686763/","id":2686763,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/33/23/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.815323-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:10.250360-08:00","sha1":"a4af0f63736512de961da558d474061aaa537a71","page_count":6,"file_size":36480,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.23.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.23.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":"    Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB            Document 33-24        Filed 06/21/2007      Page 1 of 6\n\n\n\n                         IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\n                             FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA\n\n____________________________________\nMARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS,          :\n                                     :                Civil Action No. 1:05CV01483\n      Plaintiff,                     :\n                                     :\n      vs.                            :                Judge John D. Bates\n                                     :\nFEDERAL NATIONAL MORTGAGE            :\n      ASSOCIATION, et al.            :\n                                     :\n                                     :\n      Defendants.                    :\n____________________________________:\n\n            DEFENDANTS FEDERAL NATIONAL MORTGAGE ASSOCIATION,\n                  RICHARD LAWCH, AND GRACE HUEBSCHER\u2019S\n                 STATEMENT OF UNDISPUTED MATERIAL FACTS\n\n       Defendants\u2019 1 motion for summary judgment is based on the following undisputed\n\nmaterial facts:\n\n       1.         Plaintiff Marialice Bathrus Williams (\u201cplaintiff\u201d) was employed by Fannie Mae as\n\na director in its multifamily unit from January 1990 through June 1998, when she voluntarily left\n\nto join CAM Financial Services, Inc. (\u201cCAM\u201d). (Am. Compl. \u00b6\u00b6 11; March 28, 2007 Williams\n\nDep. at 73:19-22.)\n\n       2.         In 1997, Fannie Mae and CAM entered into a memorandum of understanding\n\nconcerning multifamily credit risk insurance. (See CAM Amended Complaint \u00b6 16.)\n\n       3.         From 1997 through 1999, Fannie Mae used CAM as an insurance broker for the\n\nprocurement of non-DUS multifamily credit risk insurance. (See CAM Amended Complaint.)\n\n       4.         After plaintiff resigned from Fannie Mae, she was unable to reach a mutually-\n\nacceptable agreement with CAM. (See March 21, 2003 Williams Dep. at 226:5-10.)\n\f    Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB             Document 33-24           Filed 06/21/2007         Page 2 of 6\n\n\n\n        5.      In October 1998, plaintiff formed Risk Mitigation Strategists, LLC (\u201cRMS\u201d), a\n\nlimited liability company, wholly-owned by plaintiff, to \u201cpursue the business [plaintiff] had been\n\ndoing at Fannie Mae prior to [her] departure.\u201d (Amended Compl. \u00b6\u00b6 31-32; March 28, 2007\n\nWilliams Dep. at 20:17-20; May 7, 2007 Williams Dep. at 300:19-20; District of Columbia\n\nCertificate of Revocation.)\n\n        6.      Although CAM and plaintiff talked about a joint venture, they never actually\n\nentered into an agreement. (See Jones Dep. at 31:2-25.)\n\n        7.      RMS and CAM did not have \u201cany connection with respect to ownership and no\n\none from CAM or RMS has an interest in the other\u2019s business ventures.\u201d (Jones Dep. Exh. 2, at\n\nFNMA.MBW.008003.)\n\n        8.      CAM\u2019s president Bob Jones could only recall two Fannie Mae-related projects or\n\npresentations that RMS or plaintiff worked on with CAM: The May 2001 Delegated\n\nUnderwriting and Servicing (\u201cDUS\u201d) proposal and a presentation on captive insurance. (See\n\nJones Dep. at 58-59.)\n\n        9.      In May 2001, RMS made a proposal to Fannie Mae to \u201clay[] off risk associated\n\nwith [Fannie Mae\u2019s] [DUS] Program,\u201d (Williams Interrog. Resp. No. 3) and \u201csecure the\n\ninsurance and the DUS lenders as clients and bring the deal back to Fannie Mae\u201d (hereinafter,\n\n\u201cMay 2001 Proposal\u201d). (Williams Interrog. Resp. No. 4; see also March 28, 2007 Williams Dep.\n\nat 36:13-20; May 7, 2007 Williams Dep. at 154:10-14; Jones Dep. Exh. 2.)\n\n        10.     On May 15, 2001, Jones copied plaintiff on an e-mail to Stephen Noble from\n\nZurich Insurance concerning RMS\u2019 \u201cProposal to Provide Insurance Coverage for . . . Fannie\n\nMae\u2019s Delegated Underwriting Servicing Program.\u201d (March 28, 2007 Williams Dep. Exh. 1.)\n\n\n1\n       Collectively, Federal National Mortgage Association (\u201cFannie Mae\u201d), Richard Lawch (\u201cLawch\u201d), and\nGrace Huebscher (\u201cHuebscher\u201d).\n\n\n                                                     2\n\f    Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 33-24         Filed 06/21/2007       Page 3 of 6\n\n\n\nThis e-mail outlined RMS\u2019 May 2001 proposal, and indicated that plaintiff and CAM president\n\nJones hoped to be able to share performance data \u201cbased on your interest in a potential\n\ntransaction.\u201d (Id.)\n\n        11.     Fannie Mae\u2019s DUS program involves a small group of multifamily lenders who\n\nhave the right to commit Fannie Mae, on a loan-by-loan basis, to purchase multifamily loans.\n\n(See March 25, 2003 Huebscher Dep. at 14:7-15.) In exchange, these DUS lenders share the risk\n\nof loss with Fannie Mae. (See id.; March 28, 2003 Williams Dep. at 27:4-13.)\n\n        12.     On May 31, 2001, Ms. Huebscher forwarded an e-mail from plaintiff indicating\n\nRMS\u2019s interest in pursuing insurance for the DUS program to her supervisor, Mr. Lawch. (See\n\nJones Dep. Exh. 7, at FNMA.MBW.006230.)\n\n        13.     In May 2001, the Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight (OFHEO) was\n\nin the midst of finalizing a new, risk-based capital rule, and Fannie Mae was concerned about the\n\nregulation\u2019s potential impact on its DUS program. (See March 26, 2003 Huebscher Dep. at\n\n463:7-14.)\n\n        14.     In July 2001, shortly after Fannie Mae received plaintiff\u2019s e-mail, OFHEO issued\n\nits final risk-based capital rule. The final rule contained significant revisions from OFHEO\u2019s\n\npreviously proposed rule, including, among other things, cutting in half the capital impact of risk\n\nsharing with DUS lenders. (See Risk-Based Capital, 66 Fed. Reg. 47730 (September 13, 2001)\n\n(codified at 12 C.F.R. part 1750); Risk-Based Capital, 64 Fed. Reg. 18084 (April 13, 1999);\n\nFannie Mae\u2019s Interrog. Resp. No. 7.)\n\n        15.     The final rule obviated the need for Fannie Mae to obtain insurance for capital\n\npurposes and Fannie Mae did not pursue DUS insurance coverage at the time because it was\n\n\n\n\n                                                 3\n\f    Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 33-24         Filed 06/21/2007      Page 4 of 6\n\n\n\ninconsistent with the risk sharing nature of Fannie Mae\u2019s business model. (See March 26, 2003\n\nHuebscher Dep. at 449:12-25; see, e.g., Fannie Mae\u2019s Interrog. Resp. No. 7.)\n\n       16.     Fannie Mae did not pursue the DUS proposal with either RMS or Craig Ott. (See\n\nMarch 26, 2003 Huebscher Dep. at 449:12-25; see, e.g., Fannie Mae\u2019s Interrog. Resp. No. 7.)\n\n       17.     Plaintiff testified that she recognized in mid-2001 that Fannie Mae was not going\n\nto consummate the proposed DUS transaction with her. (See, e.g., March 17, 2003 Williams\n\nDep. at 88, 91, 102, 104, 121.)\n\n       18.     CAM stopped working on the May 2001 proposal in August 2001 because it\n\nheard from plaintiff that Fannie Mae was not pursuing the proposal. (See Jones Dep at 54.)\n\n       19.     The captive insurance presentation by Kate Westover, at which plaintiff, Kate\n\nWestover, and Fannie Mae representatives were present, occurred on August 21, 2001. (See\n\nMay 6, 2003 Williams Dep. at 128:25-129:13; May 6, 2003 Williams Dep. at 128:25-129:13;\n\nJones Dep. at 54-55; Affidavit of Kathryn Westover; FNMA.MBW.008057.)\n\n       20.     Plaintiff determined that defendants did not wish to pursue a business relationship\n\nor particular contracts with her after they stopped returning her phone calls and e-mails following\n\nthe captive insurance meeting. (See Amended Compl. \u00b6 53; May 7, 2007 Williams Dep. at\n\n196:19-21; May 5, 2003 Williams Dep. at 32-33.)\n\n       21.     Fannie Mae and CAM did not enter into any insurance transactions after 1999.\n\n(See CAM Amended Complaint \u00b6\u00b6 48, 85, 96.)\n\n       22.     Defendants did not have any business discussions with plaintiff or CAM after\n\nCAM filed suit against Fannie Mae in December 2001. (See CAM Amended Complaint;\n\nHuebscher Decl. \u00b6\u00b6 4, 5; Lawch Decl. \u00b6\u00b6 3, 4.)\n\n\n\n\n                                                 4\n\f       Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB      Document 33-24           Filed 06/21/2007    Page 5 of 6\n\n\n\n         23.   Defendants did not promise plaintiff any business or even meet with her after this\n\ndate. (See Huebscher Decl. \u00b6\u00b6 3, 4; Lawch Decl. \u00b6\u00b6 2, 3.)\n\n         24.   Plaintiff described her co-brokerage agreement with CAM as \u201ca simple, common\n\nco-brokerage agreement with CAM Financial that entailed paying them a commission in the\n\nevent that they secured the insurance that I needed on any of the proposals that I was working\n\non.\u201d (See Williams Interrog. Resp. No. 7.)\n\n         25.   Plaintiff further explained that the co-brokerage agreement \u201cindicates that when\n\nCAM locates an insurance company for a project that RMS is working on, RMS agrees to\n\ncompensate CAM through some form of split commission.\u201d (Jones Dep. Exh. 2.)\n\n         26.   The District of Columbia Department of Consumer and Regulatory Affairs\n\nrevoked RMS\u2019s articles of incorporation after the company \u201cfailed and/or refused to file reports\n\nand pay all fees and dues owing prior to June 16, 2002 and 2003.\u201d (See District of Columbia\n\nCertificate of Revocation.)\n\n         27.   Plaintiff\u2019s brokerage license expired in April 2003. (See District of Columbia\n\nDept. of Insurance, Securities & Banking Licensee Look-up.)\n\n         28.   Mr. Jones indicated that he did not believe that the co-brokerage agreement\n\nformally terminated prior to his departure from the company in 2005. (See Jones Dep. at 35:18-\n\n19.)\n\n         29.   Bob Jones has no recollection of any conversations regarding RMS or plaintiff\n\nwith defendant Huebscher or defendant Lawch. (See Jones Dep. at 43, 46.)\n\n         30.   Bob Jones has no recollection of any instance where defendants discouraged\n\nCAM from business relationships with plaintiff, (see Jones Dep. at 43, 62), or made disparaging\n\nremarks about plaintiff. (See Jones Dep. at 44, 62-63.)\n\n\n\n\n                                                5\n\f    Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB         Document 33-24         Filed 06/21/2007      Page 6 of 6\n\n\n\n       31.    Plaintiff testified that in early 2001, she heard Mr. Lawch remark about an\n\n\u201cinternational broker\u201d and that \u201cshe knew that that was a discriminatory remark.\u201d. (See Williams\n\nInterrog. Resp. No. 1; May 7, 2007 Williams Dep. at 200; March 17, 2003 Dep. at 107-08.)\n\n       32.    Fannie Mae never hired an \u201cinternational broker\u201d for the multifamily division\u2019s\n\nsecuritization and other loan programs. (See Fannie Mae\u2019s Interrog. Resp. at No. 9.)\n\n\n\n\n                                               6\n\f","ocr_status":2,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:41:54-07:00","document_number":"33","attachment_number":23,"pacer_doc_id":"04501889112","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":2,"description":"Statement of Facts Statement of Undisputed Facts","acms_document_guid":""},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686764/","id":2686764,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/33/24/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.822151-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:10.266842-08:00","sha1":"f2ce12a3f48980bfefbdaaa30a862aaab1f3a07b","page_count":1,"file_size":14522,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.24.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.24.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":"    Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB         Document 33-25         Filed 06/21/2007      Page 1 of 1\n\n\n\n                       IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\n                           FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA\n\n____________________________________\n                                    :\nMARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS,         :\n                                    :\n      Plaintiff,                    :\n                                    :               Civil Action No. 1:05CV01483 (JDB)\n      vs.                           :\n                                    :\nFEDERAL NATIONAL MORTGAGE           :\n      ASSOCIATION, et al.           :\n                                    :\n      Defendants.                   :\n____________________________________:\n\n\n                                    [PROPOSED] ORDER\n\n       Upon consideration of Defendants Federal National Mortgage Association (\u201cFannie\n\nMae\u201d), Richard Lawch, and Grace Huebscher\u2019s (\u201cdefendants\u201d) Motion for Summary Judgment,\n\nand for the reasons stated in the memorandum opinion issued on this date, it is hereby\n\n       ORDERED that defendants\u2019 Motion for Summary Judgment is GRANTED IN ITS\n\nENTIRETY; it is further\n\n       ORDERED that plaintiff\u2019s amended complaint is DISMISSED WITH PREJUDICE.\n\n       SO ORDERED.\n\n\n\n\n                                                    __________________________________\n                                                    HONORABLE JUDGE JOHN D. BATES\n                                                    United States District Judge\n\f","ocr_status":2,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:42:39-07:00","document_number":"33","attachment_number":24,"pacer_doc_id":"04501888591","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":2,"description":"Text of Proposed Order","acms_document_guid":""},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686765/","id":2686765,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/33/25/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.828907-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:10.289989-08:00","sha1":"e05af89c50a33af140baa042f10d65977522cc47","page_count":1,"file_size":12049,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.25.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.33.25.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":"   Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 33-26        Filed 06/21/2007     Page 1 of 1\n\n\n\n                              CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE\n\n       I HEREBY CERTIFY that a true and correct copy of the foregoing was furnished via\nECF to Michael W. Beasley, Esq. and via Federal Express this 21st day of June 2007 upon:\n\nBrian Lederer, Esq.\n3003 Van Ness Street, N.W.\nSuite #W228\nWashington, D.C. 20008\n\nHarley Jay Daniels\n5511 Second Street, NW\nWashington, DC 20011\n\n\n\n                                                        /s/ Sarah A. Goldfrank\n                                                        Sarah A. Goldfrank\n                                                        Kyra A. Grundeman\n\f","ocr_status":2,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:47:49-07:00","document_number":"33","attachment_number":25,"pacer_doc_id":"04501888630","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":2,"description":"Certificate of Service","acms_document_guid":""}],"date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.635721-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:10.272595-08:00","date_filed":"2007-06-21","time_filed":null,"entry_number":33,"recap_sequence_number":"2007-06-21.026","pacer_sequence_number":null,"description":"MOTION for Summary Judgment by FANNIE MAE, RICHARD LAWCH, GRACE HUERSCHER (Attachments: # (1) Memorandum in Support of Motion for Summary Judgment# (2) Exhibit Exhibit A - Declaration of Grace Huebscher and Deposition Excerpts# (3) Exhibit Exhibit B - 3-28-2007 Williams Dep and Exhibit# (4) Exhibit Exhibit C - Fannie Mae&#039;s Interrogatory Responses# (5) Exhibit Exhibit D - Declaration of Richard Lawch# (6) Exhibit Exhibit E - 3-21-2003 Williams Deposition Excerpts# (7) Exhibit Exhibit F - 5-7-2007 Williams Deposition and Exhibit# (8) Exhibit Exhibit G - DC Certificate# (9) Exhibit Exhibit H - Jones Deposition and Exhibits# (10) Exhibit Exhibit I - CAM Amended Complaint# (11) Exhibit Exhibit J - CAM Dismissal Order# (12) Exhibit Exhibit K - Williams Interrogatory Responses# (13) Exhibit Exhibit L - 3-17-2003 Williams Deposition# (14) Exhibit Exhibit M - DC License Document# (15) Exhibit Exhibit N - Draft Complaint# (16) Exhibit Exhibit O - 5-5-2003 Williams Deposition Excerpts# (17) Exhibit Exhibit P - 5-6-2003 Williams Deposition Excerpts# (18) Exhibit Exhibit Q - Westover Declaration# (19) Exhibit Exhibit R - Production Document# (20) Exhibit Exhibit S - Ott Deposition Excerpts# (21) Exhibit Exhibit T - Production Document# (22) Affidavit Declaration of K Grundeman# (23) Statement of Facts Statement of Undisputed Facts# (24) Text of Proposed Order # (25) Certificate of Service)(Goldfrank, Sarah)","tags":[]},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/docket-entries/3579937/","id":3579937,"docket":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/dockets/4202584/","recap_documents":[{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686739/","id":2686739,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/32/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.630094-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:09.448955-08:00","sha1":"b89ea09ed7f12a8cbea0f9ad55ee982226faded0","page_count":2,"file_size":24917,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.32.0.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.32.0.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":"     Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 32        Filed 05/01/2007      Page 1 of 2\n\n\n\n                         UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\n                         FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA\n\n\n                                                     )\nMARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS,                          )\n                                                     )\n                Plaintiff,                           )\n                                                     )\nv.                                                   ) Civil Action No. 05-cv-1483\n                                                     )             (JDB)\nFANNIE MAE, et al.,                                  )\n                                                     )\n                Defendants.                          )\n                                                     )\n\n\n                                  PRAECIPE\n                  (PLAINTIFF\u2019S ATTORNEY CHANGE OF ADDRESS)\n\n         The Clerk of Court will please note the following change of address and point-of-\n\ncontact information for the Plaintiff\u2019s counsel in this proceeding, effective May 1, 2007:\n\n         Attorney for Plaintiff (no change): Michael W. Beasley, Esq.\n         New Address: 200 Park Avenue, Suite 106\n                        Falls Church, Virginia 22046\n         New Phone: (703) 533-5875\n         New Fax: (703) 533-5876\n         New E-Mail: beasleys2@verizon.net\n\n                                              Respectfully submitted,\n\n\n                                                  /s/ Michael W. Beasley\n                                              Michael W. Beasley, Esq.\n                                              D. C. Bar No. 248930\n                                              200 Park Avenue, Suite 106\n                                              Falls Church, Virginia 22046\n                                              Phone: (703) 533-5875\n                                              Fax: (703) 533-5876\n                                              E-Mail: beasleys2@verizon.net\n\n                                              Attorney for Plaintiff\n\f  Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 32        Filed 05/01/2007      Page 2 of 2\n\n\n\n                             CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE\n\n       I hereby certify that one copy of the foregoing Praecipe (Plaintiff\u2019s Attorney\n\nChange of Address) has been served through the Court\u2019s ECF filing system and also has\n\nbeen mailed, by first-class mail, postage prepaid, to the following named counsel for\n\nDefendants, this 1st day of May, 2007:\n\nSarah Alexander Goldfrank, Esq.\nEvelyn L. Becker, Esq.\nKryra Anne Grundeman, Esq.\nO\u2019Melveny & Myers, LLP\n1625 I Street, N. W.\nWashington, D. C. 20006\n\nJonathan Lee Griffith, Esq.\nFannie Mae\n3900 Wisconsin Avenue, N. W.\nWashington, D. C. 20016\n\n\n\n                                                /s/ Michael W. Beasley\n                                             Michael W. Beasley, Esq.\n                                             D. C. Bar No. 248930\n                                             Attorney for Plaintiff\n\n\n\n\n                                            2\n\f","ocr_status":2,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:45:02-07:00","document_number":"32","attachment_number":null,"pacer_doc_id":"0450838934","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":1,"description":"Notice of Change of Address","acms_document_guid":""}],"date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.623216-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:09.431227-08:00","date_filed":"2007-05-01","time_filed":null,"entry_number":32,"recap_sequence_number":"2007-05-01.001","pacer_sequence_number":null,"description":"NOTICE of Change of Address by Michael W. Beasley (Beasley, Michael)","tags":[]},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/docket-entries/3579936/","id":3579936,"docket":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/dockets/4202584/","recap_documents":[{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686738/","id":2686738,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/31/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.616142-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:09.420419-08:00","sha1":"fd6afcc950aa4949776dc5e6ac33f053ef0e2ab8","page_count":1,"file_size":146515,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.31.0.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.31.0.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":"     Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB         Document 31       Filed 04/03/2007      Page 1 of 1\n\n\n\n                      IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\n                          FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA\n\n\n\nMARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS,\n\n       Plaintiff,\n                                                   Civil Action No.1 :05CV01483\n       vs.\n                                                  Judge John D. Bates\nFEDERAL NATIONAL MORTGAGE\n     ASSOCIATION, et al.\n\n       Defendants.\n\n\n\n                                       APPEARANCE\n\n       Please enter the appearance ofthe undersigned counsel for defendant Federal National\n\nMortgage Association (\"Fannie Mae\").\n\n\n\nApril 3, 2007                                     Respectfully submitted,\n\n\n\n                                                       /s/ Jonathan Griffith\n                                                  Jonathan Griffith (D.C. Bar No. 456080)\n                                                  Fannie Mae\n                                                  3900 Wisconsin Ave., NW\n                                                  Washington, D.C. 20016\n                                                  (202) 752-6167 (phone)\n                                                  (202) 752-4948 (fax)\n\n                                                  Counsel for Defendant Federal National\n                                                  Mortgage Association\n\f","ocr_status":2,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:44:21-07:00","document_number":"31","attachment_number":null,"pacer_doc_id":"0450579520","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":1,"description":"Notice of Appearance","acms_document_guid":""}],"date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.608856-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:09.400879-08:00","date_filed":"2007-04-03","time_filed":null,"entry_number":31,"recap_sequence_number":"2007-04-03.001","pacer_sequence_number":null,"description":"NOTICE of Appearance by Jonathan Lee Griffith on behalf of FANNIE MAE (Griffith, Jonathan)","tags":[]},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/docket-entries/3579935/","id":3579935,"docket":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/dockets/4202584/","recap_documents":[{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686737/","id":2686737,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/30/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.601475-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:09.387713-08:00","sha1":"bc620021278f35706ee940cd0c9feeb47a744678","page_count":2,"file_size":93748,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.30.0.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.30.0.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":"      Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 30         Filed 03/26/2007      Page 1 of 2\n\n\n\n                       IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\n                           FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA\n\n____________________________________\n                                    )\nMARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS,         )\n                                    )\n      Plaintiff,                    )\n                                    )\n      v.                            )                Civil Action No. 1:05CV01483\n                                    )\nFEDERAL NATIONAL MORTGAGE )                                  Judge John D. Bates\n      ASSOCIATION, et al.,          )\n                                    )\n      Defendants.                   )\n____________________________________)\n\n\n                                 NOTICE OF APPEARANCE\n\n       On behalf of Marialice Bathrus Williams, by and through her undersigned counsel, please\n\nenter the appearance of attorney Harley Daniels, D. C. Bar Number 50112, as additional named\n\ncounsel for the Plaintiff in this proceeding. Mr. Daniels is a Member of the United States District\n\nCourt Bar in good standing.\n\n       Mr. Daniels\u2019 address is 3003 Van Ness Street, N. W., Suite W228, Washington, D. C.\n\n20008, and his telephone number is (202) 468-7737.\n\n                                                     Respectfully submitted,\n\n\n                                                     _______/S/ ___________\n                                                     Michael W. Beasley, Esq.