Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 1 of 52 EXHIBIT H Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 2 of 52 Robert G. Jones Page 1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA MARIALICE BATHRUS WILLIAMS, CIVIL ACTION Plaintiff, NO. 1:05CV01483 VERSUS Judge John D. Bates FEDERAL NATIONAL MORTGAGE ASSOCIATION, et al. Defendants. Videotaped Deposition of ROBERT G. JONES, No. 3 Palmer Place, Gulfport, Mississippi, taken in the Law Offices of McGlinchey Stafford, PLLC, 643 Magazine Street, New Orleans, Louisiana, 70130, on Wednesday, the 11th day of April, 2007, commencing at 9:16 a.m. and concluding at 12:22 p.m. APPEARANCES: (Via telephone) HARLEY DANIELS, ESQUIRE BRIAN LEDERER, ESQUIRE 3003 Van Ness Street, N.W. Suite #W228 Washington, D.C. 20008 (Attorneys for the Plaintiff, Marialice Bathrus Williams) FANNIE MAE (By: Jonathan L. Griffith, Esquire) 3900 Wisconsin Avenue, NW Washington, DC 20016-2892 (Attorneys for the Defendant, Fannie Mae) O'MELVENY & MYERS, LLP (By: Sarah Alexander Goldfrank, Esq.) 1625 Eye Street, NW Washington, D.C. 20006-4001 (Attorneys for the Defendant, Fannie Mae, Richard Lawch, Grace Huebscher) ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES DC 1-800-441-3376 MD 1-800-539-6398 VA 1-800-752-8979 0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 3 of 52 Robert G. Jones Page 2 Page 4 1 APPEARANCES: (Continued) 2 1 STIPULATION SETH M. HUNTER 2 3 ATTORNEY & COUNSELOR AT LAW, PLLC 404 Hemphill Street 3 It is stipulated and agreed by and 4 Hattiesburg, Mississippi 39401 (Attorney for Robert G. Jones) 4 between counsel for the parties hereto that 5 6 5 the deposition of the aforementioned witness VIDEOGRAPHER: 6 is hereby being taken under the Federal Rules 7 KARL STIEGMAN, CLVS 7 of Civil Procedure, for all purposes, in 8 REPORTED BY: 8 accordance with law; 9 NANCY LAPORTE 9 That the formalities of reading and 10 Certified Court Reporter 10 signing are specifically not waived; State of Louisiana 11 11 That the formalities of sealing, 12 13 * * * 12 certification, and filing are specifically 14 13 waived; INDEX 15 14 That all objections, save those as to Exhibits: 16 15 the form of the question and the 17 Defendant's 16 responsiveness of the answer, are hereby Jones 1 - Bates No. 6907, excerpts of "First 17 reserved until such time as this deposition, 18 Amended Complaint" 19 Jones 2 - Bates Nos. 8002-8004, e-mail dated 18 or any part thereof, may be used or sought to May 3, 2001, from Marialice Williams to Rhoda 20 Newman, Grace Huebscher, Bob Jones, and Harvey 19 be used in evidence. 21 Hartsfield 20 ***** Jones 3 - Excerpt from deposition testimony 21 NANCY LAPORTE, Certified Court Reporter, 22 given by Robert Jones on January 30, 2004 23 Jones 4 - Letter from Marialice Williams to 22 in and for the Parish of Orleans, State of 24 Lou Hoyes, dated February 2nd, 1999 23 Louisiana, officiated in administering the Jones 5 - Bates No. 7918, e-mail from 24 oath to the witness. 25 Ms. Williams to Bob Jones, "CC-ing" H. Hartsfield 25 Page 3 Page 5 1 Exhibits: (Continued) 1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 2 Jones 6 - Bates Nos. 8015-8017, e-mail dated 2 This is the videotape deposition May 15th, 2001, from Bob Jones to Stephen 3 Noble 3 of Robert G. Jones. This deposition is being 4 Jones 7 - Bates Nos. 6230-6232 and 8031, 4 held at 643 Magazine Street in New Orleans, e-mail 5 Louisiana on April 11th, 2007, at the time 5 6 indicated on the video screen, 9:16. My name Plaintiff's: 7 is Karl Stiegman, and I am a certified legal 6 8 video specialist with Depo-Vue. The court Exhibit 1 - Bates No. 7232, e-mail from Robert 9 reporter is Nancy Laporte with Esquire 7 Jones to Danny Groves 8 10 Reporting. 9 * * * 11 Would counsel please introduce 10 12 themselves? 11 13 MR. GRIFFITH: 12 14 Jonathan Griffith for Fannie Mae. 13 15 MS. GOLDFRANK: 14 15 16 Sarah Goldfrank for Fannie Mae, 16 17 Richard Lawch and Grace Huebscher. 17 18 MR. HUNTER: 18 19 Seth Hunter representing Bob 19 20 Jones. 20 21 MR. DANIELS: 21 22 22 Harley Daniels and Brian Lederer 23 23 representing Marialice B. Williams. 24 24 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 25 25 Would the court reporter please 2 (Pages 2 to 5) ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES DC 1-800-441-3376 MD 1-800-539-6398 VA 1-800-752-8979 0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 4 of 52 Robert G. Jones Page 6 Page 8 1 swear in the witness? 1 Q. At one point in time, were you 2 Thereupon, 2 president of CAM Financial Services? 3 ROBERT G. JONES, 3 A. I was. 4 having been first duly sworn, was examined and 4 Q. Can you tell me when you first 5 testified as follows: 5 became president of CAM Financial Services? 6 EXAMINATION BY MR. GRIFFITH: 6 A. When CAM was incorporated in 7 Q. Mr. Jones, can you state your 7 1991. 8 full name and address for the record, please? 8 Q. When did you step down as 9 A. Robert Gayle Jones, No. 3 Palmer 9 president? 10 Place, Gulfport, Mississippi. 10 A. In June of 2005. 11 Q. Is there any reason why you 11 Q. And do you have any other current 12 cannot testify fully and honestly today? 12 relationship with CAM Financial Services, 13 A. No. 13 other than being a stockholder? 14 Q. Mr. Jones, did you receive a 14 A. That would be it. 15 subpoena for documents in connection with your 15 Q. And is CAM Financial Services 16 testimony in this matter? 16 still doing business? 17 A. I believe my counsel did. I did 17 A. I couldn't tell you. 18 not. 18 Q. And can you tell me if Hurricane 19 Q. And did you have any documents 19 Katrina had an impact on CAM Financial 20 that were responsive to this subpoena? 20 Services? 21 A. I had no documents. I had a C.D. 21 A. Yes, it did. 22 that were all Bates-stamped documents that was 22 Q. What was that impact? 23 used in the Fannie Mae litigation, and I gave 23 A. CAM Financial Services' building, 24 that to Mr. Hunter, and he talked to your 24 documents, its operation was completely wiped 25 counsel. 25 out by Hurricane Katrina. Page 7 Page 9 1 Q. So the only documents you had 1 Q. Are you aware of any new 2 were documents that had been produced in the 2 transactions that CAM Financial Services has 3 CAM litigation; is that correct? 3 done since Hurricane Katrina? 4 A. That were produced, yes. 4 A. I have no idea. 5 Q. Mr. Jones, can you tell me, what 5 Q. And how long has CAM Financial 6 is CAM Financial Services, Inc.? 6 Services been in the insurance business? 7 MR. HUNTER: 7 A. I can't tell you how long, but up 8 Before we get started on that, I 8 until 19 -- up until 2005, during product 9 want to make a statement for the record that 9 development, taking -- going back to the 10 Mr. Jones is here as representing Mr. Jones 10 product development days, since 1992, '93 is 11 and not as a representative of CAM Financial 11 when product development first began. 12 Services, Incorporated. 12 Q. And can you tell me what 13 You can go ahead and answer it, 13 qualifications CAM had as an insurance broker? 14 Bob. 14 A. It's -- several of its 15 THE WITNESS: 15 principals, Groves and Rumsey, had an 16 CAM Financial Services was 16 insurance background, and on the mortgage 17 incorporated in 1991 as a financial services 17 brokerage side, I was at -- I had that 18 company to do both insurance brokerage for -- 18 expertise. 19 and mortgage brokerage of multi-family 19 Q. And can you tell me what your 20 properties. 20 experience was -- has been on the insurance 21 EXAMINATION BY MR. GRIFFITH: 21 side? 22 Q. And Mr. Jones, what is your 22 A. You will have to go further with 23 relationship with CAM Financial Services? 23 that. 24 A. I am a stockholder of CAM 24 Q. Let me start with this. 25 Financial Services. 25 How many years have you been in 3 (Pages 6 to 9) ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES DC 1-800-441-3376 MD 1-800-539-6398 VA 1-800-752-8979 0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 5 of 52 Robert G. Jones Page 10 Page 12 1 the insurance business? 1 securities transaction in the United States, 2 A. My first job out of college, and 2 whereby Fannie Mae was able to transfer all of 3 while I was in college, I worked for State 3 the risk of loss, as opposed to merely 4 Farm Insurance Agencies, and I was employed, I 4 insuring the loss to a third-party insurer, 5 guess you could go back to 1966 through the 5 AIG." 6 early '70s, I worked with State Farm -- Great 6 Mr. Jones, is Ms. Williams' 7 -- um, I can't -- Coastal. I can't tell you 7 statement that she had solely created and 8 the name of Coastal, but there was another 8 developed the products and processes related 9 insurance company. It was property casualty, 9 to the AIG transaction accurate? 10 and also life insurance in that arena, and 10 A. From a Fannie Mae perspective, 11 I've always stayed active with -- on the 11 she represented Fannie Mae, and a number of 12 insurance side, but not employed by any 12 other players at Fannie Mae would have been a 13 insurance companies until they -- we started 13 party to that, but she was the lead person at 14 working on product development for Fannie Mae. 14 Fannie Mae, and it's reasonably accurate, 15 Q. And that was in the early 1990s? 15 because, from what I understand, Fannie Mae 16 A. 1990s. 16 appointed her as the point person for the 17 Q. And you mentioned two other 17 creation of that product, and it took some 18 members of CAM Financial, Mr. Groves and 18 three years to develop and for -- 19 Mr. Rumsey, I believe? 19 Q. You mentioned she was the point 20 A. Correct. 20 person. 21 Q. Can you tell me about Mr. Groves' 21 Were you aware of others at 22 background in the insurance industry? 22 Fannie Mae who were also involved in the 23 A. He had some 20, 25 years 23 project? 24 working -- well, off and on, either as a 24 A. Yes. I think I just mentioned 25 general agency. Prior to that, he was an 25 that, others at Fannie Mae. Page 11 Page 13 1 employee of Nationwide Insurance for a number 1 Q. Can you tell me who those others 2 of years. 2 are? 3 Q. Can you describe any other 3 A. Lots of lawyers. It was 4 experience or qualifications that Mr. Groves 4 practically all lawyers. The names escape me 5 had with respect to insurance? 5 at this time. Paul Van Hook would have been 6 A. You would probably have to ask 6 the mortgage -- would be the multi-family 7 him that. 7 attorney. There would have been -- 8 Q. How about Mr. Rumsey? Can you 8 Mr. Griffin (sic), my memory is not as good as 9 describe his experience in the insurance 9 it used to be, but there were securities 10 industry? 10 attorneys at Fannie Mae that were involved in 11 A. He had a surplus lines broker's 11 this, but probably Paul Van Hook would have 12 license. He also had a general agency for -- 12 been the primary attorney for the mortgage 13 I think it was called South Coast Insurance, 13 company. 14 and probably early '90s, and I couldn't tell 14 Q. Would Richard Lawch have been 15 you if South Coast is still in business or 15 involved? 16 not. I assume it must be. 16 A. He just would have been -- not 17 Q. Mr. Jones, I am going to read for 17 day-to-day, no. He was involved in, I guess 18 you a paragraph from Ms. Williams' complaint 18 giving -- well, not guess -- in direction, and 19 against Fannie Mae and ask you some questions 19 he would have been the party, along with Lou 20 about it. 20 Hoyes, that would have given Marialice the 21 In Paragraph 16 of her complaint, 21 freedom to develop -- Marialice Williams the 22 Ms. Williams alleges the following: "In 1997, 22 freedom to develop this product for Fannie 23 utilizing products and processes which she had 23 Mae. 24 solely created and developed, Plaintiff 24 Q. We have been talking, Mr. Jones, 25 Williams closed the first mortgage-backed 25 about Fannie Mae, Fannie Mae's involvement in 4 (Pages 10 to 13) ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES DC 1-800-441-3376 MD 1-800-539-6398 VA 1-800-752-8979 0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 6 of 52 Robert G. Jones Page 14 Page 16 1 the products and processes related to the AIG 1 that one did not close, and they took -- 2 transaction. 2 Fannie Mae took Marialice off of that -- off 3 Were any other entities involved 3 of the Bay View Capital case. It was a seven 4 in developing those products and processes? 4 hundred million dollar case, and for some 5 A. From the outside of Fannie Mae, 5 reason, Mr. Lawch wouldn't let her work on it 6 yes. CAM Financial. 6 after she had created this product for Fannie 7 Q. And what was CAM's role in 7 Mae, and that was the demise of the Bay View 8 developing these products and processes? 8 transaction. It did not close, and CAM didn't 9 A. We were the party that developed 9 get paid on that either. 10 the -- or worked with Fannie Mae with outside 10 Q. Mr. Jones, at some point in time, 11 lawyers from AIG, the business people, the 11 CAM Financial filed a lawsuit against Fannie 12 business group from AIG in the product 12 Mae; is that correct? 13 development. Mr. Groves was pretty involved. 13 A. That is correct. 14 I was the point person on the CAM side, but 14 Q. And do you recall when that 15 we -- drafts after drafts that were gone 15 lawsuit was filed against Fannie Mae? 16 through, and CAM was the author, I guess you 16 A. In -- I believe it was in 17 could say. All drafts came through me, and I 17 December of -- December 2001. It was the 18 made the appropriate pen-and-ink changes, and 18 first amended complaint. 19 we would send the drafts to AIG's lawyers, and 19 Q. Mr. Jones, I am going to show you 20 then there was ASLICK lawyers, the surplus 20 what's been marked as Jones Exhibit 1. It's a 21 lines company for AIG. There were business 21 document, the first page of which is entitled 22 people from AIG also involved. There was a 22 "First Amended Complaint." The Bates number 23 number of people. 23 on the first page is 6907, and it is -- I will 24 Q. And did CAM Financial introduce 24 tell you -- an excerpt of that document. We 25 the products and processes to Fannie Mae? 25 didn't copy the whole thing. Page 15 Page 17 1 A. Yes. 1 Do you recognize this document, 2 Q. And at what point in time did 2 Mr. Jones? 3 Ms. Williams become involved in the process? 3 A. You said it's excerpts? 4 A. She became involved after CAM 4 Q. Yes. 5 brought the first DUS lender to Fannie Mae. 5 A. I believe I do, yes. 6 She was involved -- she was in the first 6 Q. And is this the complaint that 7 meeting, along with some credit policy people 7 CAM Financial Services filed against Fannie 8 from Fannie Mae, and the DUS lender, 8 Mae in December of 2001? 9 Eichler-Fein. That was in '93 or '94. I 9 A. I believe it is. 10 think it was early '94 probably, and prior to 10 Q. And I will ask you to turn to the 11 that, CAM had a -- was working with Mr. Groves 11 last page of the exhibit, which is Bates 12 through a Nationwide subsidiary called 12 numbered 63 -- excuse me -- 6936. 13 Scottsdale -- no -- yes, Scottsdale Insurance, 13 A. I am there. 14 and we actually had a draft policy and -- 14 Q. Can you read for me the sentence, 15 well, it was a term sheet. It wasn't a 15 kind of halfway down Paragraph 84 starting, 16 policy. That was the first product that we 16 "In order to compensate CAM..."? 17 took to Fannie Mae. 17 A. Sure. 18 Q. Mr. Jones, while Ms. Williams was 18 Q. Actually, why don't you read the 19 at Fannie Mae, how many insurance transactions 19 full two sentences so the folks on the phone 20 did CAM and AIG do with Fannie Mae? 20 can hear you. 21 A. There was the -- the first one 21 A. Starting with "in order"? 22 was in 1997, and there was a second one in 22 Q. Yes, please. 23 early '98 -- no -- that was working for ten 23 A. "In order to compensate CAM for 24 months with Bay View Capital, Bay View Savings 24 its time, efforts, expertise and expense, CAM 25 Bank, while Marialice was at Fannie Mae, but 25 was to be the sole and exclusive agent for 5 (Pages 14 to 17) ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES DC 1-800-441-3376 MD 1-800-539-6398 VA 1-800-752-8979 0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 7 of 52 Robert G. Jones Page 18 Page 20 1 Fannie Mae in the procurement of the MCRI 1 Ms. Williams at any point in time? 2 insurance. CAM has fulfilled its commitment 2 A. It's been a long time ago. I am 3 to Fannie Mae, and Fannie Mae has breached 3 not -- I just couldn't give you an absolute 4 this agreement by failing and refusing to 4 answer on that. I don't know. I don't 5 allow CAM to serve as agent for Fannie Mae and 5 recall. 6 instead is using other entities for the 6 Q. So you don't recall talking to 7 procurement of the MCRI insurance and other 7 her about the allegations prior to filing 8 derivative first loss risk coverage." 8 suit? 9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Jones. 9 A. Prior to? 10 And, Mr. Jones, is it your 10 Q. Yes, prior to. 11 understanding that CAM was to be the sole and 11 A. I don't recall. 