\n                                                     D.C. Bar No. 248930\n                                                     411 East Broad Street\n                                                     Falls Church, Virginia 22046\n                                                     Phone: (703) 241-2909\n                                                     Fax: (703) 241-5885\n\f      Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB            Document 30         Filed 03/26/2007       Page 2 of 2\n\n\n\n                                                       ______/S/___________________\n                                                       Brian Lederer, Esq.\n                                                       D.C. Bar No. 184184\n                                                       3003 Van Ness St., NW, Suite #W228\n                                                       Washington, D.C. 20008\n                                                       Phone: (202) 244-1715\n                                                       Fax: (202) 244-7833\n\n                                                       Counsel for Plaintiff\n                                                       Marialice Bathrus Williams\n\n                                                       March 26, 2007\n\n\n\n\n                                  CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE\n\n       I hereby certify that a true and correct copy of this \u201cNotice of Appearance\u201d of attorney\n\nHarley Daniels, filed on behalf of Plaintiff, was provided by electronic mail filing and by first class\n\nmail, postage prepaid, this 26th day of March, 2007, to Evelyn L. Becker, Esquire, Kyra Anne\n\nGrundeman, Esquire, and Sarah Alexander Goldfrank, Esquire, O\u2019MELVENY & MYERS, LLP,\n\n1625 I Street, NW, Washington, D.C. 20006, Counsel for Defendants.\n\n\n\n                                                       _______/S/________________\n                                                       Michael W. Beasley, Esq.\n                                                       Counsel for Plaintiff\n\n\n\n\n                                                   2\n\f","ocr_status":2,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:44:32-07:00","document_number":"30","attachment_number":null,"pacer_doc_id":"04501734461","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":1,"description":"Notice of Appearance","acms_document_guid":""}],"date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.595117-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:09.365272-08:00","date_filed":"2007-03-26","time_filed":null,"entry_number":30,"recap_sequence_number":"2007-03-26.001","pacer_sequence_number":null,"description":"NOTICE of Appearance by Michael W. Beasley on behalf of MARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS (Beasley, Michael)","tags":[]},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/docket-entries/3579934/","id":3579934,"docket":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/dockets/4202584/","recap_documents":[{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686736/","id":2686736,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/29/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.589669-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:09.354614-08:00","sha1":"bc6d85edc9df5604214c81adc34f199b844154b9","page_count":6,"file_size":257657,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.29.0.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.29.0.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":" \n\nCasei:os-cv-omas-JDB' Documem 29\"1: `Filed12/19/2006 Page10f6\n\n \n\n-IN `THE UNITED-srATiEs i)lsTRICT coUR_T Fi LE D\nnon THE nlsimc_r oF`CoLoMBIA\nDEC 1 9 2005\n1 .' - mud times wmrrmstom,citsl<\n\u2018 MARiALIcE BATHRUS WILLIAMS, : . , civil Accion No. 1;05\u00a2v01433 u.s. msimctcoum\nPiaimifr; ' \u2019: '\n: \u00bb dudge John D. Bates\nvs. : '\n_ FEDERAL NATIONAL MORTGAGE \u00a7\n. AssociA_TIoN, RICHARD LAWCH, t y __\n_ANI) GRACE HUEB sCHER, '- sTIPULATION AND PROTECTIVE\n\n \n\nl ORDER\n' Defendants\u2018. ` -'\n\n \n\nl\nl\n\nPlaintifl` Marialice Bathrus Williams aind defendants Federal National Mortgage\n_Association_(\u201cFannie Mae\u201d), R_ichard Lawch :and _Gr_ace. Huebscher (collectiyely, \u201cParties\u201d) by\nand through their respective counsel, having s:tipulated_ and agreed that an order pursuant to\nF-ederal Rule of Civil Procedure 26(c) is necessary -to'pro:tect documents and other information in\n\n. the above-captioned action (\u201cAction\u201d), it is hereby ORDERED THAT:\nI. t SCOPE: OF-ORDER\n\nThis Stipulation and Protective Order j(\u201cProtectiVe Order\u201d or \u201cOrder\u201d) includes in its\nscope all documents, things and information (:including all documents and tangible things as\ndefined in Rule 34(a) of the Federal Rules of ijivil Procedure or any applicable local rule) that\nare produced, disclosed or_ filed in the Action by or on behalf of any Party or non~party,\nVoluntarily or involuntarily, Whether pursuant to formal or informal discovery requests,\nsubpoena, deposition, notice, motion practice or triali and Whether revealed in a document,\ndeposition, a response to any type of Written discoyery, a submission to the Court, testimony\n\nadduced at trial, introduced into evidence or oj;herwise disclosed (\u201cLitigation Material\u201d).\n\n\u00a7\nt\n|\n1\ni\nl\n\n \n\n \n\nCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 29 'Filed 12/19/2006 Page 2 of 6\n\nII. DESIGNATION OF COl\\lFlDENTIAL INFORMATION\n\nA. A Pa:rty shall have the right to designate confidential any Litigation Material that\n\ncontains or discloses such Party\u2019s confidential business information, trade secrets or sensitive\n\nproprietary commercial, financial or research information that has not been released into the\n\npublic domain (\u201cConfidential Information\u201d).\n\nB. All Litigation Material that a Party claims is Confidential lnformation and subject\n\nto the terms of the Protective Order must be designated as Conlidentia] lnformation by\n\nconspicuously stamping the Word \u201cCONFID]_EZN'I'I_AL\u201d on each page (except that in the case of\n\nmulti-page document in Which the pages are consecutively numbered, only the first page need be\n\nso stamped) or, in the case of other infonnatigi)n, by notifying the other Parties in writing\n\nConfidential lnformation disclosed at a deposition shall be designated as such on the record or by\n\na letter to all counsel of record Within 30 days of receiving the transcript Until the 30-day\n\nperiod elapses, the Parties shall treat such deposition material and testimony as Contidential\n\nInformation.\n\nnl. \u00a7ESTRICTIQNS oN Uss_s 0F_ ;CoNLIDE__N_TIAL_LNFQB_MATION\n\nConfidential Information shall be used solely for the purposes of preparation trial and\n\nappeal of this Action and for no other purpose, except that nothing herein shall limit any Party\u2019s\n\nuse of its own docnrnents, things or information Com\u2018idential lnformation shall not be disclosed\n\nor disseminated to anyone, except:\n\nA. The undersigned counsel for the Parties and the regular employees of outside\n\ncounsel to vvhom it is necessary that the information be disclosed for purposes of this Action, and\n\nin- house counsel and current employees of the Parties Who are in fact assisting in the prosecution\n\nor defense of this case and their secretaries, cli=:rks and legal assistants;\n\nB. The Court, the jury, court persc_ nnel, and court reporters, provided that prior to\n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n \n\nCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Docuni\\ent 29 Filed 12/19/2006 Page 3 of 6\n\nfiling any Co`nfidential lnformation, the Party attempting to file such mformation must comply\nwith the provisions set forth in Paragraph IV C) and (D) below;\n\nC. Any other person, entity or fn.n with the prior written consent of the Party who\ndesignated the material as ConEdential Inforniation; and,\n\nD. Any expert retained by a Party, or a deponent (solely for purposes of his/her\ndeposition), but only after complying with the provisions set forth in Paragraph IV(B) below.\n\nE. lf a Party that received Conf'rdential Information (\u201cReceiving Party\u201d) becomes\nobligated to disclose the information in response to a lawful subpoena_or other legal process, the\nReceiving Party shall give prompt written notice to the Party that produced the Coniidential\nInformation (\u201cProducing Party\u201d) within five calendar days from receipt of the written notice to\nallow the Producing Party the opportunity to lintervene and seel< judicial protection from the\nenforcement of the subpoena and/or entry of an appropriate protective order in the Action in\nwhich the subpoena was issued\n\nIV. GENERAL PROVISIONS\n\nA. If, prior to the date of this Pronective Orde_r, any Party shall have already produced\nor otherwise disclosed Litigation Material, the undersigned counsel for the Receiving Parties\nshall not disclose it to anyone outside of their law firms until ten days after the entry of this\nOrder. During those ten days, counsel for the Producing Party may in writing designate\nConfidential lnformation, in which event cour sel for the Receiving Party shall be responsible for\nreturning the documents, things and informati_ )n to the Producing Party so that the Confidential\nlnforrnation may be appropriately markedl ln the event a Produ_cin_g Party produced or other\ndisclosed docurnents, things and information marked \u201cCONF]DENTIAL\u201d prior to entry of this\norder, such Coniidential Inforrnation shall be protected by this Order.\n\nB. Each person to whom Confideri ti-al ]_nforrnation will be disseminated (other than\n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n' ' forth its objection in writing to the Producing_\u00e9\n\ncase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB oocurr\n\nand court reporters) will be required, prior to\n\n \n\nent 29 Filed 12/19/2006 Page 4 of 6\n\n' .the'-Parties,_t`he attorneys for the Parties and their employees, the Court, the jury, court personnel\ni\n\nany dissemination, to receive and read a copy of\n\nthis Order and to agree, in writing, to be bound by the terms of this Order, and to be personally\n\nsubject to the jurisdiction of this Court for the purpose of enforcement hereof. Counsel for any\n\nReceiving Party shall maintain a list of all sur\nperson to that effect, and shall provide copies\ncamera inspection if any Party files a motion\n\nC. Any hearing which refers to 01\n\nCourt\u2019s discretion, be held in camera Before\n\n\\\n\n'h persons along with the written agreement of each\n.of such written agreements to the Court for in\n\nto enforce this Order.\n\ndescribes Confidential Information may, in the\n\na Party may refer to or describe Contidential\n\nlnformation in a court hearing, that Party must request that the hearing be held in camera\n\nNothing contained herein shall be deemed to constitute a waiver of any Party\u2019s right to contest\n\nthe sealing of any documents, things and infoi'mation pursuant to Rule 26 of the Federal Rules of\n\nCivil Procedure.\n\nD. The Parties agree to tile with the Court any Conftdential lnformation only \u201cUnder\n\nSea \u201d, to the extent allowed by the Court.\nE, If an objection to designation a\n\nConfidential lnformation is made, counsel for'\n\nParty shall meet and confer as soon as practng\ndifferences Failing resolution, the Obj ectingl\n\nand conference, file a motion to remove the Cl\n\nf documents, things and information as\n\nthe objecting Party (\u201cObjecting Party\u201d) shall set\nParty, and such Objecting Party and Producing\ntble in a good faith effort to resolve their\n\nParty may, as soon as practicable after the meeting\n\nantidential lnformation designation Pending\n\n` resolution of the motion, the Confidential Info\u2018rmation shall be treated as such, except as required\n\nby the Court and agreed upon in writing by th\u00a7 . Parties. This paragraph in no Way changes the\n\n5 4\n\n \n\n \n\ncase 1:05-cv-01483-JD'B occurs\n\nburden of proof bn the names under exisng\ndocuments\n\nF.\n\n'a person not designated to receive such inforr\n\ndisclosed such information innnediately shall\n\nlf any Confidential lnformatio\n\n \n\nl\n\nent 29 Filed 12/19/2006 Page 5 of 6\n\n_' case law with respect to confidentiality of\nn is disclosed, through inadvertence or otherwise, to\nnation under this Order, then the Party that\n\nuse its best efforts to bind such person to the terms\n\nof this Order and identify such person to the Producing Party.\n\nG. The production of documents,\n\nthings and information subject to the attorney-\n\nclient privilege, work product doctrine or other privilege shall not constitute a waiver of that\n\nprivilege for the documents, things and inforr\nproduction from the Producing Party, the Rec.\n\nand information7 and all copies thereof, to the\n\nH.\n\nany discovery on any grounds that would oth\n\n_ Party\u2019s right to seek judicial order or to seek\n\nThis Order shall not be constra\n\nnation or their subject matter. Upon notice of such\neiving Parties shall return the documents, things\nProducing Party.\n\ned to preclude or limit any Party nom opposing\ntrwise be available This Order shall not limit any\n\nfurther and additional protection against or\n\nlimitation upon production or dissemination ony documents, things and information or their\n\ncontents.\nV.\n\nWithin thirty days of the close of this\n\nall copies of other Parties\u2019 Confidential lume\n\nUSE AND RETURN OF'CQ\n\n|NFII)ENTIAL INFORMATI ON\n\u00a7\n\nlction, each Party shall use best efforts to retrieve\n\n1ation from their own files, and from experts or\n\nother persons to whom they have been provided consistent with this Order, and to return to the\n\nProducing Parties all copies of Con_fidential Iri\n\nthis Action. l_n lieu of returning the same, Re\n\nthings and inforrnation, and all copies thereof,i\n\nthat has been placed in any computer system\n\nformation produced or otherwise disclosed during\nseiving Parties may certify that all documents,\nhave been destroyed Confidential lnforniation\n\nn all be completely erased, and any documents,\n\n \n\n \n\ni;` 5\n\nit\n\n \n\nCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB _ Docum:\n\nl\nthings and information listing or summarizini\nsame period. Each Party then shall provide ti\n\nshe or it has complied with this paragraph\n\nth\nsioNEo this /? day of miami\n\nent 29\n\n \n\n \n\nFiled 12/19/2006 Page 6 Of 6\n\nr such information shall be destroyed within the\n\nre opposing Party with a letter certifying that he,\n\n\u00a7\u00a7 2006.\n\nfunds ronN o. BArEs\nUNIrED srArEs DrsTRrCT CoURr\n\n \n\n","ocr_status":1,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:40:57-07:00","document_number":"29","attachment_number":null,"pacer_doc_id":"0450627210","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":1,"description":"Stipulation and Order","acms_document_guid":""}],"date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.584249-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:09.335143-08:00","date_filed":"2006-12-19","time_filed":null,"entry_number":29,"recap_sequence_number":"2006-12-19.004","pacer_sequence_number":null,"description":"STIPULATION AND PROTECTIVE ORDER. Signed by Judge John D. Bates on 12/19/06. (tb, )","tags":[]},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/docket-entries/3579933/","id":3579933,"docket":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/dockets/4202584/","recap_documents":[{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686733/","id":2686733,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/28/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.562149-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:09.215790-08:00","sha1":"f23a650a0cfc0bae7f28a9044995c31eb702ecee","page_count":3,"file_size":11346,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.28.0.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.28.0.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":"      Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 28        Filed 12/19/2006        Page 1 of 3\n\n\n\n                       IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\n                           FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA\n\n____________________________________\n                                    :\nMARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS,         :\n                                    :\n      Plaintiff,                    :\n                                    :                 Civil Action No. 1:05CV01483\n      vs.                           :\n                                    :                 Judge John D. Bates\nFEDERAL NATIONAL MORTGAGE           :\n      ASSOCIATION, et al.           :\n                                    :\n      Defendants.                   :\n____________________________________:\n\n\n RENEWED JOINT MOTION FOR ENTRY OF STIPULATED PROTECTIVE ORDER\n\n\n       Defendants Federal National Mortgage Association, Richard Lawch and Grace\n\nHuebscher (\u201cDefe ndants\u201d), and plaintiff Marialice Bathrus Williams (\u201cPlaintiff\u201d), by and\n\nthrough their undersigned counsel, respectfully submit for this Court\u2019s review and approval a\n\nrevised Stipulated Protective Order in the above-referenced case. This Protective Order was\n\nnegotiated by the parties in order to serve their interests in conducting discovery in this case, and\n\nwas revised to reflect a small modification requested by this Court.\n\n\n       WHEREFORE, Defendants and plaintiff respectfully request this Court to approve and\n\nenter the Stipulated Protective Order submitted herewith as Exhibit A.\n\f     Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB   Document 28      Filed 12/19/2006       Page 2 of 3\n\n\n\nDecember 19, 2006                           Respectfully Submitted,\n\n\n\n                                            /s/ Sarah A. Goldfrank\n                                            Evelyn L. Becker (D.C. Bar No. 451163)\n                                            Sarah A. Goldfrank (D.C. Bar No. 482382)\n                                            Kyra A. Grundeman (D.C. Bar No. 493622)\n                                            O\u2019Melveny & Myers LLP\n                                            1625 Eye Street, N.W.\n                                            Washington, D.C. 20006\n                                            (202) 383-5300 (phone)\n                                            (202) 383-5414 (fax)\n\n                                            Counsel for Defendants Federal National\n                                            Mortgage Association, Richard Lawch and\n                                            Grace Huebscher\n\n\n                                            /s/ Michael W. Beasley (with permission)\n                                            Michael W. Beasley, Esq.\n                                            D.C. Bar No. 248930\n                                            411 East Broad Street\n                                            Falls Church, Virginia 22046\n                                            (703) 241-2909 (phone)\n                                            (703) 241-5885 (fax)\n\n                                            /s/ Brian Lederer (with permission)\n                                            Brian Lederer, Esq.\n                                            D.C. Bar No. 184184\n                                            3003 Van Ness St., NW, Ste. #W228\n                                            Washington, D.C. 20008\n                                            (202) 244-1715 (phone)\n\n                                            Counsel for Plaintiff Marialice Bathrus\n                                            Williams\n\f     Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 28       Filed 12/19/2006     Page 3 of 3\n\n\n\n                              CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE\n\n        I HEREBY CERTIFY that a true and correct copy of the foregoing was furnished by U.S.\nmail this 19th day of December, 2006 upon:\n\nMichael W. Beasley, Esq.                                Brian Lederer, Esq.\n411 East Broad Street                                   3003 Van Ness Street, N.W.\nFalls Church, VA 22046                                  Suite #W228\n                                                        Washington, D.C. 20008\n\n\n\n                                                        _/s/ Sarah A. Goldfrank_______\n                                                        Sarah A. Goldfrank\n\f","ocr_status":2,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:47:12-07:00","document_number":"28","attachment_number":null,"pacer_doc_id":"04501617474","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":1,"description":"Motion for Protective Order","acms_document_guid":""},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686734/","id":2686734,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/28/1/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.570365-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:09.259855-08:00","sha1":"bb800d8d8e6c0efd2361297c6b87fb21d29bcbed","page_count":6,"file_size":22176,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.28.1.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.28.1.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":"    Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 28-2         Filed 12/19/2006       Page 1 of 6\n\n\n\n                       IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\n                           FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA\n\n____________________________________\n                                    :\nMARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS,         :                Civil Action No. 1:05cv01483\n                                    :\n      Plaintiff,                    :\n                                    :                Judge John D. Bates\n      vs.                           :\n                                    :\nFEDERAL NATIONAL MORTGAGE           :\nASSOCIATION, RICHARD LAWCH,         :\nAND GRACE HUEBSCHER,                :                STIPULATION AND PROTECTIVE\n                                    :                ORDER\n      Defendants.                   :\n____________________________________:\n\n       Plaintiff Marialice Bathrus Williams and defendants Federal National Mortgage\n\nAssociation (\u201cFannie Mae\u201d), Richard Lawch and Grace Huebscher (collectively, \u201cParties\u201d) by\n\nand through their respective counsel, having stipulated and agreed that an order pursuant to\n\nFederal Rule of Civil Procedure 26(c) is necessary to protect documents and other information in\n\nthe above-captioned action (\u201cAction\u201d), it is hereby ORDERED THAT:\n\n                              I.      SCOPE OF ORDER\n\n       This Stipulation and Protective Order (\u201cProtective Order\u201d or \u201cOrder\u201d) includes in its\n\nscope all documents, things and information (including all documents and tangible things as\n\ndefined in Rule 34(a) of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure or any applicable local rule) that\n\nare produced, disclosed or filed in the Action by or on behalf of any Party or non-party,\n\nvoluntarily or involuntarily, whether pursuant to formal or informal discovery requests,\n\nsubpoena, deposition, notice, motion practice or trial, and whether revealed in a document,\n\ndeposition, a response to any type of written discovery, a submission to the Court, testimony\n\nadduced at trial, introduced into evidence or otherwise disclosed (\u201cLitigation Material\u201d).\n\f     Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB            Document 28-2         Filed 12/19/2006       Page 2 of 6\n\n\n\n            II.      DESIGNATION OF CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION\n\n       A.         A Party shall have the right to designate confidential any Litigation Material that\n\ncontains or discloses such Party\u2019s confidential business information, trade secrets or sensitive\n\nproprietary commercial, financial or research information that has not been released into the\n\npublic domain (\u201cConfidential Information\u201d).\n\n       B.         All Litigation Material that a Party claims is Confidential Information and subject\n\nto the terms of the Protective Order must be designated as Confidential Information by\n\nconspicuously stamping the word \u201cCONFIDENTIAL\u201d on each page (except that in the case of\n\nmulti-page document in which the pages are consecutively numbered, only the first page need be\n\nso stamped) or, in the case of other information, by notifying the other Parties in writing.\n\nConfidential Information disclosed at a deposition shall be designated as such on the record or by\n\na letter to all counsel of record within 30 days of receiving the transcript. Until the 30-day\n\nperiod elapses, the Parties shall treat such deposition material and testimony as Confidential\n\nInformation.\n\n     III.      RESTRICTIONS ON USE OF CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION\n\n       Confidential Information shall be used solely for the purposes of preparation, trial and\n\nappeal of this Action and for no other purpose, except that nothing herein shall limit any Party\u2019s\n\nuse of its own documents, things or information. Confidential Information shall not be disclosed\n\nor disseminated to anyone, except:\n\n       A.         The undersigned counsel for the Parties and the regular employees of outside\n\ncounsel to whom it is necessary that the information be disclosed for purposes of this Action, and\n\nin- house counsel and current employees of the Parties who are in fact assisting in the prosecution\n\nor defense of this case and their secretaries, clerks and legal assistants;\n\n       B.         The Court, the jury, court personnel, and court reporters, provided that prior to\n\n\n                                                    2\n\f     Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 28-2          Filed 12/19/2006       Page 3 of 6\n\n\n\nfiling any Confidential Information, the Party attempting to file such information must comply\n\nwith the provisions set forth in Paragraph IV(C) and (D) below;\n\n       C.      Any other person, entity or firm with the prior written consent of the Party who\n\ndesignated the material as Confidential Information; and,\n\n       D.      Any expert retained by a Party, or a deponent (solely for purposes of his/her\n\ndeposition), but only after complying with the provisions set forth in Paragraph IV(B) below.\n\n       E.      If a Party that received Confidential Information (\u201cReceiving Party\u201d) becomes\n\nobligated to disclose the information in response to a lawful subpoena or other legal process, the\n\nReceiving Party shall give prompt written notice to the Party that produced the Confidential\n\nInformation (\u201cProducing Party\u201d) within five calendar days from receipt of the written notice to\n\nallow the Producing Party the opportunity to intervene and seek judicial protection from the\n\nenforcement of the subpoena and/or entry of an appropriate protective order in the Action in\n\nwhich the subpoena was issued.\n\n                            IV.     GENERAL PROVISIONS\n\n       A.      If, prio r to the date of this Protective Order, any Party shall have already produced\n\nor otherwise disclosed Litigation Material, the undersigned counsel for the Receiving Parties\n\nshall not disclose it to anyone outside of their law firms until ten days after the entry of this\n\nOrder. During those ten days, counsel for the Producing Party may in writing designate\n\nConfidential Information, in which event counsel for the Receiving Party shall be responsible for\n\nreturning the documents, things and information to the Producing Party so that the Confidential\n\nInformation may be appropriately marked. In the event a Producing Party produced or other\n\ndisclosed documents, things and information marked \u201cCONFIDENTIAL\u201d prior to entry of this\n\norder, such Confidential Information shall be protected by this Order.\n\n       B.      Each person to whom Confidential Information will be disseminated (other than\n\n\n                                                   3\n\f    Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 28-2         Filed 12/19/2006       Page 4 of 6\n\n\n\nthe Parties, the attorneys for the Parties and their employees, the Court, the jury, court personnel\n\nand court reporters) will be required, prior to any dissemination, to receive and read a copy of\n\nthis Order and to agree, in writing, to be bound by the terms of this Order, and to be personally\n\nsubject to the jurisdiction of this Court for the purpose of enforcement hereof. Counsel for any\n\nReceiving Party shall maintain a list of all such persons along with the written agreement of each\n\nperson to that effect, and shall provide copies of such written agreements to the Court for in\n\ncamera inspection if any Party files a motion to enforce this Order.\n\n       C.      Any hearing which refers to or describes Confidential Information may, in the\n\nCourt\u2019s discretion, be held in camera. Before a Party may refer to or describe Confidential\n\nInformation in a court hearing, that Party must request that the hearing be held in camera.\n\nNothing contained herein shall be deemed to constitute a waiver of any Party\u2019s right to contest\n\nthe sealing of any documents, things and information pursuant to Rule 26 of the Federal Rules of\n\nCivil Procedure.\n\n       D.      The Parties agree to file with the Court any Confidential Information only \u201cUnder\n\nSeal\u201d, to the extent allowed by the Court.\n\n       E.      If an objection to designation of documents, things and information as\n\nConfidential Information is made, counsel for the objecting Party (\u201cObjecting Party\u201d) shall set\n\nforth its objection in writing to the Producing Party, and such Objecting Party and Producing\n\nParty shall meet and confer as soon as practicable in a good faith effort to resolve their\n\ndifferences. Failing resolution, the Objecting Party may, as soon as practicable after the meeting\n\nand conference, file a motion to remove the Confidential Information designation. Pending\n\nresolution of the motion, the Confidential Information shall be treated as such, except as required\n\nby the Court and agreed upon in writing by the Parties. This paragraph in no way changes the\n\n\n\n\n                                                  4\n\f    Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB            Document 28-2         Filed 12/19/2006       Page 5 of 6\n\n\n\nburden of proof on the Parties under existing case law with respect to confidentiality of\n\ndocuments.\n\n       F.      If any Confidential Information is disclosed, through inadvertence or otherwise, to\n\na person not designated to receive such information under this Order, then the Party that\n\ndisclosed such information immediately shall use its best efforts to bind such person to the terms\n\nof this Order and identify such person to the Producing Party.\n\n       G.      The production of documents, things and information subject to the attorney-\n\nclient privilege, work product doctrine or other privilege shall not constitute a waiver of that\n\nprivilege for the documents, things and information or their subject matter. Upon notice of such\n\nproduction from the Producing Party, the Receiving Parties shall return the documents, things\n\nand information, and all copies thereof, to the Producing Party.\n\n       H.      This Order shall not be construed to preclude or limit any Party from opposing\n\nany discovery on any grounds that would otherwise be available. This Order shall not limit any\n\nParty\u2019s right to seek judicial order or to seek further and additional protection against or\n\nlimitation upon production or dissemination of documents, things and information or their\n\ncontents.\n\n        V.      USE AND RETURN OF CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION\n\n       Within thirty days of the close of this Action, each Party shall use best efforts to retrieve\n\nall copies of other Parties\u2019 Confidential Information from their own files, and from experts or\n\nother persons to whom they have been provided consistent with this Order, and to return to the\n\nProducing Parties all copies of Confidential Information produced or otherwise disclosed during\n\nthis Action. In lieu of returning the same, Receiving Parties may certify that all documents,\n\nthings and information, and all copies thereof, have been destroyed. Confidential Information\n\nthat has been placed in any computer system shall be completely erased, and any documents,\n\n\n                                                  5\n\f    Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 28-2         Filed 12/19/2006      Page 6 of 6\n\n\n\nthings and information listing or summarizing such information shall be destroyed within the\n\nsame period. Each Party then shall provide the opposing Party with a letter certifying that he,\n\nshe or it has complied with this paragraph.\n\n\n\n       SIGNED this ____ day of _____________, 2006.\n\n                                                     ________________________________\n                                                       JUDGE JOHN D. BATES\n                                                       UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\n\n\n\n\n                                                6\n\f","ocr_status":2,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:47:18-07:00","document_number":"28","attachment_number":1,"pacer_doc_id":"04501642513","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":2,"description":"Exhibit Protective Order","acms_document_guid":""},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686735/","id":2686735,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/28/2/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.578588-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:09.308003-08:00","sha1":"03131887eec1eeb9d772675a9cfcdf3118ae21bf","page_count":1,"file_size":8555,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.28.2.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.28.2.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":"    Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 28-3       Filed 12/19/2006      Page 1 of 1\n\n\n\n                       IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\n                           FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA\n\n____________________________________\n                                    :\nMARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS,         :\n                                    :\n      Plaintiff,                    :\n                                    :               Civil Action No. 1:05CV01483\n      vs.                           :\n                                    :               Judge John D. Bates\nFEDERAL NATIONAL MORTGAGE           :\n      ASSOCIATION, et al.           :\n                                    :\n      Defendants.                   :\n____________________________________:\n\n\n                                     [PROPOSED] ORDER\n\n       Upon consideration of the parties\u2019 Renewed Joint Motion for Entry of Stipulated\n\nProtective Order, it is hereby ordered that:\n\n       1.      The Motion is GRANTED; and\n\n       2.      It is hereby ORDERED that the Clerk of the Court shall accept and file the\n\nStipulated Protective Order affixed as Exhibit \u201cA\u201d to the Renewed Joint Motion for Entry of\n\nStipulated Protective Order.\n\n\n\n\n                                                    __________________________________\n                                                    HONORABLE JUDGE JOHN D. BATES\n                                                    United States District Court Judge\n\f","ocr_status":2,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:42:55-07:00","document_number":"28","attachment_number":2,"pacer_doc_id":"04501631382","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":2,"description":"Text of Proposed Order Proposed Order","acms_document_guid":""}],"date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.554944-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:09.294661-08:00","date_filed":"2006-12-19","time_filed":null,"entry_number":28,"recap_sequence_number":"2006-12-19.003","pacer_sequence_number":null,"description":"Joint MOTION for Protective Order by FANNIE MAE, RICHARD LAWCH, GRACE HUERSCHER. (Attachments: # (1) Exhibit Protective Order# (2) Text of Proposed Order Proposed Order)(Goldfrank, Sarah)","tags":[]},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/docket-entries/3579932/","id":3579932,"docket":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/dockets/4202584/","recap_documents":[{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686731/","id":2686731,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/27/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.539893-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:09.107983-08:00","sha1":"92e87414c8b30c4f30fd66b8f5404c1110be5ae2","page_count":4,"file_size":17913,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.27.0.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.27.0.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":"     Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 27        Filed 12/14/2006       Page 1 of 4\n\n\n\n                       IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\n                           FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA\n\n____________________________________\n                                    :\nMARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS,         :\n                                    :\n      Plaintiff,                    :\n                                    :                Civil Action No. 1:05CV01483\n      vs.                           :\n                                    :                Judge John D. Bates\nFEDERAL NATIONAL MORTGAGE           :\n      ASSOCIATION, et al.           :\n                                    :\n      Defendants.                   :\n____________________________________:\n\n\n               JOINT MOTION TO AMEND THE SCHEDULING ORDER\n\n       Defendants Federal National Mortgage Association, Richard Lawch and Grace\n\nHuebscher (\u201cDefendants\u201d), and plaintiff Marialice Bathrus Williams (\u201cPlaintiff\u201d), by and\n\nthrough their undersigned counsel, file this Joint Motion to Amend the Scheduling Order and\n\nrespectfully submit to this Court the following:\n\n       1.      Defendants served Plaintiff with discovery requests on September 7, 2006. Due\n\nto health issues, Plaintiff has sought and received extensions of time to respond to discovery\n\nrequests. Such extensions have delayed progress in this case.\n\n       2.      The parties have conferred, and agreed to an amendment to the Scheduling Order,\n\nas follows:\n\n               a.     All discovery shall be completed by not later than May 7, 2007.\n\n               b.     Dispositive motions shall be filed by not later than June 21, 2007.\n\n               Oppositions shall be filed by not later than July 23, 2007. Replies shall be filed\n\n               by not later than August 13, 2007.\n\f         Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB         Document 27        Filed 12/14/2006       Page 2 of 4\n\n\n\n                 c.     A status hearing previously was scheduled for March 6, 2007 at 9:00 a.m.\n\n                 in Courtroom 8. The parties request that the status hearing be reset to a date\n\n                 following the close of discovery on a date convenient to this Court.\n\n          3.     This Joint Motion is filed in good faith and is not filed merely for the purposes of\n\ndelay.\n\n          WHEREFORE, Defendants and Plaintiff respectfully request this Court to grant this Joint\n\nMotion to Extend the Scheduling Order.\n\n\n\nDecember 14, 2006                                      Respectfully Submitted,\n\n\n\n\n                                                       /s/ Kyra A. Grundeman\n                                                       Evelyn L. Becker (D.C. Bar No. 451163)\n                                                       Sarah A. Goldfrank (D.C. Bar No. 482382)\n                                                       Kyra A. Grundeman (D.C. Bar No. 493622)\n                                                       O\u2019Melveny & Myers LLP\n                                                       1625 Eye Street, N.W.\n                                                       Washington, D.C. 20006\n                                                       (202) 383-5300 (phone)\n                                                       (202) 383-5414 (fax)\n\n                                                       Counsel for Defendants Federal National\n                                                       Mortgage Association, Richard Lawch and\n                                                       Grace Huebscher\n\n\n                                                       /s/ Michael W. Beasley (with permission)\n                                                       Michael W. Beasley, Esq.\n                                                       D.C. Bar No. 248930\n                                                       411 East Broad Street\n                                                       Falls Church, Virginia 22046\n                                                       (703) 241-2909 (pho ne)\n                                                       (703) 241-5885 (fax)\n\n                                                       /s/ Brian Lederer (with permission)\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB   Document 27      Filed 12/14/2006      Page 3 of 4\n\n\n\n                                       Brian Lederer, Esq.\n                                       D.C. Bar No. 184184\n                                       3003 Van Ness St., NW, Ste. #W228\n                                       Washington, D.C. 20008\n                                       (202) 244-1715 (phone)\n\n                                       Counsel for Plaintiff Marialice Bathrus\n                                       Williams\n\f     Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 27       Filed 12/14/2006     Page 4 of 4\n\n\n\n                              CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE\n\n        I HEREBY CERTIFY that a true and correct copy of the foregoing was furnished by U.S.\nmail this 14th day of December, 2006 upon:\n\nMichael W. Beasley, Esq.                                Brian Lederer, Esq.\n411 East Broad Street                                   3003 Van Ness Street, N.W.\nFalls Church, VA 22046                                  Suite #W228\n                                                        Washington, D.C. 20008\n\n\n\n                                                        _/s/ Kyra A. Grundeman_________\n                                                        Kyra A. Grundeman\n\f","ocr_status":2,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:39:27-07:00","document_number":"27","attachment_number":null,"pacer_doc_id":"04501583973","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":1,"description":"Motion to Amend/Correct","acms_document_guid":""},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686732/","id":2686732,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/27/1/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.547562-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:09.161027-08:00","sha1":"916d4156ac541f0fec8549542aed411c8edcf3e9","page_count":1,"file_size":10090,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.27.1.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.27.1.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":"    Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 27-2         Filed 12/14/2006       Page 1 of 1\n\n\n\n                       IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\n                           FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA\n\n____________________________________\n                                    :\nMARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS,         :\n                                    :\n      Plaintiff,                    :\n                                    :                 Civil Action No. 1:05CV01483\n      vs.                           :\n                                    :                 Judge John D. Bates\nFEDERAL NATIONAL MORTGAGE           :\n      ASSOCIATION, et al.           :\n                                    :\n      Defendants.                   :\n____________________________________:\n\n\n                                     [PROPOSED] ORDER\n\n       Upon consideration of the parties\u2019 Joint Motion to Amend the Scheduling Order, it is\n\nhereby ordered that:\n\n       1.      The Motion is GRANTED; and\n\n       2.      All discovery shall be completed by not later than May 7, 2007; and\n\n       3.      Dispositive motions shall be filed by not later than June 21, 2007. Oppositions\n\nshall be filed by not later than July 23, 2007. Replies shall be filed by not later than August 13,\n\n2007; and\n\n       4.      A status hearing is scheduled for [DATE] at [TIME] in Courtroom 8.\n\n\n\n\n                                                      __________________________________\n                                                      HONORABLE JUDGE JOHN D. BATES\n                                                      United States District Court Judge\n\f","ocr_status":2,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:43:37-07:00","document_number":"27","attachment_number":1,"pacer_doc_id":"04501583823","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":2,"description":"Text of Proposed Order","acms_document_guid":""}],"date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.534427-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:09.118566-08:00","date_filed":"2006-12-14","time_filed":null,"entry_number":27,"recap_sequence_number":"2006-12-14.005","pacer_sequence_number":null,"description":"Joint MOTION to Amend/Correct [25] Order - Modify Scheduling Order by FANNIE MAE, RICHARD LAWCH, GRACE HUERSCHER. (Attachments: # (1) Text of Proposed Order)(Grundeman, Kyra)","tags":[]},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/docket-entries/3579931/","id":3579931,"docket":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/dockets/4202584/","recap_documents":[{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686728/","id":2686728,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/26/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.513094-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:09.021699-08:00","sha1":"f6ccae2289b8c9cb2a3f194ba85101ab0c35a952","page_count":3,"file_size":14744,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.26.0.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.26.0.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":"      Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 26         Filed 12/14/2006        Page 1 of 3\n\n\n\n                        IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\n                            FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA\n\n____________________________________\n                                    :\nMARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS,         :\n                                    :\n      Plaintiff,                    :\n                                    :                  Civil Action No. 1:05CV01483\n      vs.                           :\n                                    :                  Judge John D. Bates\nFEDERAL NATIONAL MORTGAGE           :\n      ASSOCIATION, et al.           :\n                                    :\n      Defendants.                   :\n____________________________________:\n\n\n        JOINT MOTION FOR ENTRY OF STIPULATED PROTECTIVE ORDER\n\n\n       Defendants Federal National Mortgage Association, Richard Lawch and Grace\n\nHuebscher (\u201cDefendants\u201d), and plaintiff Marialice Bathrus Williams (\u201cPlaintiff\u201d), by and\n\nthrough their undersigned counsel, respectfully submit for this Court\u2019s review and approval a\n\nStipulated Protective Order in the above-referenced case. This Protective Order was negotiated\n\nby the parties in order to serve their interests in conducting discovery in this case.\n\n\n\n       WHEREFORE, Defendants and Plaintiff respectfully request this Court to approve and\n\nenter the Stipulated Protective Order submitted herewith as Exhibit A.\n\n\nDecember 14, 2006                                      Respectfully Submitted,\n\n\n\n\n                                                       /s/ Kyra A. Grundeman\n                                                       Evelyn L. Becker (D.C. Bar No. 451163)\n                                                       Sarah A. Goldfrank (D.C. Bar No. 482382)\n\fCase 1:05-cv-01483-JDB   Document 26       Filed 12/14/2006     Page 2 of 3\n\n\n\n                                       Kyra A. Grundeman (D.C. Bar No. 493622)\n                                       O\u2019Melveny & Myers LLP\n                                       1625 Eye Street, N.W.\n                                       Washington, D.C. 20006\n                                       (202) 383-5300 (phone)\n                                       (202) 383-5414 (fax)\n\n                                       Counsel for Defendants Federal National\n                                       Mortgage Association, Richard Lawch and\n                                       Grace Huebscher\n\n\n                                       /s/ Michael W. Beasley (with permission)\n                                       Michael W. Beasley, Esq.\n                                       D.C. Bar No. 248930\n                                       411 East Broad Street\n                                       Falls Church, Virginia 22046\n                                       (703) 241-2909 (phone)\n                                       (703) 241-5885 (fax)\n\n                                       /s/ Brian Lederer (with permission)\n                                       Brian Lederer, Esq.\n                                       D.C. Bar No. 184184\n                                       3003 Van Ness St., NW, Ste. #W228\n                                       Washington, D.C. 20008\n                                       (202) 244-1715 (phone)\n\n                                       Counsel for Plaintiff Marialice Bathrus\n                                       Williams\n\f     Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 26       Filed 12/14/2006     Page 3 of 3\n\n\n\n                              CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE\n\n        I HEREBY CERTIFY that a true and correct copy of the foregoing was furnished by U.S.\nmail this 14th day of December, 2006 upon:\n\nMichael W. Beasley, Esq.                                Brian Lederer, Esq.\n411 East Broad Street                                   3003 Van Ness Street, N.W.\nFalls Church, VA 22046                                  Suite #W228\n                                                        Washington, D.C. 20008\n\n\n\n                                                        _/s/ Kyra A. Grundeman_______\n                                                        Kyra A. Grundeman\n\f","ocr_status":2,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:47:25-07:00","document_number":"26","attachment_number":null,"pacer_doc_id":"0450541786","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":1,"description":"Motion for Protective Order","acms_document_guid":""},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686729/","id":2686729,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/26/1/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.521385-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:09.034390-08:00","sha1":"6a18b6949d12260e48aa57c5dfceb1391f8802e8","page_count":6,"file_size":22416,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.26.1.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.26.1.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":"    Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 26-2         Filed 12/14/2006       Page 1 of 6\n\n\n\n                       IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\n                           FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA\n\n____________________________________\n                                    :\nMARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS,         :                Civil Action No. 1:05cv01483\n                                    :\n      Plaintiff,                    :\n                                    :                Judge John D. Bates\n      vs.                           :\n                                    :\nFEDERAL NATIONAL MORTGAGE           :\nASSOCIATION, RICHARD LAWCH,         :\nAND GRACE HUEBSCHER,                :                STIPULATION AND PROTECTIVE\n                                    :                ORDER\n      Defendants.                   :\n____________________________________:\n\n       Plaintiff Marialice Bathrus Williams and defendants Federal National Mortgage\n\nAssociation (\u201cFannie Mae\u201d), Richard Lawch and Grace Huebscher (collectively, \u201cParties\u201d) by\n\nand through their respective counsel, having stipulated and agreed that an order pursuant to\n\nFederal Rule of Civil Procedure 26(c) is necessary to protect documents and other information in\n\nthe above-captioned action (\u201cAction\u201d), it is hereby ORDERED THAT:\n\n                              I.      SCOPE OF ORDER\n\n       This Stipulation and Protective Order (\u201cProtective Order\u201d or \u201cOrder\u201d) includes in its\n\nscope all documents, things and information (including all documents and tangible things as\n\ndefined in Rule 34(a) of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure or any applicable local rule) that\n\nare produced, disclosed or filed in the Action by or on behalf of any Party or non-party,\n\nvoluntarily or involuntarily, whether pursuant to formal or informal discovery requests,\n\nsubpoena, deposition, notice, motion practice or trial, and whether revealed in a document,\n\ndeposition, a response to any type of written discovery, a submission to the Court, testimony\n\nadduced at trial, introduced into evidence or otherwise disclosed (\u201cLitigation Material\u201d).\n\f     Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB             Document 26-2         Filed 12/14/2006       Page 2 of 6\n\n\n\n               II.      USE OF LITIGATION MATERIAL GENERALLY\n\n       All non-public Litigation Material shall be used solely for the purposes of preparation,\n\ntrial and appeal of this Action and for no other purpose, absent further order of the Court.\n\nNothing herein shall limit any Party\u2019s use of its own documents, things or information.\n\n            III.      DESIGNATION OF CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION\n\n       A.          A Party shall have the right to designate confidential any Litigation Material that\n\ncontains or discloses such Party\u2019s confidential business information, trade secrets or sensitive\n\nproprietary commercial, financial or research information that has not been released into the\n\npublic domain (\u201cConfidential Information\u201d).\n\n       B.          All Litigation Material that a Party claims is Confidential Information and subject\n\nto the terms of the Protective Order must be designated as Confidential Information by\n\nconspicuously stamping the word \u201cCONFIDENTIAL\u201d on each page (except that in the case of\n\nmulti-page document in which the pages are consecutively numbered, only the first page need be\n\nso stamped) or, in the case of other information, by notifying the other Parties in writing.