12 exclusive agent for Fannie Mae in procurement 12 Q. Did Ms. Williams give a sworn 13 of MCRI insurance? 13 statement to CAM before it -- and CAM's 14 A. That is correct. 14 attorney -- before CAM filed suit against 15 Q. And can you tell me what MCRI 15 Fannie Mae? 16 insurance is? 16 A. You are helping me out now. 17 A. It stands for multi-family 17 There was a deposition that was taken by 18 credit. It's the acronym for multi-family 18 Mr. Wiser prior to Fannie Mae being brought 19 credit risk insurance. 19 into the lawsuit. 20 Q. And what is multi-family credit 20 Q. Would you have discussed your 21 risk insurance? 21 allegations, or potential allegations against 22 A. That's exactly what it is. 22 Fannie Mae, with Ms. Williams at that time? 23 Q. Can you describe it a little more 23 A. I don't know if I would have. 24 fully? 24 Mr. Wiser might have. 25 A. It's designed to insure various 25 Q. But she was aware at that time Page 19 Page 21 1 levels of tranche risk for Fannie Mae. 1 about a potential lawsuit; is that correct? 2 Q. And does this insurance include 2 A. I would say that is true. 3 insurance for Fannie Mae's aggregation 3 Q. Mr. Jones, are you familiar with 4 program? 4 Marialice Williams? 5 A. It was expanded to -- during the 5 A. "Familiar" is a broad term. 6 product development -- to cover aggregation, 6 Q. Do you know who Ms. Williams is? 7 which is a first-loss tranche risk, but it was 7 A. Yes. 8 designed broad enough that it could cover 8 Q. How long have you known 9 various levels of DUS risk. It could not only 9 Ms. Williams? 10 do first loss. Various tranches. In fact, 10 A. I first met Ms. Williams at the 11 when we first went to Fannie Mae, that was the 11 first introduction of the DUS lender 12 -- so that the goal was, make it broad enough 12 Eichler-Fein in early 1994 when she was 13 that -- at that time, we didn't have too much 13 working at Fannie Mae. 14 success with insurance companies covering 14 Q. When was the last time you spoke 15 first loss, because of the thrift debacle. 15 with Ms. Williams? 16 Q. Mr. Jones, the complaint alleged 16 A. It was either the death of her 17 that Fannie Mae refused to allow CAM to serve 17 mother, which I can't give you a date on that, 18 as agent, and instead used other entities for 18 or it was shortly after Hurricane Katrina hit, 19 the procurement of MCRI insurance. 19 because she had -- was trying to locate us. 20 Was Craig Ott one of the entities 20 Q. And have you spoken with her on 21 that CAM claimed Fannie Mae was using to 21 any other occasion? 22 procure MCRI insurance? 22 A. I don't believe so. 23 A. Yes. 23 Q. And do you recall whether the 24 Q. And did you discuss the 24 conversation regarding the death of her mother 25 allegations contained in CAM's complaint with 25 was before Hurricane Katrina or after? 6 (Pages 18 to 21) ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES DC 1-800-441-3376 MD 1-800-539-6398 VA 1-800-752-8979 0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 8 of 52 Robert G. Jones Page 22 Page 24 1 A. It may have been the same 1 do business in Washington, D.C. CAM and RMS 2 conversation. Things were pretty upside-down 2 do not have any connection with respect to 3 after Katrina. 3 ownership and no one from CAM or RMS has an 4 Q. And what did that discussion -- 4 interest in the other's business ventures. 5 what did you talk about during that 5 However, CAM and RMS have a broker agreement 6 discussion? 6 that is common in the insurance business. The 7 A. She just asked if we were okay 7 agreement indicates that when CAM locates an 8 after she finally got a call through on the 8 insurance company for a project that RMS is 9 cell phone. In fact, we lost the signal, and 9 working on, RMS agrees to compensate CAM 10 she tried several times to get us back. It 10 through some form of split commission. 11 was my wife and I, and we weren't even on the 11 However, it does not mean that CAM plays any 12 Coast. We hadn't even been able to get back 12 role in the development of the program or 13 to our home at that time. 13 project that RMS is working on nor does CAM 14 Q. Mr. Jones, are you familiar with 14 interface with RMS' customers." 15 a company called Risk Mitigation Strategies, 15 Q. Does this document refresh your 16 LLC? 16 recollection as to whether CAM's co-brokerage 17 A. Yes. 17 agreement was with Risk Mitigation Strategies, 18 Q. And can you tell me what Risk 18 LLC or with Marialice Associates? 19 Mitigation Strategies, LLC is? 19 A. I think, again, Danny Groves did 20 A. I don't know the complete make-up 20 the brokerage agreement, and I think it's a 21 of what Risk Mitigation does, but I know that 21 pretty good indication that that is true. 22 she was -- formed that company to lay off risk 22 Q. Do you have any reason to believe 23 for mortgage companies, and a certificate 23 that the statement that Ms. Williams makes in 24 company, I believe. She was also working on 24 this letter is inaccurate in any way? 25 some Fannie Mae programs, the DUS program at 25 A. No. Page 23 Page 25 1 Fannie Mae, and a captive program at Fannie 1 Q. Are you aware of whether CAM 2 Mae, and I think that was all done for Fannie 2 Financial Services ever had a written 3 Mae. I think that was all done through Risk 3 co-brokerage agreement with either Risk 4 Mitigation. 4 Mitigation Strategies, LLC, or with Marialice 5 Q. Did CAM Financial Services ever 5 Williams, or any other entity controlled by 6 have a co-brokerage agreement with Risk 6 her? 7 Mitigation strategies? 7 A. Again, Mr. Groves did the 8 A. Either Risk Mitigation 8 brokerage agreement, and if -- assuming that 9 Strategists, or Marialice Williams & 9 -- not assuming, but that would have been 10 Associates, and I wasn't completely familiar 10 produced in CAM's documents to Fannie Mae. 11 with this, because Danny Groves handled the 11 Q. I have actually never seen one. 12 brokerage setup with Marialice Williams. I am 12 I am just asking. I am not saying there is or 13 pretty sure it was consummated. In fact, I 13 isn't. Maybe just to refresh your 14 know it was. 14 recollection, I am going to show you what I am 15 Q. Let me show you what I am marking 15 marking as Jones 3, and it is an excerpt from 16 as Jones Exhibit 2, and it is a -- an e-mail 16 deposition testimony given by Mr. Jones on 17 with an attachment. The e-mail is dated May 17 January 30, 2004, and if you could just look 18 3, 2001, from Marialice Williams to a group of 18 at -- starting with line 20. Maybe you could 19 people, including Rhoda Newman, Grace 19 read that for the record. 20 Huebscher, Bob Jones, and Harvey Hartsfield, 20 A. "Did CAM have any written 21 and the Bates numbers are 8002 through 8004. 21 agreements with Ms. Williams or her business 22 I would ask you to read for me, 22 at the time?" 23 please, the third paragraph in the letter 23 "I know that Ms. Williams 24 attached to the e-mail. 24 discussed and worked with Danny Groves on 25 A. "My company, RMS, is licensed to 25 several different brokers agreements. I don't 7 (Pages 22 to 25) ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES DC 1-800-441-3376 MD 1-800-539-6398 VA 1-800-752-8979 0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 9 of 52 Robert G. Jones Page 26 Page 28 1 know that any of them were ever consummated." 1 agreement described in Ms. Williams' 2 Q. At that point in time, Mr. Jones, 2 interrogatory responses, did CAM Financial 3 was it accurate to say that you weren't sure 3 Services have any other co-brokerage 4 whether a signed agreement had actually been 4 agreements with RMS? And "RMS" I am using as 5 entered into? 5 a shorthand for Risk Mitigation Strategies, 6 A. I know that there were verbals 6 LLC. 7 that she -- that we had a 50/50 split on 7 A. They would have -- on DUS 8 commissions, and there were e-mails and 8 portfolio customers that Ms. Williams had, I 9 correspondence to that effect, and I know that 9 had -- was -- had made several proposals, I 10 Mr. Groves went through a number of draft 10 think both to AIG and to Zurich, that if she 11 brokerage agreements with Ms. Williams, but we 11 brought a customer in that would again be 12 had an agreement, for sure, verbal, that there 12 tranche risk, and we would pay her for 13 was a 50/50 split on any deal she brought to 13 bringing those to the table. 14 CAM. 14 Q. Was that part of the same 15 Q. Let me read for you Ms. Williams' 15 co-brokerage agreement, or was it a separate 16 interrogatory response to Fannie Mae, and the 16 agreement? 17 interrogatory asked Ms. Williams to describe 17 A. No, it would be part of the 18 the contents and scope of her joint venture or 18 general. It would encompass anything she 19 co-brokerage agreement. Her response to that 19 brought us. 20 was, quote: I had a simple, common 20 Q. And we've been talking about Risk 21 co-brokerage agreement with CAM Financial that 21 Mitigation Strategies. 22 entailed paying them a commission in the event 22 Did CAM Financial have any 23 that they secured the insurance that I needed 23 co-brokerage agreements with Marialice 24 on any of the proposals that I was working on. 24 Williams as opposed to Risk Mitigation? 25 These proposals ranged from insuring pools of 25 A. I am not understanding the Page 27 Page 29 1 automobile loans, charter school loans, 1 question. 2 captive insurance, and reinsurance, etc. 2 Q. We've talked a little bit about 3 Is that an accurate 3 an agreement that CAM Financial Services had 4 characterization of Risk Mitigation 4 with Risk Mitigation Strategies, LLC, and my 5 Strategies' agreement with CAM? 5 question to you is whether CAM had a separate 6 A. Could you repeat that? 6 agreement, co-brokerage agreement with 7 Q. Sure. 7 Ms. Williams? 8 "I had a simple, common 8 A. I couldn't answer that because of 9 co-brokerage agreement with CAM Financial that 9 whether it entailed how her surplus lines 10 entailed paying them a commission in the event 10 license read. I think a surplus lines license 11 that they secured the insurance that I needed 11 is for an individual, but again, it would be 12 on any of the proposals that I was working on. 12 part of the overall agreement. 13 These proposals ranged from insuring pools of 13 Q. Do you recall, Mr. Jones, when 14 automobile loans, charter school loans, 14 the co-brokerage agreement was first entered 15 captive insurance, and reinsurance." 15 into? 16 A. I would say that was a reasonably 16 A. It would have been shortly after, 17 accurate statement. I think when she means 17 or in the three months, four months following 18 reinsurance and captive, that she's referring 18 her leaving Fannie Mae. It would have been in 19 to tranche risk, and that would include 19 the fall of '98 if I would put a time frame on 20 mortgages. 20 it. That's when Mr. Groves was working with 21 Q. And with that caveat, you think 21 her on brokerage agreements. 22 that her characterization is accurate? 22 Q. Mr. Jones, I am going to show you 23 A. I have no reason to disagree with 23 what's been marked as Jones Exhibit 4. It's a 24 it. 24 letter from Marialice Williams to Lou Hoyes, 25 Q. Other than the co-brokerage 25 and it is dated February 2nd, 1999. 8 (Pages 26 to 29) ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES DC 1-800-441-3376 MD 1-800-539-6398 VA 1-800-752-8979 0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 10 of 52 Robert G. Jones Page 30 Page 32 1 Just for the record, I would ask 1 Q. By February 2nd, 1999, it was 2 you to read the second paragraph of that 2 clear that was not going to happen; is that 3 letter. 3 correct? 4 A. "As you are aware, I left Fannie 4 A. Well, we were still -- I don't 5 Mae in July after being offered an appointment 5 think we were asking for it any further at 6 and ownership opportunities with CAM Financial 6 that time, and we were just trying to continue 7 Services, Inc.; however, after months of 7 to do some kind of business together, which 8 negotiations with its cast of principals, I 8 would help Ms. Williams. 9 was unable to reach any agreement with them 9 Q. And did -- I asked you whether 10 whatsoever. With Mr. Lee and Mr. Moore, RMS, 10 CAM Financial Services and Risk Mitigation 11 made a bid last year to purchase CAM, but this 11 Strategies had ever joined into a joint 12 offer, too, was rebuffed." 12 venture. 13 Q. Is it fair to say as of February 13 Did CAM Financial Services and 14 2nd, 1999, the only agreement between CAM 14 Marialice Williams ever enter into a joint 15 Financial Services and RMS for Marialice was 15 venture? 16 the co-brokerage agreement? 16 A. We did not, or they did not. I 17 A. I believe that's a correct 17 can't -- I am here to appear as an individual. 18 statement, and there's something in here about 18 Q. Did you work on any non-Fannie 19 the opportunities for appointment. The cast 19 Mae projects with either Ms. Williams or Risk 20 of principals at CAM had asked that Marialice 20 Mitigation Strategies? 21 be able to get a letter from Lou Hoyes that 21 A. Yes, we did. We worked on -- 22 indicated her leaving, that she did not have a 22 with Mr. Hoyes' permission, we worked on a 23 non-compete clause with Fannie Mae, and I 23 commercial certificates coverage for a -- it 24 don't know, for some reason or other, 24 wasn't certificates -- it was commercial 25 Ms. Williams could not get that letter from 25 mortgage portfolio for Metropolitan Bank. Page 31 Page 33 1 Mr. Hoyes. 1 Mr. Hoyes gave us permission, Ms. Williams and 2 Q. So I can get back to the 2 I, to pursue that, because Fannie Mae could 3 question, just to make sure I have a clean 3 not provide, or could not purchase the 4 answer, but the question was: Is it fair to 4 mortgage back that had a significant amount of 5 say, as of early February, as of February 2nd, 5 commercial loans in it as Metropolitan had 6 1999, the only agreement between CAM and the 6 requested, and that was the first venture 7 Risk Mitigation Strategists, LLC with 7 outside of a Fannie Mae portfolio, and we 8 Ms. Williams was a co-brokerage agreement? 8 were -- she and I continued to work on captive 9 A. To the best of my knowledge. 9 insurance. I think it's part of my 10 Q. And is it also fair to say that 10 deposition. She -- to some certain extent 11 no other agreements, to use the language of 11 worked with her on First Atlantic on a 12 the letter, whatsoever had been reached? 12 certificate coverage. Again, we were -- CAM's 13 A. I think that's an accurate 13 role would have been to find the insurance 14 statement. 14 capacity. It was policies -- that particular 15 Q. Did CAM Financial Services and 15 policy Marialice Williams had developed for 16 Risk Mitigation Strategies, LLC ever enter 16 certificate coverage. 17 into a joint venture? 17 Q. And how long did you continue to 18 A. No. That was part of the 18 do business with Ms. Williams or RMS? 19 agreement that was supposed to be coming from 19 A. Again, this was product 20 Mr. Hoyes that would have enabled Ms. Williams 20 development. Probably the DUS transactions 21 to form an MWOB? MWOB, yeah, and that would 21 for DUS customers. We were pursuing tranche 22 be tied together with marketing with CAM 22 coverage. That would have been Fannie Mae 23 Financial Services. That was something that 23 2000 -- Mr. Griffin, I can't remember when, 24 Mr. Hoyes had promised Ms. Williams at her 24 but it would have been 2001, I would say in 25 exit. 25 August -- well, actually, it was May, June, 9 (Pages 30 to 33) ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES DC 1-800-441-3376 MD 1-800-539-6398 VA 1-800-752-8979 0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 11 of 52 Robert G. Jones Page 34 Page 36 1 July, and August, and we were looking for 1 we off? 2 tranche coverage for the DUS portfolios. She 2 MR. GRIFFITH: 3 asked us if we could find insurance companies. 3 Yes. Off the record. 4 That was the project she was working on for 4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 5 Fannie Mae, and we were only working on it 5 Going off of the record. It's 6 from the insurance perspective. 6 10:05. Videotape No. 1. 7 Q. And were there any other product 7 (Brief Recess.) 8 development projects that you were working on 8 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 9 with Ms. Williams, other than the DUS project? 9 We are back on the record. It's 10 A. And the others that we talked 10 10:13. Beginning of videotape No. 2. 11 about. 11 EXAMINATION BY MR. GRIFFITH: 12 Q. And the others that we talked 12 Q. Mr. Jones, did you have anything 13 about, yes. 13 you wanted to clarify on the record? 14 A. She brought a charter, or 14 A. I do. You asked if there were 15 introduced a charter loan program for charter 15 any transactions that were ever consummated 16 schools, but I don't believe we got involved 16 between CAM and Risk Mitigation. There was an 17 in that with her. I am not sure how far that 17 application fee of $10,000 that was taken from 18 went. 18 -- I believe the company was First Atlantic, 19 Q. And you mentioned that the work 19 and it was for the purpose of developing a 20 you were doing with her was product 20 captive insurance policy for captive coverage, 21 development work. 21 and those fees were split between Risk 22 Did you do any actual 22 Mitigation and CAM. 23 transactions with Ms. Williams, or with her 23 Q. Do you recall when that 24 company, Risk Mitigation Strategists, LLC? 24 transaction took place? 25 A. I don't recall any actual 25 A. I don't. Page 35 Page 37 1 transactions. 1 Q. And we talked a little bit, prior 2 Q. Did CAM ever breach its 2 to the break, about a DUS transaction 3 co-brokerage agreement with Risk Mitigation 3 involving Fannie Mae and several other -- 4 Strategists, LLC? 4 several other product development projects 5 A. I didn't hear you. 5 that CAM worked on with Ms. Williams or Risk 6 Q. Did CAM Financial Services ever 6 Mitigation Strategists, and I believe you 7 breach its co-brokerage agreement with Risk 7 testified about the timing of the DUS 8 Mitigation Strategists, LLC? 8 transaction. On the non-Fannie Mae 9 A. I am not aware if we did. I 9 transactions, can you give me a time frame for 10 don't know how broad breach is. 10 those? 11 Q. Is the co-brokerage agreement 11 A. The commercial transaction that 12 still in effect? 12 Marialice Williams and CAM worked on for 13 A. I don't know. I am not at CAM 13 Metropolitan, this did not close, but it was 14 anymore. 14 in August -- August of 1998 is to the best of 15 Q. Was it in effect as of the date 15 my recollection of when she and I talked to -- 16 that you stepped down as president of CAM 16 had a conference call with Lou Hoyes, and that 17 Financial? 17 was the non-Fannie Mae transaction. 18 A. I know no reason why it was ever 18 Q. And then you've testified about 19 terminated, I just couldn't answer that, 19 the First Atlantic transaction. 20 because Mr. Groves was responsible for 20 What about the charter 21 brokerage agreements. 21 transaction? 22 Q. Would you like to take a quick 22 A. That was just product development 23 break, Mr. Jones? 23 that Ms. Williams was working on, and she may 24 THE WITNESS: 24 have sent a term sheet to me, but we did not 25 Sure. Get some fresh water. Are 25 get involved in that. CAM did not get 10 (Pages 34 to 37) ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES DC 1-800-441-3376 MD 1-800-539-6398 VA 1-800-752-8979 0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 12 of 52 Robert G. Jones Page 38 Page 40 1 involved in that. 1 those sentences mean? 2 Q. Mr. Jones, are you familiar with 2 A. I think this is something -- 3 Grace Huebscher? 3 Danny Groves had been talking with Zurich 4 A. I am. 4 Insurance, or Zurich North American, and it 5 Q. Who is Ms. Huebscher? 5 was like to tweak their interest. They had, I 6 A. Grace Huebscher, at the time I 6 believe, something called asset deficiency, 7 knew her, was heading the -- Fannie Mae's 7 and Mr. Groves was looking at perhaps 8 aggregation program. 8 modifying the MCRI program. I don't recall 9 Q. And can you tell me a little bit 9 whether there was a separate policy that 10 about what that aggregation program is? 10 Zurich had. I think there was a separate 11 A. The aggregation program was where 11 policy that Zurich had called "asset 12 Fannie Mae purchased whole loans from 12 deficiency insurance." 13 seller/servicers to do whole loans. I am 13 Q. I want to get back to a 14 referring strictly to multi-family whole loans 14 discussion we started about Ms. Huebscher. 15 now for approved Fannie Mae seller/servicers, 15 Did you ever have any discussions 16 and then those loans are purchased for cash, 16 with Ms. Huebscher about Marialice Williams or 17 and Fannie Mae then holds those loans in 17 Risk Mitigation Strategies, LLC after 18 portfolio, and were the -- using the MCRI 18 Ms. Williams left Fannie Mae? 19 insurance product to insure -- to lay off the 19 A. Yes. 20 risk of first-loss exposure. 20 Q. And when would have those 21 Q. Mr. Jones, I am going to show you 21 discussions have occurred? 22 what I am going to mark as Jones Exhibit 5. 22 A. We were at a mortgage bankers 23 It's a document with the Bates label 7918, and 23 CREF conference. When I say "we," 24 at the top it appears to be an e-mail from 24 Ms. Williams, Ms. Huebscher, and me, and we 25 Ms. Williams to Bob Jones "CC-ing" an 25 would have -- we had some conversation with Page 39 Page 41 1 H. Hartsfield. 1 Grace Huebscher at that conference about the 2 Take a look at that document. 2 mortgage insurance programs. 3 A. (Witness reviews document.) 3 Q. And do you recall when those 4 Q. My first question on this 4 conversations would have taken place? 5 document is whether this document relates to 5 A. After Marialice Williams left 6 the DUS proposal that we previously discussed 6 Fannie Mae. I'm trying to remember where that 7 involving Risk Mitigation Strategists? 7 conference -- there's an annual CREF 8 A. I believe Marialice Williams was 8 conference. I can picture us standing 9 talking with Fannie Mae at this time with -- 9 together, but I can just tell you it was after 10 it appears to be with Ken Bacon -- and there 10 Marialice Williams left Fannie Mae, and it's 11 was apparently some concern about risk-based 11 probably about this same time frame here. 12 capital and covering a mezzanine level, either 12 Q. By "this same time frame," in the 13 first loss -- it appears that it's above the 13 early to mid part of 2001? 14 first five percent, and, yes, this would be 14 A. Correct. 15 during that same time frame that she was 15 Q. And that was a discussion -- 16 pursuing this coverage for three DUS lenders. 16 A. Something jogged. Ms. Williams, 17 Q. In the top of the -- there is two 17 at the same conference, talked to Ken Bacon 18 e-mails. It looks like one is responding to 18 about the -- insuring the DUS risk. 19 the other, and in the bottom e-mail, the top 19 Q. And the conversation you had 20 of that it reads, "Bob Jones wrote: Danny and 20 about Ms. Williams and RMS, Ms. Williams was 21 I have talked. We would like to treat this as 21 present for that conversation? 22 a separate business relationship from CAM's 22 A. Repeat that question? 23 relationship with Fannie Mae and Aggregation 23 Q. I asked you whether you had had 24 and MBS." 24 any discussions with Ms. Huebscher about 25 Can you tell me what that means, 25 Marialice Williams or Risk Mitigation 11 (Pages 38 to 41) ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES DC 1-800-441-3376 MD 1-800-539-6398 VA 1-800-752-8979 0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 13 of 52 Robert G. Jones Page 42 Page 44 1 Strategies, LLC, and you mentioned this one 1 Q. Okay. 2 meeting at the conference with yourself and 2 Did Ms. Huebscher make any 3 Ms. Williams and Ms. Huebscher. 3 disparaging remarks about Ms. Williams or Risk 4 Other than that conversation, did 4 Mitigation Strategists, LLC to you? 5 you have any other conversations with 5 A. I don't recall. 6 Ms. Huebscher about Marialice Williams or Risk 6 Q. Did Ms. Huebscher ever -- strike 7 Mitigation Strategists, LLC? 7 that. 8 A. I don't recall specific 8 Did Ms. Huebscher ever discuss 9 conversations, but they could have occurred in 9 Ms. Williams' business acumen with CAM 10 e-mails. I am not going to rule out that 10 Financial or with you? 11 there -- I just remember that one specific 11 A. I don't have any knowledge or 12 one, and then there was a specific 12 recall. 13 conversation with Ken Bacon with Marialice 13 Q. Do you recall whether 14 Williams and myself, and Mr. Bacon had said 14 Ms. Huebscher ever made any false statements 15 for Marialice to please get in touch with him 15 to you about Ms. Williams or Risk Mitigation 16 afterward -- got back to Washington. 16 Strategists, LLC? 17 Q. And the conversation you had with 17 A. I have no recall. I don't think 18 Ms. Huebscher, Ms. Williams was present for 18 so. 19 that conversation? 19 Q. Are you familiar with Richard 20 A. Correct. 20 Lawch? 21 Q. And do you recall any other 21 A. I am. 22 specific conversations with Ms. Huebscher 22 Q. Who is Mr. Lawch? 23 about Marialice Williams or Risk Mitigation 23 A. He's a Fannie Mae employee, a 24 Strategists, LLC? 24 vice president, and at the time I knew him, he 25 A. I am thinking. My memory's not 25 was the number-two person in multi-family as Page 43 Page 45 1 as good as it used to be. Lou Hoyes, Rhoda 1 far as the organization structure was 2 Newman. There was conversations with Mari -- 2 concerned, and I guess you could say he was 3 I just don't know that -- Rhoda Newman, after 3 Marialice Williams' direct boss. 4 Marialice Williams left, reported to Grace 4 Q. Did you have any discussions with 5 Huebscher. I believe that's correct, and I 5 Mr. Lawch regarding Marialice Williams or Risk 6 know there were conversations with Rhoda 6 Mitigation Strategies, LLC after she -- after 7 Newman, Marialice Williams, and myself. I 7 Ms. Williams left Fannie Mae? 8 just don't know that Grace Huebscher was ever 8 A. After she left? 9 a party to those calls or not. 9 Q. Yes. 10 Q. Did you ever have any 10 A. I had conversations with Richard 11 conversations with Ms. Huebscher about 11 Lawch before she left. I am trying to think 12 Marialice Williams or Risk Mitigation 12 if there is any e-mails that involved me with 13 Strategists, LLC, for which Ms. Williams was 13 either Richard or Grace with Marialice after 14 not present? 14 she left Fannie Mae. At another CREF 15 A. I just don't recall. 15 conference, I remember Marialice and I were 16 Q. Did Ms. Huebscher ever tell CAM 16 walking toward Richard. This was after she 17 Financial Services not to do business with 17 left Fannie Mae, and Richard turned his back 18 Ms. Williams or Risk Mitigation Strategists, 18 on us and refused to speak to us, and this was 19 LLC? 19 in a lobby of one of the main hotels, and he 20 A. Not that I recall. 20 just got involved in some other conversations 21 Q. Do you recall any disparaging 21 with some other people, but it was obvious he 22 remarks that Ms. Huebscher made to you about 22 didn't want to have any -- for some reason, 23 Ms. Williams or Risk Mitigation Strategists, 23 and I thought it was strange why he would not 24 LLC? 24 have -- why he would -- because he saw me, and 25 A. Repeat that question again? 25 I was walking into this reception area, I 12 (Pages 42 to 45) ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES DC 1-800-441-3376 MD 1-800-539-6398 VA 1-800-752-8979 0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 14 of 52 Robert G. Jones Page 46 Page 48 1 think it was. 1 A. You are going to have to 2 Q. Do you recall when this 2 elaborate on that. It's professional. It's a 3 conference was? 3 professional relationship. 4 A. It's a different one from the -- 4 Q. Is it a close professional 5 it might have been the same CREF conference 5 relationship? 6 where Marialice -- I think it was the same 6 A. I am sorry? 7 CREF conference where Marialice Williams and I 7 Q. A close professional 8 had a conversation with Richard -- with Grace 8 relationship? 9 Huebscher and Ken Bacon. 9 A. Reasonable -- yes. I treated 10 Q. Thank you for that. 10 Marialice as a friend, very good friend, but 11 I want to return to my original 11 it was professional, but family friend. 12 question, because I don't think you actually 12 Q. And we've been talking a little 13 answered the question, so let me ask it again. 13 bit about a proposal involving DUS loans, and 14 The question was whether you had 14 I wanted to focus you on a couple of documents 15 any discussions with Mr. Lawch about Marialice 15 to make sure I understand what the proposal 16 Williams or Risk Mitigation Strategies, LLC 16 entailed, and let me show you what I am going 17 after Ms. Williams left Fannie Mae. 17 to mark as Jones Exhibit 6. It is an e-mail 18 A. I don't recall. 18 dated May 15th, 2001, from Bob Jones to 19 Q. You don't recall any? 19 Stephen Noble, and it's got Bates numbers 8015 20 A. No. 20 through 8017. 21 Q. Other than -- strike that. 21 Mr. Jones, do you recognize this 22 Did you talk to anybody else at 22 document? 23 Fannie Mae about Marialice Williams or Risk 23 A. I do. 24 Mitigation Strategies, LLC after Ms. Williams 24 Q. And does this reflect the DUS 25 left Fannie Mae? 25 proposal that we've been discussing here Page 47 Page 49 1 A. Rhoda Newman and I would have had 1 today? 2 several conversations. I can't tell you the 2 A. Yes. This is the -- this is that 3 content of any of them, but Rhoda Newman and 3 DUS proposal. 4 Marialice Williams were very good friends, and 4 Q. And in her interrogatory 5 so was Betty Dance. There would be 5 responses, Ms. Williams, in a response to a 6 conversations that would come up. "We saw 6 question about a May 2001 proposal, indicated 7 Ms. Williams -- we saw Marialice. She came by 7 that the May 2001 proposal entailed the laying 8 this past week," or something like that to 8 off of risks associated with the Delegated 9 their offices there at Fannie Mae. Those kind 9 Underwriting Servicing program. 10 of conversations occurred. 10 Is this the same transaction or 11 Q. Just to make sure I understand 11 the same proposal? 12 who those conversations were with, they would 12 A. May of 2001? 13 have been with Rhoda Newman or Betty Dance? 13 Q. Yes. 14 A. That's correct. 14 A. I wasn't a party to that 15 Q. Did either Ms. Newman or 15 interrogatory, but I would -- it's the same 16 Ms. Dance make any disparaging remarks about 16 time frame, and it involves the same 26 DUS 17 Ms. Williams? 17 lenders. Yes. 18 A. Not that I recall, other than 18 Q. And can I ask you to read -- to 19 that Marialice was trying to drum up business. 19 turn to the third page of the exhibit, Bates 20 That's probably all related to that DUS 20 labeled 8017, and read for me the first 21 program I was talking about. I am assuming 21 sentence under "laying off the risk "? 22 that's why she was there. That and the 22 A. "RMS is seeking insurance 23 captive company. 23 coverage for three DUS lenders who want to lay 24 Q. Can I ask you just what type of 24 off their risk obligation on their DUS 25 relationship you have with Ms. Williams? 25 portfolio." 13 (Pages 46 to 49) ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES DC 1-800-441-3376 MD 1-800-539-6398 VA 1-800-752-8979 0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 15 of 52 Robert G. Jones Page 50 Page 52 1 Q. Does this accurately reflect the 1 were involved in this proposal? 2 DUS proposal that we, or the May proposal that 2 A. The specific insurance company 3 we've been discussing? 3 that we were writing to here is Zurich U.S., 4 A. I believe it is, yes. I believe 4 or Zurich North American, and then I had had 5 it is. 5 some conversation with AIG also. Danny had 6 Q. The sentence talks about three 6 the first conversation with Zurich, Danny 7 DUS lenders. 7 Groves. 8 Do you recall who those lenders 8 Q. And were there any other 9 were? And I don't want to make this a memory 9 insurance companies that you discussed this 10 test. If you look at the paragraph above it, 10 proposal with? 11 there is a discussion, so that may jog your 11 A. Not me. Mr. Groves may have, 12 memory. 12 but... 13 A. That is the same three lenders. 13 Q. Sitting here today, you don't 14 Q. That is HomeStreet Capital, Lend 14 know whether Mr. Groves would have discussed 15 Lease (Bovis) Real Estate Investments, and Red 15 this with other ones, or that he did discuss 16 Mortgage Capital Group? 16 this with other insurance carriers? 17 A. That is correct. 17 A. I don't know. 18 Q. And did the proposal involve any 18 Q. And in this proposal, is it fair 19 other specific lenders? 19 to say that you didn't identify any specific 20 A. It could. This was the 20 lenders, other than the three DUS lenders that 21 preliminary, and this was the first three 21 are listed on -- in the fourth paragraph of 22 lenders that Marialice was working with. 22 Page 3 of this exhibit? 23 Q. So this specific proposal only 23 A. Well, I did not in my e-mail -- I 24 related to these three, but there was a 24 did not identify those lenders, but they were 25 possibility for future -- 25 identified by Ms. Williams in her opportunity Page 51 Page 53 1 A. For others. I think they -- 1 to provide insurance coverage from mezzanine 2 these were three of the large ones, and -- 2 tranche risk. 3 Q. And it hadn't gotten to the point 3 Q. And does this document refresh 4 where the proposal actually involved those 4 your recollection as to whether -- strike 5 other lenders? 5 that. 6 A. She indicates in there that 6 Was this proposal being made by 7 there's 65 billion or so in the write-up 7 Risk Mitigation Strategies, LLC and CAM as 8 somewhere. 64 billion that would probably 8 co-brokers? 9 encompass the majority of those. 