\n\nConfidential Information disclosed at a deposition shall be designated as such on the record or by\n\na letter to all counsel of record within 30 days of receiving the transcript. Until the 30-day\n\nperiod elapses, the Parties shall treat such deposition material and testimony as Confidential\n\nInformation.\n\n     IV.       RESTRICTIONS ON USE OF CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION\n\n       Confidential Information shall not be disclosed or disseminated to anyone, except:\n\n       A.          The undersigned counsel for the Parties and the regular employees of outside\n\ncounsel to whom it is necessary that the information be disclosed for purposes of this Action, and\n\nin- house counsel and current employees of the Parties who are in fact assisting in the prosecution\n\nor defense of this case and their secretaries, clerks and legal assistants;\n\n\n                                                     2\n\f     Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 26-2          Filed 12/14/2006       Page 3 of 6\n\n\n\n       B.      The Court, the jury, court personnel, and court reporters, provided that prio r to\n\nfiling any Confidential Information, the Party attempting to file such information must comply\n\nwith the provisions set forth in Paragraph V(C) and (D) below;\n\n       C.      Any other person, entity or firm with the prior written consent of the Party who\n\ndesignated the material as Confidential Information; and,\n\n       D.      Any expert retained by a Party, or a deponent (solely for purposes of his/her\n\ndeposition), but only after complying with the provisions set forth in Paragraph V(B) below.\n\n       E.      If a Party that received Confidential Information (\u201cReceiving Party\u201d) becomes\n\nobligated to disclose the information in response to a lawful subpoena or other legal process, the\n\nReceiving Party shall give prompt written notice to the Party that produced the Confidential\n\nInformation (\u201cProducing Party\u201d) within five calendar days from receipt of the written notice to\n\nallow the Producing Party the opportunity to intervene and seek judicial protection from the\n\nenforcement of the subpoena and/or entry of an appropriate protective order in the Action in\n\nwhich the subpoena was issued.\n\n                            V.      GENERAL PROVISIONS\n\n       A.      If, prior to the date of this Protective Order, any Party shall have already produced\n\nor otherwise disclosed Litigation Material, the undersigned counsel for the Receiving Parties\n\nshall not disclose it to anyone outside of their law firms until ten days after the entry of this\n\nOrder. During those ten days, counsel for the Producing Party may in writing designate\n\nConfidential Information, in which event counsel for the Receiving Party shall be responsible for\n\nreturning the documents, things and information to the Producing Party so that the Confidential\n\nInformation may be appropriately marked. In the event a Producing Party produced or other\n\ndisclosed documents, things and information marked \u201cCONFIDENTIAL\u201d prior to entry of this\n\norder, such Confidential Information shall be protected by this Order.\n\n\n                                                   3\n\f    Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 26-2         Filed 12/14/2006       Page 4 of 6\n\n\n\n       B.      Each person to whom Confidential Information will be disseminated (other than\n\nthe Parties, the attorneys for the Parties and their employees, the Court, the jury, court personnel\n\nand court reporters) will be required, prior to any dissemination, to receive and read a copy of\n\nthis Order and to agree, in writing, to be bound by the terms of this Order, and to be personally\n\nsubject to the jurisdiction of this Court for the purpose of enforcement hereof. Counsel for any\n\nReceiving Party shall maintain a list of all such persons along with the written agreement of each\n\nperson to that effect, and shall provide copies of such written agreements to the Court for in\n\ncamera inspection if any Party files a motion to enforce this Order.\n\n       C.      Any hearing which refers to or describes Confidential Information may, in the\n\nCourt\u2019s discretion, be held in camera. Before a Party may refer to or describe Confidential\n\nInformation in a court hearing, that Party must request that the hearing be held in camera.\n\nNothing contained herein shall be deemed to constitute a waiver of any Party\u2019s right to contest\n\nthe sealing of any documents, things and information pursuant to Rule 26 of the Federal Rules of\n\nCivil Procedure.\n\n       D.      The Parties agree to file with the Court any Confidential Information only \u201cUnder\n\nSeal\u201d, to the extent allowed by the Court.\n\n       E.      If an objection to designation of documents, things and information as\n\nConfidential Information is made, counsel for the objecting Party (\u201cObjecting Party\u201d) shall set\n\nforth its objection in writing to the Producing Party, and such Objecting Party and Producing\n\nParty shall meet and confer as soon as practicable in a good faith effort to resolve their\n\ndifferences. Failing resolution, the Objecting Party may, as soon as practicable after the meeting\n\nand conference, file a motion to remove the Confidential Information designation. Pending\n\nresolution of the motion, the Confidential Information shall be treated as such, except as required\n\n\n\n\n                                                  4\n\f    Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB            Document 26-2         Filed 12/14/2006       Page 5 of 6\n\n\n\nby the Court and agreed upon in writing by the Parties. This paragraph in no way changes the\n\nburden of proof on the Parties under existing case law with respect to confidentiality of\n\ndocuments.\n\n       F.      If any Confidential Information is disclosed, through inadvertence or otherwise, to\n\na person not designated to receive such information under this Order, then the Party that\n\ndisclosed such information immediately shall use its best efforts to bind such person to the terms\n\nof this Order and identify such person to the Producing Party.\n\n       G.      The production of documents, things and information subject to the attorney-\n\nclient privilege, work product doctrine or other privilege shall not constitute a waiver of that\n\nprivilege for the documents, things and information or their subject matter. Upon notice of such\n\nproduction from the Producing Party, the Receiving Parties shall return the documents, things\n\nand information, and all copies thereof, to the Producing Party.\n\n       H.      This Order shall not be construed to preclude or limit any Party from opposing\n\nany discovery on any grounds that would otherwise be available. This Order shall not limit any\n\nParty\u2019s right to seek judicial order or to seek further and additional protection against or\n\nlimitation upon production or dissemination of documents, things and information or their\n\ncontents.\n\n        VI.     USE AND RETURN OF CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION\n\n       Within thirty days of the close of this Action, each Party shall use best efforts to retrieve\n\nall copies of other Parties\u2019 Confidential Information from their own files, and from experts or\n\nother persons to whom they have been provided consistent with this Order, and to return to the\n\nProducing Parties all copies of Confidential Information produced or otherwise disclosed during\n\nthis Action. In lieu of returning the same, Receiving Parties may certify that all documents,\n\nthings and information, and all copies thereof, have been destroyed. Confidential Information\n\n\n                                                  5\n\f    Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 26-2         Filed 12/14/2006      Page 6 of 6\n\n\n\nthat has been placed in any computer system shall be completely erased, and any documents,\n\nthings and information listing or summarizing such information shall be destroyed within the\n\nsame period. Each Party then shall provide the opposing Party with a letter certifying that he,\n\nshe or it has complied with this paragraph.\n\n\n\n       SIGNED this ____ day of _____________, 2006.\n\n                                                     ________________________________\n                                                       JUDGE JOHN D. BATES\n                                                       UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\n\n\n\n\n                                                6\n\f","ocr_status":2,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:44:42-07:00","document_number":"26","attachment_number":1,"pacer_doc_id":"0450531245","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":2,"description":"Exhibit A - Stipulation and Protective Order","acms_document_guid":""},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686730/","id":2686730,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/26/2/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.528749-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:09.052660-08:00","sha1":"d58717d002a6bdda4be15db87e9b3fb9f296230a","page_count":1,"file_size":9999,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.26.2.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.26.2.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":"     Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB         Document 26-3         Filed 12/14/2006      Page 1 of 1\n\n\n\n                        IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\n                            FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA\n\n____________________________________\n                                    :\nMARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS,         :\n                                    :\n      Plaintiff,                    :\n                                    :                Civil Action No. 1:05CV01483\n      vs.                           :\n                                    :                Judge John D. Bates\nFEDERAL NATIONAL MORTGAGE           :\n      ASSOCIATION, et al.           :\n                                    :\n      Defendants.                   :\n____________________________________:\n\n\n                                    [PROPOSED] ORDER\n\n       Upon consideration of the parties\u2019 Joint Motion for Entry of Stipulated Protective Order,\n\nit is hereby ordered that:\n\n       1.      The Motion is GRANTED; and\n\n       2.      It is hereby ORDERED that the Clerk of the Court shall accept and file the\n\nStipulated Protective Order affixed as Exhibit \u201cA\u201d to the Joint Motion for Entry of Stipulated\n\nProtective Order.\n\n\n\n\n                                                     __________________________________\n                                                     HONORABLE JUDGE JOHN D. BATES\n                                                     United States District Court Judge\n\f","ocr_status":2,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:46:47-07:00","document_number":"26","attachment_number":2,"pacer_doc_id":"0450539333","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":2,"description":"Text of Proposed Order","acms_document_guid":""}],"date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.506142-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:09.044725-08:00","date_filed":"2006-12-14","time_filed":null,"entry_number":26,"recap_sequence_number":"2006-12-14.003","pacer_sequence_number":null,"description":"Joint MOTION for Protective Order by FANNIE MAE, RICHARD LAWCH, GRACE HUERSCHER. (Attachments: # (1) Exhibit A - Stipulation and Protective Order# (2) Text of Proposed Order)(Grundeman, Kyra)","tags":[]},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/docket-entries/3579930/","id":3579930,"docket":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/dockets/4202584/","recap_documents":[{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686727/","id":2686727,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/25/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.498640-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:09.003801-08:00","sha1":"a7376e5a9944ffa1ce08087c3a5a55d420c5d70f","page_count":2,"file_size":30809,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.25.0.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.25.0.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":"     Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 25        Filed 09/06/2006       Page 1 of 2\n\n\n\n                          UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\n                          FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA\n\n\n\n MARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS,\n\n       Plaintiff,\n              v.                                         Civil Action No. 05-1483 (JDB)\n FEDERAL NATIONAL MORTGAGE\n ASSOCIATION, et al.,\n\n       Defendants.\n\n\n\n                                   SCHEDULING ORDER\n\n      Pursuant to the conference with the Court on September 6, 2006, and the Joint Rule 16.3\n\nReport, it is hereby ORDERED as follows:\n\n      1.     Amendments to the pleadings, if any, shall be filed by not later than October 31,\n\n             2006.\n\n      2.     Rule 26(a)(2) expert disclosures, if any, shall be served by not later than\n\n             November 6, 2006. Rebuttal expert disclosures, if any, shall be served by not later\n\n             than January 5, 2007.\n\n      3.     Each side shall be limited to seven (7) depositions, including depositions of\n\n             experts and non-parties.\n\n      4.     All discovery shall be completed by not later than March 5, 2007.\n\n      5.     Dispositive motions shall be filed by not later than April 20, 2007. Oppositions\n\n             shall be filed by not later than May 21, 2007. Replies shall be filed by not later\n\n             than June 11, 2007.\n\n      6.     A status hearing is scheduled for March 6, 2007, at 9:00 a.m. in Courtroom 8.\n\f        Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 25        Filed 09/06/2006       Page 2 of 2\n\n\n\n        7.     As to all other discovery issues not addressed in this Scheduling Order, the parties\n\n               must comply with the limitations and requirements of the Federal Rules of Civil\n\n               Procedure and the Local Civil Rules of this Court.\n\n        SO ORDERED.\n\n\n\n                                                          /s/\n                                                    JOHN D. BATES\n                                                United States District Judge\n\nDate:    September 6, 2006\n\n\n\n\n                                                -2-\n\f","ocr_status":2,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:45:31-07:00","document_number":"25","attachment_number":null,"pacer_doc_id":"04501825587","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":1,"description":"Order","acms_document_guid":""}],"date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.491330-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:08.994305-08:00","date_filed":"2006-09-06","time_filed":null,"entry_number":25,"recap_sequence_number":"2006-09-06.001","pacer_sequence_number":null,"description":"SCHEDULING ORDER. Signed by Judge John D. Bates on 9/6/2006. (CK)","tags":[]},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/docket-entries/3579929/","id":3579929,"docket":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/dockets/4202584/","recap_documents":[{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686726/","id":2686726,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/24/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.484853-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:08.985652-08:00","sha1":"52cb980defe2b7ce0626eb04408561552bf61cc3","page_count":9,"file_size":28870,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.24.0.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.24.0.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":"  Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 24        Filed 09/01/2006      Page 1 of 9\n\n\n\n                        UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\n                        FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA\n\n\n                             )\nMARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS, )\n                             )\n     Plaintiff,              )\n                             )                        Civil Action No. 05-1483 (JDB)\n     v.                      )\n                             )                          Judge John D. Bates\nFEDERAL NATIONAL MORTGAGE )\n ASSOCIATION, RICHARD LAWCH, )\n AND GRACE HUEBSCHER,        )\n                             )\n     Defendants.             )\n                             )\n\n\n         PARTIES\u2019 JOINT REPORT PURSUANT TO LOCAL RULE 16.3\n\n       Pursuant to Local Rule 16.3 and Fed. R. Civ. P. 26(f), plaintiff Marialice Bathrus\n\nWilliams (\u201cPlaintiff\u201d), and defendants Federal National Mortgage Association (\u201cFannie\n\nMae\u201d), Richard Lawch, and Grace Huebscher (\u201cDefendants\u201d), (collectively, the\n\n\u201cParties\u201d) hereby respectfully submit their Meet and Confer Statement, which is based\n\nupon telephonic meetings, exchanges of e-mail and a personal meeting between Michael\n\nW. Beasley, Esq., and/or Brian J. H. Lederer, Esq., counsel for Plaintiff, and Evelyn L.\n\nBecker, Esq., Sarah A. Goldfrank, Esq., and/or Kyra A. Grundeman, Esq., O\u2019Melveny &\n\nMyers LLP, counsel for Defendants, initiated on August 14, 2006.\n\n       Following this Court\u2019s Order on Defendants\u2019 motion to dismiss and, in the\n\nalternative, for summary judgment, and Plaintiff\u2019s motion for continuance pursuant to\n\nRule 56(f) to permit discovery in aid of her opposition to Defendants\u2019 motion for\n\nsummary judgment, dated June 26, 2006, two issues remain in this litigation.\n\f  Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 24         Filed 09/01/2006       Page 2 of 9\n\n\n\n        Plaintiff\u2019s statement of the issues is as follows: 1) Whether Plaintiff Williams, a\n\nformer employee of Defendant Federal National Mortgage Association (\u201cFannie Mae\u201d),\n\nwas denied by the Defendants, based on racial discrimination, the equal opportunity to\n\ncontract with Defendant Fannie Mae pursuant to business proposals made on or about\n\nMay 2001 (Count 1 of the Amended Complaint, as further modified by the Court\u2019s\n\nOrder); and 2) Whether Defendants conducted tortious interference with Plaintiff\u2019s\n\nlegitimate business relationships or prospective economic advantage regarding CAM\n\nFinancial co-brokerage agreement (Count IV of the Amended Complaint). Plaintiff\n\nasserts that Defendants\u2019 assertion of a defense of statute of limitations is without basis in\n\nlaw or fact.\n\n        Defendants\u2019 statement of the facts is as follows: (1) Whether Plaintiff brought a\n\nspecific proposal to Defendants in May 2001, Defendants rejected this alleged May 2001\n\nproposal, and Defendants intentionally discriminated against Plaintiff based on her race\n\nin violation of 42 U.S.C. \u00a7 1981 by rejecting this alleged May 2001 proposal; and (2)\n\nWhether Plaintiff had a valid business relationship or expectancy with CAM Financial\n\nwith respect to an alleged co-brokerage agreement, which Defendants intentionally\n\ninterfered with, causing a breach or termination of this alleged relationship or expectancy,\n\nand resulting damage.\n\n        Defendants deny the allegation that Plaintiff was subjected to racial\n\ndiscrimination, deny that there was any tortious interference with Plaintiff\u2019s legitimate\n\nbusiness relationships or prospective economic advantage regarding the CAM Financial\n\nco-brokerage agreement, deny the allegation that Plaintiff brought a specific proposal to\n\nDefendants in May 2001, deny the allegation that Plaintiff had a legitimate business\n\n\n\n\n                                              2\n\f  Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 24         Filed 09/01/2006        Page 3 of 9\n\n\n\nrelationship or expectancy with CAM Financial, and assert that all of Plaintiff\u2019s claims\n\nare barred by the statute of limitations.\n\n       For the Court\u2019s convenience, the remainder of the discussion herein follows the\n\nnumbering and topics set forth in Local Rule 16.3(c).\n\n       1.      Dispositive Motions/Discovery Timeframe: Plaintiff states that\n\ndispositive motions are not likely to resolve this matter. Plaintiff believes that there will\n\nbe a trial on the merits following the Court\u2019s ruling on further dispositive motions.\n\nDefendants believe that this matter is likely to be resolved through dispositive motions.\n\nAny motions for summary judgment should be filed within forty- five (45) days after the\n\nclose of discovery; any opposition brief to summary judgment should be filed within\n\nthirty (30) days after receipt of the filing of the motion; and any reply brief should be\n\nfiled within twenty (20) days after receipt of the filing of the opposition brief.\n\n       2.      Amendment to Pleadings:\n\n       Plaintiff\u2019s Statement: Plaintiff fully anticipates and believes, based on a review\n\nto date of the extensive documents in the CAM litigation and based on what Plaintiff\n\nbelieves will be revealed in the course of discovery, that further amendments to the\n\namended complaint will be forthcoming. The CAM litigation is CAM Financial v.\n\nGeneral Star International, Fannie Mae, et al., Southern District of Mississippi, 01-CV-\n\n00314-LG-JMR.\n\n       Defendants\u2019 Statement: At this time, Defendants do not consent to further\n\namendments to the Amended Complaint. Defendants shall respond promptly to any\n\nrequest for consent.\n\n\n\n\n                                               3\n\f  Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB            Document 24          Filed 09/01/2006       Page 4 of 9\n\n\n\n         3.     Assignment to Magistrate Judge : At this time, the Parties oppose referral\n\nof this case to a Magistrate Judge.\n\n         4.     Settlement Possibility: The Parties have preliminarily discussed\n\nsettlement as of the date of this filing, and are unable to settle this matter at this time.\n\n         5.     Alternative Dispute Resolution: The Parties discussed whether the case\n\nwould benefit from alternative dispute resolution (\u201cADR\u201d), considering the factors set\n\nforth in LCvR 16.3(c)(5)(i)-(v). The parties agree that ADR at this time would be\n\npremature, but may be helpful in the future, and will consider ADR after the close of\n\ndiscovery.\n\n         6.     Dispositive Motions/Discovery Timeframe: As noted above, the Parties\n\nbelieve that any dispositive motions should be filed within forty- five (45) days after the\n\nclose of discovery; that any opposition to the motion for summary judgment should be\n\nfiled within thirty (30) days after receipt of the filing of the motion; and that any reply\n\nbrief should be filed within twenty (20) days after receipt of the filing of the opposition\n\nbrief.\n\n         7.     Initial Disclosures: The Parties are willing to stipulate to dispensing with\n\nthe initial disclosures required by Fed. R. Civ. P. 26(a)(1).\n\n         8.     Discovery: The Parties propose that discovery be completed 180 days\n\nfrom the date of the Initial Scheduling Conference, now set for Wednesday, September 6,\n\n2006. The Parties believe that discovery matters, including limitations placed on\n\ndiscovery, should be governed by the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure and the Local\n\nRules of the United States District Court for the District of Columbia. Specifically, the\n\n\n\n\n                                                4\n\f  Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 24         Filed 09/01/2006        Page 5 of 9\n\n\n\nParties believe that twenty- five (25) interrogatories and seven (7) depositions per Party\n\nshould be sufficient.\n\n        9.      Experts: The Parties do not know at this time whether expert witnesses\n\nmay be necessary. The Parties propose that any experts be designated no later than sixty\n\n(60) days after the commencement of discovery, and that any rebuttal experts be\n\ndesignated no later than sixty (60) days thereafter. The Parties propose that all other\n\nrequirements of Fed. R. Civ. P. 26 regarding experts should apply.\n\n        10.     Class Actions : This case is not a class action and, therefore, this\n\nparagraph of Local Rule 16.3 does not apply.\n\n        11.     Bifurcation of Discovery or Trial: The Parties do not see any need for\n\nbifurcation at this time.\n\n        12.     Proposed Date for the Pretrial Conference: The Parties believe that the\n\nPretrial Conference for this proceeding should be scheduled following the close of\n\ndiscovery and the Court\u2019s rulings on outstanding dispositive motions.\n\n        13.     Trial Date: The Parties believe that the Court should schedule a trial date\n\nat the Pretrial Conference.\n\n        14.     Other Matters: The Parties are unaware of any other matters requiring the\n\nattention of the Court at this time.\n\n                                               Respectfully submitted,\n\n /S/ Michael W. Beasley (with permission)          /S/ Kyra A. Grundeman\n MICHAEL W. BEASLEY, ESQ.                          EVELYN L. BECKER, ESQ. (DC Bar\n D. C. Bar No. 248930                              No. 451163)\n 411 East Broad Street                             SARAH A. GOLDFRANK, ESQ. (D C\n Falls Church, Virginia 22046                      Bar No. 482382)\n Phone: (703) 241-2909                             KYRA A. GRUNDEMAN, ESQ. (DC Bar\n Fax: (703) 241-5885                               No. 493622)\n E-Mail: beasleys@erols.com\n\n\n\n                                               5\n\f Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB         Document 24         Filed 09/01/2006    Page 6 of 9\n\n\n\n                                               O\u2019MELVENY & MYERS, LLP\n/S/ Brian J.H. Lederer (with permission)       1625 Eye Street, N. W.\nBRIAN J.H. LEDERER, ESQ.                       Washington, D. C. 20006\nD. C. Bar No. 184184                           Phone: (202) 383-5300\n3003 Van Ness Street, N. W.                    Fax: (202) 383-5414\nSuite #W228                                    E-Mail: ebecker@omm.com\nWashington, D. C. 20008                                sgoldfrank@omm.com\nPhone: (202) 244-1715                                  kgrundeman@omm.com\n\nCounsel for Plaintiff                          Counsel for Defendants\n\n\nDated: September 1, 2006\n\n\n\n\n                                           6\n\f  Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 24          Filed 09/01/2006      Page 7 of 9\n\n\n\n                        UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\n                        FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA\n\n\n                             )\nMARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS, )\n                             )\n     Plaintiff,              )\n                             )                           Civil Action No. 05-1483 (JDB)\n     v.                      )\n                             )                            Judge John D. Bates\nFEDERAL NATIONAL MORTGAGE )\n ASSOCIATION, RICHARD LAWCH, )\n AND GRACE HUEBSCHER,        )\n                             )\n     Defendants.             )\n                             )\n\n\n                        [PROPOSED] SCHEDULING ORDER\n\n       On July 12, 2006, this Court filed an Order for an Initial Scheduling Conference.