9 A. Yes, it would be. No, let me 10 Q. Let me ask you to turn to the 10 elaborate on that. The clients would be 11 first page, in the second paragraph, and the 11 Ms. Williams and Fannie Mae. The insurance 12 second sentence reads, "There may also be 12 companies are co-brokerage -- would be CAM 13 several other DUS Lenders having an interest 13 Financial Services for the insurance coverage. 14 in this coverage at some point in time." 14 Q. And can you tell me what CAM 15 And so, what can you tell me what 15 Financial Services' role was in this 16 that sentence means? 16 particular proposal? 17 A. Well, I think it's what she's 17 A. To locate the insurance coverage 18 referring to is this broker could be expanded 18 for Ms. Williams and Fannie Mae. 19 to other lenders. 19 Q. And what was Risk Mitigation 20 Q. Is it fair to say that the 20 Strategies' role in this proposal? 21 proposal that you were submitting to Mr. Noble 21 A. In representing those three -- 22 at Zurich involved three particular lenders, 22 those DUS lenders to lay off the risk on their 23 but then also -- involved three and also -- 23 portfolios, and in conjunction with Fannie 24 actually, just strike that. 24 Mae, not just the three DUS lenders. The 25 Can you tell me what insurers 25 Fannie Mae and the DUS lender are responsible, 14 (Pages 50 to 53) ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES DC 1-800-441-3376 MD 1-800-539-6398 VA 1-800-752-8979 0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 16 of 52 Robert G. Jones Page 54 Page 56 1 because that is Fannie Mae risk also. It's 1 Richard Lawch, my notes reflected that CAM 2 not just the DUS lender's risk. 2 was -- there were ten-page notes on those 3 Q. Mr. Jones -- 3 yellow legal pads that it was our 4 A. In fact, it's a pair of pursuit. 4 understanding, CAM's understanding that we 5 It is both lenders, both Fannie Mae and the 5 were exclusive. 6 DUS lender. 6 Q. Did you have these -- did you 7 Q. When was the last work that 7 have these discussions with Marialice Williams 8 you -- that CAM Financial did on this 8 while she was at Fannie Mae? Is that correct? 9 proposal? 9 A. I don't know if we had specific 10 A. With Zurich -- I think we had the 10 conversations to that effect. She was 11 open door with Zurich and AIG, and it was 11 thinking -- I think she was of the same 12 another company that came along later, but I 12 opinion that, under Mr. Lawch's direction, 13 think it was a captive. It would have been 13 that there was going to be MOUs with each new 14 this time frame from May to -- I would say the 14 insurance company, and in fact, Ms. Williams 15 window would have probably been May to August, 15 is the one that reflected on that for us to 16 and we were waiting for Ms. Williams and 16 bring the GenStar, GenRe, Crump, and others, 17 Fannie Mae to give us direction. 17 in addition to AIG, and that was under the 18 Q. And did you ever get any 18 direction of Mr. Lawch. 19 direction from Ms. Williams or Fannie Mae? 19 Q. Did you have any discussions with 20 A. Later from Ms. Williams that 20 Ms. Williams after she left Fannie Mae about 21 Fannie Mae wasn't pursuing this coverage, but 21 CAM's exclusive relationship with Fannie Mae? 22 they asked her to come in to make a captive 22 A. The conversations would have 23 insurance proposal for Fannie Mae, and again, 23 been, when she was in the process of leaving, 24 we would have been involved in that. 24 during the time where -- from May to June, or 25 Q. And can you tell me about the 25 May to July when she was leaving Fannie Mae Page 55 Page 57 1 captive insurance proposal? 1 that -- I think we all believed that CAM had 2 A. I only know that -- I think maybe 2 the exclusive with Fannie Mae and that 3 I was copied on some e-mails that Ms. Williams 3 Ms. Williams was negotiating with Lou Hoyes to 4 was making a captive presentation in about 4 expand that exclusive where she would -- where 5 August of 2001. It's somewhere in that time 5 Ms. Williams would have the marketing 6 frame, August, September, and on the direction 6 exclusive with her lenders, and that that 7 of Rhoda Newman and Grace Huebscher. 7 would -- that business would be coming to 8 Q. Is it your understanding of CAM's 8 Fannie Mae, and then CAM would be insuring 9 agreement with Fannie Mae that -- I think 9 that business. That was, to my knowledge, was 10 you've actually testified to this before, so 10 what she had discussed with Mr. Hoyes prior to 11 just let me confirm it, that Fannie Mae agreed 11 her leaving Fannie Mae. That's when I 12 that CAM was to be the sole and exclusive 12 mentioned the MWOB. 13 agent for Fannie Mae in the procurement of 13 Q. Was it -- is it -- was it CAM's 14 MCRI insurance? 14 understanding that Fannie Mae had to do any 15 A. That's my testimony. 15 business, any MCRI business involving GenStar 16 Q. And did you ever discuss this 16 or GenRe through CAM? 17 exclusive relationship with Ms. Williams? 17 A. Yes. 18 A. Yes. Once she was at Fannie Mae. 18 Q. And CAM also had an exclusive 19 We went through a -- those MOUs, as you are 19 relationship with GenStar through Crump; is 20 very much aware of, and some subsequent MOUs, 20 that correct? 21 and I think it was everybody's, at that time, 21 A. That was the brokerage. We had a 22 it was of everybody's opinion that -- I think 22 wholesaler between us. When I say "we," CAM 23 you have seen my notes that, from two 23 and Fannie Mae would go through Crump as its 24 conversations, one that involved Marialice 24 wholesaler -- not Fannie Mae, but CAM would, 25 Williams and Richard Lawch, and the other with 25 because that's the insurance side of the 15 (Pages 54 to 57) ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES DC 1-800-441-3376 MD 1-800-539-6398 VA 1-800-752-8979 0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 17 of 52 Robert G. Jones Page 58 Page 60 1 transaction, and that's -- I think there's 1 making any disparaging remarks about 2 agreements to that. 2 Ms. Williams to you, and you also testified 3 Q. Just to make sure I understand 3 that you didn't recall having any 4 it, Crump agreed to exclusively write MCRI 4 conversations about Ms. Williams or RMS, Risk 5 through CAM, and GenStar committed to write 5 Mitigation Strategies, with Mr. Lawch. 6 MCRI exclusively through Crump; is that 6 My question now is: Do you 7 correct? 7 recall discussing that type of conversation 8 A. That's correct. Worked both 8 with Ms. Williams? 9 ways. And that same exclusive with Crump was 9 A. Before or after she departed 10 to be developed with other insurance carriers. 10 Fannie Mae? I'm not with you. 11 MR. GRIFFITH: 11 Q. After she departed Fannie Mae. 12 Can we go off the record for a 12 A. With either Mr. Lawch or 13 little bit? 13 Ms. Huebscher? 14 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 14 Q. Yes. 15 We are going off the record. 15 A. Only -- the only one I am 16 This is videotape No. 2. 16 somewhat familiar with, or would be familiar 17 (Brief recess) 17 with is an e-mail that Ms. Williams told me 18 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 18 about that was in late May or early June of 19 We are going back on the record. 19 2001, of which you know about, and that's of 20 It's 11:13. This is videotape No. 2. 20 whether or not they were going to pursue this 21 EXAMINATION BY MR. GRIFFITH: 21 coverage with Ms. Williams, and that e-mail -- 22 Q. Mr. Jones, we have discussed 22 that's a long time ago, and we furnished the 23 today a May 2001 proposal involving DUS loans, 23 original of that e-mail to Fannie Mae. I 24 and we've also touched on a discussion 24 think it was part of my deposition, but that 25 regarding captive insurance, both of which 25 something about Fannie Mae was pursuing Page 59 Page 61 1 involved Ms. Williams. 1 different strategies or something, or 2 Are you aware of any other 2 considering Craig Ott for that type of 3 proposals that Ms. Williams made to Fannie Mae 3 coverage, depending on Mr. Lawch's comments, 4 after the time she left? 4 depending on risk-based -- what OFHEO said 5 A. I am thinking, but I am not sure. 5 about risk-based capital. 6 She may have made some. I don't know. 6 Q. Other than that, you are not 7 Q. But sitting here today, you can't 7 aware of anything? 8 -- 8 A. That's the -- at this time, I 9 A. These are the ones I am familiar 9 can't think of any others. We gave you that. 10 with. 10 Could we take a time out 11 Q. These two are the ones that you 11 technically for a technical problem? 12 recall? 12 MR. GRIFFITH: 13 A. Correct. 13 Sure. Let's go off the record. 14 Q. And you don't recall today any 14 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 15 others? 15 We are going off of the record. 16 A. Not offhand. 16 It's 11:17. This is videotape No. 2. 17 Q. Now, you testified earlier that 17 (Brief recess) 18 you don't recall any conversations with 18 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 19 Ms. Huebscher regarding -- 19 We are back on the record. It's 20 A. I am sorry. I am having some 20 11:19. This is videotape No. 2. 21 trouble. Some technical problems. 21 EXAMINATION BY MR. GRIFFITH: 22 Q. Just let me know if you don't 22 Q. Mr. Jones, I am going to give you 23 hear me. I will try to speak loudly. 23 what's been marked as Jones Exhibit 7. It's a 24 Mr. Jones, you testified earlier 24 document, Bates labeled 6230 through 6232, and 25 today that you didn't recall Ms. Huebscher 25 I have also included, attached to that is a 16 (Pages 58 to 61) ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES DC 1-800-441-3376 MD 1-800-539-6398 VA 1-800-752-8979 0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 18 of 52 Robert G. Jones Page 62 Page 64 1 document that's Bates labeled 8031. 1 We couldn't hear you over hear. 2 Can you take a look at that 2 EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS: 3 document for me, please? 3 Q. Isn't it true, Mr. Jones, that 4 A. (Witness reviews document.) 4 you are a person of the -- 5 Okay. 5 THE COURT REPORTER: 6 Q. And Mr. Jones, is Exhibit 7 the 6 The white race? 7 e-mail that you were referring to in your 7 MS. GOLDFRANK: 8 previous testimony? 8 Yes. 9 A. That's correct. 9 EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS: 10 Q. Thank you. 10 Q. -- white race? 11 Mr. Jones, you testified 11 A. Caucasian, white. 12 previously that you did not recall speaking 12 Q. Isn't it true that Mr. Groves is 13 with Mr. Lawch about Marialice Williams or 13 a member of the Caucasian race? 14 Risk Mitigation Strategies, LLC, correct? 14 A. That's correct. 15 A. After... 15 Q. Isn't it true that Mr. Rumsey is 16 Q. After Ms. Williams left Fannie 16 a member of the Caucasian race? 17 Mae; is that correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 A. That is correct. 18 Q. Isn't it true that Mr. Craig Ott 19 Q. And after Ms. Williams left 19 is a member of the Caucasian race? 20 Fannie Mae, I take it then that you don't 20 A. I believe so, yes. 21 recall any conversation in which Mr. Lawch 21 Q. Did CAM have any -- isn't it true 22 told CAM not to do business with Ms. Williams? 22 that all of the CAM shareholders were members 23 A. I don't recall of any 23 of the Caucasian race? 24 conversations. 24 A. That's correct. 25 Q. And you don't recall any 25 Q. Now, isn't it true that you began Page 63 Page 65 1 conversations in which Mr. Lawch made any 1 to seek business from Fannie Mae in 2 disparaging remarks about Ms. Williams after 2 approximately 1992, 1993? 3 she left Fannie Mae? 3 A. Our first meeting with Fannie 4 A. I don't recall of any. 4 Mae -- well, with DUS lenders, I was already 5 Q. And you don't recall any false 5 doing -- CAM was already doing business with 6 statements that Mr. Lawch made to you about 6 DUS lenders, and then, yes, that's correct. 7 Ms. Williams after she left Fannie Mae? 7 We went to Fannie Mae. CAM went to Fannie Mae 8 A. Well, same answer; same question. 8 with one of those DUS lenders in either late 9 Q. Really just the same question. 9 '93 or early '94. 10 MR. GRIFFITH: 10 Q. And what was the nature of that 11 I don't have anything further. 11 business? 12 EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS: (Via telephone) 12 A. Prior to Fannie Mae, it was 13 Q. This is Harley Daniels asking 13 multi-family mortgage brokerage, and then 14 questions of Mr. Jones. 14 involving Fannie Mae was the introduction and 15 Are you receiving me? 15 development of a multi-family mortgage 16 A. I hear you, Mr. Daniels. 16 insurance coverage policy in the early 17 Q. For the record, Mr. Jones, isn't 17 development stages. 18 it true that you are a person of the -- 18 Q. Now, at that time, did Mr. Groves 19 THE COURT REPORTER: 19 have any experience in the area of the 20 I'm sorry. I can't understand 20 secondary mortgage market? 21 that. 21 A. Is he saying Mr. Groves? 22 THE WITNESS: 22 Q. Yes. 23 I can't hear that. 23 A. Only on the -- can you repeat 24 MS. GOLDFRANK: 24 that question? 25 You'll have to repeat yourself. 25 MR. GRIFFITH: 17 (Pages 62 to 65) ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES DC 1-800-441-3376 MD 1-800-539-6398 VA 1-800-752-8979 0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 19 of 52 Robert G. Jones Page 66 Page 68 1 Maybe we'll see if the court 1 (Court reporter reads back previous question) 2 reporter can repeat it. 2 EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS: 3 MR. DANIELS: 3 Q. That was the development of 4 Certainly, please. In fact, if 4 low-income housing. 5 Mr. Jones would direct those questions to the 5 A. That is correct. On the 6 court reporter, I'd appreciate it. 6 inner-city, mid-city properties on low to 7 (Court reporter reads back prior question) 7 "mod" incoming housing, there was not an 8 THE WITNESS: 8 execution that was efficient in the 9 Not to my knowledge. 9 marketplace. 10 EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS: 10 Q. And was this fact, the fact that 11 Q. Did Mr. Rumsey have any 11 it would improve the ability of Fannie Mae to 12 experience in that area? 12 issue loans in urban areas more efficiently, 13 A. With -- only with REO, real 13 was this generally known to Richard Lawch and 14 estate owned. Multi-family REO with Freddie 14 Grace Huebscher and the people you were 15 Mac and Fannie Mae. 15 dealing with at Fannie Mae? 16 Q. You would agree it was not a 16 A. No. Only Marialice Williams. 17 major part of his expertise at that time; is 17 Q. Now -- 18 that correct? 18 A. Well, wait, wait. 19 A. On the secondary market, that is 19 MR. GRIFFITH: 20 correct. This is the property set that 20 Hold on a second. I think 21 tanked. 21 Mr. Jones is going to finish his answer. 22 Q. And, Mr. Jones, your experience 22 THE WITNESS: 23 was basically in the insurance area; isn't 23 There were some changes in 24 that correct? 24 accounting in how risk-based capital was 25 A. No. My experience was mortgage 25 reported at the thrift and at the -- for Page 67 Page 69 1 banking. My background was mortgage banking, 1 commercial banks that Mr. Lawch would have 2 and yes, I had some insurance experience. 2 known about, because the -- that particular 3 Q. And isn't it fair to say that the 3 type transaction had -- there was a void in 4 general subject of what you were trying to 4 the marketplace, and for that -- for those 5 accomplish with Fannie Mae would be the merger 5 portfolios to be sold to Fannie Mae, and that 6 of insurance and mortgage -- secure-type 6 was the -- I would -- I can't speak for 7 mortgages? 7 certain that Mr. Lawch would have known about 8 A. That is correct. In laying off 8 that, but Fannie Mae's volume had dried up 9 risk in hard to -- in the inner-city of 9 for -- from those banks and thrifts that were 10 America where thrifts and commercial banks -- 10 trying to sell their mortgages, and both 11 where there was a void there, and it was to -- 11 Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac corporately would 12 our -- the objective that we were wanting to 12 have known that that execution was no longer 13 -- that CAM or that Bob Jones wanted to -- it 13 available because of the changings in the 14 was combining those two experiences to improve 14 general accounting standards, and that's why 15 the efficiency of a transaction, and for those 15 it was so important to -- for Ms. Williams, 16 thrifts and small commercial banks to lay -- 16 from the Fannie Mae perspective, to develop 17 to be able to put those mortgages in 17 this type of coverage with -- with CAM and its 18 securities. 18 insurance contacts, to open that back up in 19 Q. And wouldn't you agree that it 19 the marketplace. There was a void of those 20 was that that was Marialice's passion for this 20 transactions for affordable housing. 21 particular issue? 21 EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS: 22 MR. GRIFFITH: 22 Q. Now, do you think it would be 23 I'm going to ask the court 23 fair to call all of these various products 24 reporter to read that back, because I don't 24 involving insurance and the secondary mortgage 25 think Mr. Jones heard you. 25 market, would you call them credit-enhancement 18 (Pages 66 to 69) ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES DC 1-800-441-3376 MD 1-800-539-6398 VA 1-800-752-8979 0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 20 of 52 Robert G. Jones Page 70 Page 72 1 products? 1 note from our videographer here. We are just 2 A. Absolutely. 2 changing the tapes. 3 Q. Would you mean some of the 3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 4 programs that Fannie Mae was involved in that 4 We are going off the record. 5 caused for a credit-enhancement using these 5 It's 11:33. It's the end of videotape No. 2. 6 various insurance pools? 6 (Off the record) 7 MR. GRIFFITH: 7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 8 Objection, vague. 8 We are back on the record. It's 9 THE WITNESS: 9 11:36. This is videotape No. 3. 10 You heard the question, but I 10 EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS: 11 couldn't. 11 Q. Mr. Jones, wouldn't you agree 12 MR. DANIELS: 12 that the -- that the products you developed 13 Would you ask the question to 13 for credit-enhancement were also applicable to 14 Mr. Jones, please, and let's let him determine 14 Fannie Mae's aggregation program? 15 whether it was vague or not. 15 A. Yes. 16 (Court reporter reads back previous question) 16 MR. GRIFFITH: 17 MR. GRIFFITH: 17 Objection. Objection. 18 Objection, foundation and 18 MR. DANIELS: 19 vagueness. Go ahead. 19 He answered yes? 20 EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS: 20 THE WITNESS: 21 Q. Can I ask the witness to answer 21 Yes. 22 the question, please? 22 EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS: 23 A. You are going to have to repeat 23 Q. And wouldn't you agree that they 24 it one more time. 24 would also be applicable to the negotiated 25 Q. Now, you've agreed that the 25 transactions program? Page 71 Page 73 1 merger of insurance and the secondary mortgage 1 A. Yes, I would agree. 2 market, in general, could be categorized or 2 Q. And wouldn't you agree that they 3 called credit enhancement; is that correct? 3 would also be applicable to the captive 4 A. In the insuring of the first 4 insurance program? 5 level of risk, or even the mezzanine level of 5 MR. GRIFFITH: 6 risk, yes. And that enhancement became a 6 Objection. 7 triple-A-rated insurance policy. 7 THE WITNESS: 8 Q. And that enhancement could apply 8 Yes, I would agree. 9 to DUS programs; is that correct? 9 EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS: 10 MR. GRIFFITH: 10 Q. And would they also apply to the 11 Objection. 11 face amount certificate program that you and 12 THE WITNESS: 12 Marialice worked on with First Atlantic, I 13 I don't understand the question. 13 believe it was? 14 EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS: 14 MR. GRIFFITH: 15 Q. Would you call what you were 15 Objection. 16 proposing to Fannie Mae, in the DUS program, 16 THE WITNESS: 17 as a credit enhancement? 17 That is correct. 18 A. Yes. That is correct. That's 18 EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS: 19 the first proposal that was made to Fannie Mae 19 Q. Now, moving on, I have got an 20 in the presence of Marialice Williams, and 20 exhibit which I haven't marked, but it has the 21 also people from credit policy, was to -- was 21 numbers 9703 on it. 22 a credit-enhancement for the DUS lender. 22 MS. GOLDFRANK: 23 Q. Now -- was that also true -- 23 Is it something we sent down to 24 MR. GRIFFITH: 24 you? 25 Hold on one second. We've got a 25 MR. DANIELS: 19 (Pages 70 to 73) ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES DC 1-800-441-3376 MD 1-800-539-6398 VA 1-800-752-8979 0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 21 of 52 Robert G. Jones Page 74 Page 76 1 Yes. It's a memo -- it's an 1 did not have a non-compete clause, and that 2 e-mail from Bob Jones to probably D. Groves 2 she was free to move forward with CAM, because 3 dated September 7th, 1998 . 3 we did not have the Fannie Mae agreement that 4 MS. GOLDFRANK: 4 she had been trying -- that she thought she 5 Is it 7297? 5 was going to get from Mr. Hoyes when she left 6 MR. DANIELS: 6 Fannie Mae. Mr. Rumsey would not move forward 7 9703 is on the right on the 7 with Ms. Williams without the comfort level 8 bottom MBW 007232. I think it was sort of 8 that there was no non-compete clause, so in 9 partially referred to in one of the questions 9 trying to keep the -- our entire effort, the 10 that came earlier. 10 CAM corporate strategy to expand its business 11 MS. GOLDFRANK: 11 with Fannie Mae, I was proposing that -- and I 12 You think we used it earlier? 12 don't have what the document is here, but that 13 MR. DANIELS: 13 CAM be purchased, or we join with an equity 14 That number was referred to 14 partner to raise capital, and that suitor 15 earlier. I don't think you asked a question 15 could have been a suitor by Ms. Williams, and 16 about it. 16 there was someone from -- a group from Crump 17 MR. GRIFFITH: 17 had -- Crump, who was our wholesale broker, 18 What's the number again? 18 had indicated an interest in buying CAM, and 19 MR. DANIELS: 19 that was the purpose of this e-mail was about. 20 007232. 20 Q. And so when you are referring to 21 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 21 the recent developments involving Marialice 22 Going off of the record. It's 22 leaving Fannie Mae, are you -- you are only 23 11:39. This is videotape No. 3. 23 referring to the fact that she didn't supply 24 (Off the record) 24 you, or Fannie wouldn't give you a non-compete 25 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 25 assurance, or were there other elements Page 75 Page 77 1 Going back on the record. It's 1 involved? 2 11:40. This is videotape No. 3. 2 A. The assurance -- this is from 3 EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS: 3 Mr. Rumsey's perspective -- that he didn't 4 Q. Mr. Jones, do you have what we've 4 want to get sued by Fannie Mae for pursuing 5 marked as Plaintiff's 1? Is that what we are 5 marketing with Marialice and Fannie Mae 6 calling it? 6 customers, and had asked that she be able to 7 A. 7232? Yes, I do. 7 get -- I guess it's a comfort letter -- that 8 Q. Now, this is -- this is an e-mail 8 there was no -- that she wouldn't be violating 9 that you wrote to Danny Groves, right? 9 any kind of non-compete clauses in her leaving 10 A. That is correct. 10 Fannie Mae. 11 Q. And in there you say, "In light 11 Q. Now, this was, in effect, 12 of all of the recent developments involving 12 devastating for CAM, obviously, because isn't 13 Marialice leaving Fannie Mae," what did you 13 it true, after you realized that Marialice was 14 mean by that? What were the recent 14 not going to be part of your package, that CAM 15 developments you were referring to? 15 was in serious trouble and needed to attract 16 A. Let me read the entire e-mail 16 additional capital to carry its program 17 first. 17 forward? 18 Q. Certainly. 18 MR. GRIFFITH: 19 A. This is where Chuck -- like me to 19 Objection. 20 answer that question? 20 THE WITNESS: 21 Q. Please, yes. 21 I think it's twofold. The Bay 22 A. Chuck here, I am referring to 22 View portfolio did not close, and it -- after 23 Chuck Rumsey, had been asking that Marialice 23 CAM had spent ten months on that and had 24 Williams furnish a -- something from Lou Hoyes 24 incurred a lot of -- a lot of costs of 25 that would just say that Marialice Williams 25 underwriting the loans out at Bay View, all of 20 (Pages 74 to 77) ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES DC 1-800-441-3376 MD 1-800-539-6398 VA 1-800-752-8979 0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 22 of 52 Robert G. Jones Page 78 Page 80 1 the structuring of the -- getting the approval 1 ideas with Fannie Mae. 2 of the portfolio from AIG. Richard Lawch had 2 A. She's -- Ms. Williams was, in my 3 signed the binder accepting the coverage for 3 opinion, critical to making those transactions 4 Fannie Mae, and then the -- while the 4 work, because she understood the efficiency of 5 mortgages were in the process of being 5 the execution and was the point person on the 6 delivered to Fannie Mae, there was a 6 insurance product for Fannie Mae. Nobody 7 substantial amount of what CAM had spent and 7 else -- this Green -- Alan Greenwald had no 8 didn't collect a dime on, and then Marialice, 8 clue how that transaction should work and had 9 in the same process, leaves Fannie Mae at the 9 no idea about the execution, and Richard Lawch 10 very same time during the same time period, 10 put him in charge of it. 11 because -- and like I had mentioned, Mr. Lawch 11 Q. Now, you worked with 12 refused to let Ms. Williams work on the Bay 12 Marialice from approximately 1992, '93 to 2000 13 View transaction, so CAM was in much need of 13 into the 21st century; is that correct? 14 attracting an equity partner. 14 A. 1994, early 1994 to at least 15 EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS: 15 2001. 16 Q. How did you find out that Richard 16 Q. Did you form any opinions as to 17 Lawch had refused to let Marialice work on the 17 the quality of the work she was doing in 18 transaction? 18 working with you on this Fannie Mae? 19 A. Can that question be repeated? 19 A. The quality of her work was very 20 (Court reporter reads back previous question) 20 good. She understood the insurance execution. 21 THE WITNESS: 21 Now, she learned a lot more about the 22 It was my personal involvement 22 insurance side. As time went on, she went 23 with Bay View Capital. They did not have an 23 through every one of those drafts of 24 investment banker, and CAM was the 24 40-some-odd insurance drafts to -- before the 25 intermediary between Bay View and Fannie Mae, 25 first transaction was closed with Metropolitan Page 79 Page 81 1 and I specifically asked Richard for Marialice 1 Savings Bank, and her knowledge was -- there 2 to stay on that -- to stay on that 2 was no -- I don't think there was anybody else 3 transaction, and he refused, and he put two 3 that understood small loans, the small loan 4 subordinates on the transaction, and to quote 4 program for multi-family for Fannie Mae at 5 Bay View, that -- Bay View Capital, Bay View 5 Fannie Mae. Nobody had any higher level of 6 Savings Bank, they -- Lawrence Schwartz, their 6 expertise on the small loan programs that -- 7 director of secondary marketing says, "Fannie 7 in my opinion anyway. Now, that's just my 8 Mae has just beat this to death. We are 8 opinion. 9 stopping the transaction," and that was in the 9 Q. Now, after she left Fannie Mae, 10 middle of mortgages being delivered to Fannie 10 you had an opportunity to observe her work 11 Mae. 11 with triple A insurance companies, didn't you? 12 EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS: 12 MR. GRIFFITH: 13 Q. And what -- Mr. Jones, do you 13 Objection. 14 remember exactly when that occurred, or 14 THE WITNESS: 15 essentially when that occurred? 15 With -- after she left Fannie 16 A. We started working on it in -- 16 Mae, she worked with CAM on the Zurich program 17 CAM started working on it at Richard Lawch and 17 and was -- that was for the Fannie Mae DUS, 18 Marialice's direction in the fall of '97, 18 and then she wrote her own policies, to my 19 right after the Metropolitan transaction 19 knowledge. She and probably -- she may have 20 closed, which was a milestone for Fannie Mae, 20 had some assistance from Eric and John at 21 and it went until August of 1998, July -- July 21 First Atlantic on the certificate policies, 22 of 1998, before Bay View pulled out. 22 but what I saw was good quality work. 23 Q. And please explain to -- why 23 EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS: 24 Marialice Williams' involvement was so 24 Q. Now, are you familiar with 25 critical to moving forward on your original 25 Mr. Craig Ott? 21 (Pages 78 to 81) ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES DC 1-800-441-3376 MD 1-800-539-6398 VA 1-800-752-8979 0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 23 of 52 Robert G. Jones Page 82 Page 84 1 THE WITNESS: 1 Q. And what were the fundamental 2 I can't hear the question. 2 allegations in your complaint against Fannie 3 (Court reporter reads back previous question) 3 Mae? What was the basis, in sort of laymen's 4 THE WITNESS: 4 terms -- 5 Much more so than I would like to 5 A. That Fannie Mae was not honoring 6 be. 6 the terms of the exclusive that had been 7 EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS: 7 promised us and was taking this insurance 8 Q. Now, were you familiar with 8 company to other insurance carriers. This 9 Mr. Ott's qualifications to broker this 9 insurance coverage to other insurance 10 business with Fannie Mae? 10 carriers. 11 THE WITNESS: 11 Q. So that if Fannie Mae at some 12 I don't understand the question. 12 point said that the reason they didn't do 13 MR. GRIFFITH: 13 business with Marialice was because you had an 14 Could you read back the question? 14 exclusive on this product, you would have to 15 (Court reporter reads back prior question) 15 say that that would not be true; is that 16 THE WITNESS: 16 right? 17 "Familiar" bothers me. When 17 MR. GRIFFITH: 18 Crump first introduced CAM to Craig Ott, he 18 Objection. 19 knew nothing about this particular insurance 19 THE WITNESS: 20 product. He had no knowledge, in my opinion, 20 I'm not following that. 21 of the insurance product that we developed, 21 MR. DANIELS: 22 and in turn tried to change it on his own to 22 Read the question back. If it 23 go around CAM to -- on several transactions. 23 doesn't work, I'll ask it again. 24 EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS: 24 (Court reporter reads back previous question) 25 Q. Now, earlier in your testimony 25 THE WITNESS: Page 83 Page 85 1 you stated that you believed you had an 1 I don't feel I am qualified to 2 exclusive agreement with Fannie Mae to do 2 answer your question. 3 credit enhancement using your insurance 3 EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS: 4 product; is that correct? 4 Q. Well, I mean, at some point, they 5 A. That is correct. 5 actually gave the business that you thought 6 Q. Now, did that belief prove to be 6 you were entitled to to others; isn't that 7 true? 7 correct? 8 A. In my opinion, we still have the 8 A. That is correct. They gave it to 9 exclusivity based on the agreements with 9 Craig Ott. 10 Richard Lawch, but the tweaking of MOUs at 10 Q. Now, can you tell us, for the 11 Fannie Mae, and then the pressure from 11 record, the amount of commission you received 12 Mr. Lawch for us to sign the MOU -- "Either, 12 from Fannie Mae pursuing the business that 13 sign it, or we are not going to do business 13 Marialice was not a part of? 14 with you." There was the exclusivity in that 14 A. I think that's probably in CAM's 15 MOU, and reduced it to the specific insurance 15 litigation and in documents that are 16 companies that were in the MOU, and then 16 disclosed, but I couldn't answer that 17 Mr. Lawch refused to do future MOUs with us. 17 question. 18 Q. In other words, in your opinion 18 Q. Would it be more or less than 19 at least, Mr. Lawch breached his commitments 19 three million dollars? 20 to CAM to do this business? 20 A. I am sure it's less than that. 21 A. In my opinion, yes. 21 It's in expert reports. 22 Q. And, in fact, you -- CAM sued 22 Q. Now -- 23 Craig Ott, as a party, and sued Fannie Mae; is 23 A. Or I am reasonably sure it's less 24 that correct? 24 than that. It would be in CAM's expert 25 A. That is correct. 25 reports. 22 (Pages 82 to 85) ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES DC 1-800-441-3376 MD 1-800-539-6398 VA 1-800-752-8979 0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 24 of 52 Robert G. Jones Page 86 Page 88 1 Q. Do you think it was more than two 1 was appalled to learn that there were -- was 2 million dollars? 2 the number of aggregation transactions that 3 A. I would have to refer to the 3 had -- that had been closed. I don't think 4 reports. 4 there was anything other than maybe something 5 Q. Wouldn't you agree that Marialice 5 that was -- you-all picked up in the CAM -- in 6 was unaware of the level of commissions that 6 the CAM litigation. 7 you received from Fannie Mae? 7 Q. Perhaps you said what I suggested 8 A. Probably so, yes. 8 to Conway Downing. 9 Q. And -- 9 Is that possible? 10 MS. GOLDFRANK: 10 THE WITNESS: 11 Harley, he wasn't finished with 11 I didn't hear the question. 12 his answer. 12 MR. GRIFFITH: 13 MR. DANIELS: 13 Can you repeat the question? 14 I'm sorry. 14 MR. DANIELS: 15 THE WITNESS: 15 Yes. 16 I think I said probably so, 16 EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS: 17 because she was not familiar with the volume 17 Q. You recall that I was trying to 18 of business in the aggregate -- that was being 18 bring -- sort of refresh your memory on a 19 done under aggregation that Grace Huebscher 19 conversation with Marialice held in the summer 20 and Richard Lawch had strategized and insured. 