\n\nPursuant to the Court\u2019s directive on that date, the parties have filed a Joint Report\n\nPursuant to Local Rule 16.3. It is hereby\n\n       ORDERED that the following deadlines and provisions shall govern scheduling\n\nand discovery in this case:\n\n              PROCEDURE                                            DEADLINE\n\nDeadline to Designate Expert Witnesses            November 6, 2006\nDeadline to Designate Rebuttal Expert             January 5, 2007\nWitnesses\nDeadline to Complete Discovery                    March 5, 2007\nDeadline to File Dispositive Motions              April 19, 2007\nDeadline to Respond to Dispositive                May 21, 2007\nMotions\nDeadline to Reply to Dispositive Motions          June 11, 2007\n\n\n\n\n                                              7\n\f  Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 24      Filed 09/01/2006       Page 8 of 9\n\n\n\n       IT IS FURTHER ORDERED that the Pretrial Conference will be scheduled\n\nfollowing the close of discovery and the Court\u2019s rulings on outstanding dispositive\n\nmotions. It is further\n\n       ORDERED that the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure and the Local Rules shall\n\ngovern limitations on discovery.\n\nIT IS SO ORDERED.\n\n       SIGNED this the ____ day of September, 2006.\n\n                                     ___________________________\n\n                                     UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE\n\n\n\n\n                                            8\n\f Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB         Document 24      Filed 09/01/2006    Page 9 of 9\n\n\n\n                           CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE\n\n       I HEREBY CERTIFY that a true and correct copy of the foregoing was furnished\nby U.S. mail this 1st day of September, 2006 upon:\n\nMichael W. Beasley, Esq.                               Brian Lederer, Esq.\n411 East Broad Street                                  3003 Van Ness Street, N.W.\nFalls Church, VA 22046                                 Suite #W228\n                                                       Washington, D.C. 20008\n\n\n\n\n/s/ Kyra A. Grundeman________\nKyra Grundeman\n\n\n\n\n                                         9\n\f","ocr_status":2,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:42:13-07:00","document_number":"24","attachment_number":null,"pacer_doc_id":"0450806029","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":1,"description":"Meet and Confer Statement","acms_document_guid":""}],"date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.479535-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:08.974336-08:00","date_filed":"2006-09-01","time_filed":null,"entry_number":24,"recap_sequence_number":"2006-09-01.001","pacer_sequence_number":null,"description":"MEET AND CONFER STATEMENT. (Grundeman, Kyra)","tags":[]},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/docket-entries/3579928/","id":3579928,"docket":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/dockets/4202584/","recap_documents":[{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686725/","id":2686725,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/23/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.473858-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:08.966008-08:00","sha1":"48c1c499826b1e86112670ec60161bab34f8ff28","page_count":1,"file_size":33661,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.23.0.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.23.0.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":"Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 23 Filed 08/17/2006 Page1 of1\n\nIN THE UNITED S'I`ATES DISTRICT COURT\nFOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA\n\n \n\nMARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS,\n\nPlaintiff,\nCivil Action No. 1:05CV01483\nvs.\nJudge John D. Bates\nFEDERAL NATIONAL MORTGAGE\nASSOCIATION, et al.\n\nDefendants.\n\n \n\nAPPEARANCE\nPlease enter the appearance of the undersigned counsel for defendants Federal National\n\nMortgage Association (\u201cFannie Mae\u201d), Richard Lawch and Grace Huebscher.\n\nAugust 17, 2006 Respectfully submitted,\n\n \n\nO\u2019Melveny & Myers LLP\n1625 Eye Street, N.W.\nWashington, D.C. 20006\n(202) 383-5300 (phone)\n(202) 383-5414 (fax)\n\nCounselfor Defendants F ederal National\nMortgage Association, Richard Lawch and\nGrace Huebscher\n\n","ocr_status":1,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:41:02-07:00","document_number":"23","attachment_number":null,"pacer_doc_id":"0450792824","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":1,"description":"Notice of Appearance","acms_document_guid":""}],"date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.468340-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:08.955747-08:00","date_filed":"2006-08-17","time_filed":null,"entry_number":23,"recap_sequence_number":"2006-08-17.001","pacer_sequence_number":null,"description":"NOTICE of Appearance by Kyra Anne Grundeman on behalf of all defendants (Grundeman, Kyra)","tags":[]},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/docket-entries/3579927/","id":3579927,"docket":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/dockets/4202584/","recap_documents":[{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686724/","id":2686724,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/22/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.461323-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:08.948005-08:00","sha1":"987c1bbaffacd1920ce691b61b1b8f33365d8540","page_count":2,"file_size":33667,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.22.0.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.22.0.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":"      Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 22        Filed 07/12/2006         Page 1 of 2\n\n\n\n                            UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\n                            FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA\n\n\n\n MARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS,\n\n        Plaintiff,\n                v.                                         Civil Action No. 05-1483 (JDB)\n FEDERAL NATIONAL MORTGAGE\n ASSOCIATION, et al.,\n\n        Defendants.\n\n\n\n                     ORDER FOR INITIAL SCHEDULING CONFERENCE\n\n       It is hereby ORDERED that the initial scheduling conference in this matter is set for\n\nSeptember 6, 2006, at 9:00 a.m. in Courtroom 8. Counsel who attend the scheduling conference\n\nmust be sufficiently familiar with the case to answer any questions that arise. Parties are\n\nwelcome to attend.\n\n       Counsel shall confer in accordance with Rule 16.3(a) of the Local Civil Rules and Rule\n\n26(f) of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure and shall submit their Joint Rule 16.3 Report\n\naddressing the topics listed in Local Civil Rule 16.3(c) no later than fourteen days following their\n\nconference, see L. Civ. R.16.3(d), and in no event less than three business days before the initial\n\nscheduling conference. Counsel also may include in their Joint Rule 16.3 Report a brief\n\nstatement of the case and any statutory basis for causes of action and defenses.\n\n       Written communication with the Court is to be by motion, opposition, and reply, rather\n\nthan letter. See L. Civ. R. 5.1(b). The parties are directed to the requirements of Local Civil Rule\n\n7.1(c) regarding the submission of proposed orders with all motions and oppositions and to the\n\n\n                                                 -1-\n\f      Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB         Document 22        Filed 07/12/2006      Page 2 of 2\n\n\n\nrequirements of Local Civil Rule 7.1(m) regarding the duty to confer on all nondispositive\n\nmotions (including those for enlargements of time).\n\n\n\n\n                                                         /s/\n                                                   JOHN D. BATES\n                                               United States District Judge\n\nDated:   July 12, 2006\n\n\n\nCopies to:\n\nMichael W. Beasley\n411 East Broad St.\nFalls Church, VA 22046\nEmail: beasleys@erols.com\n\nBrian J.H. Lederer\n3003 Van Ness St., NW\nSuite W228\nWashington, DC 20008\n\nEvelyn L. Becker\nSarah Alexander Goldfrank\nO'Melveny & Myers, LLP\n1625 Eye St., NW\nWashington, DC 20006\nEmail: ebecker@omm.com, sgoldfrank@omm.com\n\n\n\n\n                                               -2-\n\f","ocr_status":2,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:42:23-07:00","document_number":"22","attachment_number":null,"pacer_doc_id":"04501783764","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":1,"description":"Order","acms_document_guid":""}],"date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.454280-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:08.937286-08:00","date_filed":"2006-07-12","time_filed":null,"entry_number":22,"recap_sequence_number":"2006-07-12.001","pacer_sequence_number":null,"description":"ORDER setting initial scheduling conference for 9/6/2006 at 9:00 a.m. in Courtroom 8. See text of Order for details. Signed by Judge John D. Bates on 7/12/2006. (CK)","tags":[]},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/docket-entries/3579926/","id":3579926,"docket":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/dockets/4202584/","recap_documents":[{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686723/","id":2686723,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/21/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.446909-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:08.928489-08:00","sha1":"ff958dcd54b97c4169a9e1af84f068571838f1f7","page_count":13,"file_size":33417,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.21.0.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.21.0.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":"     Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 21         Filed 07/11/2006       Page 1 of 13\n\n\n\n                        IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\n                            FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA\n\n____________________________________\n                                    :\nMARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS,         :                 Civil Action No. 1:05cv01483\n                                    :\n      Plaintiff,                    :\n                                    :                 Judge John D. Bates\n      vs.                           :\n                                    :                 DEFENDANTS FEDERAL NATIONAL\nFEDERAL NATIONAL MORTGAGE           :                 MORTGAGE ASSOCIATION,\nASSOCIATION, RICHARD LAWCH,         :                 RICHARD LAWCH, AND GRACE\nAND GRACE HUEBSCHER,                :                 HUEBSCHER\u2019S ANSWER AND\n                                    :                 AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSES TO\n      Defendants.                   :                 PLAINTIFF\u2019S AMENDED\n____________________________________:                 COMPLAINT\n\n       Defendants Federal National Mortgage Association (\u201cFannie Mae\u201d), Richard Lawch and\n\nGrace Huebscher (collectively, \u201cdefendants\u201d) respectfully submit their answer and affirmative\n\ndefenses to plaintiff\u2019s Amended Complaint (\u201cComplaint\u201d). Unless specifically admitted,\n\ndefendants deny each and every averment in the Complaint. Defendants have not yet completed\n\ntheir investigation into all the facts underlying or supporting their defenses in this lawsuit. This\n\nAnswer is based on defendants\u2019 reasonable investigation to date. Defendants reserve the right to\n\nsupplement this Answer as necessary.\n\n                                              ANSWER\n\n                                             PARTIES\n\n       1.      Defendants admit that plaintiff Marialice Bathrus Williams (\u201cplaintiff\u201d) is an\n\nAfrican-American woman. Defendants are without information or knowledge sufficient to form\n\na belief as to the remaining allegations in the first sentence of paragraph 1 of the Complaint, and\n\ntherefore deny these allegations. Defendants admit that plaintiff was employed by Fannie Mae\n\f     Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 21         Filed 07/11/2006       Page 2 of 13\n\n\n\nin various positions, including as an attorney, Assistant Director, and Director, from 1989 to\n\n1998. Defendants deny each and every remaining allegation in paragraph 1 of the Complaint.\n\n       2.      Defendants state that Fannie Mae is a federally-chartered, shareholder-owned\n\ncorporation, and admit that Fannie Mae\u2019s primary place of business is located at 3900 Wisconsin\n\nAvenue, N.W., Washington, D.C. 20016-2892. Defendants further admit that, in certain cases,\n\nFannie Mae is considered a federal instrumentality. Defendants deny each and every remaining\n\nallegation in paragraph 2 of the Complaint.\n\n       3.      Defendants admit that Mr. Lawch is a white male, who is currently residing at\n\n8316 Snug Hill Lane, Potomac, Maryland 20854. Defendants also admit that Mr. Lawch was a\n\nVice President in the Multifamily Division of Fannie Mae in 1991 and subsequently became a\n\nSenior Vice President in that Division. Defendants admit that plaintiff purports to sue Mr.\n\nLawch in his personal capacity but deny that plaintiff is entitled to any relief on her claims.\n\nDefendants deny each and every remaining allegation in paragraph 3 of the Complaint.\n\n       4.      Defendants admit that Ms. Huebscher is a white female, who is currently residing\n\nat 8805 Jones Mill Road, Chevy Chase, Maryland 20815-4726. Defendants also admit that Ms.\n\nHuebscher has served as a Vice President in the Multifamily Division from 1998 through the\n\npresent. Defendants state that Ms. Huebscher\u2019s current title is Vice President for Capital\n\nMarkets. Defendants further admit that Ms. Huebscher assumed some of the duties and\n\nresponsibilities of plaintiff following her departure from employment at Fannie Mae.\n\nDefendants admit that plaintiff purports to sue Ms. Huebscher in her personal capacity but deny\n\nthat plaintiff is entitled to any relief on her claims. Defendants deny each and every remaining\n\nallegation in paragraph 4 of the Complaint.\n\n\n\n\n                                                  2\n\f     Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB            Document 21         Filed 07/11/2006        Page 3 of 13\n\n\n\n                                          JURISDICTION\n\n        5.      Defendants admit that plaintiff seeks to bring claims under Section 1981 of the\n\nCivil Rights Act of 1964 before this Court. Defendants deny each and every remaining\n\nallegation in paragraph 5 of the Complaint.\n\n        6.      Defendants admit that plaintiff seeks to bring claims under Section 1985 of the\n\nCivil Rights Act of 1964 before this Court. Defendants deny each and every remaining\n\nallegation in paragraph 6 of the Complaint.\n\n        7.      Defendants admit that jurisdiction is proper before this Court pursuant to 28\n\nU.S.C. 1331. Defendants also state that Title III of the National Housing Act, 12 U.S.C. \u00a7 1716,\n\net seq. (\u201cFannie Mae Charter Act\u201d), confers an independent grant of federal jurisdiction upon\n\nclaims brought against Fannie Mae. Defendants deny each and every remaining allegation in\n\nparagraph 7 of the Complaint.\n\n        8.      Paragraph 8 of the Complaint contains legal conclusions to which no response is\n\nrequired. To the extent a response is required, the allegations are denied.\n\n        9.      Paragraph 9 of the Complaint contains legal conclusions to which no response is\n\nrequired. To the extent a response is required, the allegations are denied. Defendants\n\nspecifically deny that plaintiff is entitled to recover for attorneys fees and costs.\n\n                                               VENUE\n\n        10.     Defendants admit that venue is proper in this District. Defendants deny each and\n\nevery remaining allegation in paragraph 10 of the Complaint.\n\n\n\n\n                                                   3\n\f     Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 21         Filed 07/11/2006      Page 4 of 13\n\n\n\n                                        BACKGROUND\n\n       11.     Defendants admit that plaintiff was employed by Fannie Mae in its Multifamily\n\nDivision from January 1990 to June 1998. Defendants deny each and every remaining allegation\n\nin paragraph 11 of the Complaint.\n\n       12.     Defendants admit that during her tenure in the Multifamily Division of Fannie\n\nMae plaintiff was invo lved in the development of insurance policies for certain multifamily loan\n\ntransactions. Defendants deny each and every remaining allegation in paragraph 12 of the\n\nComplaint.\n\n       13.     Defendants admit that during her tenure at Fannie Mae plaintiff helped develop\n\nproducts that supported Fannie Mae\u2019s secondary market activities. Defendants deny each and\n\nevery remaining allegation in paragraph 13 of the Complaint.\n\n       14.     Denied.\n\n       15.     Denied.\n\n       16.     Denied.\n\n       17.     Denied.\n\n       18.     Defendants are without information or knowledge sufficient to form a belief\n\nconcerning the allegations in paragraph 18 of the Complaint, and therefore deny these\n\nallegations.\n\n       19.     Defendants admit that plaintiff left the employment of Fannie Mae in June 1998\n\npursuant to an agreement that speaks for itself. To the extent the allegations in paragraph 19 of\n\nthe Complaint are inconsistent with the referenced agreement, they are denied. Defendants deny\n\neach and every remaining allegation in paragraph 19 of the Complaint.\n\n       20.     Denied.\n\n\n\n\n                                                 4\n\f     Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 21        Filed 07/11/2006       Page 5 of 13\n\n\n\n       21.     Denied.\n\n       22.     Denied.\n\n       23.     Defendants state that the referenced correspondence speaks for itself. To the\n\nextent the allegations in paragraph 23 of the Complaint are inconsistent with the correspondence,\n\nthey are denied. Defendants deny each and every remaining allegation in paragraph 23 of the\n\nComplaint.\n\n       24.     Defendants admit that, on occasion, Fannie Mae has developed a business\n\nrelationship with a former employee. Defendants deny each and every remaining allegation in\n\nparagraph 24 of the Complaint.\n\n       25.     Denied.\n\n       26.     Defendants admit that Fannie Mae has acted fairly and without discrimination or\n\nunlawful retaliation in its consideration of former employees for business opportunities with the\n\ncorporation. Defendants deny each and every remaining allegation in paragraph 26 of the\n\nComplaint, and specifically deny that communications with plaintiff were intended to cause a\n\ncertain response.\n\n       27.     Denied.\n\n       28.     Concerning the allegations in the second sentence of paragraph 28, defendants\n\nadmit that they knew that plaintiff informed Fannie Mae that she would be working on risk\n\ntransfer products. Defendants deny each and every remaining allegation in paragraph 28 of the\n\nComplaint.\n\n       29.     The first sentence of paragraph 29 of the Complaint is vague and ambiguous, and\n\naccordingly defendants are without knowledge sufficient to form a belief as to the truth of the\n\nallegations contained therein. Concerning the allegations in the second sentence of paragraph\n\n\n\n\n                                                5\n\f     Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 21         Filed 07/11/2006       Page 6 of 13\n\n\n\n29, defendants admit that they do not treat former employees who are African-American females\n\nany differently than they treat former employees who are white males. Defendants deny each\n\nand every remaining allegation in paragraph 29 of the Complaint.\n\n       30.      Denied.\n\n       31.      Defendants are without information or knowledge sufficient to form a belief\n\nconcerning the allegations in paragraph 31 of the Complaint with respect to the plaintiff\u2019s\n\ninvestment in the broker business, and therefore deny these allegations. Defendants deny each\n\nand every remaining allegation in paragraph 31 of the Complaint.\n\n       32.     Defendants admit that they were aware that CAM Financial and plaintiff had\n\ncommunications regarding potential business. Defendants are without information or knowledge\n\nsufficient to form a belief concerning the remaining allegations in the first sentence of paragraph\n\n32 of the Complaint, and therefore deny these allegations. Concerning the allegations contained\n\nin the second sentence of paragraph 32, the referenced correspondence speaks for itself. To the\n\nextent the allegations in paragraph 32 of the Complaint are inconsistent with the correspondence,\n\nthey are denied. Defendant s deny each and every remaining allegation in paragraph 32 of the\n\nComplaint.\n\n       33.     Defendants are without information or knowledge sufficient to form a belief\n\nconcerning the allegations in paragraph 33 of the Complaint, and therefore deny these\n\nallegations.\n\n       34.     Defendants are without information or knowledge sufficient to form a belief\n\nconcerning the allegations in paragraph 34 of the Complaint, and therefore deny these\n\nallegations.\n\n\n\n\n                                                 6\n\f     Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 21         Filed 07/11/2006       Page 7 of 13\n\n\n\n       35.     Defendants are without information or knowledge sufficient to form a belief\n\nconcerning the allegations in the first sentence of paragraph 35 of the Complaint, and therefore\n\ndeny these allegations. The allegations in the second sentence of paragraph 35 of the Complaint\n\nare denied.\n\n       36.     The allegations in the first and second sentences of paragraph 36 of the Complaint\n\nare denied. Concerning the allegations in the third sentence of paragraph 36, defendants are\n\nwithout information or knowledge sufficient to form a belief as to whether plaintiff \u201cworked\n\ndiligently and in good faith to consummate business with defendants\u201d and whether her basis for\n\nentering into a confidentiality agreement with Fannie Mae was to ensure \u201cthat the proprietary\n\nnature of Plaintiff Williams\u2019 business initiatives and product development concepts could not be\n\nimproperly utilized,\u201d and therefore deny these allegations.\n\n       37.     Denied.\n\n       38.     Defendants are without information or knowledge sufficient to form a belief\n\nconcerning the allegations in paragraph 38 of the Complaint, and therefore deny these\n\nallegations. Answering further, Fannie Mae states that it specifically instructed plaintiff that she\n\nshould not purport to represent Fannie Mae after she left her employment with the company.\n\n       39.     Defendants are without information or knowledge sufficient to form a belief\n\nconcerning the allegations in paragraph 39 of the Complaint, and therefore deny these\n\nallegations. Answering further, Fannie Mae states that it specifically instructed plaintiff that she\n\nshould not purport to represent Fannie Mae after she left her employment with the company.\n\n       40.     Paragraph 40 of the Complaint is vague and ambiguous, and accordingly\n\ndefendants are without knowledge sufficient to form a belief as to the truth of the allegations\n\ncontained therein. Defendants reserve the right to supplement their response to this paragraph.\n\n\n\n\n                                                  7\n\f     Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 21        Filed 07/11/2006      Page 8 of 13\n\n\n\n       41.     Denied.\n\n       42.     Defendants admit that Ms. Huebscher received an e-mail from plaintiff in May\n\n2001 stating that three A+ rated insurance companies were interested in possibly insuring DUS\n\nloans. Defendants also admit that Fannie Mae did not enter into a transaction related to the\n\nreferenced e-mail. Defendants deny each and every remaining allegation in paragraph 42 of the\n\nComplaint.\n\n       43.     Denied.\n\n       44.     Denied.\n\n       45.     Denied.\n\n       46.     Defendants state that the referenced correspondence speaks for itself. To the\n\nextent the allegations in paragraph 46 of the Complaint are inconsistent with the correspondence,\n\nthey are denied. Defendants deny each and every remaining allegation in paragraph 46 of the\n\nComplaint.\n\n       47.     Defendants admit that plaintiff was on notice of the contents of the referenced\n\ncorrespondence by June 4, 2001, but are without information or knowledge sufficient to form a\n\nbelief concerning the exact date plaintiff received the correspondence, and therefore deny those\n\nallegations. The allegations in the second sentence of paragraph 47 are denied.\n\n       48.     Denied.\n\n       49.     Denied.\n\n       50.     Defendants admit that plaintiff had a fair and equal opportunity to make and\n\nachieve contracts with Fannie Mae. Defendants also admit that plaintiff contacted Fannie Mae\n\nabout the possibility of doing business with the company, but defendants are without information\n\nor knowledge sufficient to form a belief as to the allegations concerning when any such\n\n\n\n\n                                                8\n\f     Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB         Document 21          Filed 07/11/2006   Page 9 of 13\n\n\n\ncommunications ceased, and therefore deny these allegations. Defendants deny each and every\n\nremaining allegation in paragraph 50 of the Complaint.\n\n       51.    Denied.\n\n       52.    Denied.\n\n       53.    Denied.\n\n       54.    Denied.\n\n       55.    Denied.\n\n       56.    Denied.\n\n       57.    Denied.\n\n       58.    Denied.\n\n       59.    Denied.\n\n       60.    Denied.\n\n       61.    Denied.\n\n       62.    Denied.\n\n       63.    Denied.\n\n       64.    Denied.\n\n       65.    Denied.\n\n       66.    Denied.\n\n       67.    Denied.\n\n       68.    Denied.\n\n       69.    Denied.\n\n                                        COUNT I\n                    (Unlawful Discrimination Based Upon Race and Sex)\n\n       70.    Defendants incorporate their responses to paragraphs 1-69 of the Complaint.\n\n\n\n                                               9\n\f    Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 21        Filed 07/11/2006      Page 10 of 13\n\n\n\n       71.      Paragraph 71 of the Complaint contains legal conclusions to which no response is\n\nrequired. To the extent a response is required, the allegations are denied.\n\n       72.      Denied.\n\n                                           COUNT II\n             (Unlawful Retaliation for the Prior Exercise of Protected Civil Rights)\n\n       73.      Defendants incorporate their responses to paragraphs 1-72 of the Complaint.\n\n       74.      Paragraph 74 of the Complaint contains legal conclusions to which no response is\n\nrequired. To the extent a response is required, the allegations are denied.\n\n       75.      Denied.\n\n                                        COUNT III\n                  (Unlawful Conspiracy to Deny Plaintiff the Opportunity to\n                        Make Contracts Based Upon Race and Sex)\n\n       76.      Defendants incorporate their responses to paragraphs 1-75 of the Complaint.\n\n       77.      Paragraph 77 of the Complaint contains legal conclusions to which no response is\n\nrequired. To the extent a response is required, the allegations are denied.\n\n       78.      Denied.\n\n                                          COUNT IV\n                (Tortious Interference with Business Relationships, Specifically\n             Including Plaintiff\u2019s Expectation of Prospective Business Advantage)\n\n       79.      Defendants incorporate their responses to paragraphs 1-78 of the Complaint.\n\n       80.      Paragraph 80 of the Complaint contains legal conclusions to which no response is\n\nrequired. To the extent a response is required, the allegations are denied.\n\n       81.      Denied.\n\n                                            COUNT V\n                          (Intentional Infliction of Emotional Distress)\n\n       82.      Defendants incorporate their responses to paragraphs 1-81 of the Complaint.\n\n\n\n\n                                                10\n\f     Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 21         Filed 07/11/2006       Page 11 of 13\n\n\n\n         83.    Paragraph 83 of the Complaint contains legal conclusions to which no response is\n\nrequired. To the extent a response is required, the allegations are denied.\n\n         84.    Denied.\n\n                                             DEFENSES\n\n         Defendants incorporate by reference herein the denials, admissions and allegations set\n\nforth in paragraphs 1 through 84 above. Defendants assert the following additional defenses:\n\n         1.     The Complaint fails to state any claim against defendant upon which relief can be\n\ngranted.\n\n         2.     Plaintiff\u2019s claims may be barred, in whole or in part, from recovery because it has\n\nmade statements or taken actions that estops it from asserting its claims or constitute a waiver of\n\nits claims.\n\n         3.     Plaintiff\u2019s claims may be barred, in whole or in part, from recovery on the ground\n\nthat Defendant has discharged its obligations to the claimant.\n\n         4.     Plaintiff\u2019s claims may be barred, in whole or in part under applicable statutes of\n\nlimitations or repose or the doctrine of laches.\n\n         5.     Plaintiff\u2019s claims may be barred, in whole or in part, by the doctrine of unclean\n\nhands.\n\n         6.     Any loss and/or damages that may have been sustained by plaintiff was directly\n\nand proximately caused by the superseding, intervening acts or omissions of plaintiff itself, a\n\nthird party or third parties for which Fannie Mae is neither responsible nor liable.\n\n         7.     Plaintiff has not sustained any damages compensable at law.\n\n         8.     Fannie Mae is immune from punitive damages.\n\n         9.     Defendants reserve the right to assert and pursue additional defenses that may\n\n\n\n\n                                                   11\n\f    Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB            Document 21        Filed 07/11/2006        Page 12 of 13\n\n\n\nbecome known through discovery or otherwise.\n\n                                        PRAYER FOR R ELIEF\n\n          Wherefore, defendants pray that the Court determine and adjudge:\n\n          (a)    that the Complaint be dismissed on the merits;\n\n          (b)    that plaintiff take nothing by the Complaint;\n\n          (c)    that defendants be awarded its costs, disbursements, attorneys\u2019 fees, and expenses\n\nincurred herein; and,\n\n          (d)    that defendants be awarded such other and further relief as the Court may deem\n\nproper.\n\nJuly 11, 2006                                          Respectfully submitted,\n\n                                                       /s/ Sarah A. Goldfrank\n                                                       Evelyn L. Becker (D.C. Bar No. 451163)\n                                                       Sarah A. Goldfrank (D.C. Bar No. 482382)\n                                                       O\u2019Melveny & Myers LLP\n                                                       1625 Eye Street, N.W.\n                                                       Washington, D.C. 20006\n                                                       (202) 383-5300 (phone)\n                                                       (202) 383-5414 (fax)\n\n                                                       Counsel for Defendants Federal National\n                                                       Mortgage Association, Richard Lawch and\n                                                       Grace Huebscher\n\n\n\n\n                                                  12\n\f    Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB        Document 21       Filed 07/11/2006     Page 13 of 13\n\n\n\n                              CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE\n\n        I HEREBY CERTIFY that a true and correct copy of the foregoing was furnished by U.S.\nmail this 11th day of July, 2006 upon:\n\nMichael W. Beasley, Esq.                                Brian Lederer, Esq.\n411 East Broad Street                                   3003 Van Ness Street, N.W.\nFalls Church, VA 22046                                  Suite #W228\n                                                        Washington, D.C. 20008\n\n\n\n                                                        /s/ Sarah A. Goldfrank\n                                                        Sarah A. Goldfrank\n\n\n\n\n                                            13\n\f","ocr_status":2,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:43:06-07:00","document_number":"21","attachment_number":null,"pacer_doc_id":"04501782555","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":1,"description":"Answer to Amended Complaint","acms_document_guid":""}],"date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.439680-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:08.918853-08:00","date_filed":"2006-07-11","time_filed":null,"entry_number":21,"recap_sequence_number":"2006-07-11.001","pacer_sequence_number":null,"description":"ANSWER to Amended Complaint by FANNIE MAE, RICHARD LAWCH, GRACE HUERSCHER. Related document: [9] Amended Complaint filed by MARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS,.(Goldfrank, Sarah)","tags":[]},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/docket-entries/3579925/","id":3579925,"docket":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/dockets/4202584/","recap_documents":[{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686722/","id":2686722,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/20/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.433197-07:00","date_modified":"2024-09-12T01:51:56.692221-07:00","sha1":"562202f2d489cd4c3b201dfc3c3109b4794b8310","page_count":2,"file_size":34719,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.20.0.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.20.0.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":"      Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB            Document 20       Filed 06/26/2006      Page 1 of 2\n\n\n\n                             UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\n                             FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA\n\n\n\n MARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS,\n\n         Plaintiff,\n                 v.                                        Civil Action No. 05-1483 (JDB)\n FEDERAL NATIONAL MORTGAGE\n ASSOCIATION, et al.,\n\n         Defendants.\n\n\n\n\n                                                 ORDER\n\n        Upon consideration of defendants' motion to dismiss and, in the alternative, for summary\n\njudgment, and plaintiff's motion for continuance pursuant to Rule 56(f) to permit discovery in\n\naid of her opposition to defendants' motion for summary judgment, and for the reasons stated in\n\nthe memorandum opinion issued on this date, it is hereby\n\n        ORDERED that defendants' motion to dismiss is GRANTED IN PART and DENIED\n\nIN PART; it is further\n\n        ORDERED that plaintiff's claims of racial discrimination pursuant to 42 U.S.C.\n\n\u00a7 1981 (Count I) may proceed only with respect to the claim that defendants unlawfully rejected\n\nher May 2001 proposal, and Count I is dismissed in all other respects; it is further\n\n        ORDERED that plaintiff's claims of tortious interference with business relationships or\n\nprospective economic advantage may proceed only with respect to defendants' alleged tortious\n\ninterference with the CAM Financial co-brokerage agreement (Count IV), and Count IV is\n\ndismissed in all other respects; it is further\n\f      Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 20        Filed 06/26/2006       Page 2 of 2\n\n\n\n         ORDERED that plaintiff's claims of retaliation under 42 U.S.C. \u00a7 1981 (Count II), civil\n\nconspiracy under 42 U.S.C. \u00a7 1985(3) (Count III), and intentional infliction of emotional distress\n\n(Count V) are DISMISSED; it is further\n\n         ORDERED that defendants' motion for summary judgment is DENIED without\n\nprejudice; and it is further\n\n         ORDERED that plaintiff's motion for continuance pursuant to Rule 56(f) to permit\n\ndiscovery in aid of her opposition to defendants' motion for summary judgment is GRANTED,\n\nand full discovery shall proceed in accordance with the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure and the\n\nLocal Civil Rules of the Court following the filing of defendants' answer to the amended\n\ncomplaint.\n\n         SO ORDERED.\n\n\n\n                                                            /s/\n                                                     JOHN D. BATES\n                                                 United States District Judge\nDated:    June 26, 2006\n\n\nCopies to:\n\nMichael W. Beasley\n411 East Broad St.\nFalls Church, VA 22046\nEmail: beasleys@erols.com\n\nBrian J.H. Lederer\n3003 Van Ness St., NW\nSuite W228\nWashington, DC 20008\n\nEvelyn L. Becker\nSarah Alexander Goldfrank\nO'Melveny & Myers, LLP\n1625 Eye St., NW\nWashington, DC 20006\nEmail: ebecker@omm.com, sgoldfrank@omm.com\n\f","ocr_status":2,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:46:20-07:00","document_number":"20","attachment_number":null,"pacer_doc_id":"04501769530","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":true,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":1,"description":"Order","acms_document_guid":""}],"date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.427793-07:00","date_modified":"2024-09-12T01:51:56.685233-07:00","date_filed":"2006-06-26","time_filed":null,"entry_number":20,"recap_sequence_number":"2006-06-26.002","pacer_sequence_number":94,"description":" ORDER on  10  defendants' motion to dismiss,  11  defendants' motion for summary judgment, and  13  plaintiff's motion for continuance pursuant to Rule 56(f) to permit discovery in aid of her opposition to defendants' motion for summary judgment.  See text of order for details.  Signed by Judge John D. Bates on 6/26/2006. (CK)","tags":[]},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/docket-entries/3579924/","id":3579924,"docket":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/dockets/4202584/","recap_documents":[{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686721/","id":2686721,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/19/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.422240-07:00","date_modified":"2024-11-12T08:06:02.923428-08:00","sha1":"f7883d130ba7c73ffd3d21ef1c49f0901cc1fc48","page_count":25,"file_size":150628,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.19.0.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.19.0.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":"     Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 19         Filed 06/26/2006       Page 1 of 25\n\n\n\n                            UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\n                            FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA\n\n\n\n MARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS,\n\n           Plaintiff,\n                  v.                                       Civil Action No. 05-1483 (JDB)\n FEDERAL NATIONAL MORTGAGE\n ASSOCIATION, et al.,\n\n           Defendants.\n\n\n\n                                  MEMORANDUM OPINION\n\n       Plaintiff, an African-American woman and former employee of the Federal National\n\nMortgage Association (\"Fannie Mae\"), brings this action against defendants Fannie Mae and two\n\nof its vice-presidents, Richard Lawch and Grace Huebscher. She alleges that, after her departure\n\nfrom Fannie Mae, defendants discriminated against her by denying her subsequent potential\n\nbusiness contracts on the basis of her race and prior protected civil rights activity and also\n\ninterfered with her business relationships with other entities.1 Plaintiff seeks damages pursuant\n\nto federal civil rights laws, 42 U.S.C. \u00a7\u00a7 1981 and 1985(3) (Counts I through III), and District of\n\nColumbia tort law (Counts IV and V).2\n\n\n\n\n       1\n        Plaintiff also originally asserted a sex discrimination claim under 42 U.S.C. \u00a7 1981, but\nwithdrew the claim at the motions hearing held on June 5, 2006. Mot. Hrg. Tr. at 25.\n       2\n         Plaintiff characterizes her \u00a7 1981 claim as being \"applied through\" 42 U.S.C. \u00a7 1983.\nHowever, as defendants point out, \u00a7 1983 has no applicability here. In order to bring a claim\nunder \u00a7 1983, a plaintiff must allege that the defendant acted under the color of state law. See\nGomez v. Toledo, 446 U.S. 635, 640 (1980) (holding that a plaintiff must allege both\ndeprivation of a federal right and that the depriving party acted under the color of state law in\norder to bring a \u00a7 1983 claim). Because plaintiff has not alleged that defendants acted under the\ncolor of state law, she may not bring (and has not brought) any claims under \u00a7 1983.\n\f     Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 19         Filed 06/26/2006       Page 2 of 25\n\n\n\n       Defendants move to dismiss all claims for failure to state a claim upon which relief can\n\nbe granted pursuant to Fed. R. Civ. P. 12(b)(6), and in the alternative, move for summary\n\njudgment on the ground that the three-year statute of limitations has expired for each claim.\n\nPlaintiff has moved for a continuance to permit discovery in aid of her opposition to summary\n\njudgment pursuant to Fed. R. Civ. P. 56(f). The Court held a hearing on the motions on June 5,\n\n2006. For the reasons explained below, the Court concludes that the amended complaint states a\n\nclaim for relief as to race discrimination in violation of \u00a7 1981 with respect to the rejection of her\n\nMay 2001 contract proposal and also states a claim for tortious interference with business\n\nrelationships. The remainder of the claims will be dismissed for failure to state a claim upon\n\nwhich relief can be granted. The Court also concludes that full discovery should proceed in this\n\nmatter, and thus grants plaintiff's motion for a continuance under Rule 56(f).\n\n                                         BACKGROUND\n\n       The following facts are alleged in plaintiff<s complaint, and are taken as true for purposes\n\nof resolving defendants' motion to dismiss. Plaintiff worked in various capacities at Fannie\n\nMae's Multifamily Division from January 1990 to June 1998. See Am. Compl. \u00b6 11. Plaintiff\n\ndeveloped securities and other insurance products while working with Fannie Mae customers\n\nunder the supervision of defendant Richard Lawch. Id. \u00b6\u00b6 13, 17. Plaintiff left Fannie Mae in\n\nJune 1998 after a negotiated settlement agreement resolving allegations of race and sex\n\ndiscrimination as well as retaliation. Id. \u00b6 19.\n\n       Both before and immediately after plaintiff left her position, Fannie Mae promised her a\n\ncontinuing post-departure business relationship, consistent with its common business practice of\n\nmaintaining commercial relationships with former employees. Id. \u00b6\u00b6 20, 21, 24. Lou Hoyes,\n\nSenior Vice President of Fannie Mae<s Multifamily Division, assured plaintiff in writing that\n\n\n                                                   2\n\f     Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 19         Filed 06/26/2006      Page 3 of 25\n\n\n\nFannie Mae would \"do at least $1 billion of insurance-based business in the next year through\n\nher, as a broker, and would utilize her services in the years following in addressing components\n\nof a yearly total market of approximately $10 billion.\" Id. \u00b6 22 .\n\n        In reliance on Hoyes's written statement as well as other \"promises and assurances\" by\n\ndefendants to do business with her, plaintiff started her own firm in October 1998 (\"Risk\n\nMitigation Strategists, LLC\") and obtained a broker\u2019s license. Id. \u00b6\u00b6 27, 33. Plaintiff also\n\ndeveloped a business plan which included the use of risk transfer products through Fannie Mae,\n\nanother common practice among former employees. Id. \u00b6 28. In developing her firm, plaintiff\n\nincurred financial obligations of over $500,000 in reliance on the promises to do business with\n\nher. Id. \u00b6 31. Furthermore, plaintiff's firm entered a joint venture with CAM Financial, another\n\nfirm with which she hoped to do business utilizing Fannie Mae insurance products. Id. \u00b6 32.\n\n        During this time and up until October 2003, defendants continued to promise plaintiff a\n\nbusiness relationship, although no contracts were consummated despite plaintiff's business\n\ndevelopment efforts. Id. \u00b6\u00b6 36, 41-42. In May 2001, plaintiff discussed with Fannie Mae a\n\nspecific proposal reflecting her ongoing and exhaustive work in refining her business products.\n\nIn that proposal, plaintiff and CAM Financial \"secured the interest of several A-plus rated\n\ninsurance companies and brought an additional and significant proposal to [Fannie Mae] for\n\ndoing specific mortgage-related business,\" which defendants rejected. Id. \u00b6 42. During this\n\ntime, defendants instead directed \"all such business and accompanying financial remuneration\"\n\nto Craig Ott, a white male without a history of protected EEO activities and whose credentials,\n\nexpertise, and experience in the relevant business were \"demonstrably inferior\" to those of\n\nplaintiff. Id. \u00b6\u00b6 45, 59.\n\n\n\n\n                                                 3\n\f     Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 19         Filed 06/26/2006      Page 4 of 25\n\n\n\n       On May 31, 2001, defendant Huebscher forwarded an e-mail to defendant Lawch which\n\nconsidered assigning the project to Ott. Id. \u00b6 46. In the e-mail, defendant Huebscher wrote:\n\n               \"Richard, Marialice [Williams] wants to pursue the credit risk\n               insurance for DUS risk. Do you want to pursue with her? MY\n               GUT IS NO but if you think it is worth continuing discussions, I\n               will focus on her questions?\"\n\nId. Defendant Lawch then responded by e-mail:\n\n               \"If Ofheo comes back with bad RBC rules we may be interested.\n               Are these different players than Craig [Ott] is showing us?\"\n\nId. Defendant Huebscher then replied:\n\n               \"Probably not so if we want to engage Craig [Ott] on this project,\n               that might be a better choice. If you like that plan then let\u2019s\n               discuss what we want to ask Craig to find for us . . . .\"\n\nId. At some point in the next month, June 2001, plaintiff received the e-mail from a former\n\ncolleague. Id. \u00b6 47. Plaintiff states that she did not understand the full meaning of the conduct\n\nreflected in the e-mail until October 2003, over two years later. Id.\n\n       Despite the sentiment of the e-mail, plaintiff continued to propose projects and\n\nwork assiduously on developing a business relationship with defendants based on their\n\nassurances of prospective business. Id. \u00b6 48. Plaintiff also alleges that from July 1998 to\n\nOctober 2003, defendants conspired to deny her the promised business relationships because of\n\nher race, sex, and former protected EEO activities, and defamed her to other potential clients in\n\norder to destroy her business reputation and relationships with other lenders and customers of\n\nFannie Mae. Id. \u00b6 62. As part of defendants' alleged campaign to destroy plaintiff's business\n\nrelationships, plaintiff alleges that defendants \"purposefully discouraged\" CAM Financial from\n\nentering into a co-brokerage agreement with plaintiff, causing her over $35,000,000 in lost co-\n\nbrokerage fees. Id. \u00b6\u00b6 61, 67.\n\n\n                                                 4\n\f     Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 19         Filed 06/26/2006       Page 5 of 25\n\n\n\n       In October 2003, plaintiff attended a meeting with Fannie Mae officials, including\n\ndefendant Huebscher, on the use of Captive Insurance Companies by Fannie Mae's Multifamily\n\nDivision. Id. \u00b6 51. After the meeting, Fannie Mae stopped all contact with plaintiff, and refused\n\nto respond to her calls. Id. \u00b6 53. Plaintiff alleges that, because of defendants' refusal to do\n\nbusiness with her and her resultant bankruptcy, she suffered severe emotional distress, pain and\n\nsuffering. Id. \u00b6\u00b6 66, 69.\n\n       Plaintiff filed suit on July 28, 2005. Her original complaint alleged that defendants\n\nunlawfully denied her the opportunity to make and enforce contracts and interfered with\n\ncontractual relationships based on her race and sex, and in retaliation against her former EEO\n\nactivities, and unlawfully conspired to do the same in violation of federal laws 42 U.S.C. \u00a7\u00a7\n\n1981 and 1985(3). She also raised four claims based on District of Columbia common law\n\n(breach of contractual relations, tortious interference with business relations, intentional\n\ninfliction of emotional distress, and defamation). See Compl. \u00b6\u00b6 61-82. In response to\n\ndefendants' first motion to dismiss, plaintiff filed an amended complaint dropping the counts\n\nrelated to breach of contract, contractual interference, and defamation but continuing to pursue\n\nthe other claims. See Am. Compl. \u00b6\u00b6 70-84.\n\n                                            ANALYSIS\n\nI.     Defendants' Motion to Dismiss Under Rule 12(b)(6)\n\n       A.      Standard of Review\n\n       A motion to dismiss pursuant to Fed. R. Civ. P. 12(b)(6) will not be granted unless \"it\n\nappears beyond doubt that the plaintiff can prove no set of facts in support of his claim which\n\nwould entitle him to relief.\" Conley v. Gibson, 355 U.S. 41, 45-46 (1957); see also Haynesworth\n\nv. Miller, 820 F.2d 1245, 1254 (D.C. Cir. 1987). All that the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure\n\n\n                                                  5\n\f     Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 19          Filed 06/26/2006       Page 6 of 25\n\n\n\nrequire of a complaint is that it contain \"'a short and plain statement of the claim' that will give\n\nthe defendant fair notice of what the plaintiff's claim is and the grounds upon which it rests.\"\n\nDura Pharmaceuticals, Inc. v. Broudo, 544 U.S. 336, 346 (2005) (quoting Conley, 355 U.S. at\n\n47). \"Given the Federal Rules' simplified standard for pleading, '[a] court may dismiss a\n\ncomplaint only if it is clear that no relief could be granted under any set of facts that could be\n\nproved consistent with the allegations.'\" Swierkiewicz v. Sorema N.A., 534 U.S. 506, 514\n\n(2002) (quoting Hishon v. King & Spalding, 467 U.S. 69, 73 (1984)).\n\n       Under Rule 12(b)(6), the plaintiff's factual allegations must be presumed true and should\n\nbe liberally construed in his or her favor. Leatherman v. Tarrant Cty. Narcotics and\n\nCoordination Unit, 507 U.S. 163, 164 (1993); Phillips v. Bureau of Prisons, 591 F.2d 966, 968\n\n(D.C. Cir. 1979). The plaintiff must be given every favorable inference that may be drawn from\n\nthe allegations of fact. Scheuer v. Rhodes, 416 U.S. 232, 236 (1974); Sparrow v. United Air\n\nLines, Inc., 216 F.3d 1111, 1113 (D.C. Cir. 2000). However, \"the court need not accept\n\ninferences drawn by plaintiff if such inferences are unsupported by the facts set out in the\n\ncomplaint. Nor must the court accept legal conclusions cast in the form of factual allegations.\"\n\nKowal v. MCI Commc'ns Corp., 16 F.3d 1271, 1276 (D.C. Cir. 1994); see also Domen v. Nat'l\n\nRehabilitation Hosp., 925 F. Supp. 830, 837 (D.D.C. 1996) (citing Papasan v. Allain, 478 U.S.\n\n265, 286 (1986)).\n\n       Furthermore, in resolving a motion to dismiss, the Court may consider documents\n\nspecifically referenced in the complaint where the authenticity of the document is not\n\nquestioned. See Newborn v. Yahoo!, Inc., 391 F. Supp. 2d 181, 188 n. 6 (D.D.C. 2005); see also\n\nNew York State Bar Ass'n v. F.T.C., 276 F. Supp. 2d 110, 114 n. 6 (D.D.C. 2003) (\"[A]\n\ndocument is not 'outside' the complaint if the complaint specifically refers to the document and if\n\n\n                                                  6\n\f     Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 19         Filed 06/26/2006       Page 7 of 25\n\n\n\nits authenticity is not questioned\") (quoting Cooper v. Pickett, 137 F.3d 616, 622-23 (9th Cir.\n\n1997)). In the present case, plaintiff cites in her complaint a letter written by Fannie Mae Senior\n\nVice President Lou Hoyes, a document which defendants have submitted in support of their\n\nmotion to dismiss. See Am. Compl. \u00b6\u00b6 23, 32; Defs.' Mot. to Dismiss 1-2. Because the\n\ncomplaint relies upon the document and its authenticity is not questioned, the Court may\n\nproperly consider it in resolving the motion.\n\n       B.      Racial Discrimination Under 42 U.S.C. \u00a7 19813\n\n       Plaintiff alleges that defendants' course of conduct from July 1998 to October 2003, and\n\nthe lack of any contracts awarded to her, supports her claim that defendants denied her the\n\nopportunity to make and enforce contracts on the basis of race, in violation of 42 U.S.C. \u00a7 1981.\n\nDefendants move to dismiss this claim on the ground that plaintiff has failed to identify, first,\n\nany specific contract that was denied to plaintiff or, second, that another person outside of her\n\nprotected class received a contract she was denied. In response, plaintiff contends, without\n\nciting any cases, that the law does not require her to identify any specific potential contracts at\n\nissue and, instead, that general allegations of reasonable and good faith efforts to develop a\n\nbusiness relationship are sufficient to sustain a \u00a7 1981 claim. The Court declines to adopt\n\n\n\n\n       3\n         It bears noting that the federal government may not be sued under \u00a7 1981 because the\nterms of this provision do not contain a waiver of federal sovereign immunity. See, e.g., Idrogo\nv. U.S. Army, 18 F. Supp. 2d 25, 29 (D.D.C. 1998); Williams v. Glickman, 936 F. Supp. 1, 5\n(D.D.C. 1996). Thus, the Court briefly addresses plaintiff's characterization of Fannie Mae as an\n\"instrumentality of the federal government.\" Am. Compl. \u00b6 2. Little discussion is needed, as it\nis well-established that Fannie Mae is a private, for-profit entity. See Federal Nat. Mortg. Ass\u2019n\nv. United States., 379 F.3d 1303, 1305 (Fed. Cir. 2004) (\"Formerly a federal government agency,\nFNMA is a private, for-profit entity that provides liquidity for mortgage investments\"). See also\nKatz v. Dime Sav. Bank, FSB, 992 F. Supp. 250, 255 (W.D.N.Y. 1997) (holding that defendants,\nincluding Fannie Mae, do not have sovereign immunity). Accordingly, Fannie Mae does not\nhave sovereign immunity, and the Court considers plaintiff's claim on its merits.\n\n                                                  7\n\f     Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB            Document 19         Filed 06/26/2006       Page 8 of 25\n\n\n\nplaintiff's interpretation of \u00a7 1981, but finds that plaintiff has alleged one contract denied to her\n\nwith sufficient specificity to support her claim.