20 of 2006. 21 EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS: 21 Do you recall a conversation with 22 Q. And isn't it true that she only 22 Conway Downing in the late summer of 2006 23 became aware of this sometime this summer, 23 where you expressed similar sentiments 24 summer of 2006? 24 about -- 25 MR. GRIFFITH: 25 A. In the -- Conway Downing was in Page 87 Page 89 1 Objection. 1 Gulfport to -- and he -- I am not -- that must 2 THE WITNESS: 2 be where the CAM litigation files came up, and 3 I don't know. 3 that's -- perhaps that's where the numbers 4 EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS: 4 were generated, and because he went through 5 Q. Did she call you? Did you 5 the federal courthouse documents in 2006, and 6 receive a telephone call from her after she 6 that may be where that information came from. 7 began to review the CAM litigation files 7 Q. I mean, your comment or your -- I 8 raising the issue with you? 8 am trying to get at the comment you made to 9 A. I don't recall a telephone call. 9 Conway about Marialice not being happy about 10 There -- I believe -- there was an e-mail 10 what she's going to see in the CAM litigation 11 sometime that -- something about the -- either 11 file. 12 commissions or something in the litigation 12 MR. GRIFFITH: 13 with CAM, yes. That would have been -- 13 Objection. 14 something in the CAM litigation documents that 14 THE WITNESS: 15 I am assuming that you-all had. 15 I think Conway may have already 16 Q. And during the course of one of 16 had gotten those documents, or when we spoke. 17 those conversations, didn't you say to 17 I don't recall exactly how that happened. I 18 Marialice, "Marialice, I know you are going to 18 did have breakfast with Conway one morning 19 have a problem with what you see," or, "This 19 when he was in Gulfport, but the conversation 20 is going to surprise you," or, "I know you are 20 I had with Ms. Williams was before the CAM 21 going to have feelings about it"? Something 21 lawsuit and our -- after she -- the CAM 22 to that effect? 22 lawsuit litigation was going on, but it was -- 23 A. I don't think that was 2006. She 23 it was either 2001 or 2002, and she and I had 24 and I had a conversation not too long -- 24 the conversation about how much -- how many 25 probably in 2000 or 2001 when she and I -- she 25 aggregation transactions had been done, and 23 (Pages 86 to 89) ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES DC 1-800-441-3376 MD 1-800-539-6398 VA 1-800-752-8979 0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 25 of 52 Robert G. Jones Page 90 Page 92 1 she was just not -- she was not aware of 1 Mae entered into these contracts for the 2 those. She thought we had only done the MBS 2 products that you and Marialice were offering? 3 with "Met." 3 MR. GRIFFITH: 4 EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS: 4 Objection. 5 Q. Now, were you present at the 5 THE WITNESS: 6 fourth day of Marialice's deposition in 6 To my knowledge, Fannie Mae had 7 Washington in November of 2003? 7 never entered into a contract like the 8 A. Yes, I was. 8 CAM/Fannie Mae MOU. They never -- it had 9 Q. And do you recall Marialice's 9 never been done before. I can't specifically 10 testimony with regard to Richard Ross' 10 say how Fannie Mae otherwise entered into 11 attitude toward you? 11 those type of contracts that had never been 12 A. Yes, I do. 12 done. 13 Q. And what was that, to the extent 13 EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS: 14 that you remember? 14 Q. Now, it's true that Fannie Mae 15 A. Well, the attitude that -- which 15 did not issue a request for proposals for your 16 I couldn't -- had some difficulty believing, 16 product; is that right? That you were aware 17 Mr. Lawch referred to the -- to me as a 17 of. 18 "redneck" from Mississippi, and that 18 A. They did not specifically. No, 19 apparently it was common knowledge around 19 they did not. 20 Fannie Mae. 20 Q. And when was the first time you 21 Q. That that's how he regarded you? 21 approached Fannie Mae to make -- proposing 22 A. That is correct. 22 that business be done in this area of 23 MR. GRIFFITH: 23 credit-enhancement? 24 Harley, it's John Griffith here 24 A. You are going to have to repeat 25 for a second. How much longer do you have? 25 the question. Page 91 Page 93 1 MR. DANIELS: 1 Q. When was the first time that CAM 2 If I could put you on mute so I 2 made a proposal to Fannie Mae for 3 could confer with my colleague, I may be 3 credit-enhancement products? 4 toward one, two, or three questions. 4 A. In May of -- either February or 5 MR. GRIFFITH: 5 May of 1994 when I met with Marialice 6 Can we go off for five minutes? 6 Williams, Bill Batts from credit policy, and I 7 I just have to step out for two seconds. 7 think several people from Eichler-Fein, one of 8 MR. DANIELS: 8 the DUS lenders. 9 Why don't you re-call us, and 9 Q. Did Fannie Mae, at that time, 10 we'll be ready to go. 10 accept your proposal? 11 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 11 A. They -- the credit -- Marialice 12 Going off of the record. It's 12 Williams brought credit policy, a member of 13 12:06. This is videotape No. 3. 13 credit policy, who had been a mortgage banker, 14 (Brief Recess.) 14 or investment banker in New York, Bill 15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 15 Batts -- Bill Batts from Fannie Mae credit 16 We are back on the record. It's 16 policy says, "I like the proposal. Bring me a 17 12:13. This is videotape No. 3. 17 triple A -- bring Fannie Mae a triple-A-rated 18 EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS: 18 insurance carrier, and then -- and develop 19 Q. Mr. Jones, you've -- between, I 19 that policy with Fannie Mae and the insurance 20 would say 1993 and 2002, you sent off in an 20 companies, and I think we've got an 21 effort to secure business from Fannie Mae; is 21 execution." 22 that not correct? 22 Q. When? 23 A. That is correct. 23 A. Three years later. 24 Q. Now, would you describe for us 24 Q. So they didn't -- the process was 25 the process that you observed for how Fannie 25 different from you making a proposal and their 24 (Pages 90 to 93) ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES DC 1-800-441-3376 MD 1-800-539-6398 VA 1-800-752-8979 0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 26 of 52 Robert G. Jones Page 94 Page 96 1 accepting your proposal? 1 the -- in fact, there are some e-mails. I 2 A. That is correct. That was all 2 don't know where they are. They were in 3 product development. 3 disclosed documents, that discloses either a 4 Q. And during that process, in fact, 4 joint venture or an MWOB-owned business for 5 you made many, many proposals to Fannie Mae on 5 Marialice Williams. 6 this product; is that correct? 6 EXAMINATION BY MR. DANIELS: 7 A. There were many drafts of the 7 Q. Did you understand that that 8 policy. If each one of those is a proposal, 8 would enhance your ability to do business with 9 it was -- it was all part of product 9 Fannie Mae? 10 development with AIG, Fannie Mae, and CAM. 10 A. I believe that was an important 11 Q. But you would agree it's not a 11 part of it, yes. 12 simple -- you know, a simple contract proposal 12 Q. And do you know whether Marialice 13 where there is an offer and an acceptance, and 13 was ever designated an MWOB? 14 then you have a contract? 14 A. I do not know. I do not know. 15 A. That's correct. CAM was working 15 Q. After Marialice left Fannie Mae, 16 with Fannie Mae as a partner, and that's the 16 did you, after that, hear any discussion of 17 jargon, or how Richard Lawch identified CAM 17 the MWOB process in connection with what you 18 as -- that it was a partner. It was a 18 were trying to accomplish with Marialice? 19 partnership. 19 A. I can't answer that, because I 20 Q. And Marialice was not part of 20 don't recall, but I am sure that, in general 21 your partnership between Fannie Mae and CAM on 21 terms, that we all were thinking that this 22 the MCRI business; is that correct? 22 would enhance her business, and I don't think 23 A. No, Marialice Williams was an 23 she had any stockholders initially, so she 24 integral part of the development. 24 would have been a solely-owned MWOB business. 25 Q. After she left Fannie Mae? 25 MR. DANIELS: Page 95 Page 97 1 A. Oh, not after she left Fannie 1 Mr. Jones, I want to thank you 2 Mae, no. 2 for your transparent and truthful testimony 3 Q. Now, you used the term "MWOB" 3 today, and no further questions. 4 earlier in your testimony. 4 MR. HUNTER: 5 Do you know what those initials 5 I've got a couple of questions, 6 stand for? 6 if that's all right, or if you-all would 7 A. A woman -- 7 rather me wait till you-all get finished. 8 Q. Let me give it a try, and you 8 MR. GRIFFITH: 9 tell me whether -- 9 No, I think we're done. 10 A. No. MWOB is a minority 10 MR. HUNTER: 11 woman-owned business. 11 I have two questions to ask 12 Q. Minority business program? 12 Mr. Jones. 13 A. Well, in this, MWOB would have a 13 MR. DANIELS: 14 woman. 14 Who is speaking now? I am sorry. 15 Q. Owned business? 15 MR. HUNTER: 16 A. Yes. 16 This is Seth Hunter, counsel for 17 Q. And was it your understanding 17 Mr. Jones. 18 that part of the reason that Fannie Mae -- 18 MR. DANIELS: 19 that Lou Hoyes was proposing that Marialice be 19 Thank you, Mr. Hunter. 20 set up as an MWOB? 20 EXAMINATION BY MR. HUNTER: 21 MR. GRIFFITH: 21 Q. I just want to clarify a couple 22 Objection. 22 of things. 23 THE WITNESS: 23 Mr. Jones, when you left CAM 24 I was aware of conversations that 24 Financial Services as president and CEO, was 25 Marialice had with Lou Hoyes, and that was 25 that voluntary? 25 (Pages 94 to 97) ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES DC 1-800-441-3376 MD 1-800-539-6398 VA 1-800-752-8979 0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 27 of 52 Robert G. Jones Page 98 1 A. No. 2 Q. And when you were speaking 3 earlier of product development, and you were 4 working with Marialice Williams, was that 5 product development as a -- were you working 6 for CAM Financial Services, Incorporated 7 developing the product? 8 A. Was I working for CAM Financial 9 Services? 10 Q. Yes. 11 A. Absolutely. 12 MR. HUNTER: 13 That's all I have. 14 15 * * * 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 99 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 2 3 4 I, NANCY LAPORTE, Certified Court 5 Reporter, State of Louisiana, do hereby 6 certify that the above-mentioned witness, 7 after having been first duly sworn by me to 8 testify to the truth, did testify as 9 hereinabove set forth; 10 That the testimony was reported by me in 11 shorthand transcribed under my personal 12 direction and supervision, and is a true and 13 correct transcript, to the best of my ability 14 and understanding; 15 That I am not of counsel, not related to 16 counsel or the parties hereto, and not in any 17 way interested in the outcome of this matter. 18 19 20 21 22 NANCY LAPORTE 23 Certified Court Reporter State of Louisiana 24 25 26 (Pages 98 to 99) ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES DC 1-800-441-3376 MD 1-800-539-6398 VA 1-800-752-8979 0ae31a4e-e891-4cb9-849f-fd525208370c Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 28 of 52 Robert G. Jones Page 1 A agree 66:16 67:19 85:16 86:12 96:19 24:18 91:16 ability 68:11 96:8 72:11,23 73:1,2,8 answered 46:13 ASSOCIATION background 9:16 99:13 86:5 94:11 72:19 1:6 10:22 67:1 able 12:2 22:12 agreed 4:3 55:11 anybody 46:22 assume 11:16 Bacon 39:10 41:17 30:21 67:17 77:6 58:4 70:25 81:2 assuming 25:8,9 42:13,14 46:9 above-mentioned agreement 18:4 anymore 35:14 47:21 87:15 Bank 15:25 32:25 99:6 23:6 24:5,7,17,20 anyway 81:7 assurance 76:25 79:6 81:1 absolute 20:3 25:3,8 26:4,12,19 appalled 88:1 77:2 banker 78:24 93:13 Absolutely 70:2 26:21 27:5,9 28:1 apparently 39:11 Atlantic 33:11 93:14 98:11 28:15,16 29:3,6,6 90:19 36:18 37:19 73:12 bankers 40:22 accept 93:10 29:12,14 30:9,14 appear 32:17 81:21 banking 67:1,1 acceptance 94:13 30:16 31:6,8,19 APPEARANCES attached 23:24 banks 67:10,16 accepting 78:3 94:1 35:3,7,11 55:9 1:13 2:1 61:25 69:1,9 accomplish 67:5 76:3 83:2 appears 38:24 attachment 23:17 based 83:9 96:18 agreements 25:21 39:10,13 attitude 90:11,15 basically 66:23 accounting 68:24 25:25 26:11 28:4 applicable 72:13 attorney 2:3,4 13:7 basis 84:3 69:14 28:23 29:21 31:11 72:24 73:3 13:12 20:14 Bates 1:5 2:17,19 accurate 12:9,14 35:21 58:2 83:9 application 36:17 attorneys 1:17,21 2:24 3:2,4,6 16:22 26:3 27:3,17,22 agrees 24:9 apply 71:8 73:10 1:24 13:10 17:11 23:21 38:23 31:13 ahead 7:13 70:19 appointed 12:16 attract 77:15 48:19 49:19 61:24 accurately 50:1 AIG 12:5,9 14:1,11 appointment 30:5 attracting 78:14 62:1 acronym 18:18 14:12,21,22 15:20 30:19 August 33:25 34:1 Bates-stamped ACTION 1:3 28:10 52:5 54:11 appreciate 66:6 37:14,14 54:15 6:22 active 10:11 56:17 78:2 94:10 approached 92:21 55:5,6 79:21 Bathrus 1:3,18 actual 34:22,25 AIG's 14:19 appropriate 14:18 author 14:16 Batts 93:6,15,15 acumen 44:9 al 1:6 approval 78:1 automobile 27:1,14 Bay 15:24,24 16:3 addition 56:17 Alan 80:7 approved 38:15 available 69:13 16:7 77:21,25 additional 77:16 Alexander 1:23 approximately Avenue 1:20 78:12,23,25 79:5 address 6:8 allegations 19:25 65:2 80:12 aware 9:1 12:21 79:5,5,22 administering 4:23 20:7,21,21 84:2 April 1:11 5:5 20:25 25:1 30:4 beat 79:8 affordable 69:20 alleged 19:16 area 45:25 65:19 35:9 55:20 59:2 began 9:11 64:25 aforementioned alleges 11:22 66:12,23 92:22 61:7 86:23 90:1 87:7 4:5 allow 18:5 19:17 areas 68:12 92:16 95:24 Beginning 36:10 afterward 42:16 amended 2:18 arena 10:10 a.m 1:11 belief 83:6 Agencies 10:4 16:18,22 asked 22:7 26:17 believe 6:17 10:19 America 67:10 30:20 32:9 34:3 B 16:16 17:5,9 agency 10:25 11:12 agent 17:25 18:5,12 American 40:4 36:14 41:23 54:22 B 5:23 21:22 22:24 24:22 19:18 55:13 52:4 74:15 77:6 79:1 back 9:9 10:5 22:10 30:17 34:16 36:18 aggregate 86:18 amount 33:4 73:11 asking 25:12 32:5 22:12 31:2 33:4 37:6 39:8 40:6 aggregation 19:3,6 78:7 85:11 63:13 75:23 36:9 40:13 42:16 43:5 50:4,4 64:20 38:8,10,11 39:23 annual 41:7 ASLICK 14:20 45:17 58:19 61:19 73:13 87:10 96:10 72:14 86:19 88:2 answer 4:16 7:13 asset 40:6,11 66:7 67:24 68:1 believed 57:1 83:1 89:25 20:4 29:8 31:4 assistance 81:20 69:18 70:16 72:8 believing 90:16 ago 20:2 60:22 35:19 63:8 68:21 associated 49:8 75:1 78:20 82:3 best 31:9 37:14 70:21 75:20 85:2 Associates 23:10 82:14,15 84:22,24 99:13 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES DC 1-800-441-3376 MD 1-800-539-6398 VA 1-800-752-8979 Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 29 of 52 Robert G. Jones Page 2 Betty 47:5,13 47:19 57:7,9,15 78:24 79:17 81:16 81:21 99:1 comments 61:3 bid 30:11 57:15 62:22 65:1 82:18,23 83:20,22 certificates 32:23 commercial 32:23 Bill 93:6,14,15 65:5,11 76:10 87:7,13,14 88:5,6 32:24 32:24 33:5 37:11 billion 51:7,8 82:10 83:13,20 89:2,10,20,21 certification 4:12 67:10,16 69:1 binder 78:3 84:13 85:5,12 93:1 94:10,15,17 certified 2:10 4:21 commission 24:10 bit 29:2 37:1 38:9 86:18 91:21 92:22 94:21 97:23 98:6 5:7 99:4,23 26:22 27:10 85:11 48:13 58:13 94:22 95:11,12,15 98:8 certify 99:6 commissions 26:8 Bob 2:20,25 3:2 96:4,8,22,24 CAM's 14:7 19:25 change 82:22 86:6 87:12 5:19 7:14 23:20 buying 76:18 20:13 24:16 25:10 changes 14:18 commitment 18:2 38:25 39:20 48:18 33:12 39:22 55:8 68:23 commitments 67:13 74:2 C 56:4,21 57:13 changing 72:2 83:19 boss 45:3 call 22:8 37:16 85:14,24 changings 69:13 committed 58:5 bothers 82:17 69:23,25 71:15 CAM/Fannie 92:8 characterization common 24:6 bottom 39:19 74:8 87:5,6,9 capacity 33:14 27:4,22 26:20 27:8 90:19 Bovis 50:15 called 11:13 15:12 capital 15:24 16:3 charge 80:10 companies 10:13 breach 35:2,7,10 22:15 40:6,11 39:12 50:14,16 charter 27:1,14 19:14 22:23 34:3 breached 18:3 71:3 61:5 68:24 76:14 34:14,15,15 37:20 52:9 53:12 81:11 83:19 calling 75:6 77:16 78:23 79:5 Chuck 75:19,22,23 83:16 93:20 break 35:23 37:2 calls 43:9 captive 23:1 27:2 Civil 1:3 4:7 company 7:18 10:9 breakfast 89:18 CAM 7:3,6,11,16 27:15,18 33:8 claimed 19:21 13:13 14:21 22:15 Brian 1:15 5:22 7:23,24 8:2,5,6,12 36:20,20 47:23 clarify 36:13 97:21 22:22,24 23:25 Brief 36:7 58:17 8:15,19,23 9:2,5 54:13,22 55:1,4 clause 30:23 76:1,8 24:8 34:24 36:18 61:17 91:14 9:13 10:18 14:6 58:25 73:3 clauses 77:9 47:23 52:2 54:12 bring 56:16 88:18 14:14,16,24 15:4 carrier 93:18 clean 31:3 56:14 84:8 93:16,17 15:11,20 16:8,11 carriers 52:16 clear 32:2 compensate 17:16 bringing 28:13 17:7,16,23,24 58:10 84:8,10 clients 53:10 17:23 24:9 broad 19:8,12 21:5 18:2,5,11 19:17 carry 77:16 close 16:1,8 37:13 complaint 2:18 35:10 19:21 20:13,14 case 16:3,4 48:4,7 77:22 11:18,21 16:18,22 broker 9:13 24:5 23:5 24:1,3,5,7,9 cash 38:16 closed 11:25 79:20 17:6 19:16,25 51:18 76:17 82:9 24:11,13 25:1,20 cast 30:8,19 80:25 88:3 84:2 brokerage 7:18,19 26:14,21 27:5,9 casualty 10:9 clue 80:8 complete 22:20 9:17 23:12 24:20 28:2,22 29:3,5 categorized 71:2 CLVS 2:7 completely 8:24 25:8 26:11 29:21 30:6,11,14,20 Caucasian 