\n\n       In order to plead a claim of racial discrimination under \u00a7 1981, a plaintiff must allege that\n\n(1) the plaintiff is a member of a racial minority; (2) the defendant intended to discriminate\n\nagainst the plaintiff on the basis of race; and (3) the discrimination concerned an activity\n\nenumerated in \u00a7 1981. See Mian v. Donaldson, Lufkin & Jenrette Securities Corp., 7 F.3d 1085,\n\n1087 (2d Cir. 1993); Mitchell v. DCX, 274 F. Supp. 2d 33, 45 (D.D.C. 2003). See also White v.\n\nFlorida Highway Patrol, Div. of Florida Dep't of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles, 928 F.\n\nSupp. 1153, 1157 (M.D. Fla. 1996); Thomas v. St. Luke's Health Systems, Inc., 869 F. Supp.\n\n1413, 1432 (N.D. Iowa 1994), aff'd, 61 F.3d 908 (8th Cir. 1995).\n\n       Courts have looked to the body of case law analyzing \u00a7 1981 claims in employment\n\ndiscrimination cases to evaluate the viability of non-employment contract claims. See Mitchell,\n\n274 F. Supp. 2d at 45-46 (explaining that \"[t]he allocation of burdens in a \u00a7 1981 case is\n\ngoverned by the burden-shifting analysis created by McDonnell Douglas Corp. v. Green, 411\n\nU.S. 792 (1973),\" and applying those standards in non-employment refusal-to-contract context).\n\nUnder that case law, an inference of discrimination is created if the plaintiff is \"significantly\n\nbetter qualified for the job\" \u2013 or, here by analogy, the contract \u2013 than the less qualified candidate\n\nselected by the defendant. See Aka v. Washington Hosp. Center, 156 F.3d 1284, 1294 (D.C. Cir.\n\n1998) (en banc); see also Holbrook v. Reno, 196 F.3d 255, 261 (D.C. Cir. 1999) (evidence\n\ndemonstrating that similarly situated persons outside of protected class were treated more\n\nfavorably is sufficient to support inference of discrimination).\n\n       It is undisputed that plaintiff has pleaded facts sufficient to support the first element of\n\nthe prima facie case because she asserts that she is African-American. See Am. Compl. \u00b6 1. As\n\n                                                    8\n\f     Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB            Document 19         Filed 06/26/2006       Page 9 of 25\n\n\n\nto discriminatory intent, plaintiff has not presented any direct evidence, but has alleged facts\n\nsupporting an inference of discrimination. Specifically, she alleges that \"all such business\"\n\n(presumably including the May 2001 proposal) promised to her instead went to Craig Ott (a\n\nwhite male). See Am. Compl. \u00b6 45. Plaintiff also alleges that Ott's expertise and experience\n\nwere \"demonstrably inferior\" to hers. Id. \u00b6 59. Therefore, plaintiff has alleged facts sufficient to\n\nsupport an inference of discrimination.\n\n       In order to satisfy the third element of the prima facie case, the denial of an enumerated\n\nactivity, plaintiff alleges, among other things, that in May 2001, she brought a specific proposal\n\nto defendants in association with CAM Financial and defendants rejected it. See id. \u00b6 42.\n\nPlaintiff alleges that she \"secured the interest of several A-plus rated insurance companies and\n\nbrought an additional and significant proposal to [defendant] for doing specific mortgage-related\n\nbusiness.\" Id. Although the subject and scope of the proposed contract are unclear, this aspect\n\nof the complaint sufficiently identifies a contractual interest, and the denial of the right \"to\n\nmake\" a contract, so as to state a claim under \u00a7 1981. That said, plaintiff's May 2001 proposal is\n\nthe only contract alleged with enough specificity to state a claim under \u00a7 1981.4\n\n       Throughout her complaint, plaintiff alleges that defendants made general promises to do\n\nbusiness with her, but ultimately no contracts were achieved. See, e.g., id. \u00b6 22 (\"Mr. Hoyes\n\nreasonably assured in writing to Plaintiff Williams that Fannie Mae would do at least $1 billion\n\n\n       4\n         Plaintiff's counsel suggested at the motions hearing that defendants' actions at or after\nthe October 2003 meeting indicated another rejection of a contract proposed by plaintiff.\nHowever, plaintiff's allegations with regard to the October 2003 meeting do not refer to any\ncontract proposal, but rather allege only that \"[plaintiff] participated in a meeting in Washington,\nD.C. with certain officials of Fannie Mae,\" that plaintiff had \"prepared extensively\" for the\nmeeting, and that the subject of the meeting was \"the use of Captive Insurance Companies by\nFannie Mae<s Multifamily Division.\" See Am. Compl. \u00b6 51. These factual allegations are\ninsufficient to support an inference that plaintiff made a contract proposal.\n\n                                                   9\n\f    Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB            Document 19         Filed 06/26/2006       Page 10 of 25\n\n\n\nof insurance-based business in the next year through her, as a broker, and would utilize her\n\nservices in the years following . . . .\"); id. \u00b6 50 (\"Through this time [October 2003], while no\n\ncontracts had been achieved, Plaintiff Williams had been led to believe by the Defendants that\n\nsuch contracts would occur\"); id. \u00b6 55 (\"At all times from July 1, 1998, to the present,\n\n[defendants] have purposefully, intentionally, improperly, and willfully refused to do business\n\nwith Plaintiff\"). However, vague and conclusory allegations about the speculative loss of\n\nprospective business opportunities \u2013 in contrast to the actual loss of a specific potential\n\ncontractual interest \u2013 fail to allege the type of contractual interests enumerated in \u00a7 1981's\n\nprotection of the right \"to make and enforce contracts.\" Phelps v. Wichita Eagle-Beacon, 886\n\nF.2d 1262, 1267 (10th Cir. 1989) (\"Plaintiff has alleged that defendants' actions have interfered\n\nwith his 'prospective business opportunities'. . . . but we find that vague and conclusory\n\nallegation insufficient to state a deprivation of the right to make and enforce contracts that is\n\nprotected by \u00a7 1981\"); see also Gonzalez v. Ingersoll Mill. Mach. Co., 133 F.3d 1025, 1034 (7th\n\nCir. 1998) (holding that a laid-off at-will employee failed to state a claim under \u00a7 1981 because\n\nthere was no underlying \"contractual relationship\" at issue, a required element); Morris v. Office\n\nMax, Inc., 89 F.3d 411, 414 (7th Cir. 1996) (holding that a potential retail purchase is not\n\nenough to establish a contract under \u00a7 1981 where the store does not actually refuse to sell a\n\nspecific item; plaintiff's \"general interest in [the] merchandise\" is insufficient to implicate a\n\ncontractual interest). Thus, plaintiff's allegations of general promises and assurances by\n\ndefendants of a future business relationship or opportunities to do business do not identify a\n\ncontractual interest under \u00a7 1981.5 Accordingly, the Court grants in part and denies in part\n\n\n       5\n       At the motions hearing, plaintiff suggested that the Supreme Court's recent decision in\nDomino's Pizza, Inc. v. McDonald, 126 S. Ct. 1246 (2006), is instructive on the disposition of\n                                                                                    (continued...)\n\n                                                  10\n\f    Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 19         Filed 06/26/2006       Page 11 of 25\n\n\n\ndefendants' motion to dismiss the \u00a7 1981 claim (Count I), allowing it to proceed only as to the\n\nMay 2001 project.\n\n       C.      Retaliation Under 42 U.S.C. \u00a7 1981\n\n       Plaintiff alleges that the same course of conduct by defendants \u2013 that is, from July 1998\n\nto October 2003 \u2013 also constitutes unlawful retaliation for her prior protected civil rights\n\nactivities, including the filing of an EEO complaint prior to her June 1998 departure, in violation\n\nof \u00a7 1981. Before evaluating the sufficiency of plaintiff's allegations, the Court pauses to note\n\nthe scarcity of law in this area. The Court's review of the case law indicates that the vast\n\nmajority of \u00a7 1981 retaliation claims have arisen in the employment context. As one court has\n\naptly noted, there are few cases addressing \u00a7 1981 discrimination claims outside of the\n\nemployment context, and \"even fewer cases dealing with the question of retaliation outside the\n\nemployment context under \u00a7 1981.\" See Benton v. Cousins Properties, Inc., 230 F. Supp. 2d\n\n1351, 1370, 1381 (N.D. Ga. 2002), aff'd, 97 Fed. Appx. 904 (11th Cir. 2004). Thus, one must\n\nextrapolate the pertinent elements of the McDonnell Douglas analysis to a \u00a7 1981 retaliation\n\nclaim. Id. at 1370.\n\n\n\n\n       5\n         (...continued)\nher claim. Domino's addressed whether a non-party to a contract may bring an action under \u00a7\n1981 in the context of a shareholder's relationship to the contracting corporate party. See id. at\n1250. The Supreme Court's discussion of the standards applicable to \u00a7 1981 are fully consistent\nwith the disposition reached above. See id. The Court reiterated the well-established principle\nthat \"a contractual relationship need not already exist, because \u00a7 1981 protects the would-be\ncontractor along with those who already have made contracts,\" a principle that underlies the\ndecision today. Id. at 1249-50. At the same time, it emphasized that the focus of \u00a7 1981,\nincluding after the 1991 amendments, is on a \"contractual relationship,\" either existing or\n\"proposed\" (id. at 1250), which, as discussed above, is distinct from speculative prospective\nbusiness opportunities.\n\n                                                 11\n\f    Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 19         Filed 06/26/2006       Page 12 of 25\n\n\n\n        In order to make a prima facie case for retaliation under \u00a7 1981 in the employment\n\ncontext, plaintiff must show that: (1) she engaged in statutorily protected activity; (2) she\n\nsuffered an adverse employment action; and (3) there is at least an inference of causation\n\nbetween the two. See Carney v. American Univ., 151 F.3d 1090, 1094-95 (D.C. Cir. 1998)\n\n(assuming without deciding that \u00a7 1981 authorizes a claim for retaliation, and applying the\n\ntraditional three-part test used in employment cases).6 Extrapolating these elements to a non-\n\nemployment, commercial setting, the elements would be substantially the same, except that\n\ninstead of an adverse employment action, plaintiff must show an adverse decision in the making\n\nof a contract.\n\n        Plaintiff alleges that she engaged in statutorily protected activity before leaving Fannie\n\nMae. See Am. Compl. \u00b6 19. She also alleges that defendants took action adverse to her by\n\ndenying her contracting rights under \u00a7 1981 when she proposed the May 2001 contract.\n\nHowever, plaintiff does not allege facts sufficient to show a causal connection between her\n\nstatutorily-protected activity and defendants' alleged rejection of her May 2001 proposal.\n\nInstead, plaintiff relies solely on the temporal proximity of events to support causation. It is true\n\nthat causation may be construed from \"close temporal proximity\" between the protected action\n\nand the act of discrimination (or alleged retaliation). See Childs-Pierce v. Utility Workers Union\n\nof Am., 383 F. Supp. 2d 60, 76 (D.D.C. 2005) (holding that nine weeks suffices as close\n\ntemporal proximity for retaliation claim under \u00a7 1981). Although the case law is mixed with\n\nregard to how close temporal proximity must be to support an inference of causation, under the\n\nrelevant case law, temporal proximity refers to a period of weeks or months -- not a period of\n\n\n        6\n         This Court also assumes without deciding that a retaliation claim is authorized under \u00a7\n1981. Defendants have not raised the issue, and as explained in this opinion, the Court will\ndismiss the claim on other grounds.\n\n                                                 12\n\f     Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 19         Filed 06/26/2006       Page 13 of 25\n\n\n\nyears. See id.; see also Mitchell v. Baldrige, 759 F.2d 80, 86-87 (D.C. Cir. 1985) (holding that\n\nthree months is sufficient for temporal proximity); Castle v. Bentsen, 867 F. Supp. 1, 3 (D.D.C.\n\n1994) (holding that three to five months is sufficient); Kipp v. Missouri Highway & Transp.\n\nComm'n, 280 F.3d 893, 897 (8th Cir. 2002) (holding that two months is not sufficient).\n\n       Here, plaintiff alleges that she engaged in statutorily protected activity before she left\n\nFannie Mae in June 1998 and that defendants did not take adverse action until May 2001, just\n\nover three years later. See Am. Compl. \u00b6\u00b6 19, 42. A three-year period between the protected\n\nactivity and the adverse contract decision is too long under any standard to support an inference\n\nof causation. Therefore, the Court concludes that plaintiff has not established a prima facie case\n\nof retaliation under \u00a7 1981. Because plaintiff failed to plead facts sufficient to support her\n\nretaliation claim, defendants' motion to dismiss this claim is granted.\n\nD.     Conspiracy Under 42 U.S.C. \u00a7 1985(3)7\n\n\n       Plaintiff's third claim against defendants alleges that they engaged in a conspiracy in\n\nviolation of 42 U.S.C. \u00a7 1985(3) to discriminate and retaliate against her in the making and\n\nenforcing of contracts, based on the same course of conduct alleged in support of her \u00a7 1981\n\nclaims. Defendants move to dismiss on the ground that the only conspiracy alleged is that\n\nbetween Fannie Mae and two of its officers, which fails to state a claim for a conspiracy under\n\nthe intracorporate conspiracy doctrine.\n\n\n\n\n       7\n          Defendants' contention that a heightened pleading standard applies to \u00a7 1985 claims is\nin error. This Circuit has firmly rejected heightened pleading requirements in \u00a7 1981 cases and\nits reasoning applies with equal force to \u00a7 1985 claims. See Sparrow v. United Airlines, Inc.,\n216 F.3d 1111, 1115 (D.C. Cir. 2000) (\"as the Supreme Court held in Leatherman, this\n[dismissal under Rule 12(b)(6)] may not be accomplished by employing heightened pleading\nstandards except in those cases specifically listed in Federal Rule 9(b)\").\n\n                                                 13\n\f    Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 19         Filed 06/26/2006       Page 14 of 25\n\n\n\n       In order to sufficiently plead a conspiracy claim under \u00a7 1985, plaintiff must allege that:\n\n(1) the conspiracy involved two or more persons; (2) the conspiracy is for the purpose of\n\ndepriving (directly or indirectly) someone or a group of people of the equal protection of the\n\nlaws; (3) there has been an overt act in furtherance of the conspiracy; and (4) plaintiff has been\n\ndeprived of her rights. See Brown v. Sim, No. 03-2655, 2005 WL 3276190 at *3 (D.D.C. Sept.\n\n30, 2005) (citing Great American Federal Sav. & Loan Ass\u2019n v. Novotny, 442 U.S. 366, 373\n\n(1979)); see also Love v. Bolinger, 927 F. Supp. 1131, 1139 (S.D. Ind. 1996); Greene v. Hawes,\n\n913 F. Supp. 136, 144 (N.D.N.Y. 1996).\n\n       Of these elements, the one dispositive here is the requirement that the conspiracy involve\n\ntwo or more persons. Generally, the law does not recognize a conspiracy between a corporation\n\nand its agents. See McAndrew v. Lockheed Martin Corp., 206 F.3d 1031, 1036 (11th Cir. 2000).\n\nAccordingly, under the \"intracorporate conspiracy doctrine,\"\n\n               because a company cannot conspire with itself, the officers and\n               directors of a corporation generally cannot be held liable under \u00a7\n               1985(3) for actions taken in concert with one another . . . . Instead,\n               the relevant inquiry is whether the acts of the defendants were in\n               fact taken on behalf of the corporation, each acting within the\n               scope of their employment, or instead were taken solely for\n               personal, nonbusiness motivations.\n\n\nWeaver v. Gross, 605 F. Supp. 210, 214-15 (D.D.C. 1985) (holding that an intracorporate\n\nconspiracy may only exist when the employees act outside the scope of their employment); see\n\nalso Brown, 2005 WL 3276190, at *4; Cross v. General Motors Corp., 721 F.2d 1152, 1156 (8th\n\nCir. 1983); Brace v. Ohio State Univ., 866 F. Supp. 1069, 1075 (S.D. Ohio 1994).\n\n       In order to claim civil conspiracy against a corporation, plaintiff must allege facts in her\n\ncomplaint suggesting that the officers of Fannie Mae were acting outside the scope of their\n\n\n\n                                                 14\n\f    Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 19         Filed 06/26/2006       Page 15 of 25\n\n\n\nemployment. See Norkol/Fibercore, Inc. v. Gubb, 279 F. Supp. 2d 993, 1000 (E.D. Wis. 2003)\n\n(dismissing conspiracy claim because of failure to allege that corporate employees were pursuing\n\npersonal interests); see also Bremiller v. Cleveland Psychiatric Inst., 879 F. Supp. 782, 789 (N.D.\n\nOhio 1995) (holding that the plaintiff pleaded facts sufficient to show employees were acting\n\noutside the scope of employment). Plaintiff does not allege in her complaint that defendants\n\nLawch and Huebscher were acting outside the scope of their employment. As counsel for\n\nplaintiff candidly acknowledged at the motions hearing, plaintiff alleges just the opposite \u2013 that\n\nLawch and Huebscher acted within the scope of their employment \u2013 so that plaintiff may be able\n\nto recover against Fannie Mae. See Mot. Hrg. Tr. at 27. Because no factual allegations of the\n\ncomplaint support an inference that Lawch and Huebscher acted outside the scope of their\n\nemployment, the alleged conspiracy among the corporation and its agents is insufficient and\n\ndefendants' motion to dismiss this claim is granted.\n\n       E.      Tortious Interference with the Reasonable Expectation of Prospective\n               Economic Advantage\n\n\n       Plaintiff's fourth claim against defendants alleges that they tortiously interfered in her\n\nbusiness relationships with third parties by making knowingly false and defamatory statements\n\nabout her. To state a prima facie case for tortious interference with a business relationship or\n\nreasonable expectation of prospective economic advantage, a plaintiff must allege: (1) a valid\n\nbusiness relationship or expectancy with a third party; (2) knowledge of the relationship or\n\nexpectancy on the part of the defendant; (3) intentional interference by the defendant, causing a\n\nbreach or termination of the relationship or expectancy; and (4) resultant damage. See Bennett\n\nEnter., Inc. v. Domino's Pizza, Inc., 45 F.3d 493, 499 (D.C. Cir. 1995) (holding that all four\n\nelements must be met in order to bring tortious interference with prospective economic\n\n\n                                                 15\n\f    Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB            Document 19         Filed 06/26/2006       Page 16 of 25\n\n\n\nadvantage claim). Defendants move to dismiss on the ground that plaintiff fails to identify any\n\nvalid business relationships or any conduct amounting to intentional interference under the law,\n\nand furthermore, that no termination of a business expectancy is alleged.\n\n       As to the threshold element of a valid business relationship, the amended complaint casts\n\na wide net but ultimately identifies only one such relationship \u2013 that with CAM Financial\n\nconcerning a co-brokerage agreement. See Am. Compl. \u00b6 61. Aside from this allegation,\n\nplaintiff does not specifically name any other third parties with which she had a business\n\nrelationship or expectancy; plaintiff instead alleges that defendants interfered with other\n\nunspecified relationships between plaintiff and \"various lenders and customers of Fannie Mae\"\n\nand \"Fannie Mae consultants, brokers, lenders and customers and their representatives.\" Am.\n\nCompl. \u00b6\u00b6 60, 61. Because her intent to work with CAM Financial is the only expectancy that\n\nplaintiff specifically alleges, it is the only relationship that conceivably can support her tortious\n\ninterference claim.\n\n       Defendants contend that even the relationship with CAM Financial is too unilateral to\n\nsupport a claim of a valid business relationship or expectancy. It is well-established that \"[a]\n\nprotected relationship exists only if there is a reasonable likelihood or probability that a contract\n\nwould have resulted; there must be something beyond a mere hope.\" Klein v. Grynberg, 44 F.3d\n\n1497, 1506 (10th Cir. 1995); see also Ellsworth Assocs. v. United States, 917 F. Supp. 841, 850\n\n(D.D.C. 1996). Construing the complaint in the light most favorable to plaintiff, the Court\n\nconcludes that she has satisfied this standard. Plaintiff alleges that she intended to work with\n\nCAM Financial under a co-brokerage agreement as part of her business plan, and that she had a\n\nbusiness history with CAM Financial, including a past joint venture. See Am Compl. \u00b6 32.\n\n\n\n\n                                                  16\n\f    Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 19        Filed 06/26/2006       Page 17 of 25\n\n\n\nThese factual allegations indicate that it was reasonably likely that a co-brokerage contract\n\nwould have resulted.\n\n       Defendants contend that this claim nonetheless fails because plaintiff fails to allege facts\n\nsupporting an inference of intentional interference. Defendants correctly note that a general\n\nintent to interfere is not enough; there must be a \"strong showing of intent\" in order to make a\n\nprima facie case for tortious interference. Bennett, 45 F.3d at 499; see Genetic Sys. Corp. v.\n\nAbbott Labs., 691 F. Supp. 407, 423 (D.D.C. 1988). However, a plaintiff who alleges slander on\n\nthe part of the defendant sufficiently asserts this strong showing of intent. Genetic Sys. Corp.,\n\n691 F. Supp. at 423 (\"A competitor\u2019s conduct must be more egregious . . . . it must involve libel,\n\nslander, physical coercion, fraud, misrepresentation, or disparagement.\") (citing Business Equip.\n\nCtr., Ltd. v. DeJur-Amsco Corp., 465 F. Supp. 775, 788 (D.D.C. 1978)). In this case, plaintiff\n\nalleges that defendants communicated \"knowingly false and defamatory information\" against\n\nplaintiff to companies associated with her, including CAM Financial. Am. Compl. \u00b6 62.\n\nAccordingly, the Court concludes that plaintiff pleads facts sufficient to support this element.\n\n       The elements of termination and resultant damage are easily met and require little\n\ndiscussion. Plaintiff pleads that defendants' interference caused a breach or termination of her\n\nexpected co-brokerage contract with CAM Financial. See id. \u00b6 64. In addition, plaintiff alleges\n\nresulting damages with specificity: she claims loss \"in an amount in excess of $35,000,000 as a\n\ndirect result of lost co-brokerage commissions with CAM Financial.\" Id. \u00b6 67. Accordingly, the\n\nCourt concludes that plaintiff's claim of tortious interference with a business relationship may\n\nproceed with respect to her alleged relationship with CAM Financial only, but not in any other\n\nrespect.\n\n\n\n\n                                                17\n\f    Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 19        Filed 06/26/2006       Page 18 of 25\n\n\n\n       F.      Intentional Infliction of Emotional Distress\n\n       Plaintiff's final claim against defendants alleges that their course of conduct from July\n\n1998 to October 2003 constitutes intentional infliction of emotional distress. To support a claim\n\nfor this tort, the alleged conduct must be \"so outrageous in character, and so extreme in degree,\n\nas to go beyond all possible bounds of decency.\" Duncan v. Children's Nat'l Med. Ctr., 702 A.2d\n\n207, 211 (D.C. 1997) (quoting District of Columbia v. Thompson, 570 A.2d 277, 290 (D.C.\n\n1990), vacated on other grounds, 593 A.2d 621 (D.C. 1991)); see Wise v. District of Columbia,\n\nCase No. 03-cv-310, 2005 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 6361, at *16 (D.D.C. Mar. 21, 2005); Hoffman v.\n\nHill & Knowlton, Inc., 777 F. Supp. 1003, 1005 (D.D.C. 1991). More specifically, a plaintiff\n\nmust allege \"(1) extreme and outrageous conduct on the part of the defendant which (2)\n\nintentionally or recklessly (3) causes the plaintiff severe emotional distress.\" Duncan, 702 A.2d\n\nat 211 (quoting Drejza v. Vaccaro, 650 A.2d 1308, 1312 (D.C. 1994)); accord, Sturdza v. United\n\nArab Emirates, 281 F.3d 1287, 1305 (D.C. Cir. 2002) (citing Howard Univ. v. Best, 484 A.2d\n\n958, 985 (D.C. 1984)).\n\n       Plaintiff highlights defendants' \"active, conspiratorial, malicious and secretive attempts to\n\ncurtail or terminate Plaintiff Williams's prospective and ongoing business relationships\" and their\n\nefforts to damage her personal and business reputation all during a period when they gave false\n\nappearances of intending to do business with her. Am. Compl. \u00b6 83. The conduct alleged fails,\n\nas a matter of law, to rise to the level of extreme and outrageous conduct under District of\n\nColumbia law. Conduct must be truly outrageous to make a prima facie case for intentional\n\ninfliction of emotional distress. See Browning v. Clinton, 292 F.3d 235, 248 (D.C. Cir. 2002)\n\n(holding insults uttered at a press conference and threats insufficient to withstand dismissal of\n\nintentional infliction of emotional distress claim); Thompson, 570 A.2d at 290 (holding that\n\n                                                 18\n\f      Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 19          Filed 06/26/2006       Page 19 of 25\n\n\n\nrepeated criticisms of employee, misrepresentations, refusal to promote, physical pushing and\n\nverbal threats, and ultimately, termination of employment did not rise to level of outrageous\n\nconduct); Tiefenbacher v. Am. Ass'n of Retired Persons, No. 05-1802-CKK, 2006 WL 1126841,\n\nat *2-3 (D.D.C. Apr. 27, 2006) (holding wrongful discharge and retaliation not enough to state a\n\nclaim for intentional infliction of emotional distress).\n\n        Plaintiff essentially alleges that defendants refused to contract with her because of her\n\nrace and engaged in a campaign to prevent others from doing business with her. Even taking\n\ndefendants' alleged misrepresentations into account, their alleged conduct is not atrocious and\n\noutside the bounds of civilized society under District of Columbia law. In the commercial arena\n\nand elsewhere, it is commonplace that sought-after contracts fail to materialize for illegitimate\n\nreasons and that other parties engage in misrepresentation, renege on promises, and seek to take\n\nbusiness away from others. While such conduct may support other causes of action (such as\n\nplaintiff's \u00a7 1981 claim), it does not rise to the level of outrageous behavior required to support a\n\nclaim for intentional infliction of emotional distress. Accordingly, the Court grants defendants'\n\nmotion to dismiss this claim.\n\nII.     Plaintiff's Rule 56(f) Motion for a Continuance to Permit Discovery in Aid of\n        Opposition to Summary Judgment\n\n        Defendants have moved for summary judgment on the ground that all of plaintiff's claims\n\nare time-barred. In this case, the statute of limitations is three years for both the \u00a7 1981 claim\n\nand the tortious interference claim.8 See Carney, 151 F.3d at 1095 (holding that claims under \u00a7\n\n\n        8\n          At the motions hearing, plaintiff raised the issue of whether 28 U.S.C. \u00a7 1658 -- the\ncatch-all four year statute of limitations for civil actions arising under federal statutes enacted\nafter December 1, 1990 -- applies to her \u00a7 1981 claim, in light of Jones v. R.R. Donnelly & Sons\nCo., 541 U.S. 369 (2004). The Court concludes that the three-year statute of limitations\n                                                                                          (continued...)