64:11 Coast 11:13,15 23:10 35:21 57:21 65:13 31:6,15,22 32:10 64:13,16,19,23 22:12 concern 39:11 brokers 25:25 32:13 35:2,6,13 caused 70:5 Coastal 10:7,8 concerned 45:2 broker's 11:11 35:16 36:16,22 caveat 27:21 colleague 91:3 concluding 1:11 brought 15:5 20:18 37:5,12,25 43:16 CC-ing 2:25 38:25 collect 78:8 confer 91:3 26:13 28:11,19 44:9 53:7,12,14 cell 22:9 college 10:2,3 conference 37:16 34:14 93:12 54:8 55:12 56:1 century 80:13 COLUMBIA 1:1 40:23 41:1,7,8,17 building 8:23 57:1,8,16,18,22 CEO 97:24 combining 67:14 42:2 45:15 46:3,5 business 8:16 9:6 57:24 58:5 62:22 certain 33:10 69:7 come 47:6 54:22 46:7 10:1 11:15 14:11 64:21,22 65:5,7 Certainly 66:4 comfort 76:7 77:7 confirm 55:11 14:12,21 24:1,4,6 67:13 69:17 76:2 75:18 coming 31:19 57:7 conjunction 53:23 25:21 32:7 33:18 76:10,13,18 77:12 certificate 22:23 commencing 1:11 connection 6:15 39:22 43:17 44:9 77:14,23 78:7,13 33:12,16 73:11 comment 89:7,8 24:2 96:17 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES DC 1-800-441-3376 MD 1-800-539-6398 VA 1-800-752-8979 Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 30 of 52 Robert G. Jones Page 3 considering 61:2 80:13 83:4,5,24 credit 15:7 18:18 day-to-day 13:17 37:4,22 65:15,17 consummated 83:25 85:7,8 18:19,20 71:3,17 DC 1:20 68:3 94:3,10,24 23:13 26:1 36:15 90:22 91:22,23 71:21 83:3 93:6 deal 26:13 98:3,5 contacts 69:18 94:2,6,15,22 93:11,12,13,15 dealing 68:15 developments contained 19:25 99:13 credit-enhancem... death 21:16,24 75:12,15 76:21 content 47:3 correspondence 69:25 70:5 71:22 79:8 different 25:25 contents 26:18 26:9 72:13 92:23 93:3 debacle 19:15 46:4 61:1 93:25 continue 32:6 costs 77:24 CREF 40:23 41:7 December 16:17,17 difficulty 90:16 33:17 counsel 4:4 5:11 45:14 46:5,7 17:8 dime 78:8 continued 2:1 3:1 6:17,25 97:16 critical 79:25 80:3Defendant 1:21,24 direct 45:3 66:5 33:8 99:15,16 Crump 56:16 Defendants 1:7 direction 13:18 contract 92:7 94:12 COUNSELOR 2:3 57:19,23 58:4,6,9Defendant's 2:16 54:17,19 55:6 94:14 couple 48:14 97:5 76:16,17 82:18 deficiency 40:6,12 56:12,18 79:18 contracts 92:1,11 97:21 current 8:11 Delegated 49:8 99:12 controlled 25:5 course 87:16 customer 28:11 delivered 78:6 director 79:7 conversation 21:24 court 1:1 2:10 4:21 customers 24:14 79:10 disagree 27:23 22:2 40:25 41:19 5:8,25 63:19 64:5 28:8 33:21 77:6 demise 16:7 disclosed 85:16 41:21 42:4,13,17 66:1,6,7 67:23 C.D 6:21 departed 60:9,11 96:3 42:19 46:8 52:5,6 68:1 70:16 78:20 depending 61:3,4 discloses 96:3 60:7 62:21 87:24 82:3,15 84:24 D deposition 1:8 2:21 discuss 19:24 44:8 88:19,21 89:19,24 99:4,23 D 1:5 2:14 74:2 4:5,17 5:2,3 20:17 52:15 55:16 conversations 41:4 courthouse 89:5 Dance 47:5,13,16 25:16 33:10 60:24 discussed 20:20 42:5,9,22 43:2,6 cover 19:6,8 Daniels 1:15 5:21 90:6 25:24 39:6 52:9 43:11 45:10,20 coverage 18:8 5:22 63:12,13,16 Depo-Vue 5:8 52:14 57:10 58:22 47:2,6,10,12 32:23 33:12,16,22 64:2,9 66:3,10 derivative 18:8 discussing 48:25 55:24 56:10,22 34:2 36:20 39:16 68:2 69:21 70:12 describe 11:3,9 50:3 60:7 59:18 60:4 62:24 49:23 51:14 53:1 70:20 71:14 72:10 18:23 26:17 91:24 discussion 22:4,6 63:1 87:17 95:24 53:13,17 54:21 72:18,22 73:9,18 described 28:1 40:14 41:15 50:11 Conway 88:8,22,25 60:21 61:3 65:16 73:25 74:6,13,19 designated 96:13 58:24 96:16 89:9,15,18 69:17 78:3 84:9 75:3 78:15 79:12 designed 18:25 discussions 40:15 copied 55:3 covering 19:14 81:23 82:7,24 19:8 40:21 41:24 45:4 copy 16:25 39:12 84:21 85:3 86:13 determine 70:14 46:15 56:7,19 corporate 76:10 co-brokerage 23:6 86:21 87:4 88:14 devastating 77:12 disparaging 43:21 corporately 69:11 24:16 25:3 26:19 88:16 90:4 91:1,8 develop 12:18 44:3 47:16 60:1 correct 7:3 10:20 26:21 27:9,25 91:18 92:13 96:6 13:21,22 69:16 63:2 16:12,13 18:14 28:3,15,23 29:6 96:25 97:13,18 93:18 DISTRICT 1:1,1 21:1 30:17 32:3 29:14 30:16 31:8 Danny 3:7 23:11 developed 11:24 document 16:21,24 41:14 42:20 43:5 35:3,7,11 53:12 24:19 25:24 39:20 12:8 14:9 33:15 17:1 24:15 38:23 47:14 50:17 56:8 co-brokers 53:8 40:3 52:5,6 75:9 58:10 72:12 82:21 39:2,3,5,5 48:22 57:20 58:7,8 Craig 19:20 61:2 date 21:17 35:15 developing 14:4,8 53:3 61:24 62:1,3 59:13 62:9,14,17 64:18 81:25 82:18 dated 2:19,23 3:2 36:19 98:7 62:4 76:12 62:18 64:14,24 83:23 85:9 23:17 29:25 48:18 development 9:9 documents 6:15,19 65:6 66:18,20,24 created 11:24 12:7 74:3 9:10,11 10:14 6:21,22 7:1,2 8:24 67:8 68:5 71:3,9 16:6 day 1:11 90:6 14:13 19:6 24:12 25:10 48:14 85:15 71:18 73:17 75:10 creation 12:17 days 9:10 33:20 34:8,21 87:14 89:5,16 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES DC 1-800-441-3376 MD 1-800-539-6398 VA 1-800-752-8979 Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 31 of 52 Robert G. Jones Page 4 96:3 efforts 17:24 exactly 18:22 79:14 17:24 66:17 81:6 19:3,11,17,21 doing 8:16 34:20 Eichler-Fein 15:9 89:17 explain 79:23 20:15,18,22 21:13 65:5,5 80:17 21:12 93:7 EXAMINATION exposure 38:20 22:25 23:1,1,2 dollar 16:4 either 10:24 16:9 6:6 7:21 36:11 expressed 88:23 25:10 26:16 29:18 dollars 85:19 86:2 21:16 23:8 25:3 58:21 61:21 63:12 extent 33:10 90:13 30:4,23 33:2,7,22 door 54:11 32:19 39:12 45:13 64:2,9 66:10 68:2 Eye 1:23 34:5 37:3 38:7,12 Downing 88:8,22 47:15 60:12 65:8 69:21 70:20 71:14 e-mail 2:19,24 3:2 38:15,17 39:9,23 88:25 83:12 87:11 89:23 72:10,22 73:9,18 3:4,6 23:16,17,24 40:18 41:6,10 draft 15:14 26:10 93:4 96:3 75:3 78:15 79:12 38:24 39:19 48:17 44:23 45:7,14,17 drafts 14:15,15,17 elaborate 48:2 81:23 82:7,24 52:23 60:17,21,23 46:17,23,25 47:9 14:19 80:23,24 53:10 85:3 86:21 87:4 62:7 74:2 75:8,16 53:11,18,23,25 94:7 elements 76:25 88:16 90:4 91:18 76:19 87:10 54:1,5,17,19,21 dried 69:8 employed 10:4,12 92:13 96:6 97:20 e-mails 26:8 39:18 54:23 55:9,11,13 drum 47:19 employee 11:1 examined 6:4 42:10 45:12 55:3 55:18 56:8,20,21 duly 6:4 99:7 44:23 excerpt 2:21 16:24 96:1 56:25 57:2,8,11 DUS 15:5,8 19:9 enabled 31:20 25:15 57:14,23,24 59:3 21:11 22:25 28:7 encompass 28:18 excerpts 2:17 17:3 F 60:10,11,23,25 33:20,21 34:2,9 51:9 exclusive 17:25 face 73:11 62:16,20 63:3,7 37:2,7 39:6,16 enhance 96:8,22 18:12 55:12,17 fact 19:10 22:9 65:1,3,7,7,12,14 41:18 47:20 48:13 enhancement 71:3 56:5,21 57:2,4,6 23:13 54:4 56:14 66:15 67:5 68:11 48:24 49:3,16,23 71:6,8,17 83:3 57:18 58:9 83:2 66:4 68:10,10 68:15 69:5,8,11 49:24 50:2,7 entailed 26:22 84:6,14 76:23 83:22 94:4 69:16 70:4 71:16 51:13 52:20 53:22 27:10 29:9 48:16 exclusively 58:4,6 96:1 71:19 72:14 75:13 53:24,25 54:2,6 49:7 exclusivity 83:9,14 failing 18:4 76:3,6,11,22,24 58:23 65:4,6,8 enter 31:16 32:14 excuse 17:12 fair 30:13 31:4,10 77:4,5,10 78:4,6,9 71:9,16,22 81:17 entered 26:5 29:14 execution 68:8 51:20 52:18 67:3 78:25 79:7,10,20 93:8 92:1,7,10 69:12 80:5,9,20 69:23 80:1,6,18 81:4,5,9 D.C 1:17,24 24:1 entire 75:16 76:9 93:21 fall 29:19 79:18 81:15,17 82:10 entities 14:3 18:6 exhibit 3:6 16:20 false 44:14 63:5 83:2,11,23 84:2,5 E 19:18,20 17:11 23:16 29:23 familiar 21:3,5 84:11 85:12 86:7 E 2:14 entitled 16:21 85:6 38:22 48:17 49:19 22:14 23:10 38:2 90:20 91:21,25 earlier 59:17,24 entity 25:5 52:22 61:23 62:6 44:19 59:9 60:16 92:6,10,14,21 74:10,12,15 82:25 equity 76:13 78:14 73:20 60:16 81:24 82:8 93:2,9,15,17,19 95:4 98:3 Eric 81:20 Exhibits 2:15 3:1 82:17 86:17 94:5,10,16,21,25 early 10:6,15 11:14 escape 13:4 exit 31:25 family 48:11 95:1,18 96:9,15 15:10,23 21:12 Esq 1:23 expand 57:4 76:10 Fannie 1:19,21,25 far 34:17 45:1 31:5 41:13 60:18 Esquire 1:15,15,19 expanded 19:5 5:14,16 6:23 Farm 10:4,6 65:9,16 80:14 5:9 51:18 10:14 11:19 12:2 February 2:23 effect 26:9 35:12,15 essentially 79:15 expense 17:24 12:10,11,12,14,15 29:25 30:13 31:5 56:10 77:11 87:22 estate 50:15 66:14 experience 9:20 12:22,25 13:10,22 31:5 32:1 93:4 efficiency 67:15 et 1:6 11:4,9 65:19 13:25,25 14:5,10 federal 1:6 4:6 89:5 80:4 event 26:22 27:10 66:12,22,25 67:2 14:25 15:5,8,17 fee 36:17 efficient 68:8 everybody's 55:21 experiences 67:14 15:19,20,25 16:2 feel 85:1 efficiently 68:12 55:22 expert 85:21,24 16:6,11,15 17:7 feelings 87:21 effort 76:9 91:21 evidence 4:19 expertise 9:18 18:1,3,3,5,12 19:1 fees 36:21 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES DC 1-800-441-3376 MD 1-800-539-6398 VA 1-800-752-8979 Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 32 of 52 Robert G. 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Jones Page 6 include 19:2 27:19 insurer 12:4 job 10:2 kind 17:15 32:7 lawsuit 16:11,15 included 61:25 insurers 51:25 jog 50:11 47:9 77:9 20:19 21:1 89:21 including 23:19 insuring 12:4 26:25 jogged 41:16 knew 38:7 44:24 89:22 incoming 68:7 27:13 41:18 57:8 John 1:5 81:20 82:19 lawyers 13:3,4 incorporated 7:12 71:4 90:24 know 20:4,23 21:6 14:11,19,20 7:17 8:6 98:6 integral 94:24 join 76:13 22:20,21 23:14 lay 22:22 38:19 incurred 77:24 interest 24:4 40:5 joined 32:11 25:23 26:1,6,9 49:23 53:22 67:16 indicated 5:6 30:22 51:13 76:18 joint 26:18 31:17 30:24 35:10,13,18 laying 49:7,21 67:8 49:6 76:18 interested 99:17 32:11,14 96:4 43:3,6,8 52:14,17 laymen's 84:3 indicates 24:7 51:6 interface 24:14 Jonathan 1:19 5:14 55:2 56:9 59:6,22 lead 12:13 indication 24:21 intermediary 78:25 Jones 1:9 2:4,17,19 60:19 87:3,18,20 learn 88:1 individual 29:11 interrogatory 2:20,21,22,23,24 94:12 95:5 96:2 learned 80:21 32:17 26:16,17 28:2 2:25 3:2,2,4,7 5:3 96:12,14,14 Lease 50:15 industry 10:22 49:4,15 5:20 6:3,7,9,14 knowledge 31:9 leaves 78:9 11:10 introduce 5:11 7:5,10,10,22 44:11 57:9 66:9 leaving 29:18 30:22 information 89:6 14:24 11:17 12:6 13:24 81:1,19 82:20 56:23,25 57:11 initially 96:23 introduced 34:15 15:18 16:10,19,20 90:19 92:6 75:13 76:22 77:9 initials 95:5 82:18 17:2 18:9,10 known 21:8 68:13 Lederer 1:15 5:22 inner-city 67:9 introduction 21:11 19:16 21:3 22:14 69:2,7,12 Lee 30:10 68:6 65:14 23:16,20 25:15,16 left 30:4 40:18 41:5 insurance 7:18 9:6 investment 78:24 26:2 29:13,22,23 L 41:10 43:4 45:7,8 9:13,16,20 10:1,4 93:14 35:23 36:12 38:2 L 1:19 4:1 45:11,14,17 46:17 10:9,10,12,13,22 Investments 50:15 38:21,22,25 39:20 label 38:23 46:25 56:20 59:4 11:1,5,9,13 15:13 involve 50:18 48:17,18,21 54:3 labeled 49:20 61:24 62:16,19 63:3,7 15:19 18:2,7,13 involved 12:22 58:22 59:24 61:22 62:1 76:5 81:9,15 18:16,19,21 19:2 13:10,15,17 14:3 61:23 62:6,11 language 31:11 94:25 95:1 96:15 19:3,14,19,22 14:13,22 15:3,4,6 63:14,17 64:3 Laporte 2:9 4:21 97:23 24:6,8 26:23 27:2 34:16 37:25 38:1 66:5,22 67:13,25 5:9 99:4,22 legal 5:7 56:3 27:11,15 33:9,13 45:12,20 51:4,22 68:21 70:14 72:11 large 51:2 Lend 50:14 34:3,6 36:20 51:23 52:1 54:24 74:2 75:4 79:13 late 60:18 65:8 lender 15:5,8 21:11 38:19 40:4,12 55:24 59:1 70:4 91:19 97:1,12,17 88:22 53:25 54:6 71:22 41:2 49:22 52:2,9 77:1 97:23 law 1:9 2:3 4:8 lenders 39:16 52:16 53:1,11,13 involvement 13:25 Judge 1:5 Lawch 1:25 5:17 49:17,23 50:7,8 53:17 54:23 55:1 78:22 79:24 July 30:5 34:1 13:14 16:5 44:20 50:13,19,22 51:5 55:14 56:14 57:25 involves 49:16 56:25 79:21,21 44:22 45:5,11 51:13,19,22 52:20 58:10,25 65:16 involving 37:3 39:7 June 8:10 33:25 46:15 55:25 56:1 52:20,24 53:22,24 66:23 67:2,6 48:13 57:15 58:23 56:24 60:18 56:18 60:5,12 54:5 57:6 65:4,6,8 69:18,24 70:6 65:14 69:24 75:12 62:13,21 63:1,6 93:8 71:1,7 73:4 80:6 76:21 K 68:13 69:1,7 78:2 lender's 54:2 80:20,22,24 81:11 issue 67:21 68:12 Karl 2:7 5:7 78:11,17 79:17 letter 2:23 23:23 82:19,21 83:3,15 87:8 92:15 Katrina 8:19,25 80:9 83:10,12,17 24:24 29:24 30:3 84:7,8,9,9 93:18 9:3 21:18,25 22:3 83:19 86:20 90:17 30:21,25 31:12 93:19 J keep 76:9 94:17 77:7 insure 18:25 38:19 January 2:22 25:17 Ken 39:10 41:17 Lawch's 56:12 61:3 let's 61:13 70:14 insured 86:20 jargon 94:17 42:13 46:9 Lawrence 79:6 level 39:12 71:5,5 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES DC 1-800-441-3376 MD 1-800-539-6398 VA 1-800-752-8979 Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 34 of 52 Robert G. Jones Page 7 76:7 81:5 86:6 lost 22:9 62:17,20 63:3,7 77:5,13 78:8,17 mentioned 10:17 levels 19:1,9 lot 77:24,24 80:21 65:1,4,7,7,12,14 79:1,24 80:12 12:19,24 34:19 license 11:12 29:10 Lots 13:3 66:15 67:5 68:11 84:13 85:13 86:5 42:1 57:12 78:11 29:10 Lou 2:23 13:19 68:15 69:5,11,16 87:18,18 88:19 merely 12:3 licensed 23:25 29:24 30:21 37:16 70:4 71:16,19 89:9 92:2 93:5,11 merger 67:5 71:1 life 10:10 43:1 57:3 75:24 75:13 76:3,6,11 94:20,23 95:19,25 met 21:10 90:3 light 75:11 95:19,25 76:22 77:4,5,10 96:5,12,15,18 93:5 line 25:18 loudly 59:23 78:4,6,9,25 79:8 98:4 Metropolitan lines 11:11 14:21 Louisiana 1:10 79:11,20 80:1,6 Marialice's 67:20 32:25 33:5 37:13 29:9,10 2:10 4:23 5:5 80:18 81:4,5,9,16 79:18 90:6,9 79:19 80:25 listed 52:21 99:5,23 81:17 82:10 83:2 mark 38:22 48:17 mezzanine 39:12 litigation 6:23 7:3 low 68:6 83:11,23 84:3,5 marked 16:20 53:1 71:5 85:15 87:7,12,14 low-income 68:4 84:11 85:12 86:7 29:23 61:23 73:20 mid 41:13 88:6 89:2,10,22 90:20 91:21 92:1 75:5 middle 79:10 little 18:23 29:2 M 92:6,8,10,14,21 market 65:20 mid-city 68:6 37:1 38:9 48:12 M 2:2 93:2,9,15,17,19 66:19 69:25 71:2 milestone 79:20 58:13 Mac 66:15 69:11 94:5,10,16,21,25 marketing 31:22 million 16:4 85:19 LLC 22:16,19 Mae 1:19,21,25 95:2,18 96:9,15 57:5 77:5 79:7 86:2 24:18 25:4 28:6 5:14,16 6:23 Mae's 13:25 19:3 marketplace 68:9 minority 95:10,12 29:4 31:7,16 10:14 11:19 12:2 38:7 69:8 72:14 69:4,19 minutes 91:6 34:24 35:4,8 12:10,11,12,14,15 Magazine 1:10 5:4 marking 23:15 Mississippi 1:9 2:4 40:17 42:1,7,24 12:22,25 13:10,23 main 45:19 25:15 6:10 90:18 43:13,19,24 44:4 13:25 14:5,10,25 major 66:17 matter 6:16 99:17 Mitigation 22:15 44:16 45:6 46:16 15:5,8,17,19,20 majority 51:9 MBS 39:24 90:2 22:19,21 23:4,7,8 46:24 53:7 62:14 15:25 16:2,7,12 make-up 22:20 MBW 74:8 24:17 25:4 27:4 LLP 1:22 16:15 17:8 18:1,3 making 55:4 60:1 McGlinchey 1:10 28:5,21,24 29:4 loan 34:15 81:3,6 18:3,5,12 19:1,11 80:3 93:25 MCRI 18:1,7,13,15 31:7,16 32:10,20 loans 27:1,1,14,14 19:17,21 20:15,18 Mari 43:2 19:19,22 38:18 34:24 35:3,8 33:5 38:12,13,14 20:22 21:13 22:25 Marialice 1:3,18 40:8 55:14 57:15 36:16,22 37:6 38:16,17 48:13 23:1,2,3 25:10 2:19,23 5:23 58:4,6 94:22 39:7 40:17 41:25 58:23 68:12 77:25 26:16 29:18 30:5 13:20,21 15:25 mean 24:11 40:1 42:7,23 43:12,18 81:3 30:23 32:19 33:2 16:2 21:4 23:9,12 70:3 75:14 85:4 43:23 44:4,15 lobby 45:19 33:7,22 34:5 37:3 23:18 24:18 25:4 89:7 45:6 46:16,24 locate 21:19 53:17 37:8,17 38:12,15 28:23 29:24 30:15 means 27:17 39:25 53:7,19 60:5 locates 24:7 38:17 39:9,23 30:20 32:14 33:15 51:16 62:14 long 9:5,7 20:2 40:18 41:6,10 37:12 39:8 40:16 meeting 15:7 42:2 mod 68:7 21:8 33:17 60:22 44:23 45:7,14,17 41:5,10,25 42:6 65:3 modifying 40:8 87:24 46:17,23,25 47:9 42:13,15,23 43:4 member 64:13,16 months 15:24 longer 69:12 90:25 53:11,18,24,25 43:7,12 45:3,5,13 64:19 93:12 29:17,17 30:7 look 25:17 39:2 54:1,5,17,19,21 45:15 46:6,7,15 members 10:18 77:23 50:10 62:2 54:23 55:9,11,13 46:23 47:4,7,19 64:22 Moore 30:10 looking 34:1 40:7 55:18 56:8,20,21 48:10 50:22 55:24 memo 74:1 morning 89:18 looks 39:18 56:25 57:2,8,11 56:7 62:13 68:16 memory 13:8 50:9 mortgage 1:6 7:19 loss 12:3,4 18:8 57:14,23,24 59:3 71:20 73:12 75:13 50:12 88:18 9:16 13:6,12 19:10,15 39:13 60:10,11,23,25 75:23,25 76:21 memory's 42:25 22:23 32:25 33:4 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES DC 1-800-441-3376 MD 1-800-539-6398 VA 1-800-752-8979 Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 35 of 52 Robert G. Jones Page 8 40:22 41:2 50:16 Ness 1:16 occurred 40:21 1:22 permission 32:22 65:13,15,20 66:25 never 25:11 92:7,8 42:9 47:10 79:14 33:1 67:1,6 69:24 71:1 92:9,11 79:15 P person 12:13,16,20 93:13 new 1:10 5:4 9:1 offer 30:12 94:13 P 4:1 14:14 44:25 63:18 mortgages 27:20 56:13 93:14 offered 30:5 package 77:14 64:4 80:5 67:7,17 69:10 Newman 2:20 offering 92:2 pads 56:3 personal 78:22 78:5 79:10 23:19 43:2,3,7 offhand 59:16 page 16:21,23 99:11 mortgage-backed 47:1,3,13,15 55:7 offices 1:9 47:9 17:11 49:19 51:11 perspective 12:10 11:25 Noble 3:3 48:19 officiated 4:23 52:22 34:6 69:16 77:3 mother 21:17,24 51:21 OFHEO 61:4 paid 16:9 phone 17:19 22:9 MOU 83:12,15,16 non-compete 30:23 Oh 95:1 pair 54:4 picked 88:5 92:8 76:1,8,24 77:9 okay 22:7 44:1 62:5 Palmer 1:9 6:9 picture 41:8 MOUs 55:19,20 non-Fannie 32:18 Once 55:18 paragraph 11:18 place 1:9 6:10 56:13 83:10,17 37:8,17 ones 51:2 52:15 11:21 17:15 23:23 36:24 41:4 move 76:2,6 North 40:4 52:4 59:9,11 30:2 50:10 51:11 Plaintiff 1:4,17 moving 73:19 Nos 2:19 3:2,4 open 54:11 69:18 52:21 11:24 79:25 note 72:1 operation 8:24 Parish 4:22 Plaintiff's 3:5 75:5 multi-family 7:19 notes 55:23 56:1,2 opinion 55:22 part 4:18 28:14,17 players 12:12 13:6 18:17,18,20 November 90:7 56:12 80:3 81:7,8 29:12 31:18 33:9 plays 24:11 38:14 44:25 65:13 number 11:1 12:11 82:20 83:8,18,21 41:13 60:24 66:17 please 5:11,25 6:8 65:15 66:14 81:4 14:23 16:22 26:10 opinions 80:16 77:14 85:13 94:9 17:22 23:23 42:15 mute 91:2 74:14,18 88:2 opportunities 30:6 94:20,24 95:18 62:3 66:4 70:14 MWOB 31:21,21 numbered 17:12 30:19 96:11 70:22 75:21 79:23 57:12 95:3,10,13 numbers 23:21 opportunity 52:25 partially 74:9 PLLC 1:10 2:3 95:20 96:13,17,24 48:19 73:21 89:3 81:10 particular 33:14 point 8:1 12:16,19 MWOB-owned number-two 44:25 opposed 12:3 28:24 51:22 53:16 67:21 14:14 15:2 16:10 96:4 NW 1:20,23 order 17:16,21,23 69:2 82:19 20:1 26:2 51:3,14 MYERS 1:22 N.W 1:16 organization 45:1 parties 4:4 99:16 80:5 84:12 85:4 