\n\n                                                  19\n\f    Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB            Document 19         Filed 06/26/2006        Page 20 of 25\n\n\n\n1981 have a three-year statute of limitations); Beard v. Edmondson & Gallagher, 790 A.2d 541,\n\n546 (D.C. 2002) (holding the same for tortious interference). Defendants' motion is based on\n\ntheir contention that plaintiff's undisputed deposition testimony in another case establishes that\n\nshe knew or should have known that she had a cause of action on or about June 4, 2001, when\n\nshe read the May 31, 2001, e-mail indicating that she would not receive the contract she sought.\n\nIn that testimony, plaintiff states that, after reading the e-mail, \"it was clear that [defendant\n\nFannie Mae] was not going to do business with [her].\" Defs.' Mot. for Summ. J. at 3 (quoting\n\nEx. E, Marialice Williams Dep. at 91 (Mar. 17, 2003)).9 In response, plaintiff moves for a\n\ncontinuance to permit discovery in aid of her opposition to summary judgment pursuant to Fed.\n\nR. Civ. P. 56(f).\n\n\n\n\n        8\n         (...continued)\ndiscussed above is not affected by that decision. In Jones, the Supreme Court held that the\ncatch-all four-year statute of limitations applies to a federal claim \"if the plaintiff's claim against\nthe defendant was made possible by a post-1990 enactment\" \u2013 there, the 1991 amendments to\n\u00a7 1981 Id. at 382 (emphasis added). Thus, \u00a7 1981 claims authorized pre-1991 would continue\nto be subject to limitations periods borrowed from local law, while claims arising under the 1991\namendments would be subject to the \u00a7 1658 catch-all period. See id. at 384-85 & n.18 (noting\nthat lower courts would be \"required to determine whether the plaintiff has alleged a violation of\nthe relevant statute as it stood prior to December 1, 1990, or whether her claims necessarily\ndepend on a subsequent amendment\" in order to decide which statute of limitations is\napplicable). Plaintiff's \u00a7 1981 claim is authorized by the pre-1991 version of \u00a7 1981 because it\nconcerns only pre-formation contractual issues, rather than the category of post-formation\nconduct covered by the 1991 amendments. See Domino's Pizza, Inc., 126 S. Ct. at 1250. As\nsuch, it remains appropriate to borrow the limitations period from local law.\n        9\n            Defendants quote other excerpts of the deposition to similar effect. For example,\nplaintiff stated that \"it was clear from [the e-mail dated May 31, 2001] that [defendants] were not\ndoing anything but taking my time and attention and using that with other people.\" Id., quoting\nWilliams Dep. at 88. Plaintiff also noted that when she received the e-mail, she knew she was\n\"being screwed\" and that it was clear to her that she was \"not going to be given the same\nopportunity as everyone else\" to do business with defendants. Id. at 4, quoting Williams Dep. at\n94, 121.\n\n                                                  20\n\f    Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 19         Filed 06/26/2006        Page 21 of 25\n\n\n\n       In order to prevail, plaintiff must show what facts she \"intend[s] to discover that would\n\ncreate a triable issue\" and why she cannot yet produce them. See Byrd v. United States EPA,\n\n174 F.3d 239, 248 n. 8 (D.C. Cir.1999) (citing Hotel & Restaurant Employees Union, Local 25\n\nv. Attorney Gen. of the United States, 804 F.2d 1256, 1259 (D.C. Cir. 1986), vacated on other\n\ngrounds, 808 F.2d 847 (D.C. Cir. 1987)); see also Gualandi v. Adams, 385 F.3d 236, 244 (2d\n\nCir. 2004) (holding that every Rule 56(f) motion must include (1) the nature of the uncompleted\n\ndiscovery; (2) an explanation of how the facts sought are reasonably expected to create a genuine\n\nissue of material fact; (3) a showing that the plaintiff made efforts to obtain these facts by other\n\nmeans; and (4) why these efforts were not successful).\n\n       To create a triable fact over a statute of limitations issue, a plaintiff may show that the\n\ndefendant engaged in subsequent misrepresentation, tolling the statute of limitations. See Sprint\n\nCommc'ns Co., L.P. v. F.C.C, 76 F.3d 1221, 1226 (D.C. Cir. 1996) (\"If, however, the plaintiff\n\ndid not discover the injury because the defendant fraudulently concealed material facts related to\n\nits wrongdoing, then the court will deem the cause of action not to have accrued during the\n\nperiod of such concealment \u2013 unless the defendant shows that the plaintiff would have\n\ndiscovered the fraud with the exercise of due diligence.\"); see also Richards v. Mileski, 662 F.2d\n\n65, 70 (D.C. Cir. 1981) (same). Here, plaintiff alleges that defendants engaged in\n\nmisrepresentations and fraud after denying her the May 2001 proposal, and she casts such\n\nconduct as lying at the heart of her case. See Pl.'s Mot. for Continuance at 3-5. Plaintiff alleges\n\nthat, after June 2001, defendants provided \"continuing encouragement\" with regard to\n\nprospective business opportunities, participated in business development efforts with her, and\n\nthrough those and similar actions, led her to believe that she would be rewarded with business\n\ncontracts, all the while knowing that they would not accept any contracts from her. Id. If\n\n\n                                                 21\n\f    Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB            Document 19         Filed 06/26/2006       Page 22 of 25\n\n\n\nplaintiff can demonstrate that defendants continued to promise other business opportunities to\n\nher, then a trier of fact could reasonably conclude that she could not have been aware of any\n\nracially discriminatory intent on the part of defendants in rejecting her May 2001 proposal.\n\n       The conundrum here is that there is a disconnect between the facts plaintiff seeks to\n\nprove and the discovery sought. Plaintiff seeks full access to documents from the CAM\n\nFinancial litigation, CAM Financial Servs., Inc. v. General Star National Ins. Co., Fannie Mae, et\n\nal., No. 1:01-cv-314-LG-JMR (S.D. Miss.), which defendant has relied on in part to support its\n\nmotion for summary judgment.10 However, it is unclear how these documents would establish\n\nthe misrepresentations and deceit alleged by plaintiff. In order to create a triable issue, plaintiff\n\nmust discover evidence of defendants' attempts to hide its unlawful discriminatory intentions\n\nafter June 2001. But plaintiff never explains why the documents in the CAM Financial litigation\n\nwould reveal such facts; her counsel only makes the conclusory statement that the documents\n\nwould do so.\n\n               Those documents would facilitate our response to the motion for\n               summary judgment and our ability to show that material facts are\n               in dispute, notwithstanding Defendants' claims in their Motion, as\n               to the following: when they refused to do business, when Plaintiff\n               should have known such, and when the statute of limitations began\n               running. What we are seeking to demonstrate further, as already\n               alleged in the amended complaint, [is] that Fannie Mae continued\n               at least through October 2003, in a serious manner intended to be\n               believed by Plaintiff, in business development with her. It was not\n               until thereafter that Fannie Mae made clear in their actions against\n               Plaintiff that they would not do business with her. Such\n               demonstration clearly would create a material issue of fact in\n               dispute . . . .\n\n\n\n\n       10\n         These documents are unavailable directly from that court because they were destroyed\nby Hurricane Katrina.\n\n                                                  22\n\f     Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 19           Filed 06/26/2006     Page 23 of 25\n\n\n\nPl.'s Motion for Rule 56(f) Continuance, Lederer Aff. \u00b6 G. There is little description of what the\n\nCAM Financial litigation is about and why it would be relevant. What little there is suggests\n\nthat the documents requested by plaintiff would not be relevant to any fraudulent conduct by\n\ndefendants after June 2001. Plaintiff states that she was a key player in the litigation and that the\n\ncase involved business transactions similar to those in which she has expertise, but she fails to\n\nexplain how that is relevant to her allegations of fraud:\n\n               The entire CAM Financial docket sheet does indeed have\n               numerous personal references to Plaintiff Williams. The subject\n               matter of that case also addressed promises by Defendant Fannie\n               Mae regarding complex business transactions of a nature of those\n               which had been conducted by Plaintiff Williams while at Fannie\n               Mae prior to her departure, and for which she was qualified to\n               conduct following her departure from Fannie Mae.\n\n\nId. at 7.\n\n        Moreover, the complaint and amended complaint in that litigation were filed on August\n\n3, 2001, and December 20, 2001, respectively, indicating that the conduct at issue is in the 2001\n\ntime frame or earlier. See Doc. Nos. 1 and 37 in CAM Financial Servs., Inc., supra.11 But the\n\nmisrepresentations plaintiff seeks to prove extend far beyond those dates. It is thus apparent to\n\nthe Court that there is likely to be discoverable information relevant to the misrepresentations\n\nalleged and their possible impact on the statute of limitations \u2013 e.g., testimony from defendants\n\nLawch and Huebscher, their internal e-mails, and e-mails from those defendants to third parties\n\nsuch as Craig Ott. But it is also apparent that the litigation is not necessarily the repository of\n\nthis information. Something close to full discovery in this case would be necessary to produce\n\n\n\n\n        11\n         Plaintiff filed the docket sheet from this litigation as an exhibit in support of its Rule\n56(f) motion after the motions hearing.\n\n                                                  23\n\f    Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 19         Filed 06/26/2006       Page 24 of 25\n\n\n\nthat information because the issues related to the statute of limitations are closely intertwined\n\nwith the merits.\n\n       Whether plaintiff ultimately can prove the alleged misrepresentations remains to be seen.\n\nBut under these circumstances, she should be given the chance to do so pursuant to Rule 56(f).\n\nSee Chappell-Johnson v. Powell, 440 F.3d 484, 488 (D.C. Cir. 2006) (noting that \"before\n\ndiscovery has unearthed relevant facts and evidence, it may be difficult to define the precise\n\nformulation\" of a party's proof, and ordering that discovery be allowed to proceed based on\n\ncounsel's affidavit describing the facts that it intended to produce during discovery) (citations\n\nomitted). The Court will therefore grant plaintiff's motion for a Rule 56(f) continuance, and\n\ndeny defendants' motion for summary judgment without prejudice.12\n\n                                         CONCLUSION\n\n       For the foregoing reasons, the Court grants defendants' motion to dismiss plaintiff's\n\nclaims of retaliation under \u00a7 1981 (Count II), civil conspiracy under \u00a7 1985 (Count III), and\n\nintentional infliction of emotional distress (Count V). The Court grants in part and denies in part\n\ndefendants' motion to dismiss Counts I and IV. Plaintiff's claim of race discrimination under 42\n\nU.S.C. \u00a7 1981 (Count I) may proceed only with respect to her claim that defendants unlawfully\n\nrejected her May 2001 proposal. Her claim of tortious interference with business relationships\n\nor prospective economic advantage (Count IV) may proceed only with respect to defendants'\n\n\n\n\n       12\n           It bears noting that defendants' evidence in support of summary judgment does not\naddress when the statute of limitations began running on plaintiff's claim of tortious interference\nwith business relationships. There is no information in the record as to plaintiff's anticipated co-\nbrokerage agreement with CAM Financial and, thus, defendants' motion for summary judgment\non this claim would be denied without prejudice in any event.\n\n                                                 24\n\f    Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 19         Filed 06/26/2006       Page 25 of 25\n\n\n\nalleged tortious interference with the CAM Financial co-brokerage agreement. Those claims are\n\ndismissed in all other respects.\n\n         The Court grants plaintiff's Rule 56(f) motion for a continuance to permit discovery in\n\naid of plaintiff's opposition to summary judgment and denies defendants' motion for summary\n\njudgment without prejudice. Full discovery shall proceed in accordance with the Federal Rules\n\nof Civil Procedure and the Local Civil Rules of the Court following the filing of defendants'\n\nanswer to the amended complaint. A separate order will be issued herewith.\n\n\n\n\n                                                             /s/\n                                                     JOHN D. BATES\n                                                 United States District Judge\n\nDated:    June 26, 2006\n\nCopies to:\n\nMichael W. Beasley\n411 East Broad St.\nFalls Church, VA 22046\nEmail: beasleys@erols.com\n\nBrian J.H. Lederer\n3003 Van Ness St., NW\nSuite W228\nWashington, DC 20008\n\nEvelyn L. Becker\nSarah Alexander Goldfrank\nO'Melveny & Myers, LLP\n1625 Eye St., NW\nWashington, DC 20006\nEmail: ebecker@omm.com, sgoldfrank@omm.com\n\n\n\n                                                 25\n\f","ocr_status":2,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:44:36-07:00","document_number":"19","attachment_number":null,"pacer_doc_id":"04501769184","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":true,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":1,"description":"Memorandum & Opinion","acms_document_guid":""}],"date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.416628-07:00","date_modified":"2024-11-12T08:06:02.898684-08:00","date_filed":"2006-06-26","time_filed":null,"entry_number":19,"recap_sequence_number":"2006-06-26.001","pacer_sequence_number":92,"description":"MEMORANDUM OPINION.  Signed by Judge John D. Bates on 6/26/2006. (CK)","tags":[]},{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/docket-entries/3579923/","id":3579923,"docket":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/dockets/4202584/","recap_documents":[{"resource_uri":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/recap-documents/2686720/","id":2686720,"tags":[],"absolute_url":"/docket/4202584/18/williams-v-fannie-mae/","date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.409412-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:08.871678-08:00","sha1":"333246326179eb9925d455a304a672bcc0880ba0","page_count":6,"file_size":23241,"filepath_local":"recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.18.0.pdf","filepath_ia":"https://www.archive.org/download/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226/gov.uscourts.dcd.116226.18.0.pdf","ia_upload_failure_count":null,"thumbnail":null,"thumbnail_status":0,"plain_text":"  Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 18         Filed 12/24/2005       Page 1 of 6\n\n\n\n                         UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\n                         FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA\n\n____________________________________\n                                    )\nMARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS, )\n                                    )\n      Plaintiff,                    )\n                                    )\n      v.                            )                 Civil Action No. 1:05cv01483\n                                    )\nFEDERAL NATIONAL MORTGAGE )                                 Judge John D. Bates\n      ASSOCIATION, et al.,          )\n                                    )\n      Defendants.                   )\n____________________________________)\n\n           PLAINTIFF\u2019S REPLY TO DEFENDANTS\u2019 OPPOSITION\n      TO PLAINTIFF\u2019S CIVIL RULE 56(f) MOTION FOR CONTINUANCE\n\n       Comes Now, Marialice Bathrus Williams, by and through her undersigned\n\ncounsel, and hereby files this Reply to the Defendants\u2019 Opposition to her Motion for\n\nContinuance to complete discovery under Civil Rule 56(f).\n\n       Plaintiff\u2019s Amended Complaint alleges in reasonable detail the facts,\n\ncircumstances and events by Defendants which occurred continuously through at least\n\nOctober 2003, and which resulted in the Plaintiff\u2019s specific claims for relief as further\n\nstated in the Amended Complaint. It is Plaintiff\u2019s position that Defendants\u2019 actions,\n\nstatements, and representations giving rise to Plaintiff\u2019s claims for relief continued at\n\nleast through October 2003, and further that only after that time period was it clearly\n\nestablished that Defendants had cemented their concerted, unlawful and retaliatory\n\nrefusals to transact business with Plaintiff.\n\n       Defendants\u2019 Motion for Summary Judgment reiterates arguments set forth in\n\nDefendants\u2019 pending Motion to Dismiss the Amended Complaint in attacking the\n\n\n\n\n                                                1\n\f  Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 18         Filed 12/24/2005       Page 2 of 6\n\n\n\nAmended Complaint based upon Statute of Limitations arguments. This collateral\n\nMotion for Summary Judgment utilizes for primary support one component of exhaustive\n\ndiscovery records in a prior Federal Civil Action brought by Cam Financial against\n\nDefendant Fannie Mae, an extract of the deposition testimony of Plaintiff Williams in\n\nthat litigation. The assertion made by the Defendants in their summary judgment motion\n\nis that this limited and selective testimony overrides the totality of facts, circumstances\n\nand claims set forth in the Amended Complaint, and demonstrates conclusively that there\n\nis no element of Plaintiff\u2019s case in this docket which may survive.\n\n       That one chosen segment of \u201cevidence\u201d as used by the Defendants in their\n\nsummary judgment efforts is part of four days of depositions which Plaintiff was\n\nsubjected to in the Cam litigation, in which Ms. Williams was not a party. Specifically,\n\nthe deposition testimony selected by Defendants concerns Ms. Williams\u2019 comments\n\nregarding a single e-mail communication between Defendants Richard Lawch and Grace\n\nHuepscher, now principals in the matters at issue in the Amended Complaint.\n\n       While Plaintiff Williams does not contest that this segment of her past deposition\n\ntestimony may be of some relevance to this Court\u2019s Statute of Limitations determination\n\nin her instant case, she also is aware that there is much more support for her position\n\nwhich is available through the normal course of discovery. At least some of this support\n\nis likely to be found by a non-biased search of the Cam litigation records which were not\n\nselected for use by the Defendants in their current Motion for Summary Judgment.\n\n       Plaintiff\u2019s Rule 56(f) motion for discovery states, with support of an affidavit, that\n\nthe self-selected and limited evidentiary claims of Defendants in support of their\n\nsummary judgment motion are presented out-of-context, and that further evidence\n\n\n\n\n                                              2\n\f  Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 18         Filed 12/24/2005       Page 3 of 6\n\n\n\navailable from the same source would demonstrate material issues of fact in dispute, and\n\nsubstantially stand in favor of the allegations in the Amended Complaint as to when the\n\ntime for bringing process would have commenced (i.e. during or after October 2003).\n\n       Plaintiff\u2019s Civil Rule 56(f) motion highlights the preference in the law that clearly\n\nstates the a Court must afford reasonable opportunity to develop and establish material\n\nissues of fact in dispute, particularly regarding a dispositive summary judgment motion\n\nfiled prior to any discovery conducted in a case. Plaintiff has not yet been afforded that\n\nopportunity in this case.\n\n       Plaintiff\u2019s discovery sought in her motion would be focused and limited for the\n\npurposes of a Rule 56(f) motion. Further discovery efforts would concentrate on\n\nobtaining and reviewing the following: (1) The existing depositions of Defendant\u2019s\n\nLawch and Huepscher in the cited Cam litigation docket; (2) Obtaining and reviewing\n\nPlaintiff\u2019s Williams full four days of depositions in the Cam litigation (not those portions\n\nmerely extracted by Defendants for their use); and (3) Obtaining previously provided\n\nCam discovery concerning the relevant communications regarding any communications\n\nwith or about Ms. Williams made by Defendants or other agents or employees of Fannie\n\nMae during the period just prior to and following Ms. Williams departure from the\n\nAgency. This portion of the discovery being sought by Plaintiff Williams is currently in\n\nthe hands of Defendant Fannie Mae and its attorneys in the Cam litigation, and should be\n\navailable for production within a matter of days. Certainly, counsel for Defendants in\n\nthis litigation already have this material, having used a selected part of it for their Motion\n\nfor Summary Judgment, and the provision of it to Plaintiff Williams is a reasonable, fair\n\n\n\n\n                                              3\n\f  Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB          Document 18         Filed 12/24/2005       Page 4 of 6\n\n\n\nand just demand \u2013 especially prior to this Court\u2019s ruling on their Motion for dispositive\n\ntreatment of the Amended Complaint.\n\n       Additional new discovery which may be necessary prior to the filing of Plaintiff\u2019s\n\nOpposition to the Motion for Summary Judgment would be focused on specifically\n\nobtaining pertinent documents which may not have been incorporated into the Cam\n\nlitigation and discovery files; including obtaining e-mails, phone logs, correspondence\n\nand other communications among the Defendants which address in any manner Plaintiff\n\nWilliams which were produced or originated from approximately May 2001 (when\n\nDefendants are claiming that Plaintiff\u2019s relevant Statutes of Limitations on her claims\n\nshould begin to run) to and through at least October 2003 (when Plaintiff is claiming that\n\nthe relevant SOLs should begin). This production may necessarily incur the requirement\n\nfor limited depositions to be conducted regarding the documents produced.\n\n       Again, this \u201cnew\u201d discovery sought pursuant to Rule 56(f) is merely intended to\n\ngive Plaintiff an equal footing with Defendants in presenting facts and circumstances in\n\nOpposition to the pending Motion for Summary Judgment, prior to the Court ruling on\n\nsuch a crucial matter.\n\n       If, in fact, the Court does not need this further submission of Plaintiff to determine\n\nthat this case should go forward into discovery (thus, reflecting the Court\u2019s ruling against\n\nboth of Defendants\u2019 dispositive motions), then the Rule 56(f) relief sought by Plaintiff\n\nwill not be necessary.\n\n       In the event that the Court rules that Plaintiff must file her Opposition without\n\nfurther Rule 56(f) discovery, and that the Defendants\u2019 Motion for Summary Judgment is\n\n\n\n\n                                             4\n\f  Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB           Document 18         Filed 12/24/2005       Page 5 of 6\n\n\n\nstill open for consideration, then Plaintiff respectfully requests an additional three weeks\n\nfrom the date of the Court\u2019s Order in which to file her full Opposition case.\n\n       WHEREFORE, Plaintiff urges that the Court grant her Civil Rule 56(f) Motion\n\nfor Continuance to complete the necessary cited discovery, as further set forth herein; or,\n\nin the alternative, that the Court proceed to rule immediately in denying the Defendants\u2019\n\nMotion for Summary Judgment based upon the insufficiency of such motion. As further\n\nalternative, the Plaintiff respectfully requests three weeks to file her Opposition, should\n\nno further discovery be granted.\n\n                                              Respectfully submitted,\n\n\n                                                    /S/\n                                              Michael W. Beasley, Esq.\n                                              D. C. Bar No. 248930\n                                              411 East Broad Street\n                                              Falls Church, Virginia 22046\n                                              Phone: (703) 241-2909\n                                              Fax: (703) 241-5885\n\n\n                                                   /S/\n                                              Brian Lederer, Esq.\n                                              D. C. Bar No. 184184\n                                              3003 Van Ness St., NW, Suite #W228\n                                              Washington, D. C. 20008\n                                              Phone: (202) 244-1715\n\n                                              Members of the District Court Bar for the\n                                              United States District Court for the\n                                              District of Columbia\n                                              Attorneys for Plaintiff\n                                               Marialice Bathrus Williams\n\nDecember 23, 2005\n\n\n\n\n                                              5\n\f  Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB         Document 18        Filed 12/24/2005       Page 6 of 6\n\n\n\n                             CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE\n\n\n       I hereby certify that one copy of the foregoing \u201cPlaintiff\u2019s Reply to Defendants\u2019\n\nOpposition to Plaintiff\u2019s Civil Rule 56(f) Motion for Continuance,\u201d was provided by\n\nfirst-class mail, postage prepaid, this 23d day of December 2005, to the following named\n\ncounsel for Defendants:\n\nEvelyn L. Becker, Esquire\nSarah Alexander Goldfrank, Esquire\nO\u2019Melveny & Myers, LLP\n1625 Eye Street, N. W.\nWashington, D. C. 20006-4001\n\nCounsel for Defendants Fannie Mae,\n Lawch and Huebscher\n\n\n\n\n                                                           /S/\n                                                    Michael W. Beasley, Esq.\n                                                    D. C. Bar No. 248930\n\nCounsel for Plaintiff\n\n\n\n\n                                            6\n\f","ocr_status":2,"date_upload":"2009-07-31T12:46:35-07:00","document_number":"18","attachment_number":null,"pacer_doc_id":"04501479244","is_available":true,"is_free_on_pacer":null,"is_sealed":null,"document_type":1,"description":"Reply to opposition to Motion","acms_document_guid":""}],"date_created":"2016-08-20T05:58:42.401884-07:00","date_modified":"2018-12-11T18:25:08.861381-08:00","date_filed":"2005-12-24","time_filed":null,"entry_number":18,"recap_sequence_number":"2005-12-24.001","pacer_sequence_number":null,"description":"REPLY to opposition to motion re [13] Continuation for Discovery Pursuant to Civil Rule 56(f) filed by MARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS. (Beasley, Michael)","tags":[]}],"entries_total":"https://www.courtlistener.com/api/rest/v4/docket-entries/?count=on&docket=4202584&page_size=40"}