original 46:11 partner 76:14 policies 33:14 N O 60:23 79:25 78:14 94:16,18 81:18,21 N 2:14 4:1 O 4:1 Orleans 1:10 4:22 partnership 94:19 policy 15:7,14,16 name 5:6 6:8 10:8 oath 4:24 5:4 94:21 33:15 36:20 40:9 names 13:4 Objection 70:8,18 other's 24:4 party 12:13 13:19 40:11 65:16 71:7 Nancy 2:9 4:21 5:9 71:11 72:17,17 Ott 19:20 61:2 14:9 43:9 49:14 71:21 93:6,12,13 99:4,22 73:6,15 77:19 64:18 81:25 82:18 83:23 93:16,19 94:8 NATIONAL 1:6 81:13 84:18 87:1 83:23 85:9 passion 67:20 pools 26:25 27:13 Nationwide 11:1 89:13 92:4 95:22 Ott's 82:9 Paul 13:5,11 70:6 15:12 objections 4:14 outcome 99:17 pay 28:12 portfolio 28:8 nature 65:10 objective 67:12 outside 14:5,10 paying 26:22 27:10 32:25 33:7 38:18 need 78:13 obligation 49:24 33:7 pen-and-ink 14:18 49:25 77:22 78:2 needed 26:23 27:11 observe 81:10 overall 29:12 people 14:11,22,23 portfolios 34:2 77:15 observed 91:25 owned 66:14 95:15 15:7 23:19 45:21 53:23 69:5 negotiated 72:24 obvious 45:21 ownership 24:3 68:14 71:21 93:7 possibility 50:25 negotiating 57:3 obviously 77:12 30:6 percent 39:14 possible 88:9 negotiations 30:8 occasion 21:21 O'MELVENY period 78:10 potential 20:21 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES DC 1-800-441-3376 MD 1-800-539-6398 VA 1-800-752-8979 Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 36 of 52 Robert G. Jones Page 9 21:1 product 9:8,10,11 27:12,13 28:9 quote 26:20 79:4 receive 6:14 87:6 practically 13:4 10:14 12:17 13:22 59:3 92:15 94:5 received 85:11 86:7 preliminary 50:21 14:12 15:16 16:6 proposing 71:16 R receiving 63:15 presence 71:20 19:6 33:19 34:7 76:11 92:21 95:19 race 64:6,10,13,16 reception 45:25 present 41:21 34:20 37:4,22 prove 83:6 64:19,23 recess 36:7 58:17 42:18 43:14 90:5 38:19 80:6 82:20 provide 33:3 53:1 raise 76:14 61:17 91:14 presentation 55:4 82:21 83:4 84:14 pulled 79:22 raising 87:8 recognize 17:1 president 8:2,5,9 92:16 94:3,6,9 purchase 30:11 ranged 26:25 27:13 48:21 35:16 44:24 97:24 98:3,5,7 33:3 reach 30:9 recollection 24:16 pressure 83:11 products 11:23 purchased 38:12 reached 31:12 25:14 37:15 53:4 pretty 14:13 22:2 12:8 14:1,4,8,25 38:16 76:13 read 11:17 17:14 record 6:8 7:9 23:13 24:21 69:23 70:1 72:12 purpose 36:19 17:18 23:22 25:19 25:19 30:1 36:3,5 previous 62:8 68:1 92:2 93:3 76:19 26:15 29:10 30:2 36:9,13 58:12,15 70:16 78:20 82:3 professional 48:2,3 purposes 4:7 49:18,20 67:24 58:19 61:13,15,19 84:24 48:4,7,11 pursue 33:2 60:20 75:16 82:14 84:22 63:17 72:4,6,8 previously 39:6 program 19:4 pursuing 33:21 reading 4:9 74:22,24 75:1 62:12 22:25 23:1 24:12 39:16 54:21 60:25 reads 39:20 51:12 85:11 91:12,16 primary 13:12 34:15 38:8,10,11 77:4 85:12 66:7 68:1 70:16 Red 50:15 principals 9:15 40:8 47:21 49:9 pursuit 54:4 78:20 82:3,15 redneck 90:18 30:8,20 71:16 72:14,25 put 29:19 67:17 84:24 reduced 83:15 prior 10:25 15:10 73:4,11 77:16 79:3 80:10 91:2 ready 91:10 refer 86:3 20:7,9,10,18 37:1 81:4,16 95:12 p.m 1:12 real 50:15 66:13 referred 74:9,14 57:10 65:12 66:7 programs 22:25 realized 77:13 90:17 82:15 41:2 70:4 71:9 Q Really 63:9 referring 27:18 probably 11:6,14 81:6 qualifications 9:13 reason 6:11 16:5 38:14 51:18 62:7 13:11 15:10 33:20 project 12:23 24:8 11:4 82:9 24:22 27:23 30:24 75:15,22 76:20,23 41:11 47:20 51:8 24:13 34:4,9 qualified 85:1 35:18 45:22 84:12 reflect 48:24 50:1 54:15 74:2 81:19 projects 32:19 34:8 quality 80:17,19 95:18 reflected 56:1,15 85:14 86:8,16 37:4 81:22 Reasonable 48:9 refresh 24:15 25:13 87:25 promised 31:24 question 4:15 29:1 reasonably 12:14 53:3 88:18 problem 61:11 84:7 29:5 31:3,4 39:4 27:16 85:23 refused 19:17 87:19 properties 7:20 41:22 43:25 46:12 rebuffed 30:12 45:18 78:12,17 problems 59:21 68:6 46:13,14 49:6 recall 16:14 20:5,6 79:3 83:17 Procedure 4:7 property 10:9 60:6 63:8,9 65:24 20:11 21:23 29:13 refusing 18:4 process 15:3 56:23 66:20 66:7 68:1 70:10 34:25 36:23 40:8 regard 90:10 78:5,9 91:25 proposal 39:6 70:13,16,22 71:13 41:3 42:8,21 regarded 90:21 93:24 94:4 96:17 48:13,15,25 49:3 74:15 75:20 78:19 43:15,20,21 44:5 regarding 21:24 processes 11:23 49:6,7,11 50:2,2 78:20 82:2,3,12 44:12,13,17 46:2 45:5 58:25 59:19 12:8 14:1,4,8,25 50:18,23 51:4,21 82:14,15 84:22,24 46:18,19 47:18 reinsurance 27:2 procure 19:22 52:1,10,18 53:6 85:2,17 88:11,13 50:8 59:12,14,18 27:15,18 procurement 18:1 53:16,20 54:9,23 92:25 59:25 60:3,7 related 12:8 14:1 18:7,12 19:19 55:1 58:23 71:19 questions 11:19 62:12,21,23,25 47:20 50:24 99:15 55:13 93:2,10,16,25 63:14 66:5 74:9 63:4,5 87:9 88:17 relates 39:5 produced 7:2,4 94:1,8,12 91:4 97:3,5,11 88:21 89:17 90:9 relationship 7:23 25:10 proposals 26:24,25 quick 35:22 96:20 8:12 39:22,23 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES DC 1-800-441-3376 MD 1-800-539-6398 VA 1-800-752-8979 Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 37 of 52 Robert G. Jones Page 10 47:25 48:3,5,8 return 46:11 33:13 53:15,20 seller/servicers signal 22:9 55:17 56:21 57:19 review 87:7 Ross 90:10 38:13,15 signed 26:4 78:3 remarks 43:22 reviews 39:3 62:4 rule 42:10 send 14:19 significant 33:4 44:3 47:16 60:1 re-call 91:9 Rules 4:6 sent 37:24 73:23 signing 4:10 63:2 Rhoda 2:19 23:19 Rumsey 9:15 10:19 91:20 similar 88:23 remember 33:23 43:1,3,6 47:1,3,13 11:8 64:15 66:11 sentence 17:14 simple 26:20 27:8 41:6 42:11 45:15 55:7 75:23 76:6 49:21 50:6 51:12 94:12,12 79:14 90:14 Richard 1:25 5:17 Rumsey's 77:3 51:16 sitting 52:13 59:7 REO 66:13,14 13:14 44:19 45:10 sentences 17:19 small 67:16 81:3,3 repeat 27:6 41:22 45:13,16,17 46:8 S 40:1 81:6 43:25 63:25 65:23 55:25 56:1 68:13 S 4:1 sentiments 88:23 sold 69:5 66:2 70:23 88:13 78:2,16 79:1,17 Sarah 1:23 5:16 separate 28:15 sole 17:25 18:11 92:24 80:9 83:10 86:20 save 4:14 29:5 39:22 40:9 55:12 repeated 78:19 90:10 94:17 Savings 15:24 79:6 40:10 solely 11:24 12:7 reported 2:8 43:4 right 74:7 75:9 81:1 September 55:6 solely-owned 96:24 68:25 99:10 79:19 84:16 92:16 saw 45:24 47:6,7 74:3 somewhat 60:16 reporter 2:10 4:21 97:6 81:22 serious 77:15 sorry 48:6 59:20 5:9,25 63:19 64:5 risk 12:3 18:8,19 saying 25:12 65:21 serve 18:5 19:17 63:20 86:14 97:14 66:2,6,7 67:24 18:21 19:1,7,9 says 79:7 93:16 services 7:6,12,16 sort 74:8 84:3 68:1 70:16 78:20 22:15,18,21,22 school 27:1,14 7:17,23,25 8:2,5 88:18 82:3,15 84:24 23:3,6,8 24:17 schools 34:16 8:12,15,20,23 9:2 sought 4:18 99:5,23 25:3 27:4,19 28:5 Schwartz 79:6 9:6 17:7 23:5 South 11:13,15 REPORTER'S 28:12,20,24 29:4 scope 26:18 25:2 28:3 29:3 speak 45:18 59:23 99:1 31:7,16 32:10,19 Scottsdale 15:13,13 30:7,15 31:15,23 69:6 Reporting 5:10 34:24 35:3,7 screen 5:6 32:10,13 35:6 speaking 62:12 reports 85:21,25 36:16,21 37:5 sealing 4:11 43:17 53:13,15 97:14 98:2 86:4 38:20 39:7 40:17 second 15:22 30:2 97:24 98:6,9 specialist 5:8 representative 7:11 41:18,25 42:6,23 51:11,12 68:20 Servicing 49:9 specific 42:8,11,12 represented 12:11 43:12,18,23 44:3 71:25 90:25 set 66:20 95:20 42:22 50:19,23 representing 5:19 44:15 45:5 46:16 secondary 65:20 99:9 52:2,19 56:9 5:23 7:10 53:21 46:23 49:21,24 66:19 69:24 71:1 Seth 2:2 5:19 97:16 83:15 request 92:15 53:2,7,19,22 54:1 79:7 setup 23:12 specifically 4:10,12 requested 33:6 54:2 60:4 62:14 seconds 91:7 seven 16:3 79:1 92:9,18 reserved 4:17 67:9 71:5,6 secure 91:21 shareholders 64:22 spent 77:23 78:7 respect 11:5 24:2 risks 49:8 secured 26:23 sheet 15:15 37:24 split 24:10 26:7,13 responding 39:18 risk-based 39:11 27:11 shorthand 28:5 36:21 response 26:16,19 61:4,5 68:24 secure-type 67:6 99:11 spoke 21:14 89:16 49:5 RMS 23:25 24:1,3 securities 12:1 13:9 shortly 21:18 29:16 spoken 21:20 responses 28:2 24:5,8,9,13,14 67:18 show 16:19 23:15 Stafford 1:10 49:5 28:4,4 30:10,15 see 66:1 87:19 25:14 29:22 38:21 stages 65:17 responsible 35:20 33:18 41:20 49:22 89:10 48:16 stand 95:6 53:25 60:4 seek 65:1 sic 13:8 standards 69:14 responsive 6:20 Robert 1:8 2:4,22 seeking 49:22 side 9:17,21 10:12 standing 41:8 responsiveness 3:6 5:3 6:3,9 seen 25:11 55:23 14:14 57:25 80:22 stands 18:17 4:16 role 14:7 24:12 sell 69:10 sign 83:12,13 start 9:24 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES DC 1-800-441-3376 MD 1-800-539-6398 VA 1-800-752-8979 Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 38 of 52 Robert G. Jones Page 11 started 7:8 10:13 structuring 78:1 47:21 48:12 55:21,22 56:11 told 60:17 62:22 40:14 79:16,17 subject 67:4 talks 50:6 57:1 58:1 60:24 top 38:24 39:17,19 starting 17:15,21 submitting 51:21 tanked 66:21 61:9 67:25 68:20 touch 42:15 25:18 subordinates 79:4 tapes 72:2 69:22 74:8,12,15 touched 58:24 state 2:10 4:22 6:7 subpoena 6:15,20 technical 59:21 77:21 81:2 85:14 tranche 19:1,7 10:3,6 99:5,23 subsequent 55:20 61:11 86:1,16 87:23 27:19 28:12 33:21 stated 83:1 subsidiary 15:12 technically 61:11 88:3 89:15 93:7 34:2 53:2 statement 7:9 12:7 substantial 78:7 telephone 1:14 93:20 96:22 97:9 tranches 19:10 20:13 24:23 27:17 success 19:14 63:12 87:6,9 thinking 42:25 transaction 12:1,9 30:18 31:14 sued 77:4 83:22,23 tell 7:5 8:4,17,18 56:11 59:5 96:21 14:2 16:8 36:24 statements 44:14 suggested 88:7 9:7,12,19 10:7,21 third 23:23 49:19 37:2,8,11,17,19 63:6 suit 20:8,14 11:14 13:1 16:24 third-party 12:4 37:21 49:10 58:1 States 1:1 12:1 Suite 1:16 18:15 22:18 38:9 thought 45:23 76:4 67:15 69:3 78:13 stay 79:2,2 suitor 76:14,15 39:25 41:9 43:16 85:5 90:2 78:18 79:3,4,9,19 stayed 10:11 summer 86:23,24 47:2 51:15,25 three 12:18 29:17 80:8,25 step 8:8 91:7 88:19,22 53:14 54:25 85:10 39:16 49:23 50:6 transactions 9:2 Stephen 3:2 48:19 supervision 99:12 95:9 50:13,21,24 51:2 15:19 33:20 34:23 stepped 35:16 supply 76:23 ten 15:23 77:23 51:22,23 52:20 35:1 36:15 37:9 Stiegman 2:7 5:7 supposed 31:19 ten-page 56:2 53:21,24 85:19 69:20 72:25 80:3 stipulated 4:3 sure 17:17 23:13 term 15:15 21:5 91:4 93:23 82:23 88:2 89:25 stockholder 7:24 26:3,12 27:7 31:3 37:24 95:3 thrift 19:15 68:25 transcribed 99:11 8:13 34:17 35:25 47:11 terminated 35:19 thrifts 67:10,16 transcript 99:13 stockholders 96:23 48:15 58:3 59:5 terms 84:4,6 96:21 69:9 transfer 12:2 stopping 79:9 61:13 85:20,23 test 50:10 tied 31:22 transparent 97:2 strange 45:23 96:20 testified 6:5 37:7 till 97:7 treat 39:21 strategies 22:15,19 surplus 11:11 37:18 55:10 59:17 time 4:17 5:5 8:1 treated 48:9 23:7 24:17 25:4 14:20 29:9,10 59:24 60:2 62:11 13:5 15:2 16:10 tried 22:10 82:22 27:5 28:5,21 29:4 surprise 87:20 testify 6:12 99:8,8 17:24 19:13 20:1 triple 81:11 93:17 31:16 32:11,20 swear 6:1 testimony 2:21 20:2,22,25 21:14 triple-A-rated 71:7 40:17 42:1 45:6 sworn 6:4 20:12 6:16 25:16 55:15 22:13 25:22 26:2 93:17 46:16,24 53:7,20 99:7 62:8 82:25 90:10 29:19 32:6 37:9 trouble 59:21 60:5 61:1 62:14 95:4 97:2 99:10 38:6 39:9,15 77:15 Strategists 23:9 T thank 18:9 46:10 41:11,12 44:24 true 21:2 24:21 31:7 34:24 35:4,8 T 4:1,1 62:10 97:1,19 49:16 51:14 54:14 63:18 64:3,12,15 37:6 39:7 42:7,24 table 28:13 thereof 4:18 55:5,21 56:24 64:18,21,25 71:23 43:13,18,23 44:4 take 35:22 39:2 thing 16:25 59:4 60:22 61:8 77:13 83:7 84:15 44:16 61:10 62:2,20 things 22:2 97:22 61:10 65:18 66:17 86:22 92:14 99:12 strategized 86:20 taken 1:9 4:6 20:17 think 11:13 12:24 70:24 78:10,10 truth 99:8 strategy 76:10 36:17 41:4 15:10 23:2,3 80:22 92:20 93:1 truthful 97:2 Street 1:10,16,23 talk 22:5 46:22 24:19,20 27:17,21 93:9 try 59:23 95:8 2:3 5:4 talked 6:24 29:2 28:10 29:10 31:13 times 22:10 trying 21:19 32:6 strictly 38:14 34:10,12 37:1,15 32:5 33:9 40:2,10 timing 37:7 41:6 45:11 47:19 strike 44:6 46:21 39:21 41:17 44:17 45:11 46:1 today 6:12 49:1 67:4 69:10 76:4,9 51:24 53:4 talking 13:24 20:6 46:6,12 51:1,17 52:13 58:23 59:7 88:17 89:8 96:18 structure 45:1 28:20 39:9 40:3 54:10,13 55:2,9 59:14,25 97:3 turn 17:10 49:19 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES DC 1-800-441-3376 MD 1-800-539-6398 VA 1-800-752-8979 Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 39 of 52 Robert G. Jones Page 12 51:10 82:22 33:6 96:4 way 24:24 99:17 54:16,19,20 55:3 50:22 79:16,17 turned 45:17 ventures 24:4 ways 58:9 55:17,25 56:7,14 80:18 94:15 98:4 tweak 40:5 verbal 26:12 Wednesday 1:11 56:20 57:3,5 59:1 98:5,8 tweaking 83:10 verbals 26:6 week 47:8 59:3 60:2,4,8,17 wouldn't 16:5 two 10:17 17:19 VERSUS 1:5 went 19:11 26:10 60:21 62:13,16,19 67:19 72:11,23 39:17 55:23 59:11 vice 44:24 34:18 55:19 65:7 62:22 63:2,7 73:2 76:24 77:8 67:14 79:3 86:1 video 5:6,8 65:7 79:21 80:22 68:16 69:15 71:20 86:5 91:4,7 97:11 videographer 2:6 80:22 89:4 75:24,25 76:7,15 write 58:4,5 twofold 77:21 5:1,24 36:4,8 weren't 22:11 26:3 78:12 79:24 80:2 write-up 51:7 type 47:24 60:7 58:14,18 61:14,18 we'll 66:1 91:10 89:20 93:6,12 writing 52:3 61:2 69:3,17 72:1,3,7 74:21,25 we're 97:9 94:23 96:5 98:4 written 25:2,20 92:11 91:11,15 we've 28:20 29:2 window 54:15 wrote 39:20 75:9 videotape 5:2 36:6 48:12,25 50:3 wiped 8:24 81:18 U 36:10 58:16,20 58:24 71:25 75:4 Wisconsin 1:20 W228 1:16 U 4:1 61:16,20 72:5,9 93:20 Wiser 20:18,24 um 10:7 74:23 75:2 91:13 whatsoever 30:10 witness 4:5,24 6:1 X unable 30:9 91:17 31:12 7:15 35:24 39:3 X 2:14 unaware 86:6 Videotaped 1:8 white 64:6,10,11 62:4 63:22 66:8 understand 12:15 View 15:24,24 16:3 wholesale 76:17 68:22 70:9,21 Y 47:11 48:15 58:3 16:7 77:22,25 wholesaler 57:22 71:12 72:20 73:7 yeah 31:21 63:20 71:13 82:12 78:13,23,25 79:5 57:24 73:16 77:20 78:21 year 30:11 96:7 79:5,5,22 wife 22:11 81:14 82:1,4,11 years 9:25 10:23 understanding violating 77:8 Williams 1:3,18 82:16 84:19,25 11:2 12:18 93:23 18:11 28:25 55:8 void 67:11 69:3,19 2:19,23,25 5:23 86:15 87:2 88:10 yellow 56:3 56:4,4 57:14 volume 69:8 86:17 11:18,22,25 12:6 89:14 92:5 95:23 York 93:14 95:17 99:14 voluntary 97:25 13:21 15:3,18 99:6 you-all 87:15 88:5 understood 80:4,20 20:1,12,22 21:4,6 woman 95:7,14 97:6,7 81:3 W 21:9,10,15 23:9 woman-owned underwriting 49:9 wait 68:18,18 97:7 Z 23:12,18 24:23 95:11 77:25 waiting 54:16 Zurich 28:10 40:3 25:5,21,23 26:11 words 83:18 United 1:1 12:1 waived 4:10,13 40:4,10,11 51:22 26:15,17 28:1,8 work 16:5 32:18 upside-down 22:2 walking 45:16,25 52:3,4,6 54:10,11 28:24 29:7,24 33:8 34:19,21 urban 68:12 want 7:9 40:13 81:16 30:25 31:8,20,24 54:7 78:12,17 use 31:11 45:22 46:11 49:23 32:8,14,19 33:1 80:4,8,17,19 $ utilizing 11:23 50:9 77:4 97:1,21 33:15,18 34:9,23 81:10,22 84:23 $10,000 36:17 U.S 52:3 wanted 36:13 48:14 37:5,12,23 38:25 worked 10:3,6 67:13 39:8 40:16,18,24 14:10 25:24 32:21 0 V wanting 67:12 41:5,10,16,20,20 32:22 33:11 37:5 007232 74:8,20 vague 70:8,15 Washington 1:17 41:25 42:3,6,14 37:12 58:8 73:12 vagueness 70:19 1:20,24 24:1 42:18,23 43:4,7 80:11 81:16 1 Van 1:16 13:5,11 42:16 90:7 43:12,13,18,23 working 10:14,24 1 2:17 3:6 16:20 various 18:25 19:9 wasn't 15:15 23:10 44:3,9,15 45:3,5,7 15:11,23 21:13 36:6 75:5 19:10 69:23 70:6 32:24 49:14 54:21 46:7,16,17,23,24 22:24 24:9,13 1:05CV01483 1:4 venture 26:18 86:11 47:4,7,17,25 49:5 26:24 27:12 29:20 10:05 36:6 31:17 32:12,15 water 35:25 52:25 53:11,18 34:4,5,8 37:23 10:13 36:10 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES DC 1-800-441-3376 MD 1-800-539-6398 VA 1-800-752-8979 Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 40 of 52 Robert G. Jones Page 13 11th 1:11 5:5 87:25 89:23 7th 74:3 11:13 58:20 20016-2892 1:20 70s 10:6 11:17 61:16 2002 89:23 91:20 70130 1:10 11:19 61:20 2003 90:7 7232 3:6 75:7 11:33 72:5 2004 2:22 25:17 7297 74:5 11:36 72:9 2005 8:10 9:8 7918 2:24 38:23 11:39 74:23 2006 86:24 87:23 11:40 75:2 88:20,22 89:5 8 12:06 91:13 2007 1:11 5:5 8002 23:21 12:13 91:17 21st 80:13 8002-8004 2:19 12:22 1:12 25 10:23 8004 23:21 15th 3:2 48:18 26 49:16 8015 48:19 16 11:21 8015-8017 3:2 1625 1:23 3 8017 48:20 49:20 19 9:8 3 1:9 2:19,21 6:9 8031 3:4 62:1 1966 10:5 23:18 25:15 52:22 84 17:15 1990s 10:15,16 72:9 74:23 75:2 1991 7:17 8:7 91:13,17 9 1992 9:10 65:2 30 2:22 25:17 9:16 1:11 5:6 80:12 3003 1:16 90s 11:14 1993 65:2 91:20 3900 1:20 93 9:10 15:9 65:9 1994 21:12 80:14 39401 2:4 80:12 80:14 93:5 94 15:9,10 65:9 1997 11:22 15:22 4 97 79:18 1998 37:14 74:3 4 2:23 29:23 9703 73:21 74:7 79:21,22 40-some-odd 80:24 98 15:23 29:19 1999 2:23 29:25 404 2:3 30:14 31:6 32:1 5 2 5 2:24 38:22 2 2:19 23:16 36:10 50/50 26:7,13 58:16,20 61:16,20 6 72:5 6 3:2 48:17 2nd 2:23 29:25 6230 61:24 30:14 31:5 32:1 6230-6232 3:4 20 10:23 25:18 6232 61:24 2000 33:23 80:12 63 17:12 87:25 64 51:8 20006-4001 1:24 643 1:10 5:4 20008 1:17 65 51:7 2001 2:19 3:2 16:17 6907 2:17 16:23 17:8 23:18 33:24 6936 17:12 41:13 48:18 49:6 49:7,12 55:5 7 58:23 60:19 80:15 7 3:4 61:23 62:6 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES DC 1-800-441-3376 MD 1-800-539-6398 VA 1-800-752-8979 Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 41 of 52 1 Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 42 of 52 Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 43 of 52 Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 44 of 52 Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 45 of 52 2 Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 46 of 52 Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 47 of 52 Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 48 of 52 3 Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 49 of 52 Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 50 of 52 Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 51 of 52 Case 1:05-cv-01483-JDB Document 33-10 Filed 06/21/2